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Perfection and Good Intentions

Loyal
Obviously there are verses in the Bible that talk about being "perfect".

Matt 5:48; "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Rom 12:2; And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.

Php 3:15; Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;

Heb 12:23; to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,

Jas 1:4; And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.

Jas 3:2; For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.

....... so it's may be possible to become "perfect". Not on our own or through our own power of course.

But even if we become "perfect", that is no guarantee we will never stumble.

2 Pet 1:5; Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
2 Pet 1:6; and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
2 Pet 1:7; and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
2 Pet 1:8; For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Pet 1:9; For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
2 Pet 1:10; Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
2 Pet 1:11; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

Being perfect usually takes practice. It doesn't just magically happen "all at once" for most people.

There are quite a few verses about "practicing" righteousness.

1 Jn 2:29; If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1 Jn 3:7; Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
1 Jn 3:10; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

If we practice righteousness, we are righteous. If we don't...we aren't.
Again... we can't do this on our own. But you have to be careful with this. Some Christians have the
attitude that we aren't righteous anyway... and never can be.. so why try? Some quote Isaiah 64:6;
(which of course is the old covenant) and forget about the new covenant ( 1 Jn 3:7; 1 Jn 3:10; 2 Pet 1:10; )
These people are waiting for Jesus to "make" them perfect, while all along saying at the same time.. "it isn't possible". If you don't believe it's possible.. it isn't.

Jesus isn't looking for "dirty", unrighteous people to make up the church.

Eph 5:25; Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
Eph 5:26; so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
Eph 5:27; that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

Now while we might not become "perfect" instantly... we should be making progress in that direction.
That doesn't mean we aren't saved in the meantime. But it does mean we should be heading in that
direction.

The problem with the "Jesus does it 'ALL"" mindset, is that people sit around for years... decades...
still cursing, drinking, smoking, struggling pornography, addictions, exactly in the same place (or maybe
even in a worse place) than when they got saved 20 years ago. The Bible doesn't say Jesus does it all.
It says we need to "practice" righteousness.

No we can't do it on our own. We need the Spirit to help us. But there should be evidence that the
Spirit is indeed working in us. If we keep resisting the Spirit ( Acts 7:51; ) there is no guarantee
that just because we once had the Spirit we cannot fall away.

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

Some say these are simply the people who were never saved in the first place... what are you basing this on?
That's a real question... what are you basing that fact on? But it says here, these people have been made
"partakers of the Holy Spirit". Not merely observers of it... but partakers. I can't partake of a piece of cake if I don't actually eat some of it. Watching you eat it doesn't make me a partaker.

Also this passage says "again". You can't do something again, if you've never done it in the first place.
You can't get saved "again" if you were never saved in the first place.

If you're not perfect yet... don't feel alone... don't give up.

Php 3:12; Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.

but keep pressing on.
 
Loyal
Perfect is Also Perfected
If a man lived 1000 years, he would still not be perfected in Christ.
There is No End to the change and understanding of God's Word.
The more we learn, the more we learn that we don't know.
Blessings
FCJ
 
Active
Obviously there are verses in the Bible that talk about being "perfect".
Matt 5:48; "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Rom 12:2; And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, so that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect.
Php 3:15; Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;
Heb 12:23; to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Jas 1:4; And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.
Jas 3:2; For we all stumble in many ways. If anyone does not stumble in what he says, he is a perfect man, able to bridle the whole body as well.
....... so it's may be possible to become "perfect". Not on our own or through our own power of course.
AMEN, and thank you.

But even if we become "perfect", that is no guarantee we will never stumble.
If by "stumble" you mean sin, the "perfection" is nullified.

2 Pet 1:5; Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge,
2 Pet 1:6; and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
2 Pet 1:7; and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
2 Pet 1:8; For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Pet 1:9; For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
2 Pet 1:10; Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
2 Pet 1:11; for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.
Thank God for all the exhortations to remain on the narrow path.

Being perfect usually takes practice. It doesn't just magically happen "all at once" for most people.
Crucifying the flesh, and burying it, before being raised with Christ to walk in newness of life is pretty much as instant as your baptism.(Rom 6:3-7)
Being reborn of God's seed makes it impossible to bring forth evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)
How often did Jesus use parables about fig trees and grape vines?
Wickedness cannot come from the children of God's seed.

There are quite a few verses about "practicing" righteousness.
1 Jn 2:29; If you know that He is righteous, you know that everyone also who practices righteousness is born of Him.
1 Jn 3:7; Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;
1 Jn 3:10; By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.
If we practice righteousness, we are righteous. If we don't...we aren't.
AMEN.

