Is the human soul mortal or immortal?

[Butch5]

Butch5, I know that’s not meat, it’s called waking someone up. The topics I try to explain deal with strong meat. The meat is so important in the end times, without meat one will make grave mistakes against God’s word, endangering their very soul. And they will commit these grave mistakes unbeknownst to them, all cause they never solidified the strong meat in their heart and mind.

You all can pin any title you want on my beliefs but it just you alls opinion. I could tag your all with some titles since you all don’t what I’m talking about for the most part and everything I talk on is in the good ole King James Bible.

Since you are the authority here please tell me what the milk of Gods word is and what the strong meat of Gods word is. Point it out to me. Or if you like, just point out a few pieces of strong meat on the good ole King James Bible. God was more concerned about His followers getting the strong meat than the baby food. Any Christian can absorb baby food rather quickly. When you think about it, it’s just good ole common sense using just the ten laws God wants us to abide by.

You keep throwing the Mormon title at me and I’m not a Mormon. Was part of that church as a young child cause that where my parents took me. I basically knew nothing in detail of their teaching other than the baby food taught from the KJB. I’m a non denominational Christian. There is just one word, just one Christ, just one God and I seek all three.

Hi Beresheet,

I didn't call you anything. I'm also not an authority here. However, some of what you are suggesting isn't found in the good old KJV. The idea that souls are immortal is flatly refuted in the KJV. The apostle Paul said that the Father alone has immortality. That should be the end of the discussion. That's a crystal clear statement. That should tell us that any interpretation of another passage that leads us to think a soul is immortal is an incorrect interpretation.

There is nothing in the Scriptures that talk about people getting angelic bodies. The Greek word translated resurrect means to stand again. When Jesus was raised from the dead it was in the same body that was on the cross. The Scriptures also tell us people likewise will be raised in the same body.

Paul tells us what the milk is.

For every one that is a partaker of milk, is unskillful in the word of justice: for he is a little child. But strong meat is for the perfect; for them who by custom have their senses exercised to the discerning of good and evil. Wherefore leaving the word of the beginning of Christ, let us go on to things more perfect, not laying again the foundation of penance from dead works, and of faith towards God, Of the doctrine of baptisms, and imposition of hands, and of the resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

According to Paul this is the milk. Here is the meat.

And we desire that every one of you shew forth the same carefulness to the accomplishing of hope unto the end: That you become not slothful, but followers of them, who through faith and patience shall inherit the promises. For God making promise to Abraham, because he had no one greater by whom he might swear, swore by himself, Saying: Unless blessing I shall bless thee, and multiplying I shall multiply thee. And so patiently enduring he obtained the promise. For men swear by one greater than themselves: and an oath for confirmation is the end of all their controversy. Wherein God, meaning more abundantly to shew to the heirs of the promise the immutability of his counsel, interposed an oath: That by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we may have the strongest comfort, who have fled for refuge to hold fast the hope set before us. Which we have as an anchor of the soul, sure and firm, and which entereth in even within the veil; Where the forerunner Jesus is entered for us, made a high priest for ever according to the order of Melchisedech.

According to Paul, the promises to Abraham are meat.

 

[B-A-C]

There is nothing in the Scriptures that talk about people getting angelic bodies. The Greek word translated resurrect means to stand again. When Jesus was raised from the dead it was in the same body that was on the cross. The Scriptures also tell us people likewise will be raised in the same body.

The part about "angelic bodies" I agree with you.

Our old body.. no.

1 Cor 15:35; But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
1 Cor 15:36; You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
1 Cor 15:37; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
1 Cor 15:38; But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
1 Cor 15:39; All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
1 Cor 15:40; There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
1 Cor 15:41; There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1 Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1 Cor 15:43; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1 Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1 Cor 15:47; The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
1 Cor 15:48; As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
1 Cor 15:49; Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

This is the argument against "pre-creation spirit children" ( I know you aren't saying this, but Beresheet is )

1 Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

We never existed before our physical bodies existed.

1 Cor 15:50; Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1 Cor 15:51; Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1 Cor 15:52; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

We are not currently immortal - but we will be.

1 Cor 15:53; For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54; But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

Luke 20:35; but those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry nor are given in marriage;
Luke 20:36; for they cannot even die anymore, because they are like angels, and are sons of God, being sons of the resurrection.

