Not under the Law?

[B-A-C]

A major mis-conception here is
the law = the commandments
the commandments = the law

The law was much more than the commandments.
This is like saying New Jersey = the United States.

The old testament law required priests, it required sacrifices for every sin, it required restitution if possible, it required confession to a priest, it required death for sin,
it required certain kinds of offerings during certain times of the year, it required a lot of liturgy and ritualism, it required certain types of sacrifices for certain kinds of sins,
it required the priests themselves to cleanse themselves, it required everyone but the high priest to stay out of the Holy of Holies and the presence of God, it required
following between 300 and 600 rules (depending on how you interpret the verses) it required blood over your door on the passover, it required an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth
but it was much more than the commandments, it was a way of life.

Some people think that just because we aren't under all of these things, we aren't supposed to follow some of the commandments either.
Yet over a dozen times in the New Testament, we are told to keep the commandments that have to do with loving God and our neighbor.

 

[spirit1st]

this is when Mary went into Egypt

Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Yes i also understand the 12 Tribes! !

Isrtael never went anywhere ! Only Mary did with the Baby ! I believe the flood was Herods men sent to kill all the kids in that area under two years old ! While mary had already left and stayed in Egypt !

Jesus is Head of the 12 tribes ! And in NEW JERUSALEM ! each Tower has the name of Each Tribe1 Which we too are part of one Judah! But i also understand How it could be taken either way ?

 

[spirit1st]

I Did not write the Bible ! It says Once born of God SEED we CANNOT SIN !

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.



No one was ever made like our NEW CREATURE ! It made in the image of JESUS CHRIST ! We see clearly He never Sinned ! so it not hard to believe if we are Like Him in our Spirit ? WE CANNOT SIN !


We have a different nature than the Angels or adam and eve Had ! God started a Brand new race of Beings ! Made like HIM ! we are the New Creatures ! I know it hard to believe as we see How weak our flesh is ! But that is not the true Eternal US ! It like be the Pesident driving a junk car ? Maybe ?

The One inside that Car is the One who Counts !

2Pe_1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

[B-A-C]

I Did not write the Bible ! It says Once born of God SEED we CANNOT SIN !

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

You have an incorrect translation.

(NASB)
1 Jn 3:9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1 Jn 3:10 By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

(AMP) No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine *****, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God.

(GW) Those who have been born from God don't live sinful lives. What God has said lives in them, and they can't live sinful lives. They have been born from God.

(MSG) People conceived and brought into life by God don't make a practice of sin. How could they? God's seed is deep within them, making them who they are. It's not in the nature of the God-begotten to practice and parade sin.

(NLT) Those who have been born into God's family do not make a practice of sinning, because God's life is in them. So they can't keep on sinning, because they are children of God.

 

[spirit1st]

The FAMILY of GOD has No SIN ! Our flesh is Not part of GOD Perfect family ! You kept thinking our flesh has eternal life ! It does not it dies returns to the dust of the Earth ! The Church of JESUS CHRIST is Unseen ! Everything we see is but for a moment in time !It all going to be Gone One day 100% !

Heb_10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Liten there are too many scriptures revealing we are like Jesus at salvation to be wrong! Also god cannot dwell in a sinner ! He could Not dwell in our Spirit if we were still beings ! Need to pick up grandson now sorry !

 

[B-A-C]

Also god cannot dwell in a sinner ! He could Not dwell in our Spirit if we were still beings ! Need to pick up grandson now sorry !

Was Jesus God? Did he dwell with sinners, tax collectors and prostitutes?
Can we grieve the Holy Spirit? Eph 4:30;
Can we resist the Holy Spirit? Acts 7:51;
Can our spirit as believers be defiled?
2 Cor 7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

Is there a verses in the Bible that says the Holy Spirit cannot be in the presence of sin?

 

[spirit1st]

The way we do it in our Spirit is By accepting His Gospel as truth and Him from ouur heart [Spirit[ as LORD and master ! then He takes over mostly ? He reponisable for His Family and Household and Church !
He keeps us then we Do not keep ourselves !

