Luther's Defense of God's Law

[james1523]

Repentance (2 Cor 7:10) we are not saved from the righteous judgment of God by stopping sin and doing good--that would be salvation by works. We are saved from our sins by trusting in Christ. Again if our repentance was a requirement before salvation that is our works. We have a change in conscienceness toward God, regeneration, then repentance.

Works (James 2:24). Yes but justification is the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner . It is based completely and solely upon Jesus' sacrifice on the cross 1 Peter 2:24 and is received by faith alone; which all is precluded by God's grace to us....none of our doing.

In the Gospels, John's baptism of repentance came first before belief in Christ.
In Acts 2:38, Peter said repentance and baptism was the first thing they had to do.

I don't think repentance is ever called a "work" in Scripture. Are you trying to say that we don't have to do anything to be saved?

Faith (Rom 5:1) Faith is a gift or by the grace of God and not a requirement of salvation but a derivative of God;s free grace. Romans 12: 3...Faith is only a result of God's grace alone! Why don't you explain this verse?

In this sense of faith as a gift, aren't all things a gift?- life, air, food, etc.
Please tell us if it is our faith that saves us or someone else's?

Mercy (Titus 3:5) Wow James, this is so odd of you...this verse actually argues against your stance on works required for salvation and clearly this "Mercy" is by God's grace alone.
Grace (Titus 3:7) Same as mercy above.

The word's "grace alone" do not appear in these verses at all. It says we are saved by His mercy and the Holy Spirit in this verse.

Baptism (1 Peter 3:21). You are a Immersion Regenerationist by your works and I am not.

I don't think it matters what you or I am, it only matters what God's Word says, in this case it says:
1 Peter 3:21 "....this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you..."

 

[Jehonadab]

It's funny how over time, not only do theologies change, but even definitions.

I see a few problems with the OP from the view of Luther, mostly by what is presumably defined.

For example, some see the "law" and the "commandments" as one and the same thing. Main stream protestantism does not.
The commandments are just a small subset of the entire law. So "the law" means being under the Aaronic/Levite priesthood,
sacrifices, circumcision, and and human punishment (i.e. and eye for an eye, stoning rebellious children, etc..)
Also being free from the law means, doesn't mean we shouldn't obey the ten commandments, it means we are free from the penalty
of the law (death) if we don't obey them 100%.

Another example is the definition of legalism.
From the antimonian point of view, legalism means obeying any part of the law at all.
From the mainstream protestant point of view, it means those who believe you must follow all of the law, all of the time. 100%
The antimonian would label someone who believe we SHOULD follow the ten commandments as a legalist.
The mainstream protestant would label someone who believes we HAVE to follow the ten commandments as a legalist.

Yet another difference, are those who believe salvation and the Christian walk are one and the same thing.
Mainstream protestantism separates them. For example, we can not get saved by works. However the works of our Christian walk (after we are saved) are the proof that we have faith.

The provision of grace is viewed differently by different groups also (there seems to be much disagreement about this).
The antimonian view is that the only sin anyone can commit is unbelief, so the only grace required, is the grace to "let sinners" receive salvation.
(This seems to be somewhat contradicted, in that they also believe we can "become" under the law if we choose to).
Some Christians believe that grace is a one time thing, in that now I am saved - I need no more grace. All of my past and future sins are covered
at the moment of salvation.
Some Christians believe that grace is an on-going thing. Every time I sin after becoming a Christian, more grace must be given.
The difference between this and legalism is, that instead of having to follow the ten commandments 100% of the time, there is grace for those
times we mess up.
There is yet another group, extreme Armenianists, that really don't believe in grace it seems. These would be considered legalists.
You must follow all of the commandments, all of the time after becoming a Christian. There is no grace, no forgiveness, and no second chances.

Righteousness does not come by works of the law, indeed no man can keep even the ten commandments 100%. This is where grace comes in.
It covers the failures (sins). So that before God, we appear perfect. We are saved by faith (and grace), yet faith without works is dead.

Christians will be judged by Christ. This also means different things to different people.
Antimonians seems to believe that Christians won't be judged by Christ at all.
Some believe Christians will only be judged for rewards, for example, even if you have no works, the man himself will be saved.
Others believe we will be judged by our deeds, and that there have to be at least some good works.

The paradox of the commandments....
The mainstream protestant asks for forgiveness for not keeping all of the commandments.
The tongue in cheek joke would be that antimonians would ask for forgiveness for accidentally keeping one of the commandments.
And while it's true that no one can keep the commandments 100% (except Jesus)
It's also true that no one can NOT keep at least some of the commandments, at least some of the time.
Very few people can lie, steal, murder, commit adultery, worship idols and false gods, and envy every single day!
So if you haven't killed anyone today, you have kept at least one commandment today. Even if you didn't mean to.

Perfect obedience isn't required, there is grace. (Thank God for that). But some obedience is required.
The minute we think we cannot sin, and there is no debt for our sins, is the minute we think we can stop needing Jesus.

While we cannot sin so much that we lose our salvation, we can sin so much that we lose our faith.
Part of that faith is that I am saved even though I sometimes sin. This is much different from I am saved because I do not sin.
(Which in the old testament days would be the same as saying I am able to keep the commandments 100%)

That is truly a fine job of assessing the situation, B-A-C.

I understand why Solomon said, Ecclesiastes 1:18 “For in much wisdom is much grief: and he that increases knowledge increases sorrow.”

I have learned by the grace of God what some of the common denominators are to all of that confusion. They are:

1. An erroneous belief that man sins because he genetically inherited a sin nature which he is powerless to.
2. An erroneous belief that God sets his spirit in us and does it all for us rather than teaching our own spirit to conform to his and requiring us to cooperate with his teaching of us. This is an ignorance of why God must train our spirit by means of his spirit and an ignorance of how he does that.
3. And the first two are added to by lack of understanding of the seven different ways the word spirit is used in the scriptures.

As to number one, it pains me that, according to the wisdom God has graciously given me, I am now equipped to prove from the scriptures that the sin we commit is a learned thing but few want to hear it.

As to number two, it pains me that, according to the wisdom God has graciously given me, I am now equipped to detail why it is our spirit needs to be taught and to detail how God teaches our spirit, but few want to hear it.

Most seem to stuck in La la land. Because they think they know but in reality lack knowledge and understanding, they have a veil over their hearts of which they are unaware.

Why does man sin? Genesis 2:9 “And out of the ground made the LORD God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.”

That is corrupted knowledge. Man's corrupted knowledge can sometimes succeed in good things for him but that then only blinds him to the fact that his knowledge was handed down to him corrupted.

