Is God Really in Control?

[jiggyfly]

Anyone have any scripture that clearly indicates free will?

Who of us chose to have the curse of Adam's sin? Has anyone chose to be tested? Anyone here choose their natural parents, or the color of their skin? I think not but God did indeed make these choices not according to our will or desire but according to His own will and purpose.

26 And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don’t know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words.27 And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God’s own will.28 And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them.
Romans 8:26-28 (NLT)

10 This son was our ancestor Isaac. When he married Rebekah, she gave birth to twins. 11 But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes;12 he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.” 13 In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.”
14 Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not!15 For God said to Moses,


“I will show mercy to anyone I choose,

and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”


16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
Romans 9:10-16 (NLT)

11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.
Eph 1:11 (NLT)

10 God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph 3:10-11 (NLT)

9 For God saved us and called us to live a holy life. He did this, not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan from before the beginning of time—to show us his grace through Christ Jesus.
2 Tim 1:9 (NLT)

God does not owe us anything nor does He have to do anything according to our will, if He did not consider his own Son's will why should He work according to ours. God is not bound by our will as the scriptures I posted clearly indicate but He works all things according to His will and purpose. Now we also know that He does this with love and patience, gently at first but firm if needed because He is a loving Father.

FYI I am not Calvinist nor am I in the Arminian camp I find both to be errant.

 

[gdemoss]

Do you really believe that a loving GOD would kill HIS kids just to teach them something?! Would you put your sons hand into a fire just to teach him something? Then not even tell him what you want him to learn? Can you honestly say that would be love? If you can then something is seriously wrong.

I believe what I read in scripture. From 1 Cor 11:

27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

We are judged by God with sickness and death for taking the Lords supper in an unworthy manner. You claim this is Satan's doing though? It is a God who is in control giving one over to Satan for punishment.

From Hebrews 12:

5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

From Google:
scourge/skərj/
Noun:
A whip used as an instrument of punishment.
Verb:
Whip (someone) as a punishment.
Synonyms:
noun. whip - plague - lash - pest
verb. whip - flog - lash - flagellate - castigate - punish

From 2 Corinthians 6:

9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;

Gods chastening and scourging hurt very bad. They are unpleasant but not to be despised. I have received from the hand of God and truly understand that he loves me enough to correct me that I not perish with those who have a false Jesus. It isn't I who says it happens, it is God himself through his Word. You will have to argue with him.

I know that you would not do this thing. Why do you say GOD would? GOD sends a tornado to tear down my house because I forgot to pray before I ate. Or GOD destroyed my health because HE wants me to learn something. What does HE want me to learn? Its a secret.

God is not arbitrary in deciding what punishment he doles out to correct.

Personally Gary I think you're just spitting out words to see how they splatter, because what you say is not what the Bible says.

This is a veiled accusation of heresy. You are witness to what I believe. You will be a witness in my favor at the judgment seat of Christ as you explain how I tried to make you believe that what I have said is true. I will have many witnesses who hate what I say to verify that I have spoken as such, having confessed that God the Father is God and Jesus Christ his Son is Lord over all. That God judges his people for their own good by using all means at his disposal including giving them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that their soul may be saved.

You say GOD judges using these things yet the WORD says that Satan does these things.
John 10:9-11 (King James Version)


<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26491">9</sup>I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26492">10</sup>The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.
<sup class="versenum" id="en-KJV-26493">11</sup>I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.


GOD says that HE has come that we might have life. Sickness, wars, floods, volcanoes, earthquakes are not life. They are destruction. They are from the enemy, not GOD.

The error comes in by thinking that God is the one who actually does the acts of chastening and scourging that his children receive. This is the crux of the argument that we have been discussing. God is sovereign over all and in control. He bares the responsibility for rightfully judging people then allowing Satan to inflict them with all of the diseases and such. God sends his righteous angels to destroy the wicked and unbelieving like the 180,000 in the OT during Hezekiah's rule.

In the New Covenant GOD tells us how to get Life at least two hundred times. HE never once said that HE would make me sick to teach me something. HE said HE would chastise me if I got off track and went my own way. Chastise means 'to correct' not 'to punish' HE corrects with HIS WORD. HE corrects us with HIS LOVE. Not with a big stick.

Proven wrong using scripture above.

