Jesus and the Syro-phoenician woman

[Bendito]

I'm struggling to know what to make of the story of Jesus and the Syro-phoenician woman in Mark 7

Jesus left that place and went to the vicinity of Tyre. He entered a house and did not want anyone to know it; yet he could not keep his presence secret. In fact, as soon as she heard about him, a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an impure spirit came and fell at his feet. The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
“First let the children eat all they want,” he told her, “for it is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
“Lord,” she replied, “even the dogs under the table eat the children’s crumbs.”
Then he told her, “For such a reply, you may go; the demon has left your daughter.”​

This is the only story in the gospels where Jesus changes his mind, it's the only place where he doesn't immediately respond to someone in need with compassion. Let alone the ugly comparison with dogs.

A very good piece I read says, "Every interpreter must make at least one key decision about this story: Is the woman passing a test or winning an argument?"

I'd be interested in your ideas

Are you sure that Jesus changed His mind? He went there for some peace and quiet, being God he knew she would ask that. His 'argument' gave the woman a chance to express her faith. When she did Jesus gave here what she asked for. And He also had a chance to teach others. Remember...Jesus did not come just for the Jews but to the Jews first.

 

[Dovegiven]

Are you sure that Jesus changed His mind? He went there for some peace and quiet, being God he knew she would ask that. His 'argument' gave the woman a chance to express her faith. When she did Jesus gave here what she asked for. And He also had a chance to teach others. Remember...Jesus did not come just for the Jews but to the Jews first.

Jesus said he only came to the House of Israel in our feature passage, not saying he came first to them, then taking the gospel to the gentiles. He stayed with his mission. The Jews he got through to are the ones that took the gospel to the gentiles seven years later. To be more specific, he came to the lost sheep of the HOI, to the sinners of that house, not the "righteous" elite who believed the Messiah would come only to them, the religious leadership.

 

[Bendito]

Jesus said he only came to the House of Israel in our feature passage, not saying he came first to them, then taking the gospel to the gentiles. He stayed with his mission. The Jews he got through to are the ones that took the gospel to the gentiles seven years later. To be more specific, he came to the lost sheep of the HOI, to the sinners of that house, not the "righteous" elite who believed the Messiah would come only to them, the religious leadership.

Take a look at Romans 1:16 16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.

Or
Romans 2:9-16 (KJV)
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Use the

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


The Word say that Jesus came to the Jews first. Salvation was and is for all mankind. Read Acts 13:14-52

 

[Dovegiven]

Take a look at Romans 1:16 16 For I am not ashamed of the Good News, since it is God’s powerful means of bringing salvation to everyone who keeps on trusting, to the Jew especially, but equally to the Gentile.

Or
Romans 2:9-16 (KJV)
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Use the

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


The Word say that Jesus came to the Jews first. Salvation was and is for all mankind. Read Acts 13:14-52

Note that it was after Jesus ascended to Heaven, then seven years later that the apostles, beginning with Peter, and chiefly with Paul, that the gospel was taken by them to the gentiles. While on earth Jesus took it only to the Jews. The Lord revealed to Peter his plan to take it to the world, using Peter to reach Cornelius. God sent the Holy Spirit to help them do those acts. It is Paul who wrote by the Spirit that, yes, Jesus came to the Jews first. That revelation and fulfillment came by the disciples to the gentiles, and to Jews alike, as it is true today of the Church.

We can't rightly say Jesus didn't accurately state while on earth he came only to the Jews, which is critical to understand why he dealt with the Canaanite woman like he did, and why she showed such humility. Because he had said he only came to the HOI, it had to remain so until that was changed by the Holy Spirit. He had to guide the Jewish believers to accomplish the prophecy that Israel would be a light to the gentiles, none understanding that before, and having not heard about it from Jesus while he ministered on earth.

 

[Bendito]

Note that it was after Jesus ascended to Heaven, then seven years later that the apostles, beginning with Peter, and chiefly with Paul, that the gospel was taken by them to the gentiles. While on earth Jesus took it only to the Jews. The Lord revealed to Peter his plan to take it to the world, using Peter to reach Cornelius. God sent the Holy Spirit to help them do those acts. It is Paul who wrote by the Spirit that, yes, Jesus came to the Jews first. That revelation and fulfillment came by the disciples to the gentiles, and to Jews alike, as it is true today of the Church.

We can't rightly say Jesus didn't accurately state while on earth he came only to the Jews, which is critical to understand why he dealt with the Canaanite woman like he did, and why she showed such humility. Because he had said he only came to the HOI, it had to remain so until that was changed by the Holy Spirit. He had to guide the Jewish believers to accomplish the prophecy that Israel would be a light to the gentiles, none understanding that before, and having not heard about it from Jesus while he ministered on earth.

HOI?

 

[Hekuran]

None of those many examples of Jesus' miracles were directly linked to spiritual tests, but simply his mercy.

And that's where I am getting stuck. It seems that Jesus is applying a test in this instance, either that or he is won over by her reply.

 

[Waggles]

Sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to communicate here.

