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Perfection and Good Intentions

Yes laura nobody learns things right away. I dont think God zaps us and then instant perfect christian. Things take time, I mean even Jesus fasted 40 days not just one day.

Paul had unlearn everything he thought he knew for 14 years before he got sent out on missions.

People that have attained one level in their walk cant say they have arrived, but they are further than they were before. As long as they are on track, rather than gone backwards, stuck or totally off the path, its ok. God can work on you. He is the potter, we are the clay.

Have you ever done pottery. Theres various stages to it. First its a lump, and then it has to be moulded. If its hard, it needs water...lots of water! Then it needs fire in the kiln. Then to cool off and sit for a bit. And then it needs to be glazed.

Okay, I agree with you completely in this post.

Now: does the same Bible principle not apply to Peter in Galatians 2? Peter also had to unlearn a bunch of stuff as he followed Jesus: before, during and after Jesus' time on earth as Man. Peter had to be moulded just as you've explained. The Bible shows Peter's consistent spiritual growth, but I submit that even he couldn't truthfully say he'd arrived till God took him Home.
 
What decides your actions?
Your flesh-body or your mind-spirit?
The condition of your freckled, lame. smelly body is inconsequential to God.
It's what your mind commands your body to do that will be judged on the last day.

"Progressive sanctification" denies the reality of rebirth.

Picking, choosing and twisting scripture as you appear to do in some posts denies the truth of the Bible.

I'll stick with my Bible for sound doctrine, thanks.
 
Picking, choosing and twisting scripture as you appear to do in some posts denies the truth of the Bible.

I'll stick with my Bible for sound doctrine, thanks.
Let's pick out one scripture I have "twisted", and we can discuss it.

My goal for every post is to make men realize that they CAN live without sin.
Do you disagree with my goal?
 
My goal for every post is to make men realize that they CAN live without sin.
Do you disagree with my goal?

Greetings @At Peace ,
That's just it, through Christ one can learn through Spiritual Growth to sin less and less.

Romans 6:14
for sin over you shall not have lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace.

This tells us that With our new beings as born again believers through what Christ has done and given us, we Now can grow stronger Spiritually and overcome sin.

This is a process through Spiritual Growth in Christ and does not simply manifest in one's life just because it is Written and Provided .

Merry Christmas
Blessings
W4F
 
Okay, I agree with you completely in this post.

Now: does the same Bible principle not apply to Peter in Galatians 2? Peter also had to unlearn a bunch of stuff as he followed Jesus: before, during and after Jesus' time on earth as Man. Peter had to be moulded just as you've explained. The Bible shows Peter's consistent spiritual growth, but I submit that even he couldn't truthfully say he'd arrived till God took him Home.
In terms of the incident at antioch galatians 2 Peter conducted himself well.

I wouldnt say Peter arrived but he was on his way, Paul was actually exhorting him and encouraging him to do better. Think about it, put yourself in Peters shoes your brother Stephen had just been stoned to death, and James had been killed by King Herod with the sword, and you had just got out of prison on a charge of preaching to the gentiles, of course he was going to be fearful of the Jews who didnt believe in Jesus and thought he was trying to subvert everything.

Paul had a very direct way of sorting out this issue and went straight to Peter when it appeared the gospel was only being preached to the jews.

If you mature in the faith and you see someone who even if they are older than you, still at the infant stage, I think you need to be patient and realise growth doesnt just happen overnight. If they not bearing fruit several things could be going on, but Jesus says let the tree alone for a year, dig and and dung it (manure it) but if it STILL does not bare fruit you may need to cut it down.

Trees can grow back from stumps. Actually they may be more vigorous after a prune.

It could be just a few weeds theyve missed! If you see clearly enough to pull out a mote from someones eye than do so, but be careful you not ignoring your own. Nobody really likes correction or to be chastised, myself included, but sometimes its necessary.
 
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Greetings,

Can you tell us what this, (post #55), is relevant to?

referring to:

Hebrews 10:19-23
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh; and having an high priest over the house of God; let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for He is faithful that promised; )

Of course this must be read in complete context, meaning passages before and after.

I had thought it speaks for itself in the light of what has been discussed in this thread and therefore is relevant to all that is being presented as our present and ongoing position in Christ Jesus the Lord by grace.

