once saved, always saved?

[Stan53]

I need more scriptures which back up that this is not correct. For example you are saved, and believe in lord your saviour, go to church, read the bible but carry on living a habitual homosexual lifestyle, sex out of wedlock, addiction to porn, drugs, alcohol, and just other sinful things that are forbidden.Are you still saved?

These are two different issues IMO.
First you get saved. You acquire a new spiritual nature and for the most part STOP you habitual sinful lifestyle. I can't see anyone doing what they should do as far as walking with Christ is concerned, and NOT change.
Having said that, OSAS is NOT supported in the scriptures and Heb 6:4-6 demonstrates that. Jesus made this abundantly clear in His own words in Matthew 10:22 and 24:13, we must endure, or as Luke writes in Heb 12:1"....let us run with endurance the race that is prescribed for us."

 

[james1523]

Hello James.

You offer a theology that does appear very flawed.

Agree James that the quote from Matthew 24 is considered in the context. But endurance concerns the life of faith,
a life lived in Christ. To endure in the belief in Jesus from the first day to the last day of our lives. Whether or not
endurance occurs in a tribulation period is irrelevant. James please read the following verses, none of the verses
quoted are in the context of the final tribulation.

Matthew 10
21 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; and children will rise up against parents and cause them to be put to death.
22 You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

2 Corinthians 6:4
but in everything commending ourselves as servants of God, in much endurance, in afflictions, in hardships, in distresses,

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

James 1:3
knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

James 1:4
And let endurance have its perfect result, so that you may be perfect and complete,

Hello DHC, the endurance of faith in this sense is to be able to accomplish everything God wants us to do, to endure the trials and tribulations and stand before the Son of Man. It is not endurance unto eternal salvation from hell, as if somehow our endurance is a requisite for salvation from hell. This is a works-based and human effort-based theology DHC, which I would expect to hear from someone who was of the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox persuasion. To your doctrine you may add keeping the sacraments, living a sinless life, and other merit-based requisites to your doctrine if you wish, but they are all from human-effort and not of the free gift of grace.

There will be no one who has failed to keep the faith until the end (in the sense of eternal salvation) because we have the firm promise of standing by faith to every believer which is by God and not our human efforts:
Rom 14:4 "... To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand."

Ps 37:24 "though he may stumble, he will not fall, for the LORD upholds him with his hand."

 

[james1523]

Hi James. Marriage was a gift of God and came to man before sin ever appeared to mar i. Marriage is certainly an excellent metaphor for the relationship that we may have with our Father, God uses it many times Himself throughout the scriptures, both old and new testaments. In the OT Israel was often accused of unfaithfulness and called a harlot, or an adulteress as a result. The nation was often in a position where she was in apostasy from truth, from her Maker, yet while this was true God would always forgive, was always willing to accept her back. He would constantly send prophets and messengers to remind Israel of their sin and of His willingness to forgive if they would but turn away from their sin and repent and accept Him back as her Husband. The book of Hosea is a wonderful metaphor for the whole relationship that Israel had with her God.
Apostasy is a state of divorce. It is a state of complete separation.Undesirable certainly, not God's will assuredly yet love both ways must allow for it if one of the partners in the relationship chooses to go his or her own way. Think of your own marriage. If for any reason your wife decides to leave you, what would be your reaction? Hold her against her will? Is that love?? Plead for her to change her mind? Yes indeed! Pray for her? Amen! Remind her of the happiness you had together? Yes! Do all you can to secure and cement your relationship with her before its too late? Absolutely!! And all these things God does and more if we should tend to stray and be unfaithful. But He will never hold us back against our will if we choose, as Israel did many times, to turn away from Him. Why? Simply because love does not, indeed cannot, force faithfulness.

Hello brakelite, the metaphor of husband and wife is typically used to represent Christ and the church, or God and Israel, not our individual relationship with God. But using this metaphor, it is absolutely correct that God divorced Israel, but He also brought her or will bring her back again. He did not cast her off completely. For this reason this is a flawed example of a person losing their eternal salvation. If you can prove that God rejected Israel for eternity, then I think your example has merit to disprove eternal security of salvation.

For our individual relationship with God the parent-child metaphor is more appropriate I would think. I agree that God does not force our faithfulness, He does not over-ride our free will, but He does give us the power to stand, He does hold us by the hand and pick us up (as a father would for a child who falls in the mud or scrapes their knee). Not only that, unlike an earthly parent He is omniscient and omnipotent, as the Psalmist says we cannot flee from His presence, we cannot escape Him. We can run away from our earthly parent but we can never run away from God permanently.

