There are many examples in the Bible of God counseling people, but there is a widely held belief in Christianity that mankind is incapable of responding to God's call because of original sin and total depravity. For any who hold to those doctrines, why does God bother speaking to people who have no ability to reason?
Let Us Reason Together?
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Cosmicwaffle
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Actually it's not that widely held. Many people despise Calvinism and the doctrines on the sovereignty of God.
But I am not one of those people. :smiley:
What exactly do you mean "speaking to people who have no ability to reason" ?
But I am not one of those people. :smiley:
What exactly do you mean "speaking to people who have no ability to reason" ?
I mean sharing the gospel with people who are unable to accept it without irresistible grace.
Cosmicwaffle
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God has given us the wonderful oppurtunity to participate in his kindgom.
Does God need us to preach the gospel? Could he not save everyone if he wanted? Of course he could, but we as children of God want to be active in his kingdom and see our brothers and sisters come to the faith. He uses us as his means to reach the sheep. But does he need to use us? No, he is all powerful. He could save the entire human race in an instant if he so desired.
However, God has not stamped on people's heads who he has elected and who he has not. We are simply told to preach it to every creature.
So your question was "Why does God bother speaking to people who have no ability to reason?" or rather "Why do we share the gospel with those who have not been elected to receive it?". The answer is because he told us to.
Travis
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2 Timothy 2:23-26
23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all [men], apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And [that] they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
As one who adheres to Calvinism to you believe no such thing. Participation would require you to take part in something and Calvinism says you have no part.
Yes.
Not the way He designed salvation.
Again, in Calvinism you have no desire of your own to see anyone saved.
It is God's desire to have the entire human race saved:
"Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." 1 Ti.2:4
Here's an example of God commanding people to come to Him:
"Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord GOD, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live: turn ye, turn ye from your evil ways; for why will ye die, O house of Israel?" Eze.33:11
Did God want to show those people grace?
It doesn't matter if we know who they are. They have no choice to be lost whether obey God or not. Right?
Because I said so? Is that the answer God gives?
Good scripture Travis. Now what does not striving, but being gentle in patiently teaching people in meekness have to do with "God peradventure giving anyone repentance to acknowledge the truth"? Can't we just scream in their face, REPENT YOU WICKED SINNER" and accomplish the same result? After all, it's irresistible grace that makes people come to Jesus....isn't it?
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B-A-C
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Will there ever truly be peace between all Christians before Jesus returns?
Matt 10:34; "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Matt 10:35; "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
Matt 10:36; and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
Matt 10:37; "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
Matt 10:38; "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
Matt 10:39; "He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
I wonder if Jesus knew there would be division about Him. I don't believe this is what God wants, but I also am not convinced it will ever change
until Christ returns. Certain things have been debated for hundreds of years. We continue to debate them here on TJ, but rarely is anyone's mind ever changed
because we are all convinced we are right.
Isaiah 1:18; is an often quoted verse, but I think it is sometimes taken out of context.
2 Tim 2:23; But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.
2 Tim 2:24; The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
2 Tim 2:25; with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
2 Tim 2:26; and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
The problem seems to be none of us have come to our senses. The grace only crowd is praying for the legalists to be saved, The Armenian crowd is praying for the Calvinists to get saved,
The Wesleyan crowd is praying for both of the extremes to come together in the middle.
We don't seem to agree on who and what Jesus is. What salvation is and what is required to receive it, much less what is required to keep it.
I can't help but wonder what non-Christians or new believers think when they read some of the threads on here. I have been as guilty as anyone.
So I think I'm going to take a break for a while. Do a little soul searching, pray a lot, keep reading the Bible and see what God does.
1 Cor 13:12; For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
May God grant peace to us all. I pray that for just a few days, maybe we can all quit proving that I'm right and you're wrong, and start to see each other through
God's eyes. Maybe even start to love each other a little bit. If we are supposed to be led by the Spirit, maybe we should be more like Gal 5:22-23; than this...?
