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Persuasive Arguments

Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by Sue J Love, Nov 24, 2017.

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  1. The Lord Jesus led me to read Colossians 2 (vv. 1-7 NASB).

    We have been instructed in scripture to expect to be opposed, if we are truly following Jesus Christ with our lives. But, it isn’t just us who are being opposed, but it is the gospel of our salvation which is coming under fire, and from enormous opposition, too.

    For I want you to know how great a struggle I have on your behalf and for those who are at Laodicea, and for all those who have not personally seen my face, that their hearts may be encouraged, having been knit together in love, and attaining to all the wealth that comes from the full assurance of understanding, resulting in a true knowledge of God’s mystery, that is, Christ Himself, in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. I say this so that no one will delude you with persuasive argument.

    As a servant of the Lord, I also struggle in defense of the gospel and on behalf of all those who believe in Jesus Christ or who would yet believe in him. I am concerned, as well, that many are being persuaded to turn away from the truth, and by clever enchanters who are twisting the truth to their advantage, in order to gain followers after themselves, but not after Christ.

    I am concerned that so many people are being persuaded to accept a false grace gospel rather than the true gospel, and thus many are buying into a false hope of salvation and eternal life with God, based on half-truths or twisted truths, both of which are still lies. And, if they believe the lies rather than accept the truth, they are in danger of the fires of hell.

    What I mean by this is that many preachers and teachers today are telling people that they can be assured of heaven when they die by merely accepting Jesus’ forgiveness of their sins, i.e. by accepting his grace, and through a mere acknowledgment that Jesus exists or of what he did for us in dying on the cross for our sins, so that we could be delivered from the punishment of sin and have the hope of eternal life in heaven with God.

    Many of them are telling the people, too, that all they have to do is repeat some prayer after them, after which they congratulate them for having accepted Christ as their Savior, and for having secured heaven as their final resting place, which, they say, can never be taken away from them.

    For even though I am absent in body, nevertheless I am with you in spirit, rejoicing to see your good discipline and the stability of your faith in Christ.

    The truth of the matter is that Jesus died that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. He died that we might no longer live for ourselves, but for him who gave his life up for us. He died, too, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who walk (in lifestyle) no longer after the flesh, but according to the Spirit of God.

    Jesus said that if anyone would come after him, he must deny self, take up his cross daily (die daily to sin and self) and follow (obey) him. What this means is that repentance and obedience are part of the gospel message. Jesus said that, if we want to hold on to our old lives (of living for sin and self) we will lose them (for eternity), but if we lose our lives (die with Christ to sin) for his sake, then we will save our lives (for eternity) (Lu. 9:23-25).

    Paul reiterated these words of Jesus when he said that coming to faith in Jesus Christ means death to sin and living to righteousness. He said that Christ delivered us out of slavery (bondage, addiction) to sin, so that we would now be slaves of his righteousness. He said, too, that if we walk (in lifestyle) according to the flesh (sin), we will die (in our sins), but if by the Spirit we are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, we will live (with Christ for eternity). For, when we believe in Jesus, we are given new lives in Christ, created to be like God (in his likeness) in true righteousness and holiness (See: Rom. 6:1-23; Rom. 8:1-17; Eph. 4:17-24).

    Therefore as you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk in Him, having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

    So, the point of our salvation is not just so we can escape hell and have the promise of heaven when we leave this earth. We are also not forgiven our sins just on the basis of Jesus’ death on a cross for our sins, but on the basis of our faith in Jesus Christ, which involves both repentance and obedience. And, Jesus didn’t die just to forgive us our sins, but to deliver us out of slavery to sin. He didn’t die just to save us, but to transform us.

    So, on the basis of what Jesus did for us in becoming sin for us on that cross so that he put our sin to death, and in being resurrected from the dead, so that we can born again and live new lives in him, we should walk (conduct our lives) according to the Holy Spirit, and no longer according to our flesh.

    But, this shouldn’t be just because we have to, or because it is expected of us, but we should be so thankful that Jesus set us free that we want to live for him. We should be so thankful that he delivered us out of slavery to sin that we won’t want to walk in sin any longer. And, we should be so in love with God, with Jesus Christ, that we desire him above all else, and we want to obey him.

    For, when we are born again of the Spirit of God, he changes our hearts. We are turned from darkness to light and from the power of Satan to God so that we can receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in Jesus Christ. Thus, if we pray the prayer to receive Christ, or if we say we believe in Jesus, but nothing changes, i.e. our hearts are not truly turned from darkness to light, but we continue living just like we did before, then, according to scripture, we are not truly saved.

    Another thing to know here is that our salvation is not a one-time experience and then we can live however we want and that one day we go to heaven. We are saved (past), we are being saved (present) and we will be saved when Jesus Christ returns (future). Our eternal life is also guaranteed only on the basis of present tense belief, not on the basis of past belief. And, our walk in Christ is also critical to our assurance of eternal life with God (See: Lu. 9:23-25; Rom. 8:1-17; Gal. 5:19-21; 1 Jn. 1:5-9; Heb. 9:28).

