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Jesus and the Syro-phoenician woman

Hekuran

Faithful Brother in Christ
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Nov 18, 2008
Messages
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I'm struggling to know what to make of the story of Jesus and the Syro-phoenician woman in Mark 7

Jesus left that place and went to the vicinity of Tyre. He entered a house and did not want anyone to know it; yet he could not keep his presence secret. In fact, as soon as she heard about him, a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an impure spirit came and fell at his feet. The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
“First let the children eat all they want,” he told her, “for it is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
“Lord,” she replied, “even the dogs under the table eat the children’s crumbs.”
Then he told her, “For such a reply, you may go; the demon has left your daughter.”​

This is the only story in the gospels where Jesus changes his mind, it's the only place where he doesn't immediately respond to someone in need with compassion. Let alone the ugly comparison with dogs.

A very good piece I read says, "Every interpreter must make at least one key decision about this story: Is the woman passing a test or winning an argument?"

I'd be interested in your ideas
 
John 6
5 Lifting up his eyes, then, and seeing that a large crowd was coming toward him, Jesus said to Philip, "Where are we to buy bread, so that these people may eat?" 6 He said this to test him, for he himself knew what he would do."​

If Jesus had not said: "for it is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs," we would not have seen such a picture of the woman's heart and what our hearts should look like. She was willing to accept her place not even at the end of the table, but under the table, with the dogs in order to receive what Jesus had to offer her. She believed with all her heart that he was fully capable of doing what she desired to be done.

Matthew 15
28 Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.​
 
I'm struggling to know what to make of the story of Jesus and the Syro-phoenician woman in Mark 7

Jesus left that place and went to the vicinity of Tyre. He entered a house and did not want anyone to know it; yet he could not keep his presence secret. In fact, as soon as she heard about him, a woman whose little daughter was possessed by an impure spirit came and fell at his feet. The woman was a Greek, born in Syrian Phoenicia. She begged Jesus to drive the demon out of her daughter.
“First let the children eat all they want,” he told her, “for it is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
“Lord,” she replied, “even the dogs under the table eat the children’s crumbs.”
Then he told her, “For such a reply, you may go; the demon has left your daughter.”​

This is the only story in the gospels where Jesus changes his mind, it's the only place where he doesn't immediately respond to someone in need with compassion. Let alone the ugly comparison with dogs.

A very good piece I read says, "Every interpreter must make at least one key decision about this story: Is the woman passing a test or winning an argument?"

I'd be interested in your ideas

Jesus came only for the "lost sheep" of Israel, and this woman being a Greek was considered by the Jewish community "a dog"
Jesus did not change his mind he simply spoke to this lady looking for a "faith" statement from her mouth so he could heal her daughter.
She responded by saying even the dogs eat from the crumbs that fall from their masters table. That faith statement of faith was all Jesus needed to heal her daughter.
We know it was a faith statement because of what Jesus said to her."O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire."

Mat 15:24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Mat 15:25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me."
Mat 15:26 And he answered, "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs."
Mat 15:27 She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.
 
Thanks for the replies. The reason I am struggling with these traditional answers is that they raise more questions.

I understand why Jesus tested his disciples at the feeding of the 5,000 - it was part of discipling them - stretching their faith and teaching them. But I can't see why Jesus would throw up such a barrier to this person. She's a woman and gentile, so she's already overcome social norms and shown great faith, or desperation to kneel before Jesus.

Why is it necessary to carry off a racial slur before her daughter is healed?

I don't see why this person needs to be humbled before getting what she needs.
 
I think I am becoming convinced that Jesus does actually mean to turn the woman away. At the beginning of John's gospel, he initially resists doing something about the wedding that ran out of wine, and then is persuaded.

Setting up a test for her just doesn't seem to fit with the way that Jesus responded to other people in the gospel.

I still cannot find a fair explanation for likening her and her people to dogs.

I'm reserving my right to change my mind on this though...
 
Why is it necessary to carry off a racial slur before her daughter is healed?
This is not a racial slur. Jesus is not referring to her ethnicity. Rather Jesus is addressing her religion and status as a gentile outside the covenant of Israel.
The woman is being referred to as a non-Jew, a Greek.