Gal 5:18; But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:15; But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
Heb 12:15; See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
Matt 10:34; "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Matt 10:35; "For I came to SET A MAN AGAINST HIS FATHER, AND A DAUGHTER AGAINST HER MOTHER, AND A DAUGHTER-IN-LAW AGAINST HER MOTHER-IN-LAW;
Matt 10:36; and A MAN'S ENEMIES WILL BE THE MEMBERS OF HIS HOUSEHOLD.
Matt 10:37; "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me.
Matt 10:38; "And he who does not take his cross and follow after Me is not worthy of Me.
Matt 10:39; "He who has found his life will lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake will find it.
I wonder if Jesus knew there would be division about Him. I don't believe this is what God wants, but I also am not convinced it will ever change
until Christ returns. Certain things have been debated for hundreds of years. We continue to debate them here on TJ, but rarely is anyone's mind ever changed
because we are all convinced we are right.
Isaiah 1:18; is an often quoted verse, but I think it is sometimes taken out of context.
2 Tim 2:23; But refuse foolish and ignorant speculations, knowing that they produce quarrels.
2 Tim 2:24; The Lord's bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged,
2 Tim 2:25; with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth,
2 Tim 2:26; and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.
The problem seems to be none of us have come to our senses. The grace only crowd is praying for the legalists to be saved, The Armenian crowd is praying for the Calvinists to get saved,
The Wesleyan crowd is praying for both of the extremes to come together in the middle.
We don't seem to agree on who and what Jesus is. What salvation is and what is required to receive it, much less what is required to keep it.
I can't help but wonder what non-Christians or new believers think when they read some of the threads on here. I have been as guilty as anyone.
So I think I'm going to take a break for a while. Do a little soul searching, pray a lot, keep reading the Bible and see what God does.
1 Cor 13:12; For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.
May God grant peace to us all. I pray that for just a few days, maybe we can all quit proving that I'm right and you're wrong, and start to see each other through
God's eyes. Maybe even start to love each other a little bit. If we are supposed to be led by the Spirit, maybe we should be more like Gal 5:22-23; than this...?
Gal 5:18; But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:15; But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
Heb 12:15; See to it that no one comes short of the grace of God; that no root of bitterness springing up causes trouble, and by it many be defiled;
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Cosmicwaffle
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I believe God uses us as a means to call those he has chosen before the foundations of the world. We as people have a will/soul he has made, and we are totally responsible for our actions, but it too is a created thing. However he does use us, so yes we do participate.
Seriously, you think God could not save everyone if he truly wanted? What happened to him being God? The fall happened for a reason, God was not shocked when it happened. While it might be his moral will to want all people to follow righteousness and come to him, we know he has fashioned in eternity some for wrath and others for mercy; Some he wrote in the lamb's book of life, others he did not.
If it is God's ultimate/eternal will to have the entire human race saved, then why will not all the human race be saved? Is God not God? No, he is God, and he has eternal purposes for this evil/fallen earth.
And you say I have no desire to see anyone saved... what? How on earth do you come to such a conclusion as that? The truth is I want people saved just as much as I am, but ultimately it is God who will have mercy on who he wants.
Read Romans chapter 9.
Did I say that was the answer God gives? It was my answer to your question.
I think it makes more sense to interpret scripture if we say God chose that people "in Christ" (those who repent and believe) would be His people.
I think people can only be held responsible if they have have a choice in a matter. If people have no desire of their own to serve God, it isn't them having part His service. Of coure, I'm sure you're aware I'm not a Calvinist.
Not the way He ordained it.
Nothing happened. God is more amazing than we can conceive. The way I see it, He decided to create us with total free will and still work all things out after His own counsel. That sounds impossible, but that's what He did.