I am really paraphrasing Psalm 103 which proves that God's judgement on His children is not permanent:

"He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger forever;
he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities."

In other words, loss of temporary fellowship for our sins does not equal eternal loss of relationship as God's children.

The doctrine of eternal security is a good news doctrine. It is even the gospel (good news). No matter what mistakes are made in the middle of our life, God is there at the beginning and at the end and our mistakes cannot outdo His ability to save and keep.

Re: "love does not force faithfulness".
- but it is not our faithfulness which saves us, but Christ's faithfulness to God, and Christ's faithfulness to us in the Holy Spirit. If Christ lives in you, then Christ has been and will always be faithful, and you will always be faithful in Christ.

Love does not force faithfulness, but God's love is always stronger than our shortcomings and failures and God's love always brings us back to Him.

Recall the parable of the prodigal son, this story has eternal security written all over it - the prodigal son always comes home and is always received back by the Father. There is no parable in the bible of a child of God leaving and never coming home.

 

[spirit1st]

Job_5:17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:

Pro_3:11 My son, despise not the chastening of the LORD; neither be weary of his correction:

Isa_26:16 LORD, in trouble have they visited thee, they poured out a prayer when thy chastening was upon them.

Heb_12:5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:

Heb_12:7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

Heb_12:11 Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

1Pe_1:4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,

1Pe_4:19 Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator.


Heb_13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.


1Co_5:5 To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

He might take our lives here if we refuse to listen to HIM ? our flesh is weak and wants to sin 1 Our spirit hates sin !


Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Mic_6:8 He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?


Joh_6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

We NEED to LOVE others !Yes we Hate sin ! But love people1

We too could be just as evil as anyone on the earth if Not for GOD grace!

Young christians are still weak ! they need more love which gives mercy more than us !

satan going to try to get us to look down on them or talk eevil about there weakness or faults !

satan wants them and us beat down to give up !
We want too encourage them , lift them up ! Pray for them 1 Blessw them with truth , being humble as we do !

 

[brakelite]

Hello brakelite, the metaphor of husband and wife is typically used to represent Christ and the church, or God and Israel, not our individual relationship with God. But using this metaphor, it is absolutely correct that God divorced Israel, but He also brought her or will bring her back again. He did not cast her off completely. For this reason this is a flawed example of a person losing their eternal salvation. If you can prove that God rejected Israel for eternity, then I think your example has merit to disprove eternal security of salvation.

For our individual relationship with God the parent-child metaphor is more appropriate I would think. I agree that God does not force our faithfulness, He does not over-ride our free will, but He does give us the power to stand, He does hold us by the hand and pick us up (as a father would for a child who falls in the mud or scrapes their knee). Not only that, unlike an earthly parent He is omniscient and omnipotent, as the Psalmist says we cannot flee from His presence, we cannot escape Him. We can run away from our earthly parent but we can never run away from God permanently.

I am really paraphrasing Psalm 103 which proves that God's judgement on His children is not permanent:

"He will not always accuse, nor will he harbor his anger forever;
he does not treat us as our sins deserve or repay us according to our iniquities."

In other words, loss of temporary fellowship for our sins does not equal eternal loss of relationship as God's children.

The doctrine of eternal security is a good news doctrine. It is even the gospel (good news). No matter what mistakes are made in the middle of our life, God is there at the beginning and at the end and our mistakes cannot outdo His ability to save and keep.

Re: "love does not force faithfulness".
- but it is not our faithfulness which saves us, but Christ's faithfulness to God, and Christ's faithfulness to us in the Holy Spirit. If Christ lives in you, then Christ has been and will always be faithful, and you will always be faithful in Christ.

Love does not force faithfulness, but God's love is always stronger than our shortcomings and failures and God's love always brings us back to Him.

Recall the parable of the prodigal son, this story has eternal security written all over it - the prodigal son always comes home and is always received back by the Father. There is no parable in the bible of a child of God leaving and never coming home.

Hi James, you said above that our salvation does not depend on our faithfulness. On this I would agree. By the same token, our salvation isn't dependant upon our righteousness either, correct? However, although our righteousness may not bring about our salvation, surely our sin can bring about damnation? And if our faithfulness may not affect our salvation, surely our unfaithfulness will affect our damnation? Does not the scripture say that there is no condemnation for them that are in Christ Jesus? If one is not in Christ, or in apostasy, then surely the condemnation comes back into effect? Ezekiel 33 speaks loudly and clearly as to the condition of God's people should they fall back into apostasy and sin and rebellion.

