Is the human soul mortal or immortal?

[Butch5]

Hi Beresheet. Mat 22:30 is saying that those who are raised will not marry. The angels don't marry. There's nothing there about having bodies like angels.

How could God know Jeremiah before He formed him? The same way an architect know a building before he designs it. He plans it in his mind. God had plans for Jeremiah before he was born.

Romans 9 doesn't say that Loved Jacob before he was born. It says He chose him before he was born.

Have you considered that angels are referred to a sons of God?

 

[B-A-C]

B-C-A, you list verses that say that also. 1Cir 15:53 this mortal must put on immortality. You mentioned that we never exited before our physical bodies. How could God know Jeremiah before He formed him in his mothers belly if that where so. How could God love Jacob and hate Esau before they were born. Cause God did know them before He put them in a flesh body. Open your eyes my friends.

It could be that God looked into the future and knew who Jeremiah would become, what kind of person he would be.
That would agree with 1 Cor 15:44-46;

On the other hand, maybe God actually knows the spiritual us before me are are born, in that case we don't have to born again,
and 1 Cor 15:44-46; is wrong.

I choose to believe the way that agree with all scriptures, not just one version of it.

 

[Beresheet]

B-A-C your underestimating the power of free will. Free will in time exposes ones true heart and mind. That’s why God uses free will in proving His children. When God gives one free will, God will only sit back and watch and record their actions in the book.

When you look up the definition of eternal and immortal they are very akin. A lot of the words used to describe eternal are used to describe immortal. No doubt God is immortal and He wants to give His children eternal life.

 

[Dave M]

God will only sit back and watch and record their actions in the book.

God is the one who invented time, he can back and forth and see the future all he wants. He creates the future for us, just look at prophecy that is fulfilled, our Bible is the only book that fulfills prophecy. He foreknew and predestined all of us before we were born he knew if we would be believers or not. (no I dont think man can fully understand this because we do have responsibility to choose to believe).

Romans 8:29-30
For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

 

[Sue D.]

Beresheet -- God , alone, is the only One who knows who His elect are. He alone knows who will and who will not accept His way of salvation. . But none of the rest of your comments are Biblical. Whether it's from Gnostic gospels or from Mormonism -- where ever -- but it's Not Biblical.

Of course satan rebelled. That's 'common knowledge' -- but angels are not redeemable. People are.

And, yes, God Does have a plan for our lives -- well - for born-again believers. He alone knows what everyone will do. It's called omniscience. All knowledge. And with a believer -- God puts in our heart the desire To do His will -- and sometimes we mess it up because we Are human. God Does forgive. And 'we' continue on with our daily lives doing what God wants us to do.

The 'age' we have is Now. When our physical bodies' die -- we have eternity Forever.

 

[B-A-C]

ἐκλεκτός
eklektos
ek-lek-tos'
From G1586; select; by implication favorite: - chosen, elect.

One curious thing about the word "elect". It is only used in a "pre" context. Even in the Bible.
For example... here in the US we have elections in November. The outcome is already decided.
But the new president doesn't actually step into office as President until the next year.

In the meantime... he is called the President "elect". He is not the president yet.
The elect are those who "will" be saved... but they aren't saved yet.

In almost every single instance of this word being used... it's talking about future events.. that have not happened yet.

Matt 24:22; "Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.
Matt 24:24; "For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Matt 24:31; "And He will send forth His angels with A GREAT TRUMPET and THEY WILL GATHER TOGETHER His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.
Mark 13:20; "Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.
Mark 13:22; for false Christs and false prophets will arise, and will show signs and wonders, in order to lead astray, if possible, the elect.
Mark 13:27; "And then He will send forth the angels, and will gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest end of the earth to the farthest end of heaven.
Rom 8:33; Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;

Every one of these verses is in the context of the last days, the tribulation, the second coming, or the judgment.
None of these things have happened yet.

 

[Sue D.]

A born-again believer does Not take on the body type of the angels when they die. No one becomes an angel upon their death.

Many years ago when my grandson died, there was a group of mothers I had started to interact with , but I couldn't continue because they were stating two dates -- one was the date of the birth of their child and then the date their child gained their angel wings / became an angel. That was their way of coping with the death of their child. But I couldn't bring myself to accept the 'angel's wings' concept because Scripture does not say that.

Any more than when my Mom or husband passed away -- they didn't become angels.

 

[B-A-C]

A born-again believer does Not take on the body type of the angels when they die. No one becomes an angel upon their death.

Any more than when my Mom or husband passed away -- they didn't become angels.

You know it's interesting. Jehovah's witnesses, don't believe Jesus was resurrected as "Jesus".
But rather He was "resurrected" as Michael the arch-angel.
(I'm not sure how that works but..)

Almost always in the OT "sons of God" are angels... Genesis and Job are the only two books that use this expression.
I see nowhere in the Old testament that men are called "sons of God"

Gen 6:2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose.
Gen 6:4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them.
Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the LORD.
Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

In the NT "sons of God" are Christians. I see nowhere in the New testament where angels are called "sons of God".

Matt 5:9; "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
Luke 20:36; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.
Rom 8:14; For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.
Rom 8:19; For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
Gal 3:26; For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.

