Is the human soul mortal or immortal?

[Sue D.]

Ah, Butch5 -- that vs 48 says that "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

That doesn't sound like they were being saved against their will -- "rejoicing and glorifying"

Looks like there Isn't a conflict at all.

Sounds Kind of like the Jews didn't want to accept Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah. But they Also didn't want the Gentiles included. They stirred up agitation amongst the people which resulted in persecution towards Paul and Barnabas and they were driven out of that district.

You've mentioned Calvinism / Armenianism. -- Mr. Calvin was a man who had strong ideas based on Scripture. Lots of people have picked up on those ideas and the 5-points of Calvinism have come to be. And Mr. Armenius had his rebuttal to those points. But let's remember -- they are concepts that two men came up with. There's a Lot of Scripture that Can be 'pounced on' and oppinions formed from.

 

[Butch5]

The book of Romans was written to Gentiles.

Rom 8:33; Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:34; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

It seems some Gentiles are called the elect also.

Hi B-A-C,

Paul opens the letter to the Romans to the Church. However, at chapter 2:17 he turns his attention to the Jewish members of the Church. He addresses them through 11:13 where he turns his attention to the Gentiles. During his address to the Jews he speaks of their history and how God has worked through them

 

[Sue D.]

Through Christ -- His shed blood for our sins. John 3:16 For God so loved the World that He gave His Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[Butch5]

Ah, Butch5 -- that vs 48 says that "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."

That doesn't sound like they were being saved against their will -- "rejoicing and glorifying"

Looks like there Isn't a conflict at all.

Sounds Kind of like the Jews didn't want to accept Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah. But they Also didn't want the Gentiles included. They stirred up agitation amongst the people which resulted in persecution towards Paul and Barnabas and they were driven out of that district.

You've mentioned Calvinism / Armenianism. -- Mr. Calvin was a man who had strong ideas based on Scripture. Lots of people have picked up on those ideas and the 5-points of Calvinism have come to be. And Mr. Armenius had his rebuttal to those points. But let's remember -- they are concepts that two men came up with. There's a Lot of Scripture that Can be 'pounced on' and oppinions formed from.

Hi Sue,

Acts 13:48 is a passage used by Calvinists to assert that God has chosen certain people to be saved. In the belief system it is asserted that those chosen were chosen before the foundation of the world and as such had no choice in the matter. My point was that this interpretation runs counter to what Paul said of the Jews in verse 46 and thus must be incorrect.

 

[Sue D.]

Since I'm a Gentile , I'm very glad that salvation has been extended To the Gentile world. And whomever else around here is Gentile -- we can be thankful that 'we' have been included. It Still needs to be a personal acknowledgment of our individual need For salvation and personal acceptance Of.

 

[Sue D.]

And Why 'must' it be incorrect? Because it's not logical to you? Almost sounds like you accept God's word as correct as long it sounds logical to you. This is not meant to be argumentative, but........

 

[Butch5]

Since I'm a Gentile , I'm very glad that salvation has been extended To the Gentile world. And whomever else around here is Gentile -- we can be thankful that 'we' have been included. It Still needs to be a personal acknowledgment of our individual need For salvation and personal acceptance Of.

I agree. My reason for pointing out the that the Jews are the vehicle is to show how it all works so that the Scriotures can be properly understood in context. The Scriptures lay out God's plan. When we understand it in an orderly fashion we have no need to proof text passages of Scripture.

 

[Butch5]

And Why 'must' it be incorrect? Because it's not logical to you? Almost sounds like you accept God's word as correct as long it sounds logical to you. This is not meant to be argumentative, but........

Hi Sue,

If something is illogical how can you know it's true? You can't. If you allow me one illogical premise I can prove anythimg. We have to use logic or we can claim anything at all is true.

The only way both can be true is if the Jews get to choose whether or not they want to be saved and the Gentiles don't. However, we know that the plan of salvation is the same for both.

 

[Sue D.]

So -- your perspective is that IF the Jews had accepted Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah from the 1st - that no one else would be eligible For salvation. So - since they weren't being cooperative that
salvation was , therefore , was extended to the rest of us. So Their rejection was being used by God to accept us After all. God was Not surprised by any of 'this' -- He had our salvation planned from the beginning.

 

[Sue D.]