This doesn't mean we become angels, it just means neither us or angels can die anymore.

 

[Butch5]

The part about "angelic bodies" I agree with you.

Our old body.. no.

1 Cor 15:35; But someone will say, "How are the dead raised? And with what kind of body do they come?"
1 Cor 15:36; You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies;
1 Cor 15:37; and that which you sow, you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, perhaps of wheat or of something else.
1 Cor 15:38; But God gives it a body just as He wished, and to each of the seeds a body of its own.
1 Cor 15:39; All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another flesh of birds, and another of fish.
1 Cor 15:40; There are also heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one, and the glory of the earthly is another.
1 Cor 15:41; There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory.
1 Cor 15:42; So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body;
1 Cor 15:43; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;
1 Cor 15:44; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.
1 Cor 15:45; So also it is written, "The first MAN, Adam, BECAME A LIVING SOUL." The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
1 Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.
1 Cor 15:47; The first man is from the earth, earthy; the second man is from heaven.
1 Cor 15:48; As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.
1 Cor 15:49; Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly.

This is the argument against "pre-creation spirit children" ( I know you aren't saying this, but Beresheet is )

1 Cor 15:46; However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural; then the spiritual.

We never existed before our physical bodies existed.

1 Cor 15:50; Now I say this, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
1 Cor 15:51; Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed,
1 Cor 15:52; in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

We are not currently immortal - but we will be.

1 Cor 15:53; For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54; But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

Hi B-A-C,

Look at the passage you quoted. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body. It's the same body. If it's not the same body then it's not resurrection it's reincarnation. The Scriptures speak of resurrection not reincarnation. The Greek word for resurrection literally means to stand again.

 

[B-A-C]

It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body.

Well then, something changed. It was perishable... now it's not.

 

[Butch5]

Well then, something changed. It was perishable... now it's not.

Something likely changes. However, the resurrected people will have access to the tree of life.

 

[Hekuran]

@Butch5 you've done a great job of picking apart misconceptions and some of the pagan baggage that's attached itself to our thoughts on life after death. Its appreciated.

But unless I've missed it, you've not stated clearly what you believe happens after we die. What's your best understanding of what the Bible teaches on this?

I'm seeking understanding, not an argument

 

[Sue D.]

Butch5, I know that’s not meat, it’s called waking someone up. The topics I try to explain deal with strong meat. The meat is so important in the end times, without meat one will make grave mistakes against God’s word, endangering their very soul. And they will commit these grave mistakes unbeknownst to them, all cause they never solidified the strong meat in their heart and mind.

You all can pin any title you want on my beliefs but it just you alls opinion. I could tag your all with some titles since you all don’t what I’m talking about for the most part and everything I talk on is in the good ole King James Bible.

Since you are the authority here please tell me what the milk of Gods word is and what the strong meat of Gods word is. Point it out to me. Or if you like, just point out a few pieces of strong meat on the good ole King James Bible. God was more concerned about His followers getting the strong meat than the baby food. Any Christian can absorb baby food rather quickly. When you think about it, it’s just good ole common sense using just the ten laws God wants us to abide by.

You keep throwing the Mormon title at me and I’m not a Mormon. Was part of that church as a young child cause that where my parents took me. I basically knew nothing in detail of their teaching other than the baby food taught from the KJB. I’m a non denominational Christian. There is just one word, just one Christ, just one God and I seek all three.

@Beresheet -- I don't need to be 'woken up' -- but -- as has been pointed out to you -- that which you are Trying to say is Not in the King James Bible. I'm very familiar With the KJV. I grew up with it.
You said you started out life in the Mormon church because that's what you parents were. Being a non-denominational Christian -- well -- that can mean most Anything being taught.
That which a person starts out life learning Does tend to stick with them for a long time. Children are by nature -- very trusting and Do trust what their parents are teaching them and what they learn at that young age.

And you feel that abiding by the Ten Commandments should be just fine -- I'm assuming that That's what you're referring to at the 'ten laws God wants us to abide by'. Unless that's part Of Mormonism.

But God's Word / KJV or NKJV does Not teach that the Ten Commandments are okay to follow. THAT would be a good-works based salvation. And we know that our own good works does Nothing towards our personal salvation. As per
Ephesians 2:8 - 9. The part of 'not of works, lest any man should boast'. It is by grace that we are saved, through faith.