1Pe_1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Eph_4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

We grieve Him when we do not obey the Lord in the flesh ! That why we must be trying too Walk and Live thur our spirit as much as possible ! Because our spiruit cannot sin ! It Only wants to do just like our LORD JESUS ! Please God !
Because it made in His image ! it has his type Mind and Nature !

Is this TRUTH ? Will He leave Us or Forsake US ? of course Not !

Rom_8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Listen all the angels of GOd know Us and all the demons know us and they fear Us All !

spirits can see each other ! That why some are more spiritually minded and might Love or Hate you right away !

others are Not so spiritually minded ?

 

[james1523]

2 Cor 3:6 He has enabled us to be ministers of his new covenant. This is a covenant not of written laws, but of the Spirit. The old written covenant ends in death; but under the new covenant, the Spirit gives life.

We are not under the written Law of Moses (10 commands + the other 600 or so), but this does not mean we are without law. Our situation now not being under law is much better! In Old Testament they were under law but the law was not in their deepest part (their spirit). They could only obey this law by their good natural mind, emotions and will and good conscience... it did them no good, they still sin and die. But now the written law we are not under it, but the law is in us. As believers there is a law in us. God has installed into us a "law of the Spirit of life". Rom 8:2. This is not something external to us but inside us. This law does not have a right versus wrong mentality it is quite different. This law is like a permanent IV drip that injects spiritual nutrition into us so that we grow the right fruit. Jesus indicated this when He said "I am the vine, you are the branches". As branches connected to the vine, we receive the same sap, life, as Christ, and this life IS Christ. This IV drip we need to make sure we don't block the flow by living in the flesh, but keep the flow going by living in the Spirit. Christians do not need to know the 10 commandments or anyone to teach them moral law (right from wrong)...but even if we try to keep it, our situation is no better than the Old Testament. When we are born we have a right versus wrong mentality inbuilt in us but this is part of our fallen natural man. Adam and Eve before the fall had no such concept of right versus wrong.. God and goodness was all they knew. See the law of the spirit of life will let you do things others cannot do, and not permit you to do things that others can. What is wrong for you may be right for someone else, what is right for someone else may be wrong for you. And there are things that are wrong for everyone, no exceptions. Following law of letters is like this:"The written law says "do or not do this", so "I must try to do or not do this", or "God please help me to keep your law that says do or not do this". This is the way of letters and leads to (spiritual) death. Many Christians live like this. Many denominations teach like this. Notice that the focus is on the 'self', the natural man, self effort. God is involved but only to "help you", it is still trying to keep the law in own strength. But rather, the law of the Spirit will cause you to do or not do those things that please God, by experience and by the sense of life and peace within you:

1 John 2:27 But you have received the Holy Spirit, and he lives within you, so you don't need anyone to teach you what is true. For the Spirit teaches you everything you need to know, and what he teaches is true--it is not a lie. So just as he has taught you, remain in fellowship with Christ.

If we minister the written law we are ministering death, and are ministers of death. But if we minister the Christ (Spirit of Christ), we are ministering life, and are ministers of life.


"Is there a verses in the bible that says the Holy Spirit cannot be in the presence of sin?"

This is not an answer just a comment: If the Holy Spirit could not be in the presence of sin... then there is no way for the Holy Spirit to come inside us when we are first saved . It is not that the Holy Spirit cannot be in presence of sin... but that sin cannot be in presence of the Holy Spirit. Who is more powerful here.. sin or Holy Spirit?

 

[spirit1st]

Joh_7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Act_5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Everyone DIED in THERE SINS !Until HE rose from the DEAD

1Co_15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

The HOLY GHOST did not dwell in anyone! Until the Lord was gorified ! He had to die for our Sins First and be rose from the DEAD 1

 

[DHC]

Some people think that just because we aren't under all of these things, we aren't supposed to follow some of the commandments either.
Yet over a dozen times in the New Testament, we are told to keep the commandments that have to do with loving God and our neighbor.

Hello B-A-C.