You're right. God is never shocked. For some reason, He took something that happened in the spiritual realm and repeated it in a physical world (angels created perfect - angels rebels angels expelled from Heaven...man created perfect man rebels man expelled from Eden.)
I think it's possible that God fashions people by using their own will either for or against them.
Cosmicwaffle, if you would, please look at Jer.18:1-10 and give me your view of it. Specifically how God molds like a potter.
Maybe God wrote everyone's name in the book and erases some:
"And the LORD said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book." Ex.32:33
I think the problem is people think if something happens that is contrary to God's desire, that God isn't in control. Rebellion by angels or humans doesn't mean God is not Sovereign and I think we both know that someday, that point is going to be made painfully clear to the rebellious.
Personally, I have no doubt that you want people saved and that your desire comes from your own will. Of course, I believe God worked in your life through circumstance to change your heart, but you still made that choice of your own free will.
Brother, I've prayed over Ro.9 and sure I understand it correctly.
I know..."Because I said so!" It's not a sin to ask God why He said so.
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- Could he not save everyone if he wanted? Apparently, freedom of choice is important to God!
- "Why do we share the gospel with those who have not been elected to receive it?". There is no way for us to know who is the "elect" and who isn't, that totally belongs to God.
Cosmicwaffle
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RJ
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- I have seen and respect some of your reponse but I disagree here.
- God's freedom of choice is the freedom to choose him or not. God does not make you believe. It is choice first then comes God's free Grace.
- Revelation 3:20 ... We have to open the door and invite Jesus in. He comes in full of God's Grace. We choose first , then he comes in....Choice to beleive and invite him in and be saved. Jesus knocks on everyones door and those who choose not to open the door is their preogative and results in their unpardonable sin!
- I think also, you may be confused about election. God elected from the foundation of the world and put every believer in his "Book of Life". Don't forget, God is Omnipresent. He is the begining, the end and everything in between.
- He has pre-knowledge who chooses him and who does not or who his elect and non-elect. Don't try to put a human spin on spiritual matters.
- Just because you are Christian doesn't mean you are void of all sin in your life. See what Paul said in Ro 7 and how he followed that up in Romans 8:1 .
- We are not capable of understanding it all.
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Cosmicwaffle
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RJ
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Your statement "God has to give them his spirit before they can come to him. ", doesn't give the appearance that you know it too well! Anyway it may be good for others to here!
Cosmicwaffle
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I mean't regarding sin and not understanding fully the ways of the Lord.
With regards to God having to give them his spirit, there are several verses that could support this.
John 6:37
"All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away."
John 6:44
“No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."
John 6:63-65
The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit and life. Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
1 Corinthians 2:14
The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit.
It can be concluded from these verses (there are a few more but I neglected to find them) that a man cannot come to God or understand the things of God unless he has been given the spirit.
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RJ
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- Understand God, Yes but, come to God because he first gave you the spirit, none of these verses supports God giving you the spirit first before choosing him. Think about it, to have the indwelling of the spirit denotes salvation, to have the spirit before choosing him is no choice at all, it is manipulating and that is not God!
- What is your explanation of Revelation 3:20?
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Travis
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I'm not taking sides here... seriously. I did just want to point this one thing out though:
Acts 16:14-15
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard [us]: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. 15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought [us], saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord, come into my house, and abide [there]. And she constrained us.
The Lord opened her heart. She didn't have to open the door herself.
Now, in all my experiences with Jesus, he has always been a complete gentleman in the true sense of the word. He is polite and asks others to do things on their own free will, not forcing them. There are times, as a child of God he has been forceful with me, dealing with me as a son. But that's different. I believe that God is the utmost gentleman in how he acts. Nonetheless, Lydia did not have to open her own heart, the Lord opened it for her, so that she could accept the things Paul was preaching. I'm not saying this proves one thing or another, just that it is a point which needs addressing.
Grace to you,
Travis
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What do you mean when you say, "been given the spirit" exactly? Do you mean born again?