Hi Sue,

In that passage we see that the Jews rejected Paul's message. He said they judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. This tell us that Paul didn't believe that some were chosen for salvation apart from their will. If we interpret that the Gentiles in verse 48 were chosen to be saved apart from their will we create a conflict with what Paul had just said about the Jews

So -- If I'm understanding you correctly -- your stating that you interpret that conflict as being illogical and so therefore can't be correct. Because if something is illogical it has to be wrong. And God has given us brains and the ability to think / reason logically -- so Therefore your God-given logic trumps God's Word as being truthful or not?

So going one step Further -- there are Lots of things in Scripture that are Not logical -- and , yes, we've already talked about this. Maybe it bears repeating. The virgin birth of Jesus Christ is not logical -- the Holy Spirit coming up Mary and impregnating her without the help of the ***** from a human man is NOT logical Or biologically possible. Yet, God's Word tells us that it happened exactly that way. No human being came in contact with Mary -- yet she Did conceive and gave birth to Jesus Christ.

That creates a conflict which involves logic. According to you, Soo...........

 

[Butch5]

So -- your perspective is that IF the Jews had accepted Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah from the 1st - that no one else would be eligible For salvation. So - since they weren't being cooperative that
salvation was , therefore , was extended to the rest of us. So Their rejection was being used by God to accept us After all. God was Not surprised by any of 'this' -- He had our salvation planned from the beginning.

I don't think that. Paul says that Israel has been blinded in part that the Gentiles may be brought in. What I'm saying is that all of this is done through the Jews.

 

[Sue D.]

Sounds kind of like you're giving the Jews positive credit for being disobedient and not accepting Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah. The end justifies the means?

Blinded? how about flat out rejection.

 

[Butch5]

So -- If I'm understanding you correctly -- your stating that you interpret that conflict as being illogical and so therefore can't be correct. Because if something is illogical it has to be wrong. And God has given us brains and the ability to think / reason logically -- so Therefore your God-given logic trumps God's Word as being truthful or not?

So going one step Further -- there are Lots of things in Scripture that are Not logical -- and , yes, we've already talked about this. Maybe it bears repeating. The virgin birth of Jesus Christ is not logical -- the Holy Spirit coming up Mary and impregnating her without the help of the ***** from a human man is NOT logical Or biologically possible. Yet, God's Word tells us that it happened exactly that way. No human being came in contact with Mary -- yet she Did conceive and gave birth to Jesus Christ.

That creates a conflict which involves logic. According to you, Soo...........

Sue, miracles aren't illogical. Logic is the process of reasoning. Something that is illogical has a flaw in the chain of reasoning. For example, all mammals bear live young. Cats are mammals, therefore cats can fly. While the two premises are true the conclusion is false. The reasoning breaks down.

You said, "so Therefore your God-given logic trumps God's Word as being truthful or not? ". This reasoning is flawed. Everyone is interpreting the text they read. Therefore you also must use logic to determine what the Bible says. The question for everyone is whether or not we reason correctly. If we do it's logical and we can come to a proper conclusion. If it's not we're likely to come to an incorrect conclusion. Either way we must reason through what we read.

As I said, both interpretations you mention from Acts 13:48 can only be true if the Jews get to choose and the Gentiles don't. However, the Scriptures tell us that it is by faith. Paul didn't say, theough choice you have been saved.

One of the problems we have in Christiamity is that people throw out logic. Once that is done anyone can make any nonsensical claim and anyone can believe one.

 

[Butch5]

Sounds kind of like you're giving the Jews positive credit for being disobedient and not accepting Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah. The end justifies the means?

Blinded? how about flat out rejection.

Their rejection was because they were being blinded.

 

[Sue D.]

They rejected Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah. They had the Old Testament prophets to listen to just like anyone else back then. So you're saying that everyone is blinded and that's why 'we' / everyone then and now / are not actually rejecting -- they are just suffering from spiritual blindness.

Sue, miracles aren't illogical. Logic is the process of reasoning. Something that is illogical has a flaw in the chain of reasoning. For example, all mammals bear live young. Cats are mammals, therefore cats can fly. While the two premises are true the conclusion is false. The reasoning breaks down.

You said, "so Therefore your God-given logic trumps God's Word as being truthful or not? ". This reasoning is flawed. Everyone is interpreting the text they read. Therefore you also must use logic to determine what the Bible says. The question for everyone is whether or not we reason correctly. If we do it's logical and we can come to a proper conclusion. If it's not we're likely to come to an incorrect conclusion. Either way we must reason through what we read.