I carry scars on my body from my earthly parents 'teaching' me. Yet in thirty seven years as a son of GOD I have yet to recieve even the smallest bruise. Yet GOD has chastised me many times. I'm not a quick study at all, and I often try to go my own way. Yet HE continually jerks me up short with HIS WORD. Not sickness, not earthquakes, HE's never burned my house down. HE's never hurt me in the slightest. HE uses HIS WORD. And I have to fall onto my knees before it.

According to the scripture posted above that would make you a ******* and not a son, if in fact you have never been scourged (whipped) by him.

What I'm saying Gary is that I believe you are listening to the wrong teacher if you truely believe GOD hurts HIS kids to teach them. HE doesn't even judge us because we've already been judged. JESUS took our judgement and died and went to hell for us. HE made us the righteousness of GOD in HIS anointing. Now the FATHER looks at us and sees only righteousness.

This heresy is not supported by scripture. God sees us as we are. He who does righteousness is righteous even as Jesus is righteous, but the wrath of God abides on the children of disobedience.

So if you want to totally negate what JESUS did for us......

To honor what Jesus did for us, one must emulate him by picking up their cross, dying to themselves and resisting sin unto blood, even unto death if necessary. But as it is written, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

People deny that we must be obedient followers of Jesus to have life. This error is heresy and those who do such things shall not enter into the kingdom of God.

I say these things not to condemn you but I warn you. I don't want you just as a witness who explains to God what I was teaching, but as one who ends up with eternal life as well. In your other post you stated that you consider me a brother. This too goes against scripture because if what I am saying is false, it is heresy and those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom. My brothers and sisters are they that do the will of God my Father who is in heaven. His will is for every child he receives to follow Jesus his Son and glorify him in doing so. If you are in the Jesus paid it all so I don't have to do anything camp, then you are not abiding in the Word of God, nor doing the Will of God which is your sanctification and therefore not a brother of mine.

Consider what I say as Jesus' message is not a popular one.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

A note to any and all who would question the nature of my post. I suggest you read the epistle to Titus which declares the reason for the installation of Bishops in churches due to the heresy present within them. Or Jude who exhorts us to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. And finally Paul who spoke to Timothy on heresy and said that he was to study to show himself unto others as one who God himself would approve of and to shun profane babblings of heresy that eat as a cancer and subvert the souls of men, over throwing true faith in God. We are to have compassion on some and others save with fear. I judged this man to be one who has had the opportunity over 37 years of walking with the Lord (his claim) to have had ample benefit from those who have been compassionate with him. If he knows not the fear of the Lord, he will not be saved and God would have all men to come to the knowledge of the truth. We must do what is right in his eyes or else suffer with the unbelievers who's works also deny Christ. We shall all appear before the judgment seat of Christ our Lord. Amen.

 

[El Hombre viejo]

I believe what I read in scripture. From 1 Cor 11:

27Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.

We are judged by God with sickness and death for taking the Lords supper in an unworthy manner. You claim this is Satan's doing though? It is a God who is in control giving one over to Satan for punishment.

From Hebrews 12:

5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.

From Google:
scourge/skərj/
Noun:
A whip used as an instrument of punishment.
Verb:
Whip (someone) as a punishment.
Synonyms:
noun. whip - plague - lash - pest
verb. whip - flog - lash - flagellate - castigate - punish

From 2 Corinthians 6:

9 As unknown, and yet well known; as dying, and, behold, we live; as chastened, and not killed;

Gods chastening and scourging hurt very bad. They are unpleasant but not to be despised. I have received from the hand of God and truly understand that he loves me enough to correct me that I not perish with those who have a false Jesus. It isn't I who says it happens, it is God himself through his Word. You will have to argue with him.




God is not arbitrary in deciding what punishment he doles out to correct.



This is a veiled accusation of heresy. You are witness to what I believe. You will be a witness in my favor at the judgment seat of Christ as you explain how I tried to make you believe that what I have said is true. I will have many witnesses who hate what I say to verify that I have spoken as such, having confessed that God the Father is God and Jesus Christ his Son is Lord over all. That God judges his people for their own good by using all means at his disposal including giving them over to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that their soul may be saved.



The error comes in by thinking that God is the one who actually does the acts of chastening and scourging that his children receive. This is the crux of the argument that we have been discussing. God is sovereign over all and in control. He bares the responsibility for rightfully judging people then allowing Satan to inflict them with all of the diseases and such. God sends his righteous angels to destroy the wicked and unbelieving like the 180,000 in the OT during Hezekiah's rule.