The scriptures speak for themselves. Here it is obvious in what manner Jesus as God regards people who continue as sinners and unbelievers.
The Bible describes them like unto brute beasts, no better than the animals.
Matthew 3:7 John the Baptist
But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
Matthew 23:33 Jesus
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Psalm 49:20
Man that is in honour, and understandeth not, is like the beasts that perish.
2Peter 2: 21-22
For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

 

[Hekuran]

The scriptures speak for themselves. Here it is obvious in what manner Jesus as God regards people who continue as sinners and unbelievers.

Sure. What does that have to do with the text at hand? Jesus doesn't call her to repentance, and the only personal detail the gospel writers offer us is her ethnicity.

 

[B-A-C]

Of course this wasn't the only non-Jew Jesus shared the gospel with (nor the first).

John 4:7; There *came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus *said to her, "Give Me a drink."
John 4:8; For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.
John 4:9; Therefore the Samaritan woman *said to Him, "How is it that You, being a Jew, ask me for a drink since I am a Samaritan woman?" (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.)
John 4:10; Jesus answered and said to her, "If you knew the gift of God, and who it is who says to you, 'Give Me a drink,' you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."

 

[Hekuran]

and the difference between the two encounters could hardly be more stark.

 

[Bendito]

And that's where I am getting stuck. It seems that Jesus is applying a test in this instance, either that or he is won over by her reply.

Look again...The woman was not looking to take the blessing of the people, the Jews, she was looking for a simple scrap. What got it for her was her faith in the man Jesus.

 

[B-A-C]

In Luke 10 Jesus tells a story about a man who was attacked by robbers and left for dead beside the road.
He mentions a priest, a Levite, and finally a Samaritan who stumble across this man.
Who was the hero in this story? The Jewish priest? The Jewish Levite? Or the non-Jewish Samaritan?

 

[Hekuran]

Look again...The woman was not looking to take the blessing of the people, the Jews, she was looking for a simple scrap. What got it for her was her faith in the man Jesus.

Understanding the woman's motivation and actions is not too problematic. She's motivated by concern for her daughter, puts her faith in Jesus to help, and won't take "no" for an answer.

It's Jesus' response to her that is so difficult to reconcile with the rest of the gospel.

 

[Hekuran]

In Luke 10 Jesus tells a story about a man who was attacked by robbers and left for dead beside the road.
He mentions a priest, a Levite, and finally a Samaritan who stumble across this man.
Who was the hero in this story? The Jewish priest? The Jewish Levite? Or the non-Jewish Samaritan?

The Samaritan. How does this help you understand the passage in Mark 7?

 

[B-A-C]

The Samaritan. How does this help you understand the passage in Mark 7?

It helps me understand that Jesus wasn't racist. That He recognized even non-Jews could "love their neighbors".
And in some cases do it better than the Jews.

 

[Curtis]

Understanding the woman's motivation and actions is not too problematic. She's motivated by concern for her daughter, puts her faith in Jesus to help, and won't take "no" for an answer.

It's Jesus' response to her that is so difficult to reconcile with the rest of the gospel.

When you say "the rest of the Gospel" are you forgetting these scriptures?

Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

These are all hard saying to understand, yet they are absolutely true in every way. Are these not just as hard to reconcile? Jesus never said anything just to say something. There was a purpose and reason why he spoke the way he did..

 

[B-A-C]

When you say "the rest of the Gospel" are you forgetting these scriptures?

Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

These are all hard saying to understand, yet they are absolutely true in every way. Are these not just as hard to reconcile? Jesus never said anything just to say something. There was a purpose and reason why he spoke the way he did..

Sometimes my curiosity gets the better of me. In what way exactly are these hard to reconcile?

 

[Hekuran]

When you say "the rest of the Gospel" are you forgetting these scriptures?

Luk 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.

Mat 10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

Mat 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

Joh 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
Joh 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Joh 6:66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
Joh 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

These are all hard saying to understand, yet they are absolutely true in every way. Are these not just as hard to reconcile? Jesus never said anything just to say something. There was a purpose and reason why he spoke the way he did..

Or, "whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it".

Most of these are easy enough to understand but very hard to accept - if you get my meaning. A child could make sense of them, but who can live it out.

The encounter with the syro-phoenician woman I still find baffling though.

 

[Curtis]

Sometimes my curiosity gets the better of me. In what way exactly are these hard to reconcile?

Calling a person a "dog" was pretty intense, but effective, also telling people to love God more then your mother, father children is also intense, and not for the faint of heart.
Telling people to drink his blood and eat his flesh is way off the charts for those who do not have understanding. A person who has no understanding of why these things are said, and what they mean, there is no way to reconcile these things. People either accept them, or turn away and never come back.

 

[Curtis]

Or, "whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me and for the gospel will save it".

Most of these are easy enough to understand but very hard to accept - if you get my meaning. A child could make sense of them, but who can live it out.

The encounter with the syro-phoenician woman I still find baffling though.

The problem is some times we look at things from a "logical" perspective, and not in a spiritual way. It makes no logical sense. How can a man loose his life to find life? Logically that is impossible. With man it itsimpossible, but with God all things are possible.