    So, when people tell you that you can merely accept God’s grace or repeat some words in a prayer and that heaven is guaranteed you, but that you don’t have to turn from your sins or obey God, don’t believe them. They are trying to persuade you away from genuine faith in Christ Jesus, our Lord.

    That Man / An Original Work / May 23, 2013

    Based off John 3:22-36

    An argument between some men
    Erupted out of resentment.
    They came to John and said,
    “That man is baptizing everyone.
    They’re going to Him.”

    So, John replied, “A man can
    Only receive what is given him.
    You yourselves can testify that
    I said, ‘I am not the Christ.
    I’m sent before Him.’”

    The bride belongs to the bridegroom.
    His friends await and watch for Him.
    They are full of joy when they hear
    His voice speaking words to them.
    That now is our joy!

    Jesus, the One who comes from heav’n –
    He testifies of forgiveness.
    Yet, so many do not trust in
    His words, and do not repent.
    They will face judgment.

    The one who trusts in Jesus Christ
    Has certified that God is truth.
    Jesus Christ speaks the words of God.
    Those who put their faith in Him,
    Eternal life gain!

    Friday, November 24, 2017, 6:19 a.m. – Thank you, Jesus, for these words which you have spoken to my heart to day. I love you, and I praise you!
  2. #2 Lanolin, Nov 24, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2018
    Hmm I dont think certain evangelists ever say 'after you believe in Jesus, thats all there is too it' kind of thing but I think many evangelists dont actually tell the complete gospel, because they rush headlong and many dont have time...they treat the gospel like a political campaign to get people to 'make a decision for christ' and then dont follow through with the promises.

    People need to understand that Jesus has made a new covenant and a covenant means promises..on his part a promise of salvation and on our part if we stick with Him this will be assured. Its like being married, you dont just have a wedding and say I do and then dont stay together.

    Lol imagine going to a wedding and one says 'I do' and the other says 'I do, but actually I don't. What a farce that would be.
    Sent from a mobile device
    amadeus2 and Sue J Love like this.
  3. The sad reality is there are preachers who tell people that if they just accept God's grace they have salvation guaranteed no matter how they live from that point on. One of them is Max Lucado, a very popular Christian author. Cancelled Insurance?
  4. The false truths or half truths which people accept are extremely dangerous for unbelievers and for new converts. What I believe is needed is for all believers, which of course must include evangelists and pastors, is to emphasize the need for growth from day one in our walk with God to the last day we have.

    The notion of one repentance and all is well thereafter is dangerous even if one person who embraced it never sinned again [how likely is that?]. That would be dangerous because not everyone will lead such a careful perfect life. People are led to believe that they can get their Ticket early on and simply hold on to it until the end of their time and all will be well. They are not worried about the consequences of doing anything after that which would displease God. But what if a the person who definitely bought the wrong ticket never gave the matter further consideration?
  5. Absolutely! This is a grave situation with so many people believing a lie.
  6. Isn't the definition of repentance..."turn from", or, "change"?
    If there is no change in a man, the repentance was a lie to God.

    The folks NOT leading a "careful perfect life" are the unrepentant.
    And we know they are not written in the book of life.

    Perfection is the result of rebirth from Godly seed.
    It is possible.
  7. I won't disagree with this. I certainly believe that what God calls "perfect" is possible for believers with Holy Spirit working in the them. The problem is that people regularly quench the Holy Spirit hindering the work.

    The man Adam was born of God and yet in spite of that he sinned:

    "Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God." Luke 3:38

    To me the problem for every man, including the born again man, is that he still has his so-called "free will". He really only has two choices which are described in various places in the scripture:

    "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." Joshua 24:15

    The choices are: my way or God's Way. They may also be expressed as serving myself or serving God.

  8. Agreed, and there are some who actively fight against God, causing the holy way to be evil spoken of.

    But he wasn't ever "born again", after having been "immersed" into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection.

    Some use their "free-will" to serve only God.
    Those are the ones reborn of God's seed.

    I couldn't agree more.
  9. @At Peace

    If Adam and Eve had not sinned I do not believe there would have been a need to be "born again". The only need would have been for them to have eaten of the right in the garden: The Tree of Life.

    We need to be born again because we were effectively in the eyes of God born dead as were our carnal parents.

    "And another of his disciples said unto him, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father.
    But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead." Matt 8:21-22

    "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10
    Laura1557 likes this.

  10. 1Co 15:22 (KJV) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

    Indeed, Jesus is also called the last Adam by Paul in his first letter to the Corinthians.

    1Co 15:45 (KJV) And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
    amadeus2 likes this.

  11. I agree.

    I think "we" aren't dead in trespasses and sin till "we" commit a sin.
    Babies don't go to hell.