God used Israel of the flesh to demonstrate this to us. He spent forty years working the self-will out of them in the wilderness so that they would return to having no knowledge of good or bad: Deuteronomy 1:38-39 “But Joshua the son of Nun, which standeth before thee, he shall go in thither: encourage him: for he shall cause Israel to inherit it. Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it.”

Why did God do that? God was creating a picture for us to look at so that we could know the mechanics of how we learn sin and of how we can learn righteousness. By working the self-will out of the people God conditioned them to not try to decide what was good or bad for themselves, for as long as they tried to decide good and bad for themselves they would not really listen completely to God so that he could teach them.

The picture God there created is being fulfilled under grace and if we have dismissed the entire idea of that Old Law to the point that we do not consider it then we will not know the mechanics of how we learn sin and how we can learn righteousness from God, whilst his grace has bought us the time to do so.

If we could get people to study this, the knowledge of it would chase their erroneous ideas away.

 

[Barny]

I don't believe that the law of sin and death is the 10 commandments

2Cor 3:7-11
But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory.For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.

The law of sin and death is the law within yourself that causes you to break the 10 commandments even when you don't want to.

Seems an unusual way to put it.

I would describe it differently to your description.
Rom 7:12 describes the law as holy, just and good. The law is the principles of God.

BUT, in regards to using the law as a means for man to attain righteousness by works of the law, note Rom 10:3
For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

Here we see that legalists who determine righteousness by works of the law are:
1: ignorant of God’s righteousness
2: seeking to establish their own righteousness
3: have not submitted to the righteousness of God.

Christians, however, have submitted to God's righteousness.
When Christians received Christ, we admitted we were a sinner deserving of death under the law. We conceded that only one who is righteous can enter into the kingdom of Heaven. Jesus was just such a righteous person. In this we establish the law. It is holy, just and good.
Therefore we humbled ourselves and sought God's mercy.

Fortunately, Christ is the END of the law for righteousness, to everyone who believes, Rom 10:4
We're saved by grace.
And our faith is counted for righteousness, Rom 4:5.

I agree that no flesh is justified by works of the law. They are justified by faith which shows itself in good works
Could you please explain what are the laws in the Law of the Spirit of life , and how are these different to the ones in the 10 commandments?

.

And Jesus tells us that these good works are to believe on Him, John 6:29.

However the 10 commandments do not contradict the law of the Spirit of life

The 10 commandments are part of the law of sin and death (aka law of righteousness or ministry of condemnation/death).

But the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus is about mercy, love, forgiveness.

Note Rom 3:24-29 Note here the highlighted points.
.being justified freelyby His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus

Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

Note here the highlighted points.
justified freelyby His grace
justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

 

[RJ]

Originally Posted by RJ Repentance (2 Cor 7:10) we are not saved from the righteous judgment of God by stopping sin and doing good--that would be salvation by works. We are saved from our sins by trusting in Christ. Again if our repentance was a requirement before salvation that is our works. We have a change in conscienceness toward God, regeneration, then repentance.

Works (James 2:24). Yes but justification is the work of God where the righteousness of Jesus is reckoned to the sinner . It is based completely and solely upon Jesus' sacrifice on the cross 1 Peter 2:24 and is received by faith alone; which all is precluded by God's grace to us....none of our doing.
In the Gospels, John's baptism of repentance came first before belief in Christ.
In Acts 2:38, Peter said repentance and baptism was the first thing they had to do.

I don't think repentance is ever called a "work" in Scripture. Are you trying to say that we don't have to do anything to be saved?
That is right James....you have nothing to do but believe in the Gospel that Paul said he preached: The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you need to call this belief a prerequisite work, if that helps justify you need to do something,then so be it.

Originally Posted by RJ
Faith (Rom 5:1) Faith is a gift or by the grace of God and not a requirement of salvation but a derivative of God;s free grace. Romans 12: 3...Faith is only a result of God's grace alone! Why don't you explain this verse?



In this sense of faith as a gift, aren't all things a gift?- life, air, food, etc. O.K., works for me, all this including you life is a gift. But of course you would say that your life is not by grace but the "works" of your parents!!!...Lol!!! Still not the same as salvation by grace.
Please tell us if it is our faith that saves us or someone else's?
I have exhautively explained in many previous post that you are saved by grace through faith. This faith is from God and not you...it is because of his grace that you have faith...it is his gift to you!..Ephesians 2:8-9......but for your need of a legal system and to perform works of your own, you refuse to listen to me or this verse......It is your faith, no one elses but yours and given to you by God!

Originally Posted by RJ
Mercy (Titus 3:5) Wow James, this is so odd of you...this verse actually argues against your stance on works required for salvation and clearly this "Mercy" is by God's grace alone.
Grace (Titus 3:7) Same as mercy above.



The word's "grace alone" do not appear in these verses at all. It says we are saved by His mercy and the Holy Spirit in this verse.
OH James, you are so far hopelessly lost to your need to perform works for you to justify your salvation. God does not want your justification because it is as filthy rags to him..Isaiah 64:6. Only his justification towards you counts....absolutely nothing from you counts! You keep harping that the scriptures do not say " grace alone"...so what? Look at both the Titus verses....does Mercy not come from him alone? What then is mercy but his grace toward us! We are justified by his grace...certainly not your works!!!. What then is this grace if not from him and this is what saves you alone!

Originally Posted by RJ
Baptism (1 Peter 3:21). You are a Immersion Regenerationist by your works and I am not.



I don't think it matters what you or I am, it only matters what God's Word says, in this case it says:
1 Peter 3:21 "....this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you..." That is your interpretation ( or one which has been taught you by another man) and a good one to satisfy your thirst for works. It is obvious that many people were baptised in those days. I say this scripture says that it is not the water that does anything because all it can do is wash off dirt on the outside. You are saved from the inside by you change in consciencesness toward God.

 

[james1523]

I don't think repentance is ever called a "work" in Scripture. Are you trying to say that we don't have to do anything to be saved?
That is right James....you have nothing to do but believe in the Gospel that Paul said he preached: The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If you need to call this belief a prerequisite work, if that helps justify you need to do something,then so be it.

I don't see repentance as a work, because it is basically a change of heart. I also don't see belief as a work, because belief is also in the heart. So I don't think repentance occurring before belief, is actually a work that comes before salvation - it is part of salvation. When they asked Peter what to do to be saved, Peter said "repent". Peter had no issue with them repenting first, it was not considered a work or against salvation by grace. Because it is God's grace that enables a person to repent and believe.