Mark 7:24 And from thence he arose, and went into the borders of Tyre and Sidon, and entered into an house, and would have no man know it: but he could not be hid.
25 For a certain woman, whose young daughter had an unclean spirit, heard of him, and came and fell at his feet:
26 The woman was a Greek, a Syrophenician by nation; and she besought him that he would cast forth the devil out of her daughter.
27 But Jesus said unto her, Let the children first be filled: for it is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it unto the dogs.
28 And she answered and said unto him, Yes, Lord: yet the dogs under the table eat of the children's crumbs.
29 And he said unto her, For this saying go thy way; the devil is gone out of thy daughter.

Matthew 15:21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David;
my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.
27 And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall from their masters' table.
28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.

What I see here is yet another example of Jesus embarrassing and showing up the chosen people by drawing attention to the faith of gentiles in recognising Jesus as one
sent from God and worthy to be called Lord. There are plenty of people who by faith came into the nation of Israel (Ruth and Rahab for example).

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
This was an ongoing problem throughout the gospels and Jesus often had to challenge and rebuke the Pharisees, Sadducees and Scribes responsible
for implementing the Law in Israel at this time for their unbelief.

Matthew 8:5 And when Jesus was entered into Capernaum, there came unto him a centurion, beseeching him,
Mat 8:6 And saying, Lord, my servant lieth at home sick of the palsy, grievously tormented.
Mat 8:7 And Jesus saith unto him, I will come and heal him.
Mat 8:8 The centurion answered and said, Lord, I am not worthy that thou shouldest come under my roof: but speak the word only, and my servant shall be healed.
Mat 8:9 For I am a man under authority, having soldiers under me: and I say to this man, Go, and he goeth; and to another, Come, and he cometh; and to my servant,
Do this, and he doeth it.
Mat 8:10 When Jesus heard it, he marvelled, and said to them that followed, Verily I say unto you, I have not found so great faith, no, not in Israel.
Mat 8:11 And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 8:12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Mat 8:13 And Jesus said unto the centurion, Go thy way; and as thou hast believed, so be it done unto thee. And his servant was healed in the selfsame hour.

Jesus came to save people, not to slander or denigrate them.
But he also threw back upon the chosen House of Israel, - those who were chosen and under the Abrahamic Covenant, who had received the Law through Moses and the Prophets,
who should have known better on the righteousness of God and the promise of a Messiah - that they had failed to live up to the legacy given to them.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
 
I don't see why this person needs to be humbled before getting what she needs.

I hope you don't think I think that. Not in the way you are saying it anyway.

Jesus wasn't humbling her, but he did give us a very good glimpse of her humility. Had he not said what he said, we wouldn't have seen it as we do now.

Jesus knew he was/is the savior of the Gentiles when he came in the flesh. But, he had a very specific purpose to accomplish and scripture to fulfil in a short time frame while he was here. Him personally healing people of physical ailments and delivering them from being demonized was not the #1 goal. He came to shed his blood on the cross, and he needed to be rejected by his own people, the Jews.

Taking his ministry completely to the Gentiles was not the plan at that time, and no matter how good it would have been, it would have been a distraction from his main purpose. After his death, Jesus ascended to the right hand of the Father and sent the Holy Spirit with power upon his disciples so that they may go into the Gentiles in due time. There's justice and order and a timeliness to Gods workings that we often don't understand or see.

While Jesus was in the flesh on earth, millions of people suffered from demonization, physical ailments, psychological disorders, etc, that he never even came into contact with. That's cause that's not his primary purpose for coming. What he came for was to heal people spiritually, to be a propitiation for their sins, to cancel the debt they owe to the Father.

God is good all the time. All the time, God is good.

We know that Jesus did right by this Canaanite woman who was a gentile, because he is truly and utterly good and just and perfect in all his ways all the time.

There are things about God's attributes to be learned by this passage of scripture. It definitely sticks out and makes you want to ask questions.

Blessings,

Travis
 
I take a hint from other instances when Jesus suppressed events his disciples witnessed, kike in Mark 9:9-10 (KJV)
9 And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.
10 And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean.


Jesus tended to play down proofs of his divinity, choosing to preach the gospel to Israel rather than base salvation on miracles and visions. The better time to divulge such facts was best put off until Jesus ministered to the Jews was done the way the Father directed him.

Had the gentiles in general discovered the power of Jesus early on, the task of focusing only on Israel would have been far more difficult. Jews might later claim rightly the gentiles stole their birthright of salvation, being far outnumbered and overpowered by the gentile world.