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh
Such boldness is no trifling matter but speaks very clearly to those who know the forgiveness of God in Christ.
and having an high priest over the house of God
No mere man or fill in who needed also himself sacrifice to atone
let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Again, we see the confidence in action here, not in ourselves but in Him Who is both that High Priest and Sacrifice
let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for He is faithful that promised; )
Having therefore Boldness, don't throw it away because our hope is in Him Who has promised, therefore have boldness and confidence in Him, for He is Faithful; look unto Him, not othersand not ourselves for His Salvation and His Sanctification and His Pefection and His Resurrection and Life.

As a young Christian, these word in Sxcripture spoke clearly volumesto me and was a blessed fact of His Love towards me who had been given by grace alone the Spirit of adoption and when I consider in Revelation where it talks about remebering/not forgetting our first Love, I am reminded again and agian to hold fast o these promises to me and to not cling to any other word or teaching that proceeds out of the heart or mind or mouth or pen of man.

Is this what you meant by relevance?

Also, please note the use of the word, 'let', here twice used (see the Scripture referred to in this post) is for us to determine as if a judicial court decision, not merely let it flow and let is happen. I don't think the writer of Hebrews (if it is Scripture, it is God) was merely making a fun choice for something to do... eg, let us go outside and plat this afternoon, children. It is a definite 'go this way' and as with all things from God, it has a very sound and direct purpose, for our good. Let us + do it!

to finish and to help all to understand the context, here is the full chapter 10. For even better context, get a Bible and read all of Hebrews and then the whole New Testament... and even go one step further and listen to it. (audio bibles are available online if you don't already have on and/or you don't have access to anyone reading it to you)


Bless you ....><>

Don't skimp this (especially before responding, please)
Hebrews 10
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,

This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;

And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.

Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And having an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised; ) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.
 
I find most of the mature people in there faith very humble and they would never call themselves mature in there faith. I find people who constantly argue for the sake of being correct over the truth very blind and not mature in there faith at all. I find people who think they are sinless still in the kitty pool of faith, mature Christians know they are sinners and need a savior, they know they are not worthy of the Grace that God grants us once born again, no man is ever worthy of the grace God grants us. TO think otherwise is prideful. I know I have come a long way but have a much longer way to go.
 
...And such were some of you:
but ye are washed,
but ye are sanctified,
but ye are justified
in the name of the Lord Jesus,
and by the Spirit of our God.

1Corinthian 6:11
 
I dont know about a big term like 'progressive sanctification' Laura but certainly as we grow to love the Lord more and more we walk more in His ways our old sinful ways have no power over us.

It may be that way for you...but other christians experience this new life differently. We repent, are baptised, the old man is buried (crucified with christ) sins are forgiven and the spirit is born in us. Some of is undergo deliverance from evil and demons are cast out that had strongholds. In this we can claim to be set free. Then we walk in our new life obeying the Lord in everything He shows us.

If you are delievered from the root cause of your swearing or anger..it may be a spririt of profanity, its not a matter of controlling your tongue not to do something its yielding your tongue to God. I suspect anger is still a problem for you..the symptoms of swearing may be not there but it might manifest in other ways?

This is just a guess I dont mean anything against you but if you repent of being angry and ask for the spiritual fruit of peace or temperance you wont have to catch yourself and be frustrated anymore..it will no longer be an issue. Salvation does mean we able and ready to obey him but also that we are delivered from evil. Because Jesus overcomes, and destroys satans power we can too.

When i think of elders who are mature...they are saints, they dont ever think of sinning. They dont seem to be prideful at all just joyful! They are peaceful and loving, and they dont constantly go on about sin...they dont do it anymore because theyve been set free.

Its sad to see christians struggle when they dont have to..cos Jesus has won the victory. Not to say we dont go through any hardships we do! But we can rejoice through it.

Paul said he learned the secret to being content...he knew the peace that passeth all understanding.

Maybe it has do with doctrines people have learned and so they stick with something that seems to explain it! While perhaps missing out on something essential that God has for them? I'm not sure why this should be but if the truth sets you free you are free indeed!
 
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@Lanolin Reading your post I have a question for you. It seems to me that you think once we become born again we are worthy of salvation and deserve it. Would that be a correct interpretation of what you think??
 