Again... we can't do this on our own. But you have to be careful with this. Some Christians have the
attitude that we aren't righteous anyway... and never can be.. so why try? Some quote Isaiah 64:6;
(which of course is the old covenant) and forget about the new covenant ( 1 Jn 3:7; 1 Jn 3:10; 2 Pet 1:10; )
These people are waiting for Jesus to "make" them perfect, while all along saying at the same time.. "it isn't possible". If you don't believe it's possible.. it isn't.
Jesus isn't looking for "dirty", unrighteous people to make up the church.
Eph 5:25; Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her,
Eph 5:26; so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,
Eph 5:27; that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.
Isn't it marvelous how God keeps giving us guide lines to follow?

Now while we might not become "perfect" instantly... we should be making progress in that direction.
That doesn't mean we aren't saved in the meantime. But it does mean we should be heading in that
direction.
Your assertion implies that Jesus is coming back for a stained tattered bride.
That isn't the case.

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Some say these are simply the people who were never saved in the first place... what are you basing this on?
I base it on 1 John 3:8-10..."He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

That's a real question... what are you basing that fact on? But it says here, these people have been made
"partakers of the Holy Spirit". Not merely observers of it... but partakers. I can't partake of a piece of cake if I don't actually eat some of it. Watching you eat it doesn't make me a partaker.
Your version of the bible distorts what was really written..."For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."
It is impossible to renew them, but it IS possible for them to have a real repentance from sin, an initial turn from all wickedness and receive the Holy Ghost.
They had manifested that they were not reborn of God's seed, but an actual rebirth still awaits...if they will get serious about serving only one God.

Also this passage says "again". You can't do something again, if you've never done it in the first place.
You can't get saved "again" if you were never saved in the first place.
You are overlooking the "It is impossible" part.
The sin of the "fallen" means they were never partakers of anything given by God.
Repentance, rebirth, and the gift of the Holy Spirit are still available, but not to liars. (False repenters)

If you're not perfect yet... don't feel alone... don't give up.
Just turn on the TV, if you want to see the unregenerate.

Php 3:12; Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
but keep pressing on.
Paul illustrated what he had not yet had "perfected" in verse 21...his vile body.

Perfection is available to all who love God above all else, and their neighbor as themselves.
Thanks be to God for the exhortations to remain vigilant, and for scrips like..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Cor 10:13)
Look for the escapes!
 
Active
Perfect is Also Perfected
If a man lived 1000 years, he would still not be perfected in Christ.
There is No End to the change and understanding of God's Word.
The more we learn, the more we learn that we don't know.
Blessings
FCJ
I'm sorry to read of your surrender.
 
Active
Hmm @atpeace would you say there are some people that dont know what repentence involves?

I would say if you truly repent of something, why would you look back. Jesus says those that look back arent for for the kingdom. He was talking about taking the plough, if you look back, you wont be moving forward. Stumbling can be something else, you will be going forward but someone puts a block in your path. But, if you do stumble, you just pick yourself up again and watch out or go a better way God shows you. Helps if you put gospel shoes on too.

Sometimes the road can be rocky. Its not always easy. But if you keep trusting the Lord He says he will make your paths straight.. so that you wont stumble.

I think people should post positive encouraging scriptures rather than keep saying oh everyone is stumbling around and well you will probably sin again anyway. Thats not true. if you kept by the power of God He's not going to lead you anywhere that you going to sin. If Jesus told satan to get lost out of your life then why would you keep entertaining the idea the devil will come back.

People think well perfection isnt possible? Well I would say Jesus makes it possible! Are we saved to do good works or saved to do shoddy works?
 
Active
Sorry brothers both of you confusing me...

One says we can be perfect through Christ and the other says we cant be perfect even after 1000 years? Isnt that a contradiction?

Also I thought there was no change in Gods word. He is the same yestersay today and forever. There is no shadow of his turning.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
Sorry brothers both of you confusing me...

One says we can be perfect through Christ and the other says we cant be perfect even after 1000 years? Isnt that a contradiction?

Also I thought there was no change in Gods word. He is the same yestersay today and forever. There is no shadow of his turning.
We all should listen to and hear what the Word has to say, for in Him there is no contradition at all.
 
Moderator
Staff Member
@Wired 4 Fishen

Greetings,

Perfect is Also Perfected
If a man lived 1000 years, he would still not be perfected in Christ.
There is No End to the change and understanding of God's Word.
The more we learn, the more we learn that we don't know.
Blessings
FCJ
If a man lived 1000 years, he would still not be perfected in Christ. May I ask, what good then is faith? After all, in Whose eyes is perfection seen?

There is No End to the change and understanding of God's Word. I was rather convinced that He does not change. We might find more understanding but His Word is perfect, and some once said that repentance is something to do with change?

The more we learn, the more we learn that we don't know. I confess that I have often thought like this but I would like to suggest that changing our attention from ourselves in this matter also turns what you wrote to, The more we learn, the more we see more of our beloved Saviour! And, the more we see Him, the more we understand our position in Him, which He has no intention of changing.