The topics you Try to deal with are Not found in Scripture -- KJV or otherwise.

Bits and pieces of what you Are talking about Are in the KJV. Various groups Do take just bits and pieces Of God's Word and build some foreign Gospel from them. Some people Will stand upon the 'authority Of' the King James Bible but don't really know what's inside it's pages.

 

[Butch5]

@Butch5 you've done a great job of picking apart misconceptions and some of the pagan baggage that's attached itself to our thoughts on life after death. Its appreciated.

But unless I've missed it, you've not stated clearly what you believe happens after we die. What's your best understanding of what the Bible teaches on this?

I'm seeking understanding, not an argument

Hi Hekuran,

Thanks! I think I did state it somewhere, I've been in several threads. What I believe is that man is a physical being created from the dust as we see in Gen 2:7. I believe that God breathed His breath into man and the man became a living soul. I believe that when a man dies God's breath returns to Him and the man returns to the dust. The soul no longer exists as its components have separated. I beleive this is what happens to everyone including believers. I believe everyone remains dead until the Lord returns and calls the dead to rise. I believe the dead in Christ rise first. Later all of the dead rise and are judged. Anyone not found in the Book of Life is cast into Gehenna, the Lake of fire, where they die a second physical death and are burned up and cease to exist.

That's what I see in Scriptures. To say man is immortal doesn't make sense to me because the gift of God is eternal life. Why would someone who is immortal need eternal life? They already have it. Throughout the Scriptures we see that the wages if sin is death. It's in the Old Testament and the New. That's why ETC makes no sense to me. ETC is not death, its life. Its living forever. Granted it's torture but it's still life. Eternal life is the gift to the righteous, not the wicked.

The icing on the cake for me was when I found that aion can't mean forever. That pretty much sealed the deal. Something that ends can't be forever. That's one of the most important word studies I've done.

 

[Sue D.]

Hi Butch5 -- "that when a man dies, God's breath Returns to Him." Because God Gave us breath that He takes it Back. Interesting. How about a person who dies and someone applies mouth to mouth and the person and revives him. Just doing some thinking as I'm typing.

And the human body Does return to dust. But the soul/ spirit doesn't die. Doesn't that suggest 'soul sleep" ? And we have the episode with Lazarus and the rich man. They weren't experiencing soul sleep. They both died and experienced aware ness of Abraham's bosom. That passage is telling 'us' what Does happen when a person dies.

You're referring to the rapture taking place. At That time, the dead in Christ Do rise first and then those of us who are here will be caught up, too.

Those who are Not in Christ Are in Gehenna / Hadees / Sheol // whatever a person chooses to call it. Now . And they will eventually end up in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.

I was reading 'somewhere' -- probably an article I've come across that Death ceases to exist. That in the end -- everyone who's ever lived Will stand before the throne of God and be judged. And heaven/ The New Jerusalem will be the eternal home for believers. And Lake of fire and brimstone will be the eternal home for non-believers.

Man is Not born immortal -- only God is Immortal -- totally.

I think you mean 'eon' -- an indefinite and very long period of time. The word "aion" is talking about something entirely different, I just 'Googled' it. Where did you find your term "aion" cause I've been looking and can't find it.

Okay -- what is ETC besides etcetera.

 

[Hekuran]

Hi Hekuran,

Thanks! I think I did state it somewhere, I've been in several threads. What I believe is that man is a physical being created from the dust as we see in Gen 2:7. I believe that God breathed His breath into man and the man became a living soul. I believe that when a man dies God's breath returns to Him and the man returns to the dust. The soul no longer exists as its components have separated. I beleive this is what happens to everyone including believers. I believe everyone remains dead until the Lord returns and calls the dead to rise. I believe the dead in Christ rise first. Later all of the dead rise and are judged. Anyone not found in the Book of Life is cast into Gehenna, the Lake of fire, where they die a second physical death and are burned up and cease to exist.

That's what I see in Scriptures. To say man is immortal doesn't make sense to me because the gift of God is eternal life. Why would someone who is immortal need eternal life? They already have it. Throughout the Scriptures we see that the wages if sin is death. It's in the Old Testament and the New. That's why ETC makes no sense to me. ETC is not death, its life. Its living forever. Granted it's torture but it's still life. Eternal life is the gift to the righteous, not the wicked.