 

[Beresheet]

Most believe that Satan’s rebellion took place at the beginning of Genesis. It won’t fit my friend. In fact God’s word says it happened way before the book of Genesis.

 

[Hekuran]

Most believe that Satan’s rebellion took place at the beginning of Genesis. It won’t fit my friend. In fact God’s word says it happened way before the book of Genesis.

When you say 'God's word', do you mean the Bible? I don't recall reading any such thing.

 

[Butch5]

When the Bible speaks of the elect as a group of people it is referring to Isrsel. They are God's elect. Reformed thinkers have hijacked the word and applied it to Christians as though God had chosen Christia s before they were born.

 

[Sue D.]

Butch5 -- how about This perspective -- it's true that Israel / Jews Are God's chosen people -- salvation has been given to the Jews first And was extended to the Gentiles in New Testament.

Which means that the Gentiles would be included in God's elect.

God's omniscience / all knowledge about Everything / says that He alone knows who will and who Won't accept His plan for our personal salvation. John 3:16 - for God so loved the World that He gave... His Son, Jesus Christ. ... that who so ever believeth ....."

And we Also have 'God's elect" -- those He has chosen from creation. And only He knows who they Are.

'We' are told to share the Gospel unto salvation with All who are willing to Listen.

John 17: 1 "When Jesus had spoken these words, He lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your son that the Son may glorify you, vs 2 since you have given Him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom You have given Him."

vs 4 "I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do." vs 6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were , and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word."

A very interesting passage to think about.

 

[B-A-C]

The book of Romans was written to Gentiles.

Rom 8:33; Who will bring a charge against God's elect? God is the one who justifies;
Rom 8:34; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us.

It seems some Gentiles are called the elect also.

 

[Butch5]

Butch5 -- how about This perspective -- it's true that Israel / Jews Are God's chosen people -- salvation has been given to the Jews first And was extended to the Gentiles in New Testament.

Which means that the Gentiles would be included in God's elect.

God's omniscience / all knowledge about Everything / says that He alone knows who will and who Won't accept His plan for our personal salvation. John 3:16 - for God so loved the World that He gave... His Son, Jesus Christ. ... that who so ever believeth ....."

And we Also have 'God's elect" -- those He has chosen from creation. And only He knows who they Are.

'We' are told to share the Gospel unto salvation with All who are willing to Listen.

John 17: 1 "When Jesus had spoken these words, He lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come; glorify your son that the Son may glorify you, vs 2 since you have given Him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom You have given Him."

vs 4 "I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do." vs 6 "I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were , and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word."

A very interesting passage to think about.

Hi Sue,

I would submit that the elect speaks of Israel. Christians do partake of the promises made to Israel by being grafted in as Paul says. But again, the promises were made to Israel.

I often see in Arminuan/Calvinist debates these competing ideas. One, that God chose who would be saved, and two, the idea the God looked down the corridors of time to see who would believe. I don't believe either of these idea has a basis in Scripture.

God's choosing was of Israel. It is said to be forknown. That's because it fulfills the promises made to Abraham. When God told Abraham to offer up Isaac He swore an oath to Abraham that through him all nations would be blessed.

The elect in Scripture isn't about God choosing who will he saved. That whole debate is based on a false premise.

Regarding the passages you posted of Jesus' words, I would submit that they are speaking of those Jews. Jesus said that He had only come to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. His ministry was to the Jews. Those Jews who were given to Christ were for a purpose. He was preparing them to go out into the world and spread the Gospel. He also said that if He was lifted up he would draw all men.

 

[Sue D.]

And we also have Acts 13:46 - 48 --- that entire passage. The Jewish people rejecting and Paul and Barnabas being told by the Lord to extend salvation message to the Gentiles and the Gentiles were very glad.

 

[Butch5]

.

 

[Sue D.]

Ah, Butch5 -- the Jews Rejected Christ -- you're referring to a time in the future -- the 144,000 who will be sealed to go into the 7 yrs. of tribulation to evangelize the Jews.

The Jewish population as a group have rejected Jesus Christ as their Promised Messiah. So -- 'we' are Now in the times of the Gentiles -- the rest of the world. I'm a Gentile as are most people who I know.

 

[Butch5]

And we also have Acts 13:46 - 48 --- that entire passage. The Jewish people rejecting and Paul and Barnabas being told by the Lord to extend salvation message to the Gentiles and the Gentiles were very glad.

Hi Sue,

In that passage we see that the Jews rejected Paul's message. He said they judged themselves unworthy of eternal life. This tell us that Paul didn't believe that some were chosen for salvation apart from their will. If we interpret that the Gentiles in verse 48 were chosen to be saved apart from their will we create a conflict with what Paul had just said about the Jews

 

[Sue D.]

Butch5 -- your newer post didn't come through.

 

[Butch5]

Ah, Butch5 -- the Jews Rejected Christ -- you're referring to a time in the future -- the 144,000 who will be sealed to go into the 7 yrs. of tribulation to evangelize the Jews.

The Jewish population as a group have rejected Jesus Christ as their Promised Messiah. So -- 'we' are Now in the times of the Gentiles -- the rest of the world. I'm a Gentile as are most people who I know.

I agree we're in the times of the Gentiles but everything comes through the Jews.