I am not sure whether I understand what it is you are declaring?

We are not under the law you state, then you say that we must keep them?

Is this a contradiction?

Thanks B-A-C.

 

[spirit1st]

GOD has Called the FEW WILLING ? To a higher calling 1 Love and Faith is LOTS , NOT LESS!
i know it on;ly two words ! But they Both are Very powerful !

1Co_13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Which is LOVE!

Mat_17:20 And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you.
HOW Powerful Faith CAN BE?

Rom_12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

GOd has called each of us who have given ourselves and all we have to HIM ! To serve Now !
Later we rule under HIM ! He served while here ! We serve while here !

Rev_3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.


The REWARDS will be far beyond anything we could think !

1Co_2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
HOW GREAT is this ????? Far beyond our thinking , we cannot even guess it so GREAT and WONDERFUL !

 

[B-A-C]

Hello B-A-C.

I am not sure whether I understand what it is you are declaring?

We are not under the law you state, then you say that we must keep them?

Is this a contradiction?

Thanks B-A-C.

I never said we weren't under the law. That seems to be your position if I am not mistaken.
What I said is we are not saved by following the law. I've also stated that the evidence of our faith (after we are already saved) is shown by works.
I said we aren't under the penalty of the law (death) but we are under obligation to love God and our neighbors.
As I have stated before, I don't consider the law and commandments to be the same thing.

No contradiction here.

 

[james1523]

I never said we weren't under the law.....

Brother please consider:

Rom 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

 

[B-A-C]

Brother please consider:

Rom 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

I have considered it many times, I stand by my statement. We are not under the penalty of the law. But we under obligation to be obedient.
Have you considered these verses?

Matt 19:17; And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments."
John 14:15; "If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
John 15:10; "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.
1 Jn 2:3; By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
1 Jn 2:4; The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
1 Jn 3:22; and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight.
1 Jn 5:3; For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.
Rev 12:17; So the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her children, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.
Rev 14:12; Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

What are the commandments, simply to love God and love your neighbor.
What is the grace we are under? The grace is for when we fail. (we aren't perfect)

Rom 6:1; What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
Rom 5:20; The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,

More sin requires more grace, less sin requires less grace. Either way the debt has to be paid. Yes Jesus pays it all, it doesn't cost us anything. But it says he has to give more grace.
Why keep adding to the debt of sin if you can avoid it?

 

[spirit1st]

The question becomes ? Our righteousness or HIS righteousnress ! His by Faith or our by Works !

Gal_3:12 And the law is not of faith

Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Rom_4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.


the law is Bondage ! We are Free in our LORD JESUS ! If we give ? We give out of the desire to Give !

 

[B-A-C]

The question becomes ? Our righteousness or HIS righteousnress ! His by Faith or our by Works !

Gal_3:12 And the law is not of faith

Php_3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Rom_9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Rom_4:13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.


the law is Bondage ! We are Free in our LORD JESUS ! If we give ? We give out of the desire to Give !

All of these verses are talking about depending upon your own (without Christ) ability to follow the law, they are talking about not depending on Jesus to have grace.
We can't follow the law on our own, we have to have some grace. They are also talking about salvation, not the Christian walk.

 

[james1523]

Gentiles are outside the law, and are not and never been under the law of Moses (which includes the 10 commandments). Notice what Paul says:
1Co 9:21 To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.

This does not mean he is without law, he says he is under the law of Christ...this would be by being in Christ living within Him, the law of the Spirit of life is regulating His living and so He is obeying God's commands. This is way of the Spirit not way of the letter.
Gal 4:21 Tell me, ye that desire to be under the law, do ye not hear the law?
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

In book of Acts they held a council in Jerusalem and determined that Gentiles did not have to keep Law of Moses.
Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” etc

 

[B-A-C]

Acts 15:5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.” etc

Which is why I said the only two that still apply is loving God and loving your neighbor.

Are you saying Christians have no obligation to do these two things?

Rom 2:28; For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh.
Rom 2:29; But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

If we can't sin, why do we need Jesus?

