Perfection and Good Intentions

[Dave M]

@Br. Bear @At Peace

You both totally misunderstood what I have said.

Many years ago during Prayer the Father spoke to my heart. Not an audible voice but in my Spirit.

He said there is no end to what He can teach or show us in His Word.
He said if we lived a 1000 years we still could not obtain all there is in His Written Word.

Another words none of us will ever know it all or be totally perfected in the knowledge of Him while we are on this earth.

It's man that thinks he can or has.
Blessings
W4F

I agree with this, it has something to do with maturity and constantly being sanctified if we were perfect would we not have our glorified bodies already??

example Paul is talking to saved people here yet they are far from perfect

Hebrews 5:12-14 ESV / 59 helpful votes
For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the basic principles of the oracles of God. You need milk, not solid food, for everyone who lives on milk is unskilled in the word of righteousness, since he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those who have their powers of discernment trained by constant practice to distinguish good from evil.

Work in progress, just because you are save you do not become all knowing all good it is a work in progress, until we receive our glorified bodies we are still a work in progress, look at all the different levels of maturity right here on JT

Ephesians 4:11-14
And he gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the shepherds and teachers, to equip the saints for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to mature manhood, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ, so that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro by the waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by human cunning, by craftiness in deceitful schemes.

Paul is talking to saved people here yet they are far from perfect they are infants in Christ, they have not matured yet

1 Corinthians 3:1-23
But I, brothers, could not address you as spiritual people, but as people of the flesh, as infants in Christ. I fed you with milk, not solid food, for you were not ready for it. And even now you are not yet ready, for you are still of the flesh. For while there is jealousy and strife among you, are you not of the flesh and behaving only in a human way? For when one says, “I follow Paul,” and another, “I follow Apollos,” are you not being merely human? What then is Apollos? What is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, as the Lord assigned to each.

 

[Br. Bear]

Paul is talking to saved people here yet they are far from perfect they are infants in Christ, they have not matured yet

yes. Interesting that all of 1Corinthians is to those same infants. Probably good idea we don't make too much meat out of the milk!


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings Brother @Br. Bear ,
Yes sir that is the goal to grow in Christ and understand who we are in Him.

However that is not what I was referring to. What I am referring to is that when we reach a new understanding or revelation or level in Christ and walk there awhile, we then learn that is not the end but the starting of a brand new climb to a deeper or higher level in Christ.

As we grow in Christ we should all be obtaining a deeper understanding of what we already thought we knew. God can and will show you more and more or give one a deeper understanding in the same Scriptures you thought you already understood.

I know who I am in Christ and I am stronger in this now then I was last year and will be stronger yet in this area the same time next year.
Why? Because I choose to allow Him to teach me and am willing to be willing to put forth what I am shown.

As always it a Blessing fellowshipping with you Brother.
Merry Christmas
W4F

that's probably a better way to put it. I commented on your words not your thoughts.
Thanks for the reply,


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

And yet the Bible says if we practice righteousness... we are righteous. ( 1 Jn 3:7; )
If says if we do NOT practice righteousness, we are of the devil.

It also says we are capable of being in the masters garden, watered and fertilized and pruned...
But still capable of bearing no fruit if we so choose not to. ( Luke 13:6-9; )

Perhaps to be in the practice of righteousness could be likened to abiding in the Vine?
Interesting that the terminology used in horticulture is to yield when talking about the fruit/harvest of a crop/plant. Perhaps that is what we need to do? Yield ourselves as instruments of Righteousness for His names sake and glory?

He makes a way for all, some yield to Him others don't. Without him, we can do nothing yet if we abide, we bear much fruit. John 15:5
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in Me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without Me ye can do nothing.

I see (I think) that you are offering encouragement for those who otherwise might feel hopeless or doubtful of their position in Christ due to things they do or don't do (correct me please if i am wrong) and encouragement is both good and needful.
My caution is that the heart is deceitful and so easily a man can yield to temptation and regret it, but less and less the more and more he does so BUT if He would yield to the everlasting love of the Father in Jesus Christ the Lord, he would be walking in the Light.
This you know, I am sure.
I am not professing my own perfection in any matter but I do like and appreciate being encouraged with what the Word has said to us. A sure foundation and beacon in this tempestuous and dark world.


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

@Br. Bear @At Peace

You both totally misunderstood what I have said.

Many years ago during Prayer the Father spoke to my heart. Not an audible voice but in my Spirit.

He said there is no end to what He can teach or show us in His Word.
He said if we lived a 1000 years we still could not obtain all there is in His Written Word.