The icing on the cake for me was when I found that aion can't mean forever. That pretty much sealed the deal. Something that ends can't be forever. That's one of the most important word studies I've done.

Thanks, so good to read such clear thinking.

It was a few years ago that I was directed to read Romans 8 and 1 Corinthians 15 properly, and I understood what resurrection actually meant, that God's plan was to restore Creation and give us new life in redeemed and renewed bodies. It was totally transformational in my appreciation of the world today, and of my hope in the age to come.

 

[Hekuran]

Hi Butch5 -- "that when a man dies, God's breath Returns to Him." Because God Gave us breath that He takes it Back. Interesting. How about a person who dies and someone applies mouth to mouth and the person and revives him. Just doing some thinking as I'm typing.

And the human body Does return to dust. But the soul/ spirit doesn't die. Doesn't that suggest 'soul sleep" ? And we have the episode with Lazarus and the rich man. They weren't experiencing soul sleep. They both died and experienced aware ness of Abraham's bosom. That passage is telling 'us' what Does happen when a person dies.

You're referring to the rapture taking place. At That time, the dead in Christ Do rise first and then those of us who are here will be caught up, too.

Those who are Not in Christ Are in Gehenna / Hadees / Sheol // whatever a

Hi Butch5 -- "that when a man dies, God's breath Returns to Him." Because God Gave us breath that He takes it Back. Interesting. How about a person who dies and someone applies mouth to mouth and the person and revives him. Just doing some thinking as I'm typing.

And the human body Does return to dust. But the soul/ spirit doesn't die. Doesn't that suggest 'soul sleep" ? And we have the episode with Lazarus and the rich man. They weren't experiencing soul sleep. They both died and experienced aware ness of Abraham's bosom. That passage is telling 'us' what Does happen when a person dies.

You're referring to the rapture taking place. At That time, the dead in Christ Do rise first and then those of us who are here will be caught up, too.

Those who are Not in Christ Are in Gehenna / Hadees / Sheol // whatever a person chooses to call it. Now . And they will eventually end up in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.

I was reading 'somewhere' -- probably an article I've come across that Death ceases to exist. That in the end -- everyone who's ever lived Will stand before the throne of God and be judged. And heaven/ The New Jerusalem will be the eternal home for believers. And Lake of fire and brimstone will be the eternal home for non-believers.

Man is Not born immortal -- only God is Immortal -- totally.

I think you mean 'eon' -- an indefinite and very long period of time. The word "aion" is talking about something entirely different, I just 'Googled' it. Where did you find your term "aion" cause I've been looking and can't find it.

Okay -- what is ETC besides etcetera.

Paul says the last enemy to destroyed is death 1 Corinthians.

I think spellcheck may have had a hand in correcting ECT. Eternal Conscious Torment.

Aion is Greek root of aeon or eon.

 

[Butch5]

Thanks, so good to read such clear thinking.

It was a few years ago that I was directed to read Romans 8 and 1 Corinthians 15 properly, and I understood what resurrection actually meant, that God's plan was to restore Creation and give us new life in redeemed and renewed bodies. It was totally transformational in my appreciation of the world today, and of my hope in the age to come.

It's definitely transformational. When you suddenly see the over all plan it's such a beautiful picture. Have you investigated how it all works out through Abraham?

It changed everything for me when I saw how Gods plan has been worked through Abraham and the Jews. It's not really taught in Churches. I think because Christian's don't really know. You've got all of this denominational stuff being taught and they're missing the boat. It's sad when I hear people say we're a New Testment Church. That's so sad because your hope comes from the Old Testament. People are taught that the goal in life is to go to Heaven when the Bible teaches that our hope is the promises made to Abraham, that he would inherit the land.

I'm glad you came to that realization. It opens the door to more.

 

[Butch5]

Thanks for clearing that up. I was typing on my phone and it does as it pleases

 

[Butch5]

Hi Butch5 -- "that when a man dies, God's breath Returns to Him." Because God Gave us breath that He takes it Back. Interesting. How about a person who dies and someone applies mouth to mouth and the person and revives him. Just doing some thinking as I'm typing.

And the human body Does return to dust. But the soul/ spirit doesn't die. Doesn't that suggest 'soul sleep" ? And we have the episode with Lazarus and the rich man. They weren't experiencing soul sleep. They both died and experienced aware ness of Abraham's bosom. That passage is telling 'us' what Does happen when a person dies.

