Luther's Defense of God's Law

[RJ]

Are you sure you understand God's grace? I think you are confusing God's grace with freedom from human responsibility. Both can give similar feelings of peace and contentment, but one is from God's presence and the other is from a feeling that we don't have to do anything. Please don't say that I say "we don't have to do anything". I have never said that, so please don't give the usual "legalists" response: "Oh you can just do anything" !No, you confuse your own physical effort (like a peice of machinery). Machinery has no spiritual influence. When you boast in your own efforts, you are no different than a "mechanical" effort. You just refuse what Jesus said: "I am the vine and you are the branch". Either Christ is working through you or you boast and can do nothing...not my words, his words. The Buddhists and others practice the latter by removing themselves from all human responsibility to suffering and pain etc, through ignorance. You now compare me with a Buddist? I love God, I love Jesus, I believe in the Trinity and I have accepted Jesus as my own personal savior and believe in his death,burial and reurrection and now you insinuate that I worship a false God?
This is like those churches that believe God will miraculously protect them when they handle poisonous snakes - they are not truly experiencing God's protection, they are just playing with fate or tempting God. But they think they are experiencing God's power when they do survive snake handling because that's what they've convinced themselves to believe.Are you comparing me to this Godliness? You are desperate. We can tempt God where it concerns our salvation also - expect or believe He will save us but without obeying Him in the simplest matters such as water baptism. Yes, you boast alright! Only you will be in heaven, right?...LOL! This is under the guise of a false humility and super-spirituality which pretends God to be responsible for everything including our decisions and responsibilities. But God saves us on His terms not ours, and since He has included human responsibility in His salvation plan, then we must go along with what He says and not presume that His grace "alone" saves us without us having to do anything.

His grace saves us alone but you must reject that to support your need for works! But, I have never said we have no action on our part but you just falsely claim I say that. Your making false claim, is this a fruit of the Holy Spirit in you or your fruit?
What you have claimed or called me in this post concerns me. I will continue to pray for you and like your brother Jehonadab, I will no longer respond to your acuations and posts. I know I have Christ in me and I am saved by the gospel that Paul preached. So,according to you, when we die, Jesus will separate us out. You will go on the right and to heaven and I will go on the left and to hell. You will be saved and I will not and the only basic difference is you have been water baptised and I have not.....Maybe we don't worship the same God after all James.

 

[Jehonadab]

His grace saves us alone but you must reject that to support your need for works! But, I have never said we have no action on our part but you just falsely claim I say that. Your making false claim, is this a fruit of the Holy Spirit in you or your fruit?
What you have claimed or called me in this post concerns me. I will continue to pray for you and like your brother Jehonadab, I will no longer respond to your acuations and posts. I know I have Christ in me and I am saved by the gospel that Paul preached. So,according to you, when we die, Jesus will separate us out. You will go on the right and to heaven and I will go on the left and to hell. You will be saved and I will not and the only basic difference is you have been water baptised and I have not.....Maybe we don't worship the same God after all James.

It puzzles me that I have stated it in other threads, probably more than once, that but for his grace he would have let us go completely. But his grace is part of who he is. He does not change. He does not turn his grace off and on. His grace has always been there ready to save those that have faith to allow it. In fact, his grace is so great that it dashes the vessel of the haughty so that he might get that vessel to repent and allow the implanting of that first grain of faith that he might save them.

Nothing that he could require after the fact of the first issue of grace can be said to be what saves us as we would have no chance to have faith or love or the works of love but for his grace.

It is wrong to say that because grace alone saves us he is not allowed to require anything from us, even as it is wrong to say that works can save us.

That is so simple to understand.

 

[Jehonadab]

I see the following as a request to God for his grace:

Psalms 119:124-125 "Deal with thy servant according unto thy mercy, and teach me thy statutes. I am thy servant; give me understanding, that I may know thy testimonies."