Another example is Luke 9:20-22 (KJV)
20 He said unto them,
But whom say ye that I am? Peter answering said, The Christ of God.
21 And he straitly charged them, and commanded them to tell no man that thing;
22 Saying,
The Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be slain, and be raised the third day.

It was necessary to protect the prime directive of fulfilling God's promises to Israel concerning their salvation. Because God is merciful, there were some exceptions for benefits for a few Gentiles based on their expression of faith that Jesus "the prophet" could heal. The centurion didn't believe according to the gospel message, but his basis of belief on Jesus' ability was enough to grant healing. Their beliefs were not based on Jesus' gospel, but their use of faith was greater than normally found among the Jews who should have jumped squarely into that as a nation.

Back to Mt 15. The Canaanite woman could have known from Jesus' clothing and speech he was in the lineage of David, of course well identified as a Jew, all considered in that family lineage. Her salutation to him was on that basis, not counted as a revelation of his being the Son of God, the Christ. "Lord" and "Master" often applied to rabbis in general.
She had no covenant right to even ask anything from a Jew, not even a drink of water. She had heard Jesus could heal, matching some stories of ancient prophets of Israel, known to many outside Israel. Regardless, even distant relatives of the old northern kingdom of Israel, the Samaritans, were also called "dogs", applied to anyone outside the "Commonwealth of Israel". It was simply the way people spoke then, using an analogy of grown pesky dogs not belonging to a family roam about seeking support. If you feed them they stick around wanting more, just to feed bellies. So it's best not to feed them unless wanting to make them a part of your life. Jews didn't want non-Jews coming around, the Samaritans especially detested because of their spiritual adultery, having been the first of Israel to go into idolatry and be captured by Babylon, then losing their Israeli identity by intermarriage with gentiles, including Canaanites. The use of "dog's" was not an insult, well understood by all living anywhere near a Jew. They might even admit to a Jewish farmer back then "In case you don't know, I'm a dog, but need a job."


Where Jesus went was a hotbed of the Gentile world, with a population of extremely poor people with a lifetime worth of needs Jesus could have ministered to until he was 100 years old in that one spot, if he chose to do that instead of sticking to Israel. The Father obviously permitted that healing based on the smallest example of the rue faith principle, knowing that event wouldn't affect his mission, as Jesus only did what the Father said to do.

If she could be so blessed while not legally eligible, why do you suppose so many Christians suffer, refusing to ask, who have healing as a benefit of Jesus' gospel? The Jews passed on that too.

Refusal to live by faith.....a few do find it and prosper in many ways.


 
God is good all the time. All the time, God is good.

Yes, praise God!

Still, no matter what direction I approach this story from I can't see how it fits with God's perfect goodness. I understand the points about Jesus glory revealed to the Jews first, then Samaria and to the ends of the earth, and also the need for Jesus to take steps to make sure his fame did not run ahead of him during his earthly ministry. Just can't get past Jesus naming a person among the dogs.
 
Yes, praise God!

Still, no matter what direction I approach this story from I can't see how it fits with God's perfect goodness. I understand the points about Jesus glory revealed to the Jews first, then Samaria and to the ends of the earth, and also the need for Jesus to take steps to make sure his fame did not run ahead of him during his earthly ministry. Just can't get past Jesus naming a person among the dogs.

it's God's word, the words of Christ. Nobody is qualified to question that. God called several classes of people dogs and swine and other things that sound offensive today, but were completely acceptable before this generation. The scriptures refer to homosexual prostitutes as dogs (Deu 23:18), rejecting offerings of the price of ****** and dogs. We ought not cast precious holy pearls of the Lord before swine, people who will turn and trample your benevolence. Matthew 7:6 (KJV)
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.


That is still good instruction to obey, as the dogs and swine are still among us, and will turn on those who get close enough. we still have false teachers, false prophets, and fools likened as dogs returning to their vomit.
 
it's God's word, the words of Christ. Nobody is qualified to question that.

Yes. I want to make it clear that my approach is not to stand in judgement over the text. None of us is qualified to do that.

Yet I think we all ought to take seriously the bits of God's word that we find challenging and uncomfortable. In my own experience, growth and new understanding often comes through wrestling with texts like this.