    Totally appropriate...for grown up, unregenerated, humans.
  12. I thank God for those true scriptures.
    Laura1557 likes this.
  13. #13 Lanolin, Nov 28, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 7, 2018
    Hmm was given some max lucado books for church library, will need to check the out..I dont think Ive read any but if hes constantly preaching half truths I may have to withdraw those books...

    Sue it might help if you do have a list of false preachers to be wary of..or you can PM me if you like.

    The only thing I can think of why Mr Lucado might emphasise grace is because he hasnt yet been delivered. Maybe in his walk something is actually holding him back and he needs to lean totally on God for it. He didnt actually say in that article that he was going go abuse the grace given to him and keep on sinning. That would be stupid. He was more explaining justification but just hadnt gone on to sanctification.

    But if you feel strongly on it then do call him up on it..just email him. I mean Ive done that when I read something a christian author wrote and didnt sit right in my spirit, maybe they left out an important point or glossed over a scripture. One time was being sent a devotional and there was a teaching that was a bit strange, I asked the author to explain what he wrote that and why. Then showed him a scripture he might have missed.

    I think as brothers and sisters in christ we can do that and edify one another. And hopefully God can show us where we may fall short, I wouldnt be so quick to accuse someone of teaching the wrong thing. If they ignore you then thats another thing but at least you have explained or warned them about it.

    Although having said that some teachers are so obvious they are going in the opposite direction that its probably not worth emailing them but if its just one thing and everything else they teach is biblical then I would go ahead and do it.
    Sent from a mobile device
  14. Check out Romans, brother. Babies don't go to Hell, but we are born dead in sin (verse 12). Sin just isn't imputed to us until we're aware of what it is: God doesn't hold babies accountable (verse 13).

    Ro 5:12 KJV Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
    Ro 5:13 KJV (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
    Ro 5:14 KJV Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
    Christ4Ever and amadeus2 like this.
  15. Two quotes from a post of mine in March of this year after watching Max Lucado on a TV in a hotel room talk about his "cancelled insurance."

    Firm in Faith

    If you read back carefully over what he said in "cancelled insurance" he parallels his car insurance policy to his life insurance policy with God, and when he talked about his car insurance, he basically said that he got insurance because he is a bad driver and one who regularly and willfully breaks the law, i.e. he has a lead foot. And, his idea of salvation appears to be merely that Jesus paid the debt for his sin so that he would no longer be charged guilty for his sin, but there is no sense of repentance, or of a change of heart or lifestyle present in what he said, only that Jesus took his penalty for his sin so now he is declared righteous forever, the indication being no matter how he lives from this point forward.
  16. Rom 5:12 says nothing about being "born dead in sin".
    How can we be charged with the sins of another man?
    We can't, but will be charged only for our own sins.

    "Death passed upon all men", not sin.
  17. "And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
    Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
    So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life." Gen 3:22-24

    Unable to get into the Garden and to eat of the Tree of Life, what man was able to obtain Life until Jesus came?

    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Rom 5:12

    Sin causes death, but when a baby is born to dead parents, is the baby not also dead? How can two dead people produce Life? Life comes today from Jesus alone:

    "The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

    The carnally born babies have no sin, until they sin on their own, but they also have no spiritual Life without Jesus.
    Laura1557 likes this.

  18. > Death passed upon all men because of Adam's sin; so we are guilty before God when we are (carnally) born. "Spiritually dead" is everyone's default position when they are born because it's the Holy Spirit in us that gives us spiritual life and because of Adam's sin, we're not born with the Holy Spirit in us.

    "The wages of sin is death" Romans 6:23 KJV

    "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:" Rom 5:12 KJV

    > The word "all" in the above verse means "all," not "some." Even if a baby is born to two saved parents, it is spiritually dead because it doesn't have the Holy Spirit.

    > a baby doesn't have the ability to understand that it's a sinner, and that Jesus' death paid for its sin, so how can it be born again?

    > a baby isn't a sinner because it sins; it sins because it's a sinner. No one has to teach a baby, as it grows in the first couple years of life, to do wrong. Its natural bent is toward sin.

    > because God is merciful, He doesn't hold those without understanding of their sin accountable for it. (Romans 5:13)

  19. "Eternal" life? No man.

    You will need to explain Enoch's condition relative to your thesis.
    He didn't sin, and he didn't die.
    Babies don't commit sin, so your point is...What is your point?
    Is it that babies are condemned even before they reach an age of reason?
    I hope not...

    The result of that line of thinking would be...that the children of the repentant don't need to be converted.

    "Eternal" life, for sure.

    Thanks be to God!

    I hope you are not arguing in favor of a need for infant baptism.
  20. "Guilty"?
    Of what?
    Being human?
    Death is passed on-not sin.

    Jesus didn't commit sin.
    That point is applicable to the ages before Christ...only.
    A baby doesn't require the Holy Ghost in order to be saved on judgement day.

    That is crazy talk..(if you'll forgive the vernacular).
    What sin can a baby...or the mentally deficient... commit?

    That flies in the face of James' words in James 1:14-15..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
    Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."
    You can't tempt a baby using it's lusts

    He is also a realist.

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