As I said, both interpretations you mention from Acts 13:48 can only be true if the Jews get to choose and the Gentiles don't. However, the Scriptures tell us that it is by faith. Paul didn't say, theough choice you have been saved.

One of the problems we have in Christiamity is that people throw out logic. Once that is done anyone can make any nonsensical claim and anyone can believe one.

Your example of the cat and a flaw in the chain of reasoning. That example is definitely Not logical. The only premise in your example that is True is that cats are mammals. They Don't fly. They Do give birth to their young -- they don't hatch.

Just as any one else can accept or reject. So - in effect -- Everyone is being blinded. But it's by faith in hearing God's Word that a person is saved. Because of God's grace being shown to us.

Without the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ we are All doomed -- blinded,

A believer Does have the Holy Spirit to guide us to the truth. And, as I've shared -- God's Truth isn't necessarily what we would call logical.

My brain is getting tired. If anyone else is following this dialogue -- feel free to enter in.

 

[Butch5]

They rejected Jesus Christ as their promised Messiah. They had the Old Testament prophets to listen to just like anyone else back then. So you're saying that everyone is blinded and that's why 'we' / everyone then and now / are not actually rejecting -- they are just suffering from spiritual blindness.


Your example of the cat and a flaw in the chain of reasoning. That example is definitely Not logical. The only premise in your example that is True is that cats are mammals. They Don't fly. They Do give birth to their young -- they don't hatch.

Just as any one else can accept or reject. So - in effect -- Everyone is being blinded. But it's by faith in hearing God's Word that a person is saved. Because of God's grace being shown to us.

Without the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ we are All doomed -- blinded,

A believer Does have the Holy Spirit to guide us to the truth. And, as I've shared -- God's Truth isn't necessarily what we would call logical.

My brain is getting tired. If anyone else is following this dialogue -- feel free to enter in.

What you've mentioned above is not what I'm talking about. Paul said that blindness in part has happened to Israel so that the Gentiles could he brought in.

For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

God has a plan. A plan, a detailed purpose. It's how He has decided to accomplish something. A plan has steps each step works toward the completion of the plan. The Bible lays out God's plan. However, we have to understand it in context. God chose the people of Israel through which to bring about His plan. If we are to understand the plan and the Bible we need to understand it in context. If we take different passages that are meant for one group and start applying them wherever we want to we won't understand the plan. The Bible tells us Israel is Gods elect people. The Gentiles were not and are not Gods elect people. As Gentiles we partake of the promises by being grafted into Israel.

 

[Sue D.]

Okay -- every so often I'll concede that you're right regarding the Jews and Gentiles. I looked up the Scriptures and 'okay'.

Except that I don't think it means that all the Jews will be saved. Maybe as a people group. There Are Messianic Jews. and during the 7 yr trib time -- there will be 144,000 Jews going 'out' to evangelize the Jewish population.

I've nothing against the Jews -- I simply don't believe that All of them Will be saved. Any more than all Gentiles will be.

 

[Sue D.]

I was just reading your last post again. That Israel is God's elect people. They are God's chosen people as Children of Israel. But that's not the same as being God's elect.

Are you saying that Israel becomes the Church? They are two separate groups.

 

[Butch5]

Okay -- every so often I'll concede that you're right regarding the Jews and Gentiles. I looked up the Scriptures and 'okay'.

Except that I don't think it means that all the Jews will be saved. Maybe as a people group. There Are Messianic Jews. and during the 7 yr trib time -- there will be 144,000 Jews going 'out' to evangelize the Jewish population.

I've nothing against the Jews -- I simply don't believe that All of them Will be saved. Any more than all Gentiles will be.

I'm not sure what Paul means when he says all Israel shall be saved.

 

[Butch5]

I was just reading your last post again. That Israel is God's elect people. They are God's chosen people as Children of Israel. But that's not the same as being God's elect.

Are you saying that Israel becomes the Church? They are two separate groups.

No, I'm saying the Gentiles become Israel.
Israel is God's elect. If one is going to be saved they have to become a part of Israel. Paul explains this in Roman's 11 when he explains how the Gentiles are grafted into the Olive Tree. The Old Covenant was made with Israel and the New Covenant was made with Israel. Everything is through Israel.

Many modern Christians have been taught a division between the old and new covenants and between Israel and the church. That's a shame because there is no division.