 

[james1523]

Hi James, you said above that our salvation does not depend on our faithfulness. On this I would agree. By the same token, our salvation isn't dependant upon our righteousness either, correct? However, although our righteousness may not bring about our salvation, surely our sin can bring about damnation? And if our faithfulness may not affect our salvation, surely our unfaithfulness will affect our damnation? Does not the scripture say that there is no condemnation for them that are in Christ Jesus? If one is not in Christ, or in apostasy, then surely the condemnation comes back into effect? Ezekiel 33 speaks loudly and clearly as to the condition of God's people should they fall back into apostasy and sin and rebellion.

Hello brakelite, very good points. I believe our righteousness , whether good or bad, does not affect our salvation or damnation. This is because Christ is our righteousness:
Phil 3:9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ--the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.

I believe the only thing which affects our salvation is whether we believe in Christ or not.

The matter of being in Christ is related to the matter of living in our sinful nature or living in our new nature, the nature which Christ gives us. This is by setting our mind on the flesh or the Spirit.
The condemnation for those not in Christ Jesus is the temporal condemnation of our conscience and temporal condemnation of God, and not eternal loss of the spirit in the lake of fire. In this sense it is to be treated as a disobedient child, not to be treated as if you were never a child of God.
Our soul is either in the realm of the flesh or realm of the Spirit. This depends upon how we live our life, do we set our mind on the Spirit or the flesh? But this does not change the fact that the Holy Spirit has joined himself to our spirit and we cry Abba, Father and that we are now one spirit with the Lord, and so are eternally saved from hellfire.
In contrast to the condition in Ezekiel 33, Christians have the Holy Spirit joined to their spirit and they are forever God's child. The Holy Spirit is a seal , a mark of God's ownership with us, so we will not suffer the same fate as the devil, the fallen angels and demons and the unbelievers. Unlike the simplistic black and white, heaven and hell theology of modern protestant Christianity, I believe in rewards and punishments as the scriptures teach and the early church taught. So I'm not saying that disobedient ones will get to heaven with a free pass and no consequences, I am not saying that at all. But I am saying that our obedience or disobedience has no bearing on our eternal salvation and status as a child of God, particularly after we have been joined to Christ and His body by the one Spirit, one baptism etc etc, and who we are is because of who Christ is and not who we are in ourselves.

John 3:16 says if we believe we have eternal life, not temporal life, and not eternal life that can be made temporal by our sins and disobedience. This eternal life is actually the eternal Christ (the Spirit of Christ) living within us permanently joined to our spirit. It is as difficult to undo this join, as it is to separate coffee from water in a cup of coffee.

 

[spirit1st]

There are NO perfect Flesh beings on the earth 1 All are sinners ! all die because of sin 100%

Only our new spirit being He makes Us goes too New Jerusalem , our Home and mother !


Gal_4:26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.


Joh_17:14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
Joh_17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

1Jn_4:4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

2Co_10:12 For we dare not make ourselves of the number, or compare ourselves with some that commend themselves: but they measuring themselves by themselves, and comparing themselves among themselves, are not wise.

He Tells us Not to Compare ourselves with others ! Because NONE of Us Not one of us are perfect in the flesh !

He sees All of us as Sinners in the flesh ! I know we are tempted to see others less or greater sinners or not worth much ?

but all are important to Him and He so loved the world !

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Listen the world always wants to put a price on salvation and a working effort ! But it a FREE GIFT!

satan does not want Any of us to get Eternal life !

God wants All mankind to accept His FREE GIFT!

1Jn_2:25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.

 

[DHC]

Hello DHC, the endurance of faith in this sense is to be able to accomplish everything God wants us to do, to endure the trials and tribulations and stand before the Son of Man. It is not endurance unto eternal salvation from hell, as if somehow our endurance is a requisite for salvation from hell. This is a works-based and human effort-based theology DHC, which I would expect to hear from someone who was of the Roman Catholic or Eastern Orthodox persuasion. To your doctrine you may add keeping the sacraments, living a sinless life, and other merit-based requisites to your doctrine if you wish, but they are all from human-effort and not of the free gift of grace.

There will be no one who has failed to keep the faith until the end (in the sense of eternal salvation) because we have the firm promise of standing by faith to every believer which is by God and not our human efforts:
Rom 14:4 "... To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand."