In this sense of faith as a gift, aren't all things a gift?- life, air, food, etc. O.K., works for me, all this including you life is a gift. But of course you would say that your life is not by grace but the "works" of your parents!!!...Lol!!! Still not the same as salvation by grace.
Please tell us if it is our faith that saves us or someone else's?
I have exhautively explained in many previous post that you are saved by grace through faith. This faith is from God and not you...it is because of his grace that you have faith...it is his gift to you!..Ephesians 2:8-9......but for your need of a legal system and to perform works of your own, you refuse to listen to me or this verse......It is your faith, no one elses but yours and given to you by God!

That's a good point actually, is life given from our parents or from God? I think it must be both.
I consult a number of bible commentaries and they say that the gift in Eph 2:8-9 is referring to the grace and salvation, not the faith. Faith is a general gift given by God to every man (Rom 12:3), just as God gives the air, and rain and sunshine too. So I think Eph 2:8-9 refers to saving grace as the gift. I call it saving grace to distinguish it from God's general grace in giving good things to all of mankind, like air, rain and sunshine.

The word's "grace alone" do not appear in these verses at all. It says we are saved by His mercy and the Holy Spirit in this verse.
OH James, you are so far hopelessly lost to your need to perform works for you to justify your salvation. God does not want your justification because it is as filthy rags to him..Isaiah 64:6. Only his justification towards you counts....absolutely nothing from you counts! You keep harping that the scriptures do not say " grace alone"...so what? Look at both the Titus verses....does Mercy not come from him alone? What then is mercy but his grace toward us! We are justified by his grace...certainly not your works!!!. What then is this grace if not from him and this is what saves you alone!

If it is not from us how can it be "our faith"? There is something from us that counts and that is our faith which has been given to us by God. That's why I asked whose faith is it? It is our faith and it comes from us, and yes it is given to us by God originally but so? everything comes from God originally.

1 Peter 3:21 "....this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you..." That is your interpretation ( or one which has been taught you by another man) and a good one to satisfy your thirst for works. It is obvious that many people were baptised in those days. I say this scripture says that it is not the water that does anything because all it can do is wash off dirt on the outside. You are saved from the inside by you change in consciencesness toward God.

It is true that the water does nothing of itself, however without water it would not be baptism. Baptism is both the spiritual aspect and the visible aspect (water). The point is it says baptism saves us. It means the change of conscience AND the water which it symbolizes saves us. Without the water, a change of conscience is impractical. Saying only the invisible part of baptism saves us, and the water does nothing, is like saying that only the invisible part of Christ's crucifixion saves us, and that his physical crucifixion did nothing except kill Him. But we know that it was both the spiritual and the physical aspects of the crucifixion which saves us. Now is a good time to quite the old favorite James 2:22 "You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. "

 

[RJ]

James,

• That's a good point actually, is life given from our parents or from God? I think it must be both. Actually I think it is much more complicated than we know but, definetly by God...especially if you include the " I knitted you in the womb" idea. Look at it this way:

1. Take any cell of man and look at it under a microscope and see some of the elements that separate us from other forms of life.
2. But blow that up and get down to the elemental bascis like nuetrons, protons, atoms down to the HyperPhysics and you have smallest of the quarks and leptons.
3. Now, compare ,at the HyperPhysics level, any cell in life, trees, grass, humans, any animal, anything and all the cells look alike and you can not distinguish them from one another. Explain that!

• I don't see repentance as a work, because it is basically a change of heart. I also don't see belief as a work, because belief is also in the heart. So I don't think repentance occurring before belief, is actually a work that comes before salvation - it is part of salvation. When they asked Peter what to do to be saved, Peter said "repent". Peter had no issue with them repenting first, it was not considered a work or against salvation by grace. Because it is God's grace that enables a person to repent and believe. James, God gave us the power to reason. Repent is: to feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin. I don't think it is all that important but really, how do you have sincere regret with out having a change in beleif first. But, at least you admit that either way it is by God's geace alone first....Lol!
• If it is not from us how can it be "our faith"? There is something from us that counts and that is our faith which has been given to us by God. That's why I asked whose faith is it? It is our faith and it comes from us, and yes it is given to us by God originally but so? everything comes from God originally. Romans 12:3 ; Romans 12:6 The point is "Yes", it is your own faith but the point is it is a gift from God or by only his grace alone that you have it! A non-believer does not have your faith, why...because God hasn't given it to him yet!
• It is true that the water does nothing of itself, however without water it would not be baptism. Baptism is both the spiritual aspect and the visible aspect (water). The point is it says baptism saves us. It means the change of conscience AND the water which it symbolizes saves us. Without the water, a change of conscience is impractical. Saying only the invisible part of baptism saves us, and the water does nothing, is like saying that only the invisible part of Christ's crucifixion saves us, and that his physical crucifixion did nothing except kill Him. But we know that it was both the spiritual and the physical aspects of the crucifixion which saves us. Now is a good time to quite the old favorite James 2:22 "You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. " OH James, there you go again! It is Faith and salvation first, then works of God through you; it can work no other way than by grace only! God works through those who love him. Of course we live in a physical world and we do physical things out of love for him but don't separate this from the spiritual. He is the vine and in us spiritually and witout him we can do nothing, believe it!!! Yes, James 2:22 : You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works....but works after salvation...nothing to do with work before salvation.
  
  

 

[Jehonadab]

All too often men speak as though they understand Paul but have not taken time to understand that Old Law as did Paul. That leads to some wild interpretations of what Paul means. Paul was a lawyer of that Old Law trained up at the feet of one of the renowned teachers of that Old Law, Gamaliel. Paul did not scrap what he learned by that Old Law but instead showed us how it is to be used of the spirit in Christ, free by grace from the penalties that Old Law dispensed without regard to the ignorance in us. The Old Law Covenant was about exposing that ignorance. Romans 7:11; Romans 7:13; Galatians 3:19; Hosea 4:6 * The New Covenant is about healing that ignorance in us.

Clearly, the context of 1 Peter 3 shows that the baptism Peter speaks of in 1 Peter 3:21 corresponds to the ark of our salvation as was pictured by Noah's ark. Our ark of salvation is Jesus Christ and not literal water. 1 Peter 3:20-21 The baptism Peter there speaks concerning is a like figure unto that ark and that ark pictured the body of Christ. Once in Christ our ark of salvation we are then plunged deep into the water of God's word, Ephesians 5:26, through which we are transported over a period of time to our salvation, even as were Noah and his family.

Therefore, the baptism to which Peter at 1 Peter 3:21 refers can be no other than this one: Romans 6:3-7

What then is literal water baptism? A mere symbolization, (or, public profession like a vow), that we undertake to die with Christ that we might learn to live by his righteous spirit.

It only takes tiny pieces of missed understanding to deflect our learning off onto an imaginary journey. Hosea 4:6

Post number 5. which I entered under the topic 'Left Behind' somewhat compliments this one.