Another words none of us will ever know it all or be totally perfected in the knowledge of Him while we are on this earth.

It's man that thinks he can or has.
Blessings
W4F

I can not speak for our Brother, but I suppose i was helping to clarify what you had said and from what you replied with I don't think i was too far off, or was i ?

Thanks again,


Bless you ....><>

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

I can not speak for our Brother, but I suppose i was helping to clarify what you had said and from what you replied with I don't think i was too far off, or was i ?

Thanks again,


Bless you ....><>

It's the way of a forum. We think we said something in a easy to understand way but one never knows until others respond.
Thank you Brother!!
Blessings
W4F

 

[Lanolin]

Greetings Brother @Br. Bear ,
Yes sir that is the goal to grow in Christ and understand who we are in Him.

However that is not what I was referring to. What I am referring to is that when we reach a new understanding or revelation or level in Christ and walk there awhile, we then learn that is not the end but the starting of a brand new climb to a deeper or higher level in Christ.

As we grow in Christ we should all be obtaining a deeper understanding of what we already thought we knew. God can and will show you more and more or give one a deeper understanding in the same Scriptures you thought you already understood.

I know who I am in Christ and I am stronger in this now then I was last year and will be stronger yet in this area the same time next year.
Why? Because I choose to allow Him to teach me and am willing to be willing to put forth what I am shown.

As always it a Blessing fellowshipping with you Brother.
Merry Christmas
W4F

I understand now.
Scripture come to mind...we see in a glass darkly, but we shall see him face to face. When the perfect is come, we will be in eternity.

I think everyone has a blind spot about themelves cos we cant see what God sees and knows, how can we in our mortal flesh. Which is why we must walk by faith and faith cant obviously see everything as this is what faith is, not knowing everything there is to know or seeing everything at once but trusting God knows and sees everything.

Thats not to say we cant be overcomers and walk in victory but I guess humble enough to admit we always still have more to learn. You might be perfect in one area of your life and have mastered it but totally rubbish at something else. Then God shows you another area to work on I suppose.

Job also comes to mind, he was righteous but his sin was that he had become self-righteous lol.
Thats why he repented with sack cloth and ashes and admitted he couldnt do what God did, like create the universe and make snow and behemoths etc.

 

[Born Again 2004]

If we practice righteousness, we are righteous. If we don't...we aren't.

Practice or not, if Jesus is not in you, you will never be righteous in God's eyes!

ome Christians have the
attitude that we aren't righteous anyway... and never can be.. so why try?

I am one of those Christians. We are not righteous but only the one inside you is. If he is not in you , you will never be the righteousness of God.

Jesus isn't looking for "dirty", unrighteous people to make up the church.

Your right in the sense that his church is the combination of all saved, Born Again, believing children of God! And Jesus is always looking for your "dirty / unrighteous people" to become the righteousness of God!

Now while we might not become "perfect" instantly... we should be making progress in that direction.

No , Born Again Christian is perfect, but with the Holy Spirit in you, you are always driven toward perfection. With Christ in you and you die physically, you are perfected instantly!

Heb 6:4; For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
Heb 6:5; and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
Some say these are simply the people who were never saved in the first place... what are you basing this on?

I an one of those. When you are truly saved, then you are saved. There is no such thing as going back and forth between being saved, not saved, saved...etc. The Hebrew verses simply saying there is no such thing as being saved again....that would require Christ to die again, much to his shame....He died once for all!

there is no guarantee
that just because we once had the Spirit we cannot fall away.

God / Jesus says he will never leave or forsake us, once in you, how do you fall away from a God like this?

/QUOTE]

Heb 6:6; and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.

That's a real question... what are you basing that fact on? But it says here, these people have been made"partakers of the Holy Spirit". Not merely observers of it... but partakers. I can't partake of a piece of cake if I don't actually eat some of it. Watching you eat it doesn't make me a partaker.[


That is it, Jesus died once and he is not going to die again for you to have the chance to become 'Born Again"! Once you are "Born Again" and come a partaker of the Holy Spirit, there is no going back!!!

 

[At Peace]

@Br. Bear @At Peace
You both totally misunderstood what I have said.
Many years ago during Prayer the Father spoke to my heart. Not an audible voice but in my Spirit.
He said there is no end to what He can teach or show us in His Word.
He said if we lived a 1000 years we still could not obtain all there is in His Written Word.
Another words none of us will ever know it all or be totally perfected in the knowledge of Him while we are on this earth.
It's man that thinks he can or has.
Blessings
W4F

You seem to be inferring that without tons of knowledge we can't remain free from sin.
That isn't true.
We all are equipt with a conscience given to us by God.
We all know that murder, thievery, adultery, etc are wrong.
We all have the power to refrain from sin.