Proven wrong using scripture above.



According to the scripture posted above that would make you a ******* and not a son, if in fact you have never been scourged (whipped) by him.



This heresy is not supported by scripture. God sees us as we are. He who does righteousness is righteous even as Jesus is righteous, but the wrath of God abides on the children of disobedience.





To honor what Jesus did for us, one must emulate him by picking up their cross, dying to themselves and resisting sin unto blood, even unto death if necessary. But as it is written, "But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

People deny that we must be obedient followers of Jesus to have life. This error is heresy and those who do such things shall not enter into the kingdom of God.

I say these things not to condemn you but I warn you. I don't want you just as a witness who explains to God what I was teaching, but as one who ends up with eternal life as well. In your other post you stated that you consider me a brother. This too goes against scripture because if what I am saying is false, it is heresy and those who do such things will not inherit the Kingdom. My brothers and sisters are they that do the will of God my Father who is in heaven. His will is for every child he receives to follow Jesus his Son and glorify him in doing so. If you are in the Jesus paid it all so I don't have to do anything camp, then you are not abiding in the Word of God, nor doing the Will of God which is your sanctification and therefore not a brother of mine.

Consider what I say as Jesus' message is not a popular one.

In Jesus Name,

Gary

A note to any and all who would question the nature of my post. I suggest you read the epistle to Titus which declares the reason for the installation of Bishops in churches due to the heresy present within them. Or Jude who exhorts us to earnestly contend for the faith once delivered to the saints. And finally Paul who spoke to Timothy on heresy and said that he was to study to show himself unto others as one who God himself would approve of and to shun profane babblings of heresy that eat as a cancer and subvert the souls of men, over throwing true faith in God. We are to have compassion on some and others save with fear. I judged this man to be one who has had the opportunity over 37 years of walking with the Lord (his claim) to have had ample benefit from those who have been compassionate with him. If he knows not the fear of the Lord, he will not be saved and God would have all men to come to the knowledge of the truth. We must do what is right in his eyes or else suffer with the unbelievers who's works also deny Christ. We shall all appear before the judgment seat of Christ our Lord. Amen.

Yup You're religious I'm done discussing this

 

[David777]

Dear JiggyFly.

A flawless argument, no assumptions.

Thus, the conclusion is correct.

No divisions are possible, you state what is and has always been.

In unison we give the Glory to Jesus Christ.

 

[jiggyfly]

A flawless argument, no assumptions.

Thus, the conclusion is correct.

No divisions are possible, you state what is and has always been.

In unison we give the Glory to Jesus Christ.

Thanks David

 

[Fraction]

Some of these posts, wow....kind of scary. lol

 

[RJ]

Anyone have any scripture that clearly indicates free will?

Who of us chose to have the curse of Adam's sin? Has anyone chose to be tested? Anyone here choose their natural parents, or the color of their skin? I think not but God did indeed make these choices not according to our will or desire but according to His own will and purpose.

26 And the Holy Spirit helps us in our weakness. For example, we don’t know what God wants us to pray for. But the Holy Spirit prays for us with groanings that cannot be expressed in words.27 And the Father who knows all hearts knows what the Spirit is saying, for the Spirit pleads for us believers in harmony with God’s own will.28 And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them.
Romans 8:26-28 (NLT)

10 This son was our ancestor Isaac. When he married Rebekah, she gave birth to twins. 11 But before they were born, before they had done anything good or bad, she received a message from God. (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes;12 he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.” 13 In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.”
14 Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not!15 For God said to Moses,


“I will show mercy to anyone I choose,

and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”


16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.
Romans 9:10-16 (NLT)

11 Furthermore, because we are united with Christ, we have received an inheritance from God, for he chose us in advance, and he makes everything work out according to his plan.
Eph 1:11 (NLT)

10 God’s purpose in all this was to use the church to display his wisdom in its rich variety to all the unseen rulers and authorities in the heavenly places.11 This was his eternal plan, which he carried out through Christ Jesus our Lord.
Eph 3:10-11 (NLT)

9 For God saved us and called us to live a holy life. He did this, not because we deserved it, but because that was his plan from before the beginning of time—to show us his grace through Christ Jesus.
2 Tim 1:9 (NLT)

God does not owe us anything nor does He have to do anything according to our will, if He did not consider his own Son's will why should He work according to ours. God is not bound by our will as the scriptures I posted clearly indicate but He works all things according to His will and purpose. Now we also know that He does this with love and patience, gently at first but firm if needed because He is a loving Father.