 

[B-A-C]

An erroneous belief that man sins because he genetically inherited a sin nature which he is powerless to.

Well I personally believe this from a certain perspective.

Rom 5:12; Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Rom 5:19; For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Psa 51:5; For I was born a sinner— yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

Exod 20:5; You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me.

The part about "powerless to..." I believe we in ourselves are powerless, but I believe we can do all things through Him who strengthens me.
We have been made more than conquerors it's true, we don't have to be a slave to sin any longer. But still, it's a choice we make daily.

 

[Jehonadab]

Well I personally believe this from a certain perspective.

Rom 5:12; Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Rom 5:19; For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

Psa 51:5; For I was born a sinner— yes, from the moment my mother conceived me.

Exod 20:5; You must not bow down to them or worship them, for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God who will not tolerate your affection for any other gods. I lay the sins of the parents upon their children; the entire family is affected—even children in the third and fourth generations of those who reject me.

The part about "powerless to..." I believe we in ourselves are powerless, but I believe we can do all things through Him who strengthens me.
We have been made more than conquerors it's true, we don't have to be a slave to sin any longer. But still, it's a choice we make daily.

But the translation you quote of Psalms 51:5 (For I was born a sinner— yes, from the moment my mother conceived me"), is an obliteration of that verse. Not at all what it says.

I have said before that we must interpret David consistent to his thought in the verse which follows to complete his thought: Psalms 51:6 “Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.” (KJV)

Notice the way Today's New International Version obliterates both of those verses: Psalms 51:5-6 “Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Yet you desired faithfulness even in the womb; you taught me wisdom in that secret place.”

Today's New International version would have you believe that while yet in your mother's womb you not only were already committing sin but were being taught God's wisdom at the same time. Look up and ponder all of the occurrences of the words, "ignorance" and "ignorant" and "ignorantly". You will see what causes sin. What is ignorance to you? Is it not a lack of knowledge and wisdom? Remember what Hosea said? Hosea 4:6 (Compare:

And the further one pushes this the more they figure out all the evidence the Bible furnishes is against the idea of being a sinner right in the womb before birth.

Who wants you to believe you were born already a sinner? 1 John 3:8 “He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.”

Satan wants you to think you were born already his child.

There is no such thing as sin before it is committed: 1 John 3:4 “Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.”

Not you nor anyone can commit sin before they are even born, else the following could not be true: Romans 9:11 “(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth”

Sin was in the world by corruption of mankind's knowledge and not in any man before that man sinned. The problem is that it has such a hold on this world that all men sin very quickly after being born into it, having a corrupted source of knowledge and wisdom setting the path of their feet.

Where is sin before the law? Romans 5:13 “(For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.” That means among men, in the world.

Why was sin in the world? Acts 17:30 "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent". Sin was in the world by man's ignorance, (his lack of pure knowledge and true wisdom). And now just as then,
Ephesians 4:18 “Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart”

This idea of being sinners in our flesh and blood mother's womb is without any scriptural support for all the evidence of scripture is the opposite. What makes it possibly confusing is that they viewed Jerusalem's womb as a place of being shapen like Paul speaks of at Galatians 1:15 and 1 Corinthians 15:8 and Galatians 4:19-31


In so far as Romans 5:12 and Romans 5:19, it only takes one man who was meant to teach his children to corrupt his own knowledge and so be only able to teach his children corruption.

That is how God lays the sin of the parents on their children. He does not take the children away from them, instead letting them teach their children.

And that is because there is much man learns from that which can help man see his error via his children.

It was very difficult for me also when God first began teaching me this. And he did so directly. I did not learn any of it through any other human. I won't go into the details however as most would simply think I was lying out of pride and besides that I am not particularly proud of how it came about. It amazes me how great God's love is that he would even consider me as foolish as I was and as many people I hurt of a self-righteous zeal. But he crushed my spirit and then took personal care to build me back up his way. In return to my inquires as to why he would do such a thing I received from him two words in reply. The first was because he could. The second was 1 Corinthians 1:26-31.

So I expect you will have a hard time with this just as I did but I also know the truth of it is so powerful that your old idea will eventually fall as did mine. But then that is because thus far I have only been giving out teaspoons concerning it.

There is much more that God stored up in me but it must be delivered in a patient manner that helps the picture best unfold to you as easy as possible.

When I ask you to go reconsider sections of scripture please take it seriously as I am delivering it to you with the patience that God himself delivered it to me.

The fact that I am associated with no named religion of this earth takes away man's ability to shut me down by bias of religious affiliation.

That is why God is using me. He is giving you every chance and you all were making it difficult by the feuding and bias between your religions.

I am a member of the free church above and it only: Hebrews 12:22-29


What did Jesus say was responsible for the sins of the Pharisees? That they genetically inherited sin in their flesh and blood birth mother's womb? Or that they learned sin? John 8:38 "I speak that which I have seen with my Father: and ye do that which ye have seen with your father."

Children naturally desire to please the desire of their father which they have learned from him, thus, John 8:39 "They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham."

And that is why Jesus told them, John 8:44-45 "Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not."

Now, John said, 1 John 3:8 "He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

Since many claim we were all sinners in our natural flesh and blood birth mother's womb, does that then mean we were all children of the devil when we were in our natural flesh and blood birth mother's womb?

The more one inspects that idea the more it loses credibility.


Genesis 5:1 "This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him"

It is not only interesting that Genesis 5:1 completely disproves the literal 24 hour creative day belief, but it leaves little room for the genetically inherited sin unless we believe God has sin in him, also.

 

[james1523]

James,

• That's a good point actually, is life given from our parents or from God? I think it must be both. Actually I think it is much more complicated than we know but, definetly by God...especially if you include the " I knitted you in the womb" idea. Look at it this way:

1. Take any cell of man and look at it under a microscope and see some of the elements that separate us from other forms of life.
2. But blow that up and get down to the elemental bascis like nuetrons, protons, atoms down to the HyperPhysics and you have smallest of the quarks and leptons.
3. Now, compare ,at the HyperPhysics level, any cell in life, trees, grass, humans, any animal, anything and all the cells look alike and you can not distinguish them from one another. Explain that!