Ps 37:24 "though he may stumble, he will not fall, for the LORD upholds him with his hand."

James, endurance is not a work. Endurance is not a requirement for the entry permit to heaven.

Belief in Jesus Christ is the Gospel, on this we stand, and only this. The Gospel is the entry permit.

Your argument is wholly refuted by the following quotation.

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

Notice it says, doing the will of God and receiving what was promised. What is the will of God?

To believe in Jesus Christ, and we endure in that belief, we do not fall away from our faith.

 

[will]

Hebrews 10:36
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised.

Notice it says, doing the will of God and receiving what was promised. What is the will of God?

To believe in Jesus Christ, and we endure in that belief, we do not fall away from our faith.

I agree with you that endurance is a good thing and is needed to overcome the world's influence on us.
But here is the key question:
From where does that endurance come from? Who's strength is it based on?

Us? self?
or
God through the Victory of Christ on the cross, manifested in His precious Holy Spirit in us?

As long as we are clear where the endurance comes from and how to build it, we have no reason to argue with fellow brothers and sisters over this matter.
Rather we should vigorously shake each others' hands in joyful realization of how powerful the Scriptures is if we do not intellectualize over it as if we had the mental capacity to comprehend by ourselves how deep it is.
:baffle:

 

[DHC]

I agree with you that endurance is a good thing and is needed to overcome the world's influence on us.
But here is the key question:
From where does that endurance come from? Who's strength is it based on?

Us? self?
or
God through the Victory of Christ on the cross, manifested in His precious Holy Spirit in us?

As long as we are clear where the endurance comes from and how to build it, we have no reason to argue with fellow brothers and sisters over this matter.
Rather we should vigorously shake each others' hands in joyful realization of how powerful the Scriptures is if we do not intellectualize over it as if we had the mental capacity to comprehend by ourselves how deep it is.
:baffle:

Hello Will.

I agree with your post completely Will. Though we are not really discussing the source of the endurance.
Rather Will, we are expressing the relevance of the endurance to the Christian life. Some are not clear
as you said, regarding the necessary endurance.

Endurance itself is a very important component of the life in Christ. So many Christians drift from church and Christ
because they do not sow to the spirit. They do not endure and grow, they wilt under the pressures and temptations
of life. Many are derailed from the primary belief in Christ, Will.

Our faith is an active involvement in Christ, a living breathing reconciliation. Daily we endure, daily we put to death the deeds of the flesh,
daily we guard the doctrine of our Lord Jesus Christ. God enables the endurance that we implement in our lives.

Thanks for the advice Will.

 

[Stan53]

I agree with you that endurance is a good thing and is needed to overcome the world's influence on us.
But here is the key question:
From where does that endurance come from? Who's strength is it based on?

Us? self?
or
God through the Victory of Christ on the cross, manifested in His precious Holy Spirit in us?

As long as we are clear where the endurance comes from and how to build it, we have no reason to argue with fellow brothers and sisters over this matter.
Rather we should vigorously shake each others' hands in joyful realization of how powerful the Scriptures is if we do not intellectualize over it as if we had the mental capacity to comprehend by ourselves how deep it is.
:baffle:

As ALL things are from God and we must give Him the glory as such, I can't really dispute that God is our strength. I don't notice however that Jesus gave any guide as to how we endure, He just said "he who endures to the end". He put the onus on us (hey alliteration!) and the responsibility to do so. To me it comes from us or is initiated by us.

 

[will]

Hello Will.Endurance itself is a very important component of the life in Christ. So many Christians drift from church and Christ
because they do not sow to the spirit. They do not endure and grow, they wilt under the pressures and temptations
of life. Many are derailed from the primary belief in Christ, Will.

So the important question is: Why don't they grow? and what can we do to get them to grow?
Speaking from my own experience, I didn't grow because no one showed me *how* to grow.
The Apostles in the first century show the Christians how to grow. The growth itself is purely the work of the Holy Spirit, but the Apostles -- as the more mature ones -- set the tone, and direct them toward an attitude that is receptive to the Holy Spirit's teachings. That is what I was missing. I speak fluent "Christianese" and memorized lots of verses. But since my attitude is that of self-reliance, I do not grow in my appreciation and understanding of the Scriptures.

Until one pastor came alongside me and did what the Apostles did. He told me in simple terms, decisions that I had to make in order to start the Spiritual-growth process in the earnest. Now I feel that my calling is to do this to as many Christians as I can reach, to kickstart their growing process. I believe that the more Christians do this, the more we'll start to see changes in this world. Because in a world that has a lot of mature Christians, we should not see as many brokenness as we see today. The Lord is *still* the answer for the world today. But we as Christians need to step up and do what we are Commissioned with.