Psalms 119:132-136
132 "Look thou upon me, and be merciful unto me, as thou usest to do unto those that love thy name.
133 Order my steps in thy word: and let not any iniquity have dominion over me.
134 Deliver me from the oppression of man: so will I keep thy precepts.
135 Make thy face to shine upon thy servant; and teach me thy statutes.
136 Rivers of waters run down mine eyes, because they keep not thy law."

How do you feel about that?

Do you see that what is being asked for is God's grace and that the purpose of that grace is evident within that request?

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Romans 11:5-6 "Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

To understand the above we need to go back to Elijah's day and understand that God could have simply cast off the entire nation for their disobedience. As I told you once before, God worked with Israel as though it were one body and we must bear that in mind. That one body called Israel pictured the body of Christ which was to come.

Note who that remnant back there were: 1 Kings 19:18 "Yet I have left me seven thousand in Israel, all the knees which have not bowed unto Baal, and every mouth which hath not kissed him."

If that remnant had not bowed their knees unto to Baal nor kissed up to him, then why would they need God's grace in order to be a remnant to him?

Clue: 1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

 

[james1523]

His grace saves us alone but you must reject that to support your need for works! But, I have never said we have no action on our part but you just falsely claim I say that. Your making false claim, is this a fruit of the Holy Spirit in you or your fruit?
What you have claimed or called me in this post concerns me. I will continue to pray for you and like your brother Jehonadab, I will no longer respond to your acuations and posts. I know I have Christ in me and I am saved by the gospel that Paul preached. So,according to you, when we die, Jesus will separate us out. You will go on the right and to heaven and I will go on the left and to hell. You will be saved and I will not and the only basic difference is you have been water baptised and I have not.....Maybe we don't worship the same God after all James.

Chill. No one's said you're going to hell, neither did anyone call you anything. Honestly, if you really believe you are going to Heaven, what anybody else says or thinks about your salvation doesn't bother you. Thank you for your prayers but God will only answer prayers according to His will, and His will in this case is that you get baptized my friend. Just remember that worshiping God is not about giving Him lip service but also doing what He asks. I think Acts 2:38 is clear we have to do two things at least - repent and be baptized. Without water baptism we are not a member of the Christian church and cannot partake in holy communion. Baptism signifies entrance into the Christian church and taking communion signifies fellowship with Christ and unity with the church. According to Acts 2:41-42, there were no unbaptized members in the church or taking communion (which commences after baptism).

 

[RJ]

Chill. No one's said you're going to hell, neither did anyone call you anything. Honestly, if you really believe you are going to Heaven, what anybody else says or thinks about your salvation doesn't bother you. Thank you for your prayers but God will only answer prayers according to His will, and His will in this case is that you get baptized my friend. Just remember that worshiping God is not about giving Him lip service but also doing what He asks. I think Acts 2:38 is clear we have to do two things at least - repent and be baptized. Without water baptism we are not a member of the Christian church and cannot partake in holy communion. Baptism signifies entrance into the Christian church and taking communion signifies fellowship with Christ and unity with the church. According to Acts 2:41-42, there were no unbaptized members in the church or taking communion (which commences after baptism).

You don't know me and what is in my heart, that is for God alone. Honestly, I know I am already in heaven, even from the foundation of the world and nothing you can insinuate makes any difference to me, especially your salvation by works! You don't know God's will or you would know that salvation is by his grace alone and justified by the fruits of the Holy Spirit and none of your own doing ever! You really like to boast.

 

[james1523]

You don't know me and what is in my heart, that is for God alone. Honestly, I know I am already in heaven, even from the foundation of the world and nothing you can insinuate makes any difference to me, especially your salvation by works! You don't know God's will or you would know that salvation is by his grace alone and justified by the fruits of the Holy Spirit and none of your own doing ever! You really like to boast.

I'm just telling you what the Bible says, and we should follow the Bible rather than anything else including feelings. The Bible teaches that God's will is for us to repent and be baptized, and baptism is obedience to the Gospel (Acts 2:38, Acts 8:36, Mt 28:19-20, Acts 22:16). If we love Jesus we will do what He has commanded (John 14:15).