FYI I am not Calvinist nor am I in the Arminian camp I find both to be errant.

There are many verses that specifically state that people have free will to execute their own choices. In the book of Deuteronomy, God Himself tells the people to choose to follow Him to receive His blessings:

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, (Deuteronomy 30:19)
​

Joshua tells the people to choose to serve God or the idols of their neighbors.

"And if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15)
​

Many other Old Testament verses tell us to choose to follow the Lord. Obviously, choice is not possible if everything is predestined.
Besides the verses that tells us directly to make choices, there are hundreds of verses that tell us how we are to live. Obviously, following this advice requires free will and the ability to choose. So, the Bible indicates pretty clearly that we are to make choices. If everything is predestined, then choice is not possible.

 

[jiggyfly]

There are many verses that specifically state that people have free will to execute their own choices. In the book of Deuteronomy, God Himself tells the people to choose to follow Him to receive His blessings:

"I call heaven and earth to witness against you today, that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and the curse. So choose life in order that you may live, you and your descendants, (Deuteronomy 30:19)
​

Joshua tells the people to choose to serve God or the idols of their neighbors.

"And if it is disagreeable in your sight to serve the LORD, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve: whether the gods which your fathers served which were beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD." (Joshua 24:15)
​

Many other Old Testament verses tell us to choose to follow the Lord. Obviously, choice is not possible if everything is predestined.
Besides the verses that tells us directly to make choices, there are hundreds of verses that tell us how we are to live. Obviously, following this advice requires free will and the ability to choose. So, the Bible indicates pretty clearly that we are to make choices. If everything is predestined, then choice is not possible.

Where did I mention that everything is predestined? And yes we make choices everyday but our choices even our bad choices do not prevent God from carrying out His plan and purpose. God is sovereign and as I said before there are many things that God does that effect us where we have no choice or say so in the matter.

 

[Julie1983]

Now come on kids!! Think! If GOD was in control, we would not have free will. HE gave us dominion in the Earth. So..basically its this way. GOD owns the store and HE put us in as managers. That way we call the shots, but he is still watching and teaching us how. ¿entiendes?

The Lord ALLOWS us to have free will, but can intervene and take control of anything He wants at any time.

 

[RJ]

Where did I mention that everything is predestined? And yes we make choices everyday but our choices even our bad choices do not prevent God from carrying out His plan and purpose. God is sovereign and as I said before there are many things that God does that effect us where we have no choice or say so in the matter.

You ask the question of providing scripture that supports fee will, I thought I did that. I never said that "you" mentioned predestination, I just simply mentioned it.

Paul says that we only know in part but, that there will be a time when we will know fully. When tht time arrives for us, I am sure we will fully understands God's plan that fully incorporates predestination with free will.

God is indeed all powerful!

 

[jiggyfly]

You ask the question of providing scripture that supports fee will, I thought I did that. I never said that "you" mentioned predestination, I just simply mentioned it.

Paul says that we only know in part but, that there will be a time when we will know fully. When tht time arrives for us, I am sure we will fully understands God's plan that fully incorporates predestination with free will.

God is indeed all powerful!

Ok sorry I misunderstood your post. I used to be an advocate of "free will" until I understood the full implication of what it entails. Man does not have complete free will when God's purpose is concerned, God's purpose and plan will always prevail.

 

[David777]

Confusing topic.

Definition of free will

Free Will is the ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints.

Definition of choice

Choice is the act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.

Hello RJ, the two verses you quoted used the word "choice".

As you can see from the above definitions, they are different words.

They have different meanings.

I must place emphasis on the "free" in "free will".

JiggyFly is correct in his usage of free will.

If your decision is FREE from constraints then it is FREE WILL.

 

[RJ]

Ok sorry I misunderstood your post. I used to be an advocate of "free will" until I understood the full implication of what it entails. Man does not have complete free will when God's purpose is concerned, God's purpose and plan will always prevail.

I agree but, I just think that free will or choice is part of that plan.

 

[RJ]

Definition of free will

Free Will is the ability of agents to make choices free from certain kinds of constraints.

Definition of choice

Choice is the act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities.

Hello RJ, the two verses you quoted used the word "choice".

As you can see from the above definitions, they are different words.

They have different meanings.