• I don't see repentance as a work, because it is basically a change of heart. I also don't see belief as a work, because belief is also in the heart. So I don't think repentance occurring before belief, is actually a work that comes before salvation - it is part of salvation. When they asked Peter what to do to be saved, Peter said "repent". Peter had no issue with them repenting first, it was not considered a work or against salvation by grace. Because it is God's grace that enables a person to repent and believe. James, God gave us the power to reason. Repent is: to feel or express sincere regret or remorse about one's wrongdoing or sin. I don't think it is all that important but really, how do you have sincere regret with out having a change in beleif first. But, at least you admit that either way it is by God's geace alone first....Lol!
• If it is not from us how can it be "our faith"? There is something from us that counts and that is our faith which has been given to us by God. That's why I asked whose faith is it? It is our faith and it comes from us, and yes it is given to us by God originally but so? everything comes from God originally. Romans 12:3 ; Romans 12:6 The point is "Yes", it is your own faith but the point is it is a gift from God or by only his grace alone that you have it! A non-believer does not have your faith, why...because God hasn't given it to him yet!
• It is true that the water does nothing of itself, however without water it would not be baptism. Baptism is both the spiritual aspect and the visible aspect (water). The point is it says baptism saves us. It means the change of conscience AND the water which it symbolizes saves us. Without the water, a change of conscience is impractical. Saying only the invisible part of baptism saves us, and the water does nothing, is like saying that only the invisible part of Christ's crucifixion saves us, and that his physical crucifixion did nothing except kill Him. But we know that it was both the spiritual and the physical aspects of the crucifixion which saves us. Now is a good time to quite the old favorite James 2:22 "You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did. " OH James, there you go again! It is Faith and salvation first, then works of God through you; it can work no other way than by grace only! God works through those who love him. Of course we live in a physical world and we do physical things out of love for him but don't separate this from the spiritual. He is the vine and in us spiritually and witout him we can do nothing, believe it!!! Yes, James 2:22 : You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works....but works after salvation...nothing to do with work before salvation.
  
  

The scripture says Abraham believed God. But people forget, or maybe don't realize, that Abraham's strong belief in God is following a long period of Abraham worshipping and seeking and obeying God. Have we ever thought why and how Abraham came to believe in God...was this wishful thinking? Hoping? Blind faith? No, I believe the source of genuine saving faith is the seeking, interaction, the dialogue, and the fellowship between God and man. After the fall, this was initiated by man, not by God. Gen 4:26 "Then men began to call upon the name of the LORD".

Our faith is because of our seeking God. God sought Adam and Eve in the garden after the fall. And Gen 4:26 is the first record of us seeking God. We, as fallen beings, sought God first - God did not seek us, because God hid Himself from fallen mankind (Isaiah 45:15). We offended God greatly, and because of this, we needed to be the ones to seek Him and return back to Him, and God was waiting patiently for this. God in Creation, did put something inside each person, so that they may seek Him - He gave them a conscience.

After Adam and Eve sinned, there was a long period of quietness in terms of interaction between God and man. God wanted mankind to seek Him and find Him (Acts 17:27). Abraham was one such man, in Genesis 12:8 , Abraham built an altar and prayed to God. Abraham through his own reasoning powers, intelligence and God-given conscience, realized that the idols he and those around him worshiped were nothing, and he realized that there was only one God.

It was for this reason that God came to Abraham and made him many promises.

God also loved Abraham because Abraham obeyed and taught His commands, justice and judgements:

Genesis 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of theLord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

I keep getting vibes of 5 point Calvinism coming from your posts, Presbyterian or Southern baptist background? Eventually we will be debating about God's sovereignty and free will. Maybe you see salvation as what God does for us. I see it as what God does for us and what we do in response to that. How can I tie this back to the original intent of this thread? Quite easily - Luther, who believed in salvation by faith alone, did not believe there was nothing we had to do. He believed that a genuine saving faith will result in obedience and good works, and especially to keeping the morality of the law as is contained in (but not limited to) the 10 commandments. Faith and obedience is not parts of salvation, it is salvation.

You say an unbeliever does not have "my faith", but think about Romans 12:3 that says God gave every person a measure of faith. It's not God's fault that a person doesn't believe in Him, He did not withhold a gift of faith from any person, it is their fault because they did not obey the Gospel (Rom 10:16).

What did God tell us that we have to do to be saved? The answer is obvious: repent, believe, be baptized, receive the Holy Spirit.. in no particular order. Not one of the apostles said "there is nothing you have to do". Peter said "..be baptized and call on His name" (Acts 22:16). Acts 22:16 is a classical example of an evangelical sermon and it alone disproves everything you say about salvation being by "faith only".

God doing everything will only take us so far. It includes His mercy, love, Christ, the cross, etc. Then it's our turn. Hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized, obey, endure...God is definitely involved in these things, but He doesn't do them for us.

Yes, everything is from God originally, and everything is in God. But we also need to see that humans have responsibility, as being made in the image of God with a conscience. Animals don't have a conscience, they do not seek God, they cannot obey God, they don't know right from wrong. When a person (usually a Calvinist) says they are saved by God alone and faith alone, they are effectively saying that human beings are like animals, unable to do anything.

But the salvation story in mankind's history goes something like this:
God created man, man fell, God sought Adam and Eve after they fell, God hid Himself, mankind grew corrupt because God had hid Himself, except for one person, Noah, God chose Noah because Noah was a righteous man, mankind sought God, some found Him, such as Abraham. Because Abraham found God, God made many promises to him, and because of those promises, Abraham believed God, and because Abraham believed God, God considered him righteous. His righteousness was proven or completed, about 25 or so years later, by works, when Abraham offered His son on the altar in obedience to God's request. For this reason I believe salvation is coming from the interaction and fellowship between God and man and cannot be attributed to God or man alone. And all of these things are covered by God's "general grace", the grace that doesn't destroy the whole human race.

Here lies the problem. You could pick any point in history, with a bible verse, that shows God giving something to Abraham, and say "see, it is God's grace alone, we do nothing". I could pick any point in history that shows God giving some blessing in response to obedience and say "see, it is by our works alone we are saved". But both views are wrong, because we are inserting the word "alone" in there, making them exclusive and absolute statements. But clearly, it is by both God's grace and by us "doing something" that we are saved. This is what I believe James means by faith and actions working together. Faith leads to actions, and also it is true that actions lead to faith. How can we say that nothing we did led to us believing in Christ? Maybe we received and picked up and read the Bible or gospel tract, maybe we listened to a TV program, watched a movie, or maybe we listened to a friend or pastor or family member, maybe we went to church, maybe we came to know Christ by doing works of charity, maybe we were unsure if God existed and tried to pray, and this led to our faith in Christ. These are all examples of works before salvation.