Blessings to you, too ....><>
 
Active
this depends entirely on application.
If it is our practice to abide in the Vine, yes, though not of our doing but the Vine's.
If it is us practising to be perfect, no.
Well thats just a common saying I've heard.

Peter second letter tells us to be diligent so that we wont be unfruitful, of course nobody is going to boast they got to heaven by themselves. They wont even be let in the door if they boasted.
 
Active
What are you talking about?
You wrote that we couldn't be perfect in Christ, even after 1000 years.
That is a defeatist attitude, when our perfection is inherent at rebirth of Godly seed that cannot bear evil fruit.(1 John 3:9)
Thankfully, we can grow in grace and knowledge from that starting point of perfection.
Peter exhorted the folks in Jerusalem in what they were to do after hearing the gospel of Jesus' resurrection. (Acts 2:38)
Repent...turn from sin...become a non-sinner.
Get baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins...washed of all sin...clean enough for the residency of the Holy Ghost.
So what do we have?
A non-sinner who is perfectly clean and has the Spirit of God in them.
That sounds perfect to me.
 
Active
Hmm @atpeace would you say there are some people that dont know what repentence involves?

I would say if you truly repent of something, why would you look back. Jesus says those that look back arent for for the kingdom. He was talking about taking the plough, if you look back, you wont be moving forward. Stumbling can be something else, you will be going forward but someone puts a block in your path. But, if you do stumble, you just pick yourself up again and watch out or go a better way God shows you. Helps if you put gospel shoes on too.

Sometimes the road can be rocky. Its not always easy. But if you keep trusting the Lord He says he will make your paths straight.. so that you wont stumble.

I think people should post positive encouraging scriptures rather than keep saying oh everyone is stumbling around and well you will probably sin again anyway. Thats not true. if you kept by the power of God He's not going to lead you anywhere that you going to sin. If Jesus told satan to get lost out of your life then why would you keep entertaining the idea the devil will come back.

People think well perfection isnt possible? Well I would say Jesus makes it possible! Are we saved to do good works or saved to do shoddy works?
Yes, some folks don't realize that repenting of anything means you don't do it again...ever.
If you repent of smoking, you don't smoke anymore.
If you repent of theft, you don't ever steal again.
Thanks be to God for allowing us to "turn from" all sin at once, without having to experience every type of sin beforehand.
 
Active
Sorry brothers both of you confusing me...

One says we can be perfect through Christ and the other says we cant be perfect even after 1000 years? Isnt that a contradiction?

Also I thought there was no change in Gods word. He is the same yestersay today and forever. There is no shadow of his turning.
Yes, that is contradictory.
Which do you suppose God sanctions?
 
Loyal
this depends entirely on application.
If it is our practice to abide in the Vine, yes, though not of our doing but the Vine's.
If it is us practising to be perfect, no.
And yet the Bible says if we practice righteousness... we are righteous. ( 1 Jn 3:7; )
If says if we do NOT practice righteousness, we are of the devil.

It also says we are capable of being in the masters garden, watered and fertilized and pruned...
But still capable of bearing no fruit if we so choose not to. ( Luke 13:6-9; )
 
Loyal
@Br. Bear @At Peace

You both totally misunderstood what I have said.

Many years ago during Prayer the Father spoke to my heart. Not an audible voice but in my Spirit.

He said there is no end to what He can teach or show us in His Word.
He said if we lived a 1000 years we still could not obtain all there is in His Written Word.

Another words none of us will ever know it all or be totally perfected in the knowledge of Him while we are on this earth.

It's man that thinks he can or has.
Blessings
W4F
 
Loyal
The more we learn, the more we learn that we don't know. I confess that I have often thought like this but I would like to suggest that changing our attention from ourselves in this matter also turns what you wrote to, The more we learn, the more we see more of our beloved Saviour! And, the more we see Him, the more we understand our position in Him, which He has no intention of changing.
Greetings Brother @Br. Bear ,
Yes sir that is the goal to grow in Christ and understand who we are in Him.

However that is not what I was referring to. What I am referring to is that when we reach a new understanding or revelation or level in Christ and walk there awhile, we then learn that is not the end but the starting of a brand new climb to a deeper or higher level in Christ.

As we grow in Christ we should all be obtaining a deeper understanding of what we already thought we knew. God can and will show you more and more or give one a deeper understanding in the same Scriptures you thought you already understood.

I know who I am in Christ and I am stronger in this now then I was last year and will be stronger yet in this area the same time next year.
Why? Because I choose to allow Him to teach me and am willing to be willing to put forth what I am shown.

As always it a Blessing fellowshipping with you Brother.
Merry Christmas
W4F
 

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