 

[RJ]

I'm just telling you what the Bible says, and we should follow the Bible rather than anything else including feelings. The Bible teaches that God's will is for us to repent and be baptized, and baptism is obedience to the Gospel (Acts 2:38, Acts 8:36, Mt 28:19-20, Acts 22:16). If we love Jesus we will do what He has commanded (John 14:15).

• Right, so if I do not get baptised, I do not love Jesus; again God searches my heart, he knows and you do not have this wisdom.
• John 14:15 as you quoted says commandments; wouldn't that mean all of them. Also, if the Lord said to keep the commandments, surely he would mean keep them all the time with out fail. You can not keep all of his comandments, all the time with out fail, or the truth is not in you.
• Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor, enemies and one another, right? Look at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6. These are a list of ways that we are called to love (Agapoe Love), I suppose you do this all the time without fail.
• So, again, not only with baptism, you personally keep All commandements all the time with out failure. Be careful how you answer, remember God himself said, "if you fail one element of the law you have failed the entire law!
• If you say that you are saved first and then you get baptised, then the Holy Spirit is in you that signifies salvation. If he is already in you and he said he would never leave or forsake you, then the water actually has not part in your salvation. If you say that you must be baptised to be saved, then that is works ( man doing first) not the Holy Spirit, then you have salvation by your works and God said no to that. So either way water has nothing to do with it!

 

[james1523]

• Right, so if I do not get baptised, I do not love Jesus; again God searches my heart, he knows and you do not have this wisdom.
• John 14:15 as you quoted says commandments; wouldn't that mean all of them. Also, if the Lord said to keep the commandments, surely he would mean keep them all the time with out fail. You can not keep all of his comandments, all the time with out fail, or the truth is not in you.
• Jesus commanded us to love our neighbor, enemies and one another, right? Look at 1 Corinthians 13:4-6. These are a list of ways that we are called to love (Agapoe Love), I suppose you do this all the time without fail.
• So, again, not only with baptism, you personally keep All commandements all the time with out failure. Be careful how you answer, remember God himself said, "if you fail one element of the law you have failed the entire law!
• If you say that you are saved first and then you get baptised, then the Holy Spirit is in you that signifies salvation. If he is already in you and he said he would never leave or forsake you, then the water actually has not part in your salvation. If you say that you must be baptised to be saved, then that is works ( man doing first) not the Holy Spirit, then you have salvation by your works and God said no to that. So either way water has nothing to do with it!

3 things - We repent, we believe, we get baptized, in no particular order. Ask any pastor (God's ordained authority in the church) if we need baptism and they will say "yes".
I don't care how many times we claim to have the Spirit or be a Christian, and how right or wrong we are about the doctrine of baptism (maybe experience it yourself first?), the simple fact is if we are not baptized we are not a disciple of Christ and not a member of His church. We need to prove our commitment to Christ to God and others by being baptized (salvation is not just about us or how we feel). If we love Jesus and want to obey Him, and have received the Spirit of God, we will want to get baptized. Baptism is also a fruit of the Spirit - it is a result of receiving the Spirit of God.

Unlike the great commandments to love, baptism is easy, fast, and only needs to be done once in our lifetime.

Acts 10:47 proves that those who receive the Holy Spirit also need to be baptize with water:
Acts 10:47 ""Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.""
Jesus had the Spirit from birth and got baptized.

If we've had the invisible experience of receiving the Spirit, we also need the visible experience to make it practical so that everyone else can know that we are a Christian.
If we have the Spirit in us then prove it. Like you said, no one can know our heart except God, so for that reason, and for the sake of our church fellowship, we need to take care of the practical matters also.

The Bible says whoever believes and is baptized, will be saved (Mark 16:16). If it is not related to salvation then it would not say "and is baptized", in that verse. Everything in that verse is about salvation, which includes belief and baptism.

So if I was you, I would take baptism seriously, don't say the water doesn't matter, - there's a reason we baptize in water and not coca cola or packing foam.