 

[At Peace]

Practice or not, if Jesus is not in you, you will never be righteous in God's eyes!
I am one of those Christians. We are not righteous but only the one inside you is. If he is not in you , you will never be the righteousness of God.

Then you don't believe in rebirth.
Or, you don't believe that the blood of Christ can wash away all our past sins.

Your right in the sense that his church is the combination of all saved, Born Again, believing children of God! And Jesus is always looking for your "dirty / unrighteous people" to become the righteousness of God!

If they are "the righteousness of God", how can they NOT be righteous?

No , Born Again Christian is perfect, but with the Holy Spirit in you, you are always driven toward perfection. With Christ in you and you die physically, you are perfected instantly!

ALL born again Christians are perfect.
If you're not perfect, you are not reborn of Godly seed that cannot bear evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)

I an one of those. When you are truly saved, then you are saved. There is no such thing as going back and forth between being saved, not saved, saved...etc. The Hebrew verses simply saying there is no such thing as being saved again....that would require Christ to die again, much to his shame....He died once for all!

Salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement.

God / Jesus says he will never leave or forsake us, once in you, how do you fall away from a God like this?

If He is in us, we will continue to obey Him.
If you decide to follow after the lusts of the flesh, you have usurped the will of God.
You left Him.

That's a real question... what are you basing that fact on? But it says here, these people have been made"partakers of the Holy Spirit". Not merely observers of it... but partakers. I can't partake of a piece of cake if I don't actually eat some of it. Watching you eat it doesn't make me a partaker.

If they appeared to fall away, they manifest that they never were repentant, or partakers of the Holy Spirit.
You can lie about "partaking" of the cake, but if you are the one who loses weight...it is apparent you lied.

That is it, Jesus died once and he is not going to die again for you to have the chance to become 'Born Again"! Once you are "Born Again" and come a partaker of the Holy Spirit, there is no going back!!!

That is a fact.
Some can appear righteous for years, but the true intentions of the heart cannot be hidden from those actually in Christ.

 

[HisFollower]

[for me anyway] perfect means of full age or mature, and God's Word tells us how (yes of course not on our own, seeing that without Christ we can do nothing; and we can receive nothing, except it be given us from heaven): but God tells us by His Word how that full age, mature person is:

"But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil." (Hebrews 5:14)

By the way the "of full age" here is the same word "perfect" in (Matthew 5:48)

 

[Born Again 2004]

Then you don't believe in rebirth.
Or, you don't believe that the blood of Christ can wash away all our past sins.


If they are "the righteousness of God", how can they NOT be righteous?


ALL born again Christians are perfect.
If you're not perfect, you are not reborn of Godly seed that cannot bear evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)


Salvation won't be assured till after the final judgement.


If He is in us, we will continue to obey Him.
If you decide to follow after the lusts of the flesh, you have usurped the will of God.
You left Him.


If they appeared to fall away, they manifest that they never were repentant, or partakers of the Holy Spirit.
You can lie about "partaking" of the cake, but if you are the one who loses weight...it is apparent you lied.


That is a fact.
Some can appear righteous for years, but the true intentions of the heart cannot be hidden from those actually in Christ.

I apologize and mean no disrespect to you personally but I have no reply to such a onslaught on basic Christian Theology!

 

[Laura1557]

We all should listen to and hear what the Word has to say, for in Him there is no contradition at all.

Amen, and don't overthink it: just believe what the Bible says.

 

[Born Again 2004]

@At Peace I really have nothing against you personally but, as I feel, you are somewhat in bondage to untruth. I want to make sure you are not full of pride in your understanding or, are you really looking for some help in sorting things out? If it is the former, then may God Bless your future spiritual growth. I will use your two quotes in an attempt to enlighten you but, if my answers are distasteful, I will refrain from doing so again. and you can seek someone else to debate.

If they are "the righteousness of God", how can they NOT be righteous?