 

[RJ]

The scripture says Abraham believed God. But people forget, or maybe don't realize, that Abraham's strong belief in God is following a long period of Abraham worshipping and seeking and obeying God. Have we ever thought why and how Abraham came to believe in God...was this wishful thinking? Hoping? Blind faith? No, I believe the source of genuine saving faith is the seeking, interaction, the dialogue, and the fellowship between God and man. After the fall, this was initiated by man, not by God. Gen 4:26 "Then men began to call upon the name of the LORD". I think that the most sigificant thing here is that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow: Hebrews 13:8
And also, he calls us first: 1 Peter 5:10 and John 6:44.
Our faith is because of our seeking God. God sought Adam and Eve in the garden after the fall. And Gen 4:26 is the first record of us seeking God. We, as fallen beings, sought God first - God did not seek us, because God hid Himself from fallen mankind (Isaiah 45:15). We offended God greatly, and because of this, we needed to be the ones to seek Him and return back to Him, and God was waiting patiently for this. God in Creation, did put something inside each person, so that they may seek Him - He gave them a conscience.

After Adam and Eve sinned, there was a long period of quietness in terms of interaction between God and man. God wanted mankind to seek Him and find Him (Acts 17:27). Abraham was one such man, in Genesis 12:8, Abraham built an altar and prayed to God. Abraham through his own reasoning powers, intelligence and God-given conscience, realized that the idols he and those around him worshiped were nothing, and he realized that there was only one God.

It was for this reason that God came to Abraham and made him many promises.

God also loved Abraham because Abraham obeyed and taught His commands, justice and judgements:

Genesis 18:19 For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of theLord, to do justice and judgment; that the Lord may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

I keep getting vibes of 5 point Calvinism coming from your posts, Presbyterian or Southern baptist background? No, I am not a Baptist or believe baptism is required for salvation. I am a Christian first and non-denominational second. I definetly, could care less who Calvin was, I just personally rely on the Holy Spirit and God's word. Eventually we will be debating about God's sovereignty and free will. Maybe you see salvation as what God does for us. I see it as what God does for us and what we do in response to that. Yes his grace first then our faith and our response after salvation, unless we wish to boast about anything before hand. How can I tie this back to the original intent of this thread? Quite easily - Luther, who believed in salvation by faith alone, did not believe there was nothing we had to do. He believed that a genuine saving faith will result in obedience and good works, and especially to keeping the morality of the law as is contained in (but not limited to) the 10 commandments. Faith and obedience is not parts of salvation, it is salvation. Comes after salvation, unless, in fact, your faith is dead!

You say an unbeliever does not have "my faith", but think about Romans 12:3 that says God gave every person a measure of faith. Oh James!!!...Yes, for only those who believe James..unbeliever's Do Not recieve faith. How in God's creation can a man have faith who does not believe. Atheists have no faith!
It's not God's fault that a person doesn't believe in Him, He did not withhold a gift of faith from any person, it is their fault because they did not obey the Gospel (Rom 10:16). Yes, faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God...all initiated by God not man!!! It is his "living Word" Sure the free gift of faith is for any who beleive and receive it. God credited Abrahams righteousness because of his belief.
What did God tell us that we have to do to be saved? The answer is obvious: repent, believe, be baptized, receive the Holy Spirit.. in no particular order. So, you are saying here that you actually can be saved, recieve the Holy Spirit before being baptised? I agree! Not one of the apostles said "there is nothing you have to do". Peter said "..be baptized and call on His name" (Acts 22:16). Acts 22:16 is a classical example of an evangelical sermon and it alone disproves everything you say about salvation being by "faith only". James, Acts is a historical document and not a gospel or devive theology...neither of these Acts verses conclude that you Must do this to be saved. But, Paul did say how: blieve in the death , burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ and you will be save. Acts is not a Messenger of God per se, Paul is.

God doing everything will only take us so far. It includes His mercy, love, Christ, the cross, etc. Then it's our turn. Hear, believe, repent, confess, be baptized, obey, endure...God is definitely involved in these things, but He doesn't do them for us. Lol...God says his grace is sufficient but you (everything you need) but you refuse that and are still stuck in your need for works before salvation.

Yes, everything is from God originally, and everything is in God. But we also need to see that humans have responsibility, as being made in the image of God with a conscience. Animals don't have a conscience, they do not seek God, they cannot obey God, they don't know right from wrong. When a person (usually a Calvinist) says they are saved by God alone and faith alone, they are effectively saying that human beings are like animals, unable to do anything. This is silly!

But the salvation story in mankind's history goes something like this:
God created man, man fell, God sought Adam and Eve after they fell, God hid Himself, mankind grew corrupt because God had hid Himself, except for one person, Noah, God chose Noah because Noah was a righteous man, mankind sought God, some found Him, such as Abraham. Because Abraham found God, God made many promises to him, and because of those promises, Abraham believed God, and because Abraham believed God, God considered him righteous. His righteousness was proven or completed, about 25 or so years later, by works, when Abraham offered His son on the altar in obedience to God's request. For this reason I believe salvation is coming from the interaction and fellowship between God and man and cannot be attributed to God or man alone. And all of these things are covered by God's "general grace", the grace that doesn't destroy the whole human race. Again, James, you must not define God's grace for your theology. God said his grace is sufficient, why do you search for more than his grace? 2 Corinthians 12:9 9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may rest on me....James do not boast about your works; boast about your weakness and fully rely on his grace!

Here lies the problem. You could pick any point in history, with a bible verse, that shows God giving something to Abraham, and say "see, it is God's grace alone, we do nothing". I could pick any point in history that shows God giving some blessing in response to obedience and say "see, it is by our works alone we are saved". But both views are wrong, because we are inserting the word "alone" in there, making them exclusive and absolute statements. But clearly, it is by both God's grace and by us "doing something" that we are saved. This is what I believe James means by faith and actions working together. Faith leads to actions, and also it is true that actions lead to faith. How can we say that nothing we did led to us believing in Christ? Maybe we received and picked up and read the Bible or gospel tract, maybe we listened to a TV program, watched a movie, or maybe we listened to a friend or pastor or family member, maybe we went to church, maybe we came to know Christ by doing works of charity, maybe we were unsure if God existed and tried to pray, and this led to our faith in Christ. These are all examples of works before salvation.

No, here is the problem as I see it: your belief keeps you in bondage to your own works. I pray that you fully understand the true freedom and peace of God's grace alone! Hebrews 4:16

 

[Jehonadab]

No, here is the problem as I see it: your belief keeps you in bondage to your own works. I pray that you fully understand the true freedom and peace of God's grace alone! Hebrews 4:16

You speak abusively of things you do not understand. How one does those works, whether with their own wisdom derived of their own righteousness -- or -- of God's wisdom derived of God's righteousness which we found in Christ, that is the issue you avoid. You conceal God's knowledge and wisdom from men rather than scatter it like seed. And that is likely because you do not have that seed in you. 1 John 3:9

That seed is the seed of knowledge. It is the seed that you must have in you before you can scatter it to others.