Our faith is an active involvement in Christ, a living breathing reconciliation. Daily we endure, daily we put to death the deeds of the flesh,
daily we guard the doctrine of our Lord Jesus Christ. God enables the endurance that we implement in our lives.

Amen, Brother. Beautifully expressed!

 

[will]

As ALL things are from God and we must give Him the glory as such, I can't really dispute that God is our strength. I don't notice however that Jesus gave any guide as to how we endure, He just said "he who endures to the end". He put the onus on us (hey alliteration!) and the responsibility to do so. To me it comes from us or is initiated by us.

Brother, I used to think so too. Until I read the most touching and encouraging prayer by our Lord recorded in John 17.
Especially verses 13-19:

13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

To me it is clear, that we are going to be sanctified (set aside, prepared, equipped, grown) by God's words, as we know it: The Bible.
However one thing is crucial to understand: Bits and pieces of the Scriptures will only confuse us, but if we consume *the whole* Scriptures (without trying to be smart and pick and choose verses) and let it grow inside of us, then God The Holy Spirit will use that, to let us see the whole plan, the whole instructions, the whole *reasoning*, that's how He grow us, and when we have grown into maturity, we will be able to endure.

See, just like the Lord said to the Samarian women at the well: "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life.”

The Living Water is given to the woman. Forever it will be hers, but the source is the Lord, never the woman herself.
The endurance that we are speaking about, is ours, but please don't make the mistake that it is by our strength.

 

[spirit1st]

Heb_5:13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.
1Pe_2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:


We are All New Baby Creatures at Salvation 1
God started a brand new race of beings , made like our LORD JESUS at our New Birth into His Family and household and Kingdom !

Born -Again is just what it says ! a New perfect spiritual birth !

Heb_5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Mat_4:4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
GOD WORD is alive and feeds our New Spirit being ! When It feeds on enough ? then we are Mature in our New spirit !

But we Must walk and live though our Spirit !

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

 

[Stan53]

Brother, I used to think so too. Until I read the most touching and encouraging prayer by our Lord recorded in John 17.
Especially verses 13-19:

13 “I am coming to you now, but I say these things while I am still in the world, so that they may have the full measure of my joy within them. 14 I have given them your word and the world has hated them, for they are not of the world any more than I am of the world. 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17 Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world. 19 For them I sanctify myself, that they too may be truly sanctified.

To me it is clear, that we are going to be sanctified (set aside, prepared, equipped, grown) by God's words, as we know it: The Bible.
However one thing is crucial to understand: Bits and pieces of the Scriptures will only confuse us, but if we consume *the whole* Scriptures (without trying to be smart and pick and choose verses) and let it grow inside of us, then God The Holy Spirit will use that, to let us see the whole plan, the whole instructions, the whole *reasoning*, that's how He grow us, and when we have grown into maturity, we will be able to endure.

See, just like the Lord said to the Samarian women at the well: "Everyone who drinks of this water will thirst again;but whoever drinks of the water that I will give him shall never thirst; but the water that I will give him will become in him a well of water springing up to eternal life

The Living Water is given to the woman. Forever it will be hers, but the source is the Lord, never the woman herself.
The endurance that we are speaking about, is ours, but please don't make the mistake that it is by our strength.

Yes, a great prayer and it shows that Jesus KNEW His Father and His plans and was relating them by this prayer to His disciples. I'm not sure HOW this counters what I said in my last post or what is it you don't think like anymore?
As Paul said, ALL scripture is useful. ALL as in EACH verse can be applied. I agree that the Bible interprets itself, but as Christian we are exhorted and instructed by thoughts that are born out of scripture. Thoughts don't have to be as long as the Bible is and in most cases are NOT. In my walk, 42 years and counting, I have NOT been confused by bits and pieces of scripture. I have learned to take them into context with ALL of scripture and to see how these bits and pieces ADD up. I agree that the totality of scripture is required as a reference point, but it is NOT always efficient nor necessary when dealing with each other as Bible believing Christians.

