Let Us Reason Together?

[Cosmicwaffle]

Understand God, Yes but, come to God because he first gave you the spirit, none of these verses supports God giving you the spirit first before choosing him. Think about it, to have the indwelling of the spirit denotes salvation, to have the spirit before choosing him is no choice at all, it is manipulating and that is not God!

Are we going to be mad at God for choosing to save us?

1 Corinthians 2:14 clearly shows we could not even understand the gospel if it were not for the spirit of God.

 

[RJ]

I'm not taking sides here... seriously. I did just want to point this one thing out though:

Acts 16:14-15
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. 15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought [us], saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide [there]. And she constrained us.

The Lord opened her heart. She didn't have to open the door herself.

Now, in all my experiences with Jesus, he has always been a complete gentleman in the true sense of the word. He is polite and asks others to do things on their own free will, not forcing them. There are times, as a child of God he has been forceful with me, dealing with me as a son. But that's different. I believe that God is the utmost gentleman in how he acts. Nonetheless, Lydia did not have to open her own heart, the Lord opened it for her, so that she could accept the things Paul was preaching. I'm not saying this proves one thing or another, just that it is a point which needs addressing.

Grace to you,

Travis

• No sides taken!
• Honestly, I don't see God opening her heart as an indication that God first gave her his spirit.
• On the other hand, she did latter go through a process of accepting God and then Baptism, perhaps it is then that she recieved God's spirit not before.
• We will have to ask God when we see him "Face to Face"!

Grace, Back to you,
Joe

 

[Travis]

• No sides taken!
• Honestly, I don't see God opening her heart as an indication that God first gave her his spirit.
• On the other hand, she did latter go through a process of accepting God and then Baptism, perhaps it is then that she recieved God's spirit not before.
• We will have to ask God when we see him "Face to Face"!

Grace, Back to you,
Joe

I'm not sure about when she received God's spirit. But, I'm pretty sure based on the text that God opened her heart, not that he knocked first and she opened. Maybe I'm missing something though.

Travis

 

[RJ]

Are we going to be mad at God for choosing to save us?

1 Corinthians 2:14 clearly shows we could not even understand the gospel if it were not for the spirit of God.

• 
  
  • Going to be mad at God? Please, don't be rediculous.
  • You are grabbing at straws here, your Corinthians verse is after the indwelling of the spirit yes and is no proof that God gives you the spirit before you believe.
  • You make a clear choice to accept God and Jesus finished work on the cross and then you are indwelt with the spirit! You accept, you recieve and then you are "Born Again".
  
  
  
  

 

[RJ]

I'm not sure about when she received God's spirit. But, I'm pretty sure based on the text that God opened her heart, not that he knocked first and she opened. Maybe I'm missing something though.

Travis

Like I said, you will just have to ask God someday!

 

[Travis]

Like I said, you will just have to ask God someday!

Ask him what?

 

[RJ]

Like I said, you will just have to ask God someday!

• Did you ever stop to think that maybe God was knocking when he opened her heart to Paul and after hearing Paul, she opened the Door, beleived and recieved the grace of God.
• Don't forget the scripture says she was a worshiper of God. This would have been under the Law and she had not accepted God yet under the New Covenant law of grace.
• How do you repond to Revelation 3:20 ?
• Like I said, you will just have to ask God someday!

 

[RJ]

Ask him what?

I thought you said that maybe you were missing something?
Let's try this again:

• Did you ever stop to think that maybe God was knocking when he opened her heart to Paul and after hearing Paul, she opened the Door, beleived and recieved the grace of God.
• Don't forget the scripture says she was a worshiper of God. This would have been under the Law and she had not accepted God yet under the New Covenant law of grace.
• How do you repond to Revelation 3:20 ?

 

[Travis]

I thought you said that maybe you were missing something?
Let's try this again:

• Did you ever stop to think that maybe God was knocking when he opened her heart to Paul and after hearing Paul, she opened the Door, beleived and recieved the grace of God.
• Don't forget the scripture says she was a worshiper of God. This would have been under the Law and she had not accepted God yet under the New Covenant law of grace.
• How do you repond to Revelation 3:20 ?

Hi Joe,

I guess I will try my best to address each point you brought up.