So, you probably look at as though I said you don't have the love of Christ in you. Or, even as though I said you don't have Christ in you, if you see that seed only as Christ.

The seed remains in us because once we receive the words from God which bring us forth to life, we treasure those words in our hearts so that we both know and obey them and share them.

The soil in which God sows his seed is the hearts of men, ya, the hearts of men are God's soil into which he sows: Matthew 13:19 “When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.”


Compare the following with Matt. 13:19 and care to think it through: 1 John 3:9 “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.”


When you guys read, 1 Peter 1:23 “Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever”, your brains see that as meaning not born of a human who has corruptible flesh but of Jesus who is an incorruptible spirit. But it is not speaking of that. It is speaking of being born of the life giving spoken words of God which shall never fail as our own do. Compare: 2 Corinthians 9:10; 1 Peter 1:23; Acts 5:20; John 17:8; John 6:68; John 6:63



You keep yourselves so closed off from true understanding because you are filled up by thinking you already know. You don't know and it is time you started waking up to that so that you become willing to listen so that you can know.

I laid this out to you in two separate visits deliberately so you could see how your hearts trick you. When there only was the first paragraph you were not able to understand it. Your hearts trickerd you. And that happens to you far more often than you know, always for the same reason. That seed of understanding is lacking yet in your hearts.

 

[B-A-C]

It is sometimes difficult not to be passionate about things we feel strongly about. I too am sometimes guilty here.
It's OK to correct others, but we should do it with patience and love.

2 Tim 3:16; All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
2 Tim 4:2; preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

Gal 5:22; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23; gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

 

[B-A-C]

No, here is the problem as I see it: your belief keeps you in bondage to your own works. I pray that you fully understand the true freedom and peace of God's grace alone! Hebrews 4:16

There is a difference between how you get saved, and how you should walk after you are saved.
I think we can all agree, no one is saved by works. None of us can be so sinless that we can make it to heaven on our own.
Although I do know some people who say "I'm a good person, so I'm OK, I don't really need all that Jesus stuff."

On the other hand, after we get saved, are some works required?
James 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Is it possible some people will believe in Jesus and not be saved?
Matt 7;21;“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Salvation by grace and faith alone is a different thing from walking the christian walk by grace and faith alone.
Does Jesus judge anyone? Some people don't seem to think so.

John 5:22; For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son
John 5:27; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

And what will Jesus judge us on? What we say we believe, or by our actions?The next two verses give the answer.

John 5:28; Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

2 Cor 5:10; For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Is saying I believe in Jesus enough? Well it's enough to get saved.
Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But is it enough to keep you from judgment after you are saved?
Matt 7:18; A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
Matt 7:19; Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Some people think this just means an "unsaved tree", but this wasn't just any tree, this was the masters tree in the masters garden, ( Luke 13:6; )
Two verses later Jesus says...

Matt 7:21; Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Matt 7:22; Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

These weren't non-believers. (They called Him "Lord, Lord" and did things in His name) So what was different about them from the other believers?

The freedom that is Christ, is not the freedom to do whatever you want. It is freedom from death, it is freedom from being dependent on the law for righteousness, it is freedom from being as slave to sin, it is freedom of grace when we make mistakes. However it is not freedom to sin whenever you want.

Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into an excuse to sin and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

Some people take 1 verse about something and leave other verses about the same thing out of their theology.
John 3:16; “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

...and so, that's all they need to do in order to have eternal life. Now while it's true that believing in Jesus is a requirement for eternal life, it's not the only one.
Matt 19:17; And He said to him, “Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments.”

 

[RJ]

There is a difference between how you get saved, and how you should walk after you are saved.
I think we can all agree, no one is saved by works. None of us can be so sinless that we can make it to heaven on our own.
Although I do know some people who say "I'm a good person, so I'm OK, I don't really need all that Jesus stuff."

On the other hand, after we get saved, are some works required?
James 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Is it possible some people will believe in Jesus and not be saved?
Matt 7;21;“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

Salvation by grace and faith alone is a different thing from walking the christian walk by grace and faith alone.
Does Jesus judge anyone?Some people don't seem to think so.

John 5:22; For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son
John 5:27; and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man.

And what will Jesus judge us on? What we say we believe, or by our actions?The next two verses give the answer.

John 5:28; Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

2 Cor 5:10; For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

Is saying I believe in Jesus enough? Well it's enough to get saved.
Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

But is it enough to keep you from judgment after you are saved?
Matt 7:18; A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
Matt 7:19; Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Some people think this just means an "unsaved tree", but this wasn't just any tree, this was the masters tree in the masters garden, ( Luke 13;6; )
Two verses later Jesus says...

Matt 7:21; Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.Matt 7:22; Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

These weren't non-believers. (They called Him "Lord, Lord" and did things in His name) So what was different about them from the other believers?

The freedom that is Christ, is not the freedom to do whatever you want. It is freedom from death, it is freedom from being dependent on the law for righteousness, it is freedom from being as slave to sin, it is freedom of grace when we make mistakes. However it is not freedom to sin whenever you want.

Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into an excuse to sin and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.

• There is a difference between how you get saved, and how you should walk after you are saved.
  I think we can all agree, no one is saved by works. Well I certainly agree but others here do not!
• On the other hand, after we get saved, are some works required? Yes but here is a contention of much debate. You might get some leaglists say no works before salvation. But the works after salvation, they say are there works...if you are doing things for God...it is Your works. Though I can't explain it exactly how, the works after salvation are of the Holy Spirit and not of man. I don't know why they refuse to see this but it is clear to in John 15:5.
• James 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. O.K. another contention here; here is what I believe and others do not: Justification ( just as if you have never sinned) comes after salvation which is by God alone and none of your doing unless you could boast. Sure God justifies you. One of the very first works he justifies you by your belief. If you do not have such work, your faith is dead and you are still lost to your original unbelief. Don't you know that there a Christians ( in name only) in every church who are, in fact, still non-believers and unaved?
• Is it possible some people will believe in Jesus and not be saved? There are those who have head knowledge of Jesus, orthodox Jews for one. They know of Jesus but do not know Jesus. To know Jesus, you must be a heart Christian, believe in him they way the Bible describes....So believing in Jesus in the Biblical since, then no it is not possible not to be saved. Remember the only un-forgivable sin is that of unbelief///all other sins can be forgiven!
• Does Jesus judge anyone?Some people don't seem to think so. Of course he judges but what do you suppose his main criteria for judgement would be? The Bible is littered with discussions of separating: Wheat from Chaff, Wheat from Tares, good from bad, right from the left and sheep from goats..etc.. Don't you suppose these all are analogus of seprating out the believers from the believers? After all, what is heaven if not for the believer only!!! I like your supporting verse here:
• These weren't non-believers.(They called Him "Lord, Lord" and did things in His name) So what was different about them from the other believers? OH, yes they are! Again, do you think that every person in this life who says Lord -Lord or call themselves Christians are actually saved? How could Jesus react to them the way he does if they are saved? Remember, if Christ is not in you, you actually are doing nothing, no matter what "wonderful" things other men see you do...God knows! I like your supporting verse here: Jude 1:4; For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into an excuse to sin and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ
• The freedom that is Christ, is not the freedom to do whatever you want. It is freedom from death, it is freedom from being dependent on the law for righteousness, it is freedom from being as slave to sin, it is freedom of grace when we make mistakes. However it is not freedom to sin whenever you want. Oh, very much agreed on all accounts! But others will not agree on every point as I do!
  