You're referring to the rapture taking place. At That time, the dead in Christ Do rise first and then those of us who are here will be caught up, too.

Those who are Not in Christ Are in Gehenna / Hadees / Sheol // whatever a person chooses to call it. Now . And they will eventually end up in the Lake of Fire and Brimstone.

I was reading 'somewhere' -- probably an article I've come across that Death ceases to exist. That in the end -- everyone who's ever lived Will stand before the throne of God and be judged. And heaven/ The New Jerusalem will be the eternal home for believers. And Lake of fire and brimstone will be the eternal home for non-believers.

Man is Not born immortal -- only God is Immortal -- totally.

I think you mean 'eon' -- an indefinite and very long period of time. The word "aion" is talking about something entirely different, I just 'Googled' it. Where did you find your term "aion" cause I've been looking and can't find it.

Okay -- what is ETC besides etcetera.

Hi Sue,

I don't have time to give a full reply at the moment. Hekuran mentioned that ECT is Eternal Conscious Torment and that aion is a Greek word. In English its eon.

 

[Sue D.]

Well -- the 'church' started in the New Testament.

Well the Children of Israel did inherit the Promised Land. That's always been the plan.

But our eternal home is what 'we' are looking forward to. As well as being here on earth and living a life pleasing to God -- Being a light in a dark world. So both would be true.

Okay -- Eternal Conscious Torment.

The world of denominations came out of the Protestant Reformation -- 'protesting' the non-Biblical beliefs that were in the RCC church. Martin Luther's 99 Thesis was a start. The 'protest' started with in the RCC and didn't get anywhere.

So -- over many years -- the Lutheran church , Presbyterians, Methodists came to be -- and Much later the Baptist church developed.

The word "eon" does Not mean ceasing to exist -- it Does mean an indefinite, very long period of time.

Are you saying that you believe the church is Israel? Or Israel is the 'church'.

 

[Sue D.]

There is only One Son of God -- that is Jesus Christ.

The entity we know as satan -- started out as a beautiful angel in heaven by the name of Lucifer. He became pridefull in his heart. That pride resulted in rebellion. That rebellion was contagious and resulted in Lots of angels being thrown out of heaven. They ended up here on earth and they will eventually be facing eternity in lake of fire and brimstone.

God and only God has all-knowledge of Everything. God's all-knowledge does Not mean that anyone existed in any form before they were born. God simple Did and still Does know what would and Will happen before it did / does and will take place.

Actually -- looking up 1 Corinthian 15:53 "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. vs 54 "So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality , then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written: Death is swallowed up in victory." and the following verses are just as important. vs 57 "But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ."

 

[Beresheet]

God does not know who will overcome and who will not. If God had that knowledge he would not be putting His children through the plan of salvation. He would have just skipped the plan of salvation and picked the one that He knew would overcome. a That’s not that hard to reason out. God would not waste time on the plan of salvation if all He had to do is pick the children that He knew would overcome.

 

[Sue D.]

Beresheet -- I don't know about you. God's plan of salvation is very simple to understand / all that is need to do is accept it. Pure and simple.

Your concept are not based on Scripture.

 

[Curtis]

God does not know who will overcome and who will not. If God had that knowledge he would not be putting His children through the plan of salvation. He would have just skipped the plan of salvation and picked the one that He knew would overcome. a That’s not that hard to reason out. God would not waste time on the plan of salvation if all He had to do is pick the children that He knew would overcome.

How can a person be an overcomer if there was nothing to overcome? The Lord God knows everyone who will overcome, and not only that, he knew who they were before the world ever began! (2 Tim 1:9) There are millions of people who have not been born or overcome yet, but he knows everyone who will. This is what happens when a spiritual being who knows all things before they happen lets it happen. The world will end when everyone who God knows overcomes.

 

[Hekuran]

God does not know who will overcome and who will not. If God had that knowledge he would not be putting His children through the plan of salvation. He would have just skipped the plan of salvation and picked the one that He knew would overcome. a That’s not that hard to reason out. God would not waste time on the plan of salvation if all He had to do is pick the children that He knew would overcome.

I'm a father and to help my children mature and grow into healthy responsible adults I am frequently giving them challenges and tests for them to overcome.

God does much the same with us to bring us to maturity.