I must place emphasis on the "free" in "free will".

JiggyFly is correct in his usage of free will.

If your decision is FREE from constraints then it is FREE WILL.

Hmmm!...Is that God's definition?

Then free will is the ability for agents is to choose the act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilies?

 

[David777]

Very good question.

An excellent question RJ, "Is that God's definition?".

Firstly, the reason the dictionary provides a definition is
because it is in common usage.

Therefore, if you use a word, then it is generally understood
that it is the common usage definition you are referring too.

Now, should you apply another definition or qualify the word,
you should state the meaning that you intend, so your audience
will understand.

I think the answer to your question is, if God gives you a free will
choice then that is what you have. But, you would need to provide the scriptural support for this. I checked the NKJV and "choice" is
the word used 100's of times.

As JiggyFly stated, where predestination is present, on the surface it appears, rightly so, that free will is absent.

You can speak in christianese if you wish RJ.

 

[David777]

Further RJ.

I do experience difficulty on TJ because individuals
do not qualify what they mean.

For example, i do not know which form of Calvinism is
being used when predestination is stretched beyond
that which I understand.

If they could precede their statements with the category
of Calvinism or should I say determinism, that they adhere to.
It would cause less difficulty.

They could be a classical calvinist or say a neo calvinist.

I think there are twelve(?) such categories for Calvinism alone.

It would make the posts easier to decipher.

 

[SpiritLedEd]

Where did I mention that everything is predestined? And yes we make choices everyday but our choices even our bad choices do not prevent God from carrying out His plan and purpose. God is sovereign and as I said before there are many things that God does that effect us where we have no choice or say so in the matter.

"Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails."
(Prv 19:21)

SLE

 

[eddieb]

God is in control:
proverbs 21:1
The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will

and we do have free will:
deut 11:26
Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse (27) A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day: (28) And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.

these two scriptures appear to conflict one another. however this isnt the case. God can make us from dirt and his breath and yet he cant control us? cmon. i aint buying it. God gives us free will and he is still in control. The only reason any of us would want to deny ourselves and carry a cross is because the Holy Spirit makes us want to. God dosent fit into a box. His arm isnt shortened, because He gave to us free will. He knows us intimatly. He knows what we are gonna think before we think it. what we are gonna ask before we ask it. therefore i think it is safe to say He would know what we will do before we do it. God is just awesome like that. let you do what you wanna do and still He is on the throne.

however i do agree with the part of the article the church needs a little spring cleaning. and i got part in that too. not just trying to point a finger.

 

[David777]

Hello edieb.

"A little bit of spring cleaning", yes, you have that touch edieb.

You also said,

"because the Holy Spirit makes us want to. God dosent fit into a box."

What an excellent post, you are 100% right.

It is Revelation we are dealing with and this is beyond the realm of men and mice.

I do not miss the stunning conclusion that theology has taught us all.

We are not able to understand with our minds the higher ways of God.

It is not reducible to a level that bone heads can fit into the theological box.

 

[jiggyfly]

"Many are the plans in a man's heart, but it is the Lord's purpose that prevails."
(Prv 19:21)

SLE

Excellent scripture SLE. So many times in my life I found myself missing God and His purpose, it took some time and going through some growing pains to realize that it is not up to me to work God's plan but rather to just submit to His plan and His working in me. A key turning point in my thinking was during a study of Pentecost where we cease from all work.

God works everything according to His will and purpose, to His plan set from the very beginning of creation. He does much of this for us and in us and then some through us, but it is all His work not ours. Any work of our own, however well intended hinders our full submission to Him and His work for, in, and through us.

I was just reading in one of the threads here about making demands and how babies make demands on their parents and it is very true. But babies don't know any better, their babies, they need to grow, but once they have grown some and still make demands they need to be disciplined and corrected if they continue then it becomes very obvious to everyone that the child is rebellious, spoiled and selfish. Make no mistake, God is a perfect Father and knows exactly how to deal with demanding, rebellious, self-centered children, thankfully He is loving and gentle but firm when necessary and not one will go without having discipline. This is part of His plan, not only to rescue us back to Himself, but to help us grow up and become mature and fully submitted to Him, He will always be our Father and we His sons and daughters.

Is God really in control, just look around, notice what man is capable of and it should become very evident that indeed God is very much in control holding all existence together through His Son, Jesus.

Maybe in another post I can respond to "man's dominion of the earth".