  

 

[Jehonadab]

It is sometimes difficult not to be passionate about things we feel strongly about. I too am sometimes guilty here.
It's OK to correct others, but we should do it with patience and love.

2 Tim 3:16; All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
2 Tim 4:2; preach the word; be ready in season and out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort, with great patience and instruction.

Gal 5:22; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23; gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.

If that is aimed at me, now that you have the whole thing edited by me into my post 32 you should be able to see that your heart tricked you, too.

How much more patience and love could one have than to reveal it to you as I did there? Believe me when I tell you the only emotion in me is sadness for their blindness and love enough to want to help them see what they are doing and why.

The clues were all in that first paragraph but you were all blinded by what you don't know. And that comes of thinking you do know when you don't.

They may not apply to you and what you said, as you may be speaking of Rj's approach, but it illustrates something we all need to be aware of. So please do not take it that I am saying what I said here is true of you. I have no way to know as you did not name the person to whom your words were aimed.

 

[B-A-C]

These weren't non-believers.(They called Him "Lord, Lord" and did things in His name) So what was different about them from the other believers? OH, yes they are! Again, do you think that every person in this life who says Lord -Lord or call themselves Christians are actually saved?

I noticed we used two different words, I said "non-believers", you said "actually saved". That was my point, all believers aren't saved.
Mormons are believers, Jehovah's witnesses are believers, Unitarians are believers, for that matter even Muslims believe in Jesus.

Jas 2:19; You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

 

[RJ]

I noticed we used two different words, I said "non-believers", you said "actually saved". That was my point, all believers aren't saved.
Mormons are believers, Jehovah's witnesses are believers, Unitarians are believers, for that matter even Muslims believe in Jesus.

Jas 2:19; You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

Several of these groups do not believe in the Trinity or that Jesus is God. So, are any of these groups Christians as we understand it from our Bible. Have they blasphemed the Holy Spirit or, do they have the Holy Spirit in them as a sign of their salvation?....Only God truly knows. Like I tried to say: On judgement day, all of us will be judged first and foremost if Christ is in us. The ones saying "Lord-Lord" do not have Christ in them, I don't care what they believe!
He is in me and I believe in you.

 

[Jehonadab]

Several of these groups do not believe in the Trinity or that Jesus is God. So, are any of these groups Christians as we understand it from our Bible. Have they blasphemed the Holy Spirit or, do they have the Holy Spirit in them as a sign of their salvation?....Only God truly knows. Like I tried to say: On judgement day, all of us will be judged first and foremost if Christ is in us. The ones saying "Lord-Lord" do not have Christ in them, I don't care what they believe!
He is in me and I believe in you.

2 Corinthians 13:5 "Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?"

Reprobate comes from the combination of: 0001 al'fah + 1196 deiknuo (to show); 1380 dokeo (to think); 1384 dokimos (in an acceptable or approvable fashion)

Reprobate, 0096 adokimos, thus literally means: "by how we think, not showing that we are approved." (or not showing by our thinking, that we are approved)

What Paul means above is that Christ is in us due to our knowledge, which knowledge we have of him. 1 Corinthians 2:16; 1 Corinthians 1:24; Colossians 2:3

A modern expression says, 'Knowledge is power.' The Bible teaches that the knowledge we learn from the life of Jesus Christ the man is power.

2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

Philippians 1:9-11 "And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment; That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ; Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God."


I am going to share something else with you for you to rebell at if that is what you wish to do.

When Solomon said, Ecclesiastes 3:18 "I said in mine heart concerning the estate of the sons of men, that God might manifest them, and that they might see that they themselves are beasts", he was not being dogmatic.

I have argued with Jehovah's Witnesses (the most stuborn of people) in the past concerning the stupidity of believing in a gentetically inherited tendency toward sin. I since that time was brought of God to realize a better way to explain that tendency in us which everyone seems to mistake as being an inherited tendency toward sin. And that is the 100% natural condition of man as explained by Solomon there at Ecc. 3:18.

Even before sin entered the world that was true of man. And according to Isaiah it will remain true forever:

Isaiah 11:6 "The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
7 And the cow and the bear shall feed; their young ones shall lie down together: and the lion shall eat straw like the ox.
8 And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.
9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain: for the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea."

Man will always manifest differences in tenacity and other traits and we may as well accept that. The only thing that makes man different is that we are designed to implement God's knowledge and wisdom into our lives so that unlike the lower beasts we can image the love of God among us.

Think about that. Solomon did not lie. Isaiah did not lie. That so-called inherited sin which the Bible never mentions is the totally natural estate of men even before sin. We malign God by calling those traits sin instead of learning to live with each other according to true knowledge.

 

[james1523]

No, here is the problem as I see it: your belief keeps you in bondage to your own works. I pray that you fully understand the true freedom and peace of God's grace alone! Hebrews 4:16

Are you sure you understand God's grace? I think you are confusing God's grace with freedom from human responsibility. Both can give similar feelings of peace and contentment, but one is from God's presence and the other is from a feeling that we don't have to do anything. The Buddhists and others practice the latter by removing themselves from all human responsibility to suffering and pain etc, through ignorance.

This is like those churches that believe God will miraculously protect them when they handle poisonous snakes - they are not truly experiencing God's protection, they are just playing with fate or tempting God. But they think they are experiencing God's power when they do survive snake handling because that's what they've convinced themselves to believe. We can tempt God where it concerns our salvation also - expect or believe He will save us but without obeying Him in the simplest matters such as water baptism. This is under the guise of a false humility and super-spirituality which pretends God to be responsible for everything including our decisions and responsibilities. But God saves us on His terms not ours, and since He has included human responsibility in His salvation plan, then we must go along with what He says and not presume that His grace "alone" saves us without us having to do anything.