Back to the question of the OP - is the woman winning an argument or passing a test - I find the passing the test interpretation more troublesome. It ends up putting Jesus in the position of responding to a very desperate woman with a deliberately harsh response in order to use her as an example to others. To me, that does not fit with Jesus' behaviour anywhere else in the gospels.
 
The daughter of the woman had an "unclean spirit", the Bible says. This is the Bible's parable language for saying the daughter was unsaved formerly. Anyone who is saved, Jesus called clean (meaning the stain of sin is forgiven them). Clean and unclean are parable words carrying these two opposing meanings, saved vs. unsaved. Similarly, the daughter is said to have a devil. This is also the Bible's way of saying that the daughter was unsaved. All who are unsaved have the devil as their father. It does not mean the daughter looked or acted like a horror film character or was possessed in that horror film way. Jesus called the daughter a dog, also meaning one who is unsaved. The term dog is a Bible parable word. The term does not mean the daughter was a literal dog, and the other two terms are not literal either, except to illustrate the unsaved condition, although the term devil might be called more literal, if thought of as belonging to Satan rather than to God. The daughter is a picture of not just one person, but of those who are outside of the kingdom of God, the heathen. The mother, probably a picture of the Jerusalem above, shows that she is incorporating those 'heathen' or 'Gentiles' or those not belonging to the fallen congregations, into the true kingdom of God. She makes a sentence showing that she knows that those formerly unsaved persons are now part of the same heavenly food eaters, the body and blood of Christ, so to speak, the same table. Jesus acknowledges that the faith for her daughter (her daugher is a picture of many persons) is valid and the devil is gone from the daughter (parable language for those former heathen now not having Satan as their father, but God, since they are now recognized as saved by Christ).
Take note of the fact that the only one besides Joshua to come saved from the wilderness into the promised land was Caleb (which means dog). The 'dog' Caleb was saved.
Great is often talking about the great tribulation period in the Bible, and I think this may be likely in the case of the Syropheonician woman, who had 'great faith'. In another place in the Bible when Jesus commended someone for their great faith, he said he had NOT found such great faith in all of Israel, meaning the saved group was outside of the traditional congregations at that point, and faith was suddenly found for the 'heathen', the 'gentiles'.
 
Matthew 15
22 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, "Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon." 23 But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, "Send her away, for she is crying out after us." 24 He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel." 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, "Lord, help me." 26 And he answered, "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." 27 She said, "Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." 28 Then Jesus answered her, "O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire." And her daughter was healed instantly.​

This woman was a daughter of Abraham. She was a daughter of Abraham, because like Abraham, she was full of faith.

Galatians 3
5 Does he who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you do so by works of the law, or by hearing with faith-- 6 just as Abraham "believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"? 7 Know then that it is those of faith who are the sons of Abraham. 8 And the Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "In you shall all the nations be blessed." 9 So then, those who are of faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.​

There is another daughter of Abraham mentioned, who herself had an unclean spirit:

Luke 13
11 And behold, there was a woman who had had a disabling spirit for eighteen years. She was bent over and could not fully straighten herself. 12 When Jesus saw her, he called her over and said to her, "Woman, you are freed from your disability." 13 And he laid his hands on her, and immediately she was made straight, and she glorified God. 14 But the ruler of the synagogue, indignant because Jesus had healed on the Sabbath, said to the people, "There are six days in which work ought to be done. Come on those days and be healed, and not on the Sabbath day." 15 Then the Lord answered him, "You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the Sabbath untie his ox or his donkey from the manger and lead it away to water it? 16 And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the Sabbath day?"​

Going back to the original passage, Jesus says, "It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs." The children's bread is exactly what she was asking for, deliverance for her daughter from a spirit which was tormenting her and everyone else around. It's called the children's bread for a reason. It belongs to the children, who are children by faith.

Generally speaking, deliverance from evil spirits is not for unbelievers, but for believers.

It's not good to try and make the scriptures say something they don't.

Blessings,

Travis
 
Yes. I want to make it clear that my approach is not to stand in judgement over the text. None of us is qualified to do that.

Yet I think we all ought to take seriously the bits of God's word that we find challenging and uncomfortable. In my own experience, growth and new understanding often comes through wrestling with texts like this.