@Lanolin Reading your post I have a question for you. It seems to me that you think once we become born again we are worthy of salvation and deserve it. Would that be a correct interpretation of what you think??
Um, no. Dont know where you get that from.

Jesus loves you enough to save you and tells you must be born again. He doesnt want you to perish!

maybe have a read of Romans 8:1-14?? KJV if you can?

I would post it all but cant really do copy and past functions on ipad.
People seem to think they just cant get past their sins no matter how hard they try. That Jesus death and reaurrection somehow isnt enough to keep them from sinning. But hasnt Jesus given us not a spirit of fear but a spirit of power, love and a sound mind?
 
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maybe have a read of Romans 8:1-14?? KJV if you can?

I would post it all but cant really do copy and past functions on ipad.
People seem to think they just cant get past their sins no matter how hard they try. That Jesus death and reaurrection somehow isnt enough to keep them from sinning. But hasnt Jesus given us not a spirit of fear but a spirit of power, love and a sound mind?


I agree but you left out the flesh we are still living in is sin nature,
 
I agree but you left out the flesh we are still living in is sin nature,
Dave, you seem to keep focusing on the flesh when Paul, Peter and all the apostles tell us weve been crucified with Christ and the flesh is dead. We reckon it dead, if you still walking in the flesh and following its lusts,
you arent walking in the spirit.

I dont know if youve been baptised what was your experience of it?

Another scripture passage for you to consider, btw its from Peter and we know what Peter was like BEFORE he was converted! 1 Peter 4: 1-6
 
tell us weve been crucified with Christ and the flesh is dead. We reckon it dead, if you still walking in the flesh and following its lusts,
you arent walking in the spirit.

It's one thing to know this and yet another to progress in this area where it will be more and more evident in one's life.

Christians take the scriptures you mentioned and add we have the mind of Christ and then believe everything they believe and do is correct. That's pure foolishness.

They claim I don't murder or I am no adulterer and so forth yet grieve the Holy Spirit and believe everything is good.

Learning to walk in the Spirit is a life long event and not something one just does.

Sure it can feel or seem like one is walking in the Spirit when they compare themselves to others or the so called Big Sins but in all truth when we compare our walk in the Spirit unto God's Written Word , one quickly learns they are not all that.....

THAT IS if they are willing to seek God and allow Him to show them where they lack. God won't pile a ton of stuff on you to change all at once. He will work in you one step at a time.
The problem is, most become wayside in many areas even unto God.

Nope, we must work at crucifying the flesh each and every day. One must also learn to accept that a lot of things they do and think it is in the Spirit is simply in the flesh.

Blessings
W4F
 
Greetings,

I am a bit puzzled to why, when someone says they believe and walk in the Spirit in the confidence the Lord has given them, that they are told they are basically wrong.

Perhaps someone can help me to understand how and why anyone would want to 'encourage' someone to doubt the Word?


Bless you ....><>
 
Greetings @At Peace ,
That's just it, through Christ one can learn through Spiritual Growth to sin less and less.

Romans 6:14
for sin over you shall not have lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace.

This tells us that With our new beings as born again believers through what Christ has done and given us, we Now can grow stronger Spiritually and overcome sin.

This is a process through Spiritual Growth in Christ and does not simply manifest in one's life just because it is Written and Provided .

Merry Christmas
Blessings
W4F
In truth, the "process" is repentance from sin and baptism into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection...to walk in newness of life.
Everything after that is growth in grace and knowledge.
But it starts from the base line of being born of God's seed...which cannot bring forth evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)
 
Greetings,
referring to:
Hebrews 10:19-23
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh; and having an high priest over the house of God; let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water. let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for He is faithful that promised; )
Of course this must be read in complete context, meaning passages before and after.

I had thought it speaks for itself in the light of what has been discussed in this thread and therefore is relevant to all that is being presented as our present and ongoing position in Christ Jesus the Lord by grace.
Thank you for the clarification.
Sometimes just posting a verse does nothing for me without a bit of guidance.
Thanks be to God, you seem to be aligning yourself with those who do believe life without sin is not only possible but commanded by God.

Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way, which He hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, His flesh
Such boldness is no trifling matter but speaks very clearly to those who know the forgiveness of God in Christ.
and having an high priest over the house of God
No mere man or fill in who needed also himself sacrifice to atone
let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
Again, we see the confidence in action here, not in ourselves but in Him Who is both that High Priest and Sacrifice
let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for He is faithful that promised; )
Having therefore Boldness, don't throw it away because our hope is in Him Who has promised, therefore have boldness and confidence in Him, for He is Faithful; look unto Him, not othersand not ourselves for His Salvation and His Sanctification and His Pefection and His Resurrection and Life.

As a young Christian, these word in Scripture spoke clearly volumes to me and was a blessed fact of His Love towards me who had been given by grace alone the Spirit of adoption and when I consider in Revelation where it talks about remembering/not forgetting our first Love, I am reminded again and agian to hold fast o these promises to me and to not cling to any other word or teaching that proceeds out of the heart or mind or mouth or pen of man.
Is this what you meant by relevance?
Absolutely.
And thanks again.
Thanks for the excellent exhortations.

"But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul."
 
I find most of the mature people in there faith very humble and they would never call themselves mature in there faith. I find people who constantly argue for the sake of being correct over the truth very blind and not mature in there faith at all. I find people who think they are sinless still in the kitty pool of faith, mature Christians know they are sinners and need a savior, they know they are not worthy of the Grace that God grants us once born again, no man is ever worthy of the grace God grants us. TO think otherwise is prideful. I know I have come a long way but have a much longer way to go.
No man reborn of God's seed can bring forth evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)
Rebellion against God is the opposite of faith in God.
 
It's one thing to know this and yet another to progress in this area where it will be more and more evident in one's life.

Christians take the scriptures you mentioned and add we have the mind of Christ and then believe everything they believe and do is correct. That's pure foolishness.
They claim I don't murder or I am no adulterer and so forth yet grieve the Holy Spirit and believe everything is good.
Learning to walk in the Spirit is a life long event and not something one just does.
Sure it can feel or seem like one is walking in the Spirit when they compare themselves to others or the so called Big Sins but in all truth when we compare our walk in the Spirit unto God's Written Word , one quickly learns they are not all that.....
THAT IS if they are willing to seek God and allow Him to show them where they lack. God won't pile a ton of stuff on you to change all at once. He will work in you one step at a time.
The problem is, most become wayside in many areas even unto God.

Nope, we must work at crucifying the flesh each and every day. One must also learn to accept that a lot of things they do and think it is in the Spirit is simply in the flesh.

Blessings
W4F
Your last line is in opposition to Romans 6:6..." Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin."
And also Gal.5:24..."And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."
Col 2:11-13 also seems to say that our crucifixion has already happened..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
I beg you to reconsider your POV.
 
In truth, the "process" is repentance from sin and baptism into Christ's death, burial, and resurrection...to walk in newness of life.
Everything after that is growth in grace and knowledge.
But it starts from the base line of being born of God's seed...which cannot bring forth evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)

Process is learning to walk in the Spirit.
Having the Seed of God in us does not make us so that we don't sin, but rather brings forth the desire to Please Him and gives us the strength and power to learn to overcome sin.
Blessings

No man reborn of God's seed can bring forth evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)
Rebellion against God is the opposite of faith in God.

Have you been short with anyone or insisted your way was best ?
That is exercising evil fruit.

Rebellion against God is Disobedience and Doubt and unbelief and fear is opposite of Faith.
Blessings

Your last line is in opposition to Romans 6:6..." K

We know that our old self was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin.

Nope, we must work at crucifying the flesh each and every day. One must also learn to accept that a lot of things they do and think it is in the Spirit is simply in the flesh.

Actually it lines up quite well.
Romans is not claiming that if we did then it does automatically.
Blessings

Col 2:11-13 also seems to say that our crucifixion has already happened..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;"
I beg you to reconsider your POV.


11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, …
13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God bmade alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,

It appears that you believe once you were born again you reached the place where you now walk in the spirit and have no more sin .

Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

This truly nullifies scriptures such as renewing the mind. What use would it be for us to be instructed to renew the mind if God already took care of this when we were born again?

The renewing of your mind is a life long event and does not automatically happen .

You have said you don't sin and never walk in the flesh.
By what standards to you judge this by?

Blessings
 
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