Is faith enough?

[Enix2000]

I’m sure this question has been asked before. But despite my research I’ve found myself stuck somewhere. Is faith in Jesus Christ enough for salvation?
im familiar with the many verses that state we are saved by faith alone.
but I’ve recently had family members challenge my opinion on that.
they are coming from the idea that faith without works is dead. So we are saved by faith but if that faith is genuine then it has no choice but to change you. In other words it will produce evidence that it exists.
at face value I have no issues with this.
but the more I think about it the more questions I have.
how much evidence is required?
how long do you have to produce more evidence?
what happens if you struggle with a particular sin?
I guess what I’m asking is......... is salvation really free? Because if believe, and acceptance is all that is required then that would be a free gift.
If however, a certain level/amount of repentance or relationship is required to make salvation real. Then the free gift has conditions on it.
How much evidence is required? Is it different for each person?
what happens if a particular sin is never conquered or fully repented for?
I apologize if my question comes across as ignorant.
Thanks for your time.

 

[Dave M]

I apologize if my question comes across as ignorant.

NO need for that, they are good questions.

So we are saved by faith but if that faith is genuine then it has no choice but to change you. In other words it will produce evidence that it exists.

for me I think this is spot on, we have John saying we are new creatures, the old has passed away, Jesus says we must be born again.

they are coming from the idea that faith without works is dead.

they did not come up with this its straight from scripture, so it is true

how much evidence is required?
how long do you have to produce more evidence?
what happens if you struggle with a particular sin?

these questions are comming from a flesh that likes sins, I say that respectfully and say it that we all have been there. If you are struggling in sin, fast make it your number one priorty to rid you yourself of this sin


. How much time are you spending in the word. there are sins that if you practice them all your life the bible says you are not going to heaven, the Good news is God can free you from the desire to sin he can and will take away that sin from your life, but you have responsibilty to seek him with all your heart by studying the word every day, praying, fasting, worshiping, all these things help you get stronger in Christ.

these are some of the sins the bible list that if you never conquer says you will not enter heaven

1 sex outside of marriage
2. drunkness
3. idoltry

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[B-A-C]

im familiar with the many verses that state we are saved by faith alone.

In all seriousness, can you show me a single verse in the Bible that has both "faith" and "alone" in it?

I do know of one verse.

Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Both "faith" and "alone" are in this verse.

Most of the last half of James 2 deals with this.

Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

If however, a certain level/amount of repentance or relationship is required to make salvation real. Then the free gift has conditions on it.

Welcome to the subject that has had more debates than any other here on TalkJesus. It has been at time a somewhat "passionate" discussion. Heated from time to time.

I personally divide this into two parts. The free gift to "get" saved initially has no requirements, other than faith and grace.
But after you have been saved for a period of time, you need to start living differently, acting differently.
Most on here would say you don't have to be perfect, but you have to strive towards perfection. Php 3:12-14;

You mention 1Cor 6:9-10; I would add Gal 5:19-21; in as well. .. what "not" to do, to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Depending on how you read the parables of the talents, the fruitless tree, and the sheep and goats... works is not only allowed,
but required.

Now what tends to happen in these discussions, is we sometimes mix works with obedience to God. Some think that "not sinning"
is a work.

What can be a little confusing... some say if you are really saved "you won't even want to sin, God will take this desire away from you"
(I would be interested to scripture that says God takes away our desire to sin)
They say you aren't saved by works.. this desire happens naturally. But then if you mention obedience to God.. they say "that's a work".

 

[Enix2000]

NO need for that, they are good questions.



for me I think this is spot on, we have John saying we are new creatures, the old has passed away, Jesus says we must be born again.



they did not come up with this its straight from scripture, so it is true



these questions are comming from a flesh that likes sins, I say that respectfully and say it that we all have been there. If you are struggling in sin, fast make it your number one priorty to rid you yourself of this sin


. How much time are you spending in the word. there are sins that if you practice them all your life the bible says you are not going to heaven, the Good news is God can free you from the desire to sin he can and will take away that sin from your life, but you have responsibilty to seek him with all your heart by studying the word every day, praying, fasting, worshiping, all these things help you get stronger in Christ.

these are some of the sins the bible list that if you never conquer says you will not enter heaven

1 sex outside of marriage
2. drunkness
3. idoltry

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Thank you for your reply.
I don’t believe I disagree with anything you wrote.
I know it sounds like I’m trying to figure out what you can get away with before your salvation is in jeopardy. But honestly I’m trying to figure out the line in the sand.
salvation can not be different for every person can it? I was taught as a kid once saved always saved. But if that’s not the case then when exactly is a sinner saved? And how exactly would you know if your mature enough in your journey that your salvation is secured?
My comment about sin that is not conquered comes from working with addicts. I’ve seen a lot of people beat their addiction. Other did not beat it this side of heaven. Other addicts relapse. How does salvation apply to addicts? Or Christians who struggle heavily with a particular sin?
im also struggling with the idea that evidence is required at all.
because then, at least in a small part, your salvation is dependent on you. Not that you can accomplish it without God but he’s not doing it for you either. So works are required then, right?
I can’t stress how humble and respectful I’m trying to be here. I don’t know the answers so I’m assuming I’m wrong going into this.

 

[B-A-C]

how much evidence is required?
how long do you have to produce more evidence?
what happens if you struggle with a particular sin?

You named this thread "is faith enough". But you also ask these questions, so I hope I'm not getting away from the purpose of this thread if I go this direction for now.