Back to the question of the OP - is the woman winning an argument or passing a test - I find the passing the test interpretation more troublesome. It ends up putting Jesus in the position of responding to a very desperate woman with a deliberately harsh response in order to use her as an example to others. To me, that does not fit with Jesus' behaviour anywhere else in the gospels.

Jesus always asked a lot of questions during his earthly ministry. Jesus knew the answer to every question he asked, so it was not to learn anything. He already knew what every ones response would be before asking his questions, or even just saying something to someone. The end results for this woman's answer is what Jesus wanted to hear from her. She received what she wanted. What would have happened if Jesus did not speak to her in the way he did? Probably nothing.
 
Yet I think we all ought to take seriously the bits of God's word that we find challenging and uncomfortable. In my own experience, growth and new understanding often comes through wrestling with texts like this.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murders, and idolators, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 22:
 
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murders, and idolators, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Revelation 22:
Sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to communicate here.
 
Jesus knew the answer to every question he asked, so it was not to learn anything. He already knew what every ones response would be before asking his questions, or even just saying something to someone.

I'm not so sure. The Bible says that Jesus knew what was in a man's heart, but I don't think it says that Jesus knew in advance what every person would do or say. Further up this thread, someone has quoted the encounter of Jesus and the Centurion. It's pretty clear to me that Jesus was astonished by the Centurion's response - it came as a surprise.

If Jesus knew in advance what people would say, the only way to understand Jesus' actions would be that a lot of the time he was playing games with people - acting dumb, then acting surprised - something that I would reject altogether.
 
I'm not so sure. The Bible says that Jesus knew what was in a man's heart, but I don't think it says that Jesus knew in advance what every person would do or say. Further up this thread, someone has quoted the encounter of Jesus and the Centurion. It's pretty clear to me that Jesus was astonished by the Centurion's response - it came as a surprise.

If Jesus knew in advance what people would say, the only way to understand Jesus' actions would be that a lot of the time he was playing games with people - acting dumb, then acting surprised - something that I would reject altogether.

How would a all knowing God communicate to a person who knows only what has happened in the past and what he is ever learning at that moment? He would have to talk to this man as if he thought like a man, and knew nothing excerpt what he was learning at that moment too. If he did not do that, there would nothing to talk about because he would already know your every word , and thought that would come out of your mouth without you saying it. The Word of God that became flesh sees all things, even the intents of mans heart. Nothing is hidden from the eyes with whom he have to do.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Heb 4:13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
 
If Jesus knew in advance what people would say, the only way to understand Jesus' actions would be that a lot of the time he was playing games with people - acting dumb, then acting surprised - something that I would reject altogether.

Jesus was both man and God. 100% of each at the same time. Men are limited in their understanding, knowledge, power, etc. He was inhibited by his flesh quite often. Nonetheless there are definitely times when he prophetically knew exactly what people were thinking or going to do. This may have been one of them, the text alone doesn't tell us exactly though.

Calling her a dog wasn't an insult, but was a factual statement. In the flesh she was part of a people that was separated from and strangers to the promises and blessings of God. If one has a heart full of pride, thy would be offended by this statement. The way the woman responded showed that she was not harboring pride in her heart, but was instead quite humble. Though according to the flesh she may have not been a part of the covenant people, the secret which was about to be revealed to mankind was that through faith she truly was a daughter of Abraham. It just wasn't time for such to be fully revealed yet, things weren't quite ready.
 
Hebrews 11:6 (KJV) But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

It's apparent to me the Canaanite woman mostly showed a measure of faith in Jesus. She followed up with a few works, making her faith alive.

Another condition to receive anything from God is she asked, not merely hoped. Matthew 21:22 (KJV) And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.

A third condition of receiving was to be persistent. You know the parables Jesus taught that by, such as the woman pestering the judge for a ruling. What's different in this woman's case was she fell at his feet worshiping, on top of the conditions Jesus taught he was looking for from man. In all that her reasoning was icing on the cake with Jesus, at least as wise as the centurion who stood on the principle of soldiers submitting to their Captains. His case also was not based on scripture, but upon an honorable concept similar to scriptural precepts of submission to authority. That man yielded his great earthly powers to Jesus at an opportune time.

Jesus healed many who were not religiously/legally eligible under Jewish law, the leper, the blind, the lame, the ignorant, some merely being in the right place at the right time and receiving his blessing. None of those many examples of Jesus' miracles were directly linked to spiritual tests, but simply his mercy.

 
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