 

[farout]

So the important question is: Why don't they grow? and what can we do to get them to grow?
Speaking from my own experience, I didn't grow because no one showed me *how* to grow.
The Apostles in the first century show the Christians how to grow. The growth itself is purely the work of the Holy Spirit, but the Apostles -- as the more mature ones -- set the tone, and direct them toward an attitude that is receptive to the Holy Spirit's teachings. That is what I was missing. I speak fluent "Christianese" and memorized lots of verses. But since my attitude is that of self-reliance, I do not grow in my appreciation and understanding of the Scriptures.

Until one pastor came alongside me and did what the Apostles did. He told me in simple terms, decisions that I had to make in order to start the Spiritual-growth process in the earnest. Now I feel that my calling is to do this to as many Christians as I can reach, to kickstart their growing process. I believe that the more Christians do this, the more we'll start to see changes in this world. Because in a world that has a lot of mature Christians, we should not see as many brokenness as we see today. The Lord is *still* the answer for the world today. But we as Christians need to step up and do what we are Commissioned with.



Amen, Brother. Beautifully expressed!

Discipleship is a must ! I feel that when I see someone give an invitation, and say "Give your heart to Jesus", just is not rightand really bothers me. In todays terms what does "give your heart to Jesus", really mean ? I am afraid many have repeated a prayer from the minister or preacher, and repeated a meaningless prayer. This prayer gives a false impression that's all you need in order to be a born again Christian. I consider that prayer to be a counterfeit of a genuine introduction of Jesus Christ to a seeker wanting to respond to Jesus Christ. I have great misgivings about invitations that have everyone who came down, and in public say a prayer. Then there are those churches that dim the lights and and the organist plays, while the choir sings softly and tenderly Jesus is Calling. this all goes on while the preacher says " It's time do do business with God". Now after singing all the verses of "Softly and Tenderly" we have each of the people who came down durring the invitation tells us why they camd down. This is in my opiniom a totally unethical way to get people to come down so everyone cam see how moving the preacher's sermon was. What happens next is appalling, they might or might not give a little booklet about following Jesus and then the service is ended by brother so and so doing the closing prayer. No one takes their name or assigns a elder to help train and disciple each person. Those dear ones who came down seldom get discipled ! That is allowing satan to eat the seed right off the path!

Unless a church has a discipleship program where there are classes, with organized discilpeship training, than the church is doing great harm and these people, and they may never get to the point that they surrender to Jesus Christ and becoming a genuine follower of Jesus Christ. Unless discipleship happens there is a possibility that most of these so called conversions may be nothing more that showing an intrest in Jesus, and that's all.


Having said all the above then some would say these people "fell from God" or in reality their faith had a flaw in from the first. So some would say these people "lost their salvation", I would say they never were saved at all. I sincerely hope this gives some food for thought. Blessings


farout

 

[rhilton]

james1523,

Am I reading you correctly, that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same person?

 

[spirit1st]

GOD is three parts as He made mankind ! but Just one being as we are !

1Jn_5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

1Th_5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Gen_1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Gen_9:6 Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed: for in the image of God made he man.

1Ti_3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

GOD is not three different beings ! There is Only ONE GOD , made up of three parts ! We too are only one being made of three parts !

Jas_2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

 

[spirit1st]

We need to be taught as Our LORD was ! We follow HIM!

1Co_2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.


Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

1Jn_2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.

We read scriptures and we ask Him the correct understanding ! We must ask ! Nothing of earth or heaven He will not reveal too us if we are able to receive it ?

Heb_5:12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

Mankind leans to His own understanding and will not get the correct understanding ! We must be taught by the Spirit of truth !

Rom_8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

 

[rhilton]

spirit1st,

I'm not sure I am clear what you mean by "three parts". Are you referring to persons?

Historically, God has been understood as the Godhead, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Three persons with one essence or nature, just as with man being created in God's image, there are over 7 billion persons in the world but only one human essence or nature. Only the Son of God took humanity unto Himself in the Incarnation. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not participate in this greatest event in history. In John 1:14 reads, "And the Word became flesh and lived among us. And we saw His glory, glory as of the
monogenes from the Father, full of grace and truth." This refers to the Son's incarnation and to his life and ministry. In the immediately preceding context, John records that those who believe in his name were given authority to become children of God. These believers or children of God were born of God (ek theou egennethesan). God's Son is directly connected to this. He is the monogene from the Father; they are the children (tekna) of God. As God has become the Father of believers in their generation or birth, so the Word stands in relation to the Father as his monogenes. In John 1:18, the Word is described as "the monogenes God [or Son], who is at the Father's side," and who has made the unseen God known to us.

As can be seen, the original language makes it clear that the Father and Son are two distinct persons.