 

[james1523]

Which is why I said the only two that still apply is loving God and loving your neighbor.

Are you saying Christians have no obligation to do these two things?

Strictly speaking.. yes Christians have NO obligation to obey the Law of Moses.

There is no "only two that still apply". You seem to be treating these two commandments as if these are parts of the Law of Moses, law of letters written on stone, that are extracted, and then applied to Gentile Christians. This is not the case. The Law of Moses is a complete entity. It cannot be picked apart like this.. for if we disobey even one commandment we disobey all. Law of Moses as a complete entity was only for Israelite. Now we have the Law of Christ, which is internal law of the Spirit written on our hearts not on stone. Law of Christ is that law which causes you to do what God requires of you. Even to love God and love neighbor we cannot do by following the letter. Bible says we love God because He loved us first (1 John 4:19). So even if we think we love God and others , it is only because God loved us first. Jesus told us to "remain in His love" - John 15:10. The commands He says we must keep are not written commands but commands that He speaks to our spirit by His Spirit. If we treat the written commands in the New Testament like the written commands in the Old Testament we are still living in Old Testament! Old Testament living is like this: "Bible says this, I must do it, I will do it". New Testament living is this "Bible says this, Lord change my heart to be like this, Christ I just want you..thankyou for living in Me.." - His Spirit in our spirit writes His commands on our heart (mind, emotion, will).. they are already there.. in full, full installment, no later download update.

If we want to prove this.. try to hate someone and mean it... if we are a believer.. just try to hate someone.. go up to someone and tell them "I hate you".. we cannot do it.. we cannot hate someone because the commandment to love God and love our neighbour is already written on your heart. If we can do it.. maybe law of God is not written on our heart yet. Maybe because we follow law of letter external to us so we ourselves are not changed. This is why people who follow religion only but no relationship with Christ.. they can fight and attack each other.. in past centuaries Roman Catholic fought Protestant and Protestant fought Protestant..much bloodshed.. but most follow old testament way of keeping God's requirements.. they keep new testament commands in old testament way.. but if law of God is on your heart you cannot do this.

So they do not "still apply" as law of letters. But as God's will yes they apply.. loving God and neighbor existed before Law of Moses. It exists after Law of Moses...it always exists. This is law of Spirit not law of letter. God wants us to love Him with our spirit: John 4:24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth.

 

[papajim]

One of the problems I see here is the inability to express in words what we know to be true, another problem is a difference in comprehension we read the same texts and see it differently. I see both sides of the debate and see truth in both sides.
I also see that some have a lot of truth but haven't put it all together yet.

The gospel is not law verses grace for the law is not sin, but sin is transgression of the law. Jesus freed us from sin which means Jesus freed us from transgressing the law. If sin is the sting of death then grace is freeing us from death caused from the sting. By freeing us from sin Jesus freed us from death. That is grace. This is what we have in Jesus freedom from sin, or freedom from transgressing the law.

To prove my point we need to look at the life of Jesus. Jesus was a man, born of the seed of David, Jesus was the son of man. He came in our sinful flesh but He never sinned. Jesus was also filled with the grace of God, He also kept all ten of the commandments perfectly.
So in Jesus we have the law and grace not law verses grace. Did Jesus keep the commandments by the works of the law or by faith? Jesus was filled with the righteousness of God through a relationship with God that we are to have to overcome as He overcame, to walk as He walked. It is only through the same kind of relationship with God that Jesus has, that we overcome all sin, a gift that we already have in Christ. Forgiveness is to cutoff sin, this is grace, this was done at the cross. By faith we recieve obedience to the law so that we are transformed into the likeness of Christ. B-A-C mentions Rev. 14:12 "Here they that keep the commandments and have the faith of Jesus" It is through having the same kind of faith that Jesus had that we become obedient to the law. Jesus showed us the way, and in that way is the truth, and in that truth there is life. Jesus is our example!!

Not understanding this is why both sides have many texts to support thier point of view, as I said both sides have truth, but not a full comprehension of the gospel.