(Romans 3:21–22). Through our faith in Christ, the righteousness of God is given to us. This is called “imputed” righteousness. To impute something is to ascribe or attribute something to someone. When we place our faith in Christ, God ascribes the perfect righteousness of Christ (inside us) to our account so that we become perfect in His sight ( Christ Perfection not ours). “For our sake he made him [Jesus] to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

ALL born again Christians are perfect.
If you're not perfect, you are not reborn of Godly seed that cannot bear evil fruit. (1 John 3:9)

1 John 3:9 Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God.

The key word here is practice. With Christ in you, you now hate sin and no longer make a practice of it....do it on purpose. "So, they can't keep on sinning"......deliberately!!! You sin, I sin, we all sin but we don't make a practice of it and when we do mess up then: Romans 8:1. I like to look at it this way: God is perfect in righteousness and can not sin....A sin is anything God is not!

 

[Wired 4 Fishen]

You seem to be inferring that without tons of knowledge we can't remain free from sin.
That isn't true.
We all are equipt with a conscience given to us by God.
We all know that murder, thievery, adultery, etc are wrong.
We all have the power to refrain from sin.

My apologies brother but I have not said anything like that.

You name the big obvious sins but that's not even the half of what would be seen as sin stacked against God's Most Holy Word.

Now I ask of you a favor please.
From this point forward, if you are going to quote me and Correct me then Please at least acknowledge what I have really said and no more claiming I said this or that.

I sure will appreciate it brother.
Have a most wonderful night
Blessings
W4F

 

[At Peace]

[
(Romans 3:21–22). Through our faith in Christ, the righteousness of God is given to us. This is called “imputed” righteousness. To impute something is to ascribe or attribute something to someone. When we place our faith in Christ, God ascribes the perfect righteousness of Christ (inside us) to our account so that we become perfect in His sight ( Christ Perfection not ours). “For our sake he made him [Jesus] to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

.
With that in mind, those who are shown to be "unrighteous" have no faith in Christ.
God isn't going to lie, and say sinners are righteous.
If the sinner "turns from" sin, and has his past sins washed away by the blood of Christ, the ascribing of "righteousness" is true.

1 John 3:9

Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God.
The key word here is practice. With Christ in you, you now hate sin and no longer make a practice of it....do it on purpose. "So, they can't keep on sinning"......deliberately!!! You sin, I sin, we all sin but we don't make a practice of it and when we do mess up then: Romans 8:1. I like to look at it this way: God is perfect in righteousness and can not sin....A sin is anything God is not!

You are erroneously implying that grape vines will not "practice" bearing figs.
But sometimes...not willfully...they might.
Your version of scripture has opened a door of unceasing sin.

Those born of Godly seed CANNOT bear evil fruit.
Why?
Because His seed remains in us.

 

[At Peace]

My apologies brother but I have not said anything like that.

You name the big obvious sins but that's not even the half of what would be seen as sin stacked against God's Most Holy Word.

Now I ask of you a favor please.
From this point forward, if you are going to quote me and Correct me then Please at least acknowledge what I have really said and no more claiming I said this or that.

I sure will appreciate it brother.
Have a most wonderful night
Blessings
W4F

In post #3,you said..."If a man lived 1000 years, he would still not be perfected in Christ."
That is not correct, as all those reborn of God are perfect from the get-go.
We will of course continue to grow in grace and knowledge, but a lack of knowledge makes us no less perfect.

 

[Lanolin]

Hmm.

What do you mean by perfect.
Im sure in heaven, eternity, is perfect all the time and never sullied. The white robes never need to be laundered as there is nothing to dirty them. If you thinking of our place in heaven then yes that is perfect.

But are we living there now while still in our mortal bodies which will grow old and decay, well no. Our flesh is weak and we have infirmities. God even made us that way, so he could renew us.

In the spirit yes we are perfect. But in the flesh, no. Or at least not yet, born again are, in spirit, soul and body.

Of course if you heavenly minded you wont even be thinking of earthly fleshy things like having breakfast or going to the toilet. Unless there is a perfect way to do everything. Is there. Well show us or explain. If you never drop a crumb and never have to do any washing up would that be perfect? Never make mess, unless that mess is perfect anyway? Did Jesus, when he was cutting wood, just cut it perfectly the first time he ever did it? Did he never have to learn obedience?

 

[Born Again 2004]

.
With that in mind, those who are shown to be "unrighteous" have no faith in Christ.
God isn't going to lie, and say sinners are righteous.
If the sinner "turns from" sin, and has his past sins washed away by the blood of Christ, the ascribing of "righteousness" is true.


You are erroneously implying that grape vines will not "practice" bearing figs.
But sometimes...not willfully...they might.
Your version of scripture has opened a door of unceasing sin.

Those born of Godly seed CANNOT bear evil fruit.
Why?
Because His seed remains in us.

As I expected, Pride!

 

[Born Again 2004]

As I expected, Pride!

God bless your understanding and future spiritual growth!