• Well, I have no problem with the idea of Lydia opening her own heart to the Lord. She definitely didn't resist it. But the scriptures plainly state that the Lord opened her heart, not that she opened her own heart. Perhaps this is getting a little semantical (made that word up), but it does clearly state that the Lord opened her heart. When I address point three, maybe it will also address this point.
• You are right, Lydia was probably a proselyte, a gentile convert to the God of the Jews. She definitely had faith in God. But it does seem that she lacked any knowledge of the things Paul specifically preached, namely the testimony of Jesus Christ.
• Okee Dokee, this is kind of a big question. There are a number of ways to look at this. Hopefully I can address this well,

Revelation 3:14-22 ESV
14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. 15 "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"​

The Laodicean church was apostate in one sense. I think this is universally acknowledged. This church had literally kicked Jesus out of his own church, and was doing their own thing totally apart from God. Kind of reminds me of many of the churches I visit today.

I think perhaps verse 20 is emphasizing this point. The church had so totally and utterly rejected Christ, that he was no longer accepted inside the church, but instead as outside of it, knocking on the door, he was still giving those in this church a chance to come into fellowship with himself. But, because knowing him at one point in time, and then rejecting him, he was doing so from outside the church. How much more of a rebuke to a church than for Jesus to not even come into the midst of it, but to instead stand outside and knock? However, this does show his patience and kindness, that he even still cares about and seeks after those who have rejected him. If anyone hears his voice, and opens the door, then Jesus promises he will sup with them, and they with him.

I do have one question though that perhaps anyone can answer. Those who can hear his voice (Jesus) in this passage of scripture, who opened up their ears and gave them the ability to hear? Or another way of putting it, how does one become one of those, "He who has an ear," people?



Travis

 

[RJ]

Hi Joe,

I guess I will try my best to address each point you brought up.

• Well, I have no problem with the idea of Lydia opening her own heart to the Lord. She definitely didn't resist it. But the scriptures plainly state that the Lord opened her heart, not that she opened her own heart. Perhaps this is getting a little semantical (made that word up), but it does clearly state that the Lord opened her heart. When I address point three, maybe it will also address this point.
• You are right, Lydia was probably a proselyte, a gentile convert to the God of the Jews. She definitely had faith in God. But it does seem that she lacked any knowledge of the things Paul specifically preached, namely the testimony of Jesus Christ.
• Okee Dokee, this is kind of a big question. There are a number of ways to look at this. Hopefully I can address this well,

Revelation 3:14-22 ESV
14 "And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: 'The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God's creation. 15 "'I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth.

17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.

20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.'"​

The Laodicean church was apostate in one sense. I think this is universally acknowledged. This church had literally kicked Jesus out of his own church, and was doing their own thing totally apart from God. Kind of reminds me of many of the churches I visit today.

I think perhaps verse 20 is emphasizing this point. The church had so totally and utterly rejected Christ, that he was no longer accepted inside the church, but instead as outside of it, knocking on the door, he was still giving those in this church a chance to come into fellowship with himself. But, because knowing him at one point in time, and then rejecting him, he was doing so from outside the church. How much more of a rebuke to a church than for Jesus to not even come into the midst of it, but to instead stand outside and knock? However, this does show his patience and kindness, that he even still cares about and seeks after those who have rejected him. If anyone hears his voice, and opens the door, then Jesus promises he will sup with them, and they with him.

I do have one question though that perhaps anyone can answer. Those who can hear his voice (Jesus) in this passage of scripture, who opened up their ears and gave them the ability to hear? Or another way of putting it, how does one become one of those, "He who has an ear," people?


Travis

Hey Travis,

• I suppose the most important, what I think is fact, is that Lydia having here heart opened by God is not that he gave her his spirit, in the sense what Jesus explained to Nicodemus in John. To be "Born Again", as Jesus explained, is to have your second birth or being born of the spirit. If God were to have given Lydia his spirit, that would be the same as being born again and she would have had no reason to here Paul. For me, she recieved the Holy Spirit after hearing Paul and then was born again and confirmed by Baptism.
• I am not clear of what you're asking about Jesus and the opening of ears to hear? I will say this, I don't think this is any different than the previous discussed God's opening Lydia's ears. And, I remind you of this: just because one has their "ears open" doesn't mean they believe and accept the gospel.....
• In this sense,the Devil does not have his heart hardened, his hears and heart ( if he has one) are wide open and he knows the gospel better than you and I ever will, the big difference is that he still fully rejects God!

 

[pekoe]

There are people who believed in Jesus from the miracles He did.

"Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, in the feast day, many believed in his name, when they saw the miracles which he did."

This would just be a normal reaction to seeing a miracle. This is how God works in the lives of unsaved people. God doesn't force people to believe in Jesus.