I will start with the second question above, it might be the easiest. Having said that... I don't know the answer.
In Luke 13:7; Jesus gave this tree 3 years, and then another year (wait until next year). So 4 years total, to start
bearing some fruit. Now I don't think I'm ready to say "Four years, that's the rule, it's written in stone!"
In fact I think it's different for different people. Maybe longer for some, maybe shorter for some... but at some point
we need to... ( Matt 3:8; )

If we move to the first question, how much evidence? I saw a bumper sticker once, If someone accused you of being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you? To me, this answer doesn't come from us. It comes from those around us, those who know us well. Imagine two men. Let's say their names are Judas and Peter. One of them steals from the treasury, lies to Jesus, eventually betrays Jesus. Before He was betrayed, Jesus said one of you is a devil, He said not all of you are clean. Judas's lifestyle and actions betrayed him.
Supposedly he was a follower of Jesus... but was he? I wonder if you asked the other people that really knew Judas, was he a godly man?
They would know. Certainly Jesus knew.

The other one denies Jesus, three times even. He wasn't perfect. But he walked on water, healed the sick, proclaimed the gospel,
and was used to give the Holy Spirit to a Gentile family. I wonder if you asked the people around Peter, was he a godly man?
They would know. Certainly Jesus knew.

 

[Hekuran]

A lot of teaching about salvation has been distorted by the perceived need to give it a sales pitch - making following Jesus sound as compelling as possible. This means the 'free gift' element is over emphasised.

To get a better balance, one remedy is to cut through all the noise and simply spend some time reading the gospels. Choose one and read it beginning to end without a break.

What do you notice about Jesus, who did he think he was, and how did he describe his purpose?

You might have to work to get your answers, but if you make the investment, you'll get the reward of confidence in what the gospel actually says.

 

[Enix2000]

Thank you so much for the replies.
you guys are helping a lot.

 

[Dave M]

I here all the time salvation is easy all you have to is beleive. Yet Jesus says the way is hard the gate is narrow and FEW find it. If we are not intentional on seeking the kingdom I dont see how we can find it, if its hard tto find to begin with and FEW find it.

Other addicts relapse. How does salvation apply to addicts?

I was a addict once upon a time, I can tell you since being born again I have no desire to go back to that life style I have no desire to ever try to dabble in drugs again. I got born again the old me is now dead ,,I have new being and that is a desire to please God ,,I am a new creation. However if we do sin and stumble, if we are saved I beleive the Holly spirit will bring the weight of the world on our shoulders and lead us to repentance. Now if we are not saved maybe we just quit using drugs, in order to get out life back togeather when people like this quit they are still slaves of the drug and still addicted becuase they are using there own self discpline to quit, instead of relying on Jesus,, so every waken moment they are struggling not to use and eventually fall back into using and they may feel guilt for spending the money or something but there is no real repentance their is no Holly Spirit convicting them of sin.

 

[Curtis]

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,
Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

No one is saved by faith but by "grace" "through" "faith" The reason why no one is saved by faith is because faith has works connected to it. No one is saved by works.

The only way anyone can gain access to "grace" by which people are saved is through faith.

Rom 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Anyone can have "works" without faith, but no one can have "faith" without works.

 

[Dave M]

(I would be interested to scripture that says God takes away our desire to sin)

you know I have said God has taken my desire to do certain sins away completly, yet other sins there is still a desire BUT Live in a intentional way to curb that desire and not give into it, then the desire does away. And you got me thinking, scripture may not say in those exact words. But it does say we will be changed, it does say we will be born again. it does say to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh. I do think our desires get changed, our desire to please our heavenly father is greater then our desire to please our flesh.

Walking in the flesh to me, seems to mean to desire things of the flesh and the bible is pretty clear about what things of the flesh are .
Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

then we have the opposite of that and that is the fruit of the spirit
Galatians 5:22-24
But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

I can say the desire to commit sin has changed to a desire to please God, and I think that comes from being born again.

 

[Curtis]

I don't think the thief on the cross next to Jesus had any time to do good works before his death. Jesus assured him he would be in paradise with him that day. (luke 23:43)

 

[Curtis]

1Jn 3:9 No one born (begotten) of God [deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] practices sin, for God's nature abides in him [His principle of life, the divine *****, remains permanently within him]; and he cannot practice sinning because he is born (begotten) of God. (AMP)

 

[Dave M]

My comment about sin that is not conquered comes from working with addicts.

I thought about you while listening to this today

 

[PloughBoy]

oh

 

[KittyLinda]

I noticed how many cults may differ from each other, but all of them will say you need works for salvation. If we need works, then Christ died needlessly. (Gal. 2:21)

But to him who does NOT work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness (NKJV Rom. 4:5)

The NIV: justified by faith apart from the works of the law. (Romans 3:28–30)

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. (NKJV Galatians 2:16)

 

[KittyLinda]

I guess what I’m asking is......... is salvation really free? Because if believe, and acceptance is all that is required then that would be a free gift.
If however, a certain level/amount of repentance or relationship is required to make salvation real. Then the free gift has conditions on it.

being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus (NKV Rom. 3:24)

 

[Sosthenes]

In all seriousness, can you show me a single verse in the Bible that has both "faith" and "alone" in it?

I do know of one verse.

Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Both "faith" and "alone" are in this verse.

Most of the last half of James 2 deals with this.

Jas 2:20; But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?



Welcome to the subject that has had more debates than any other here on TalkJesus. It has been at time a somewhat "passionate" discussion. Heated from time to time.

I personally divide this into two parts. The free gift to "get" saved initially has no requirements, other than faith and grace.
But after you have been saved for a period of time, you need to start living differently, acting differently.
Most on here would say you don't have to be perfect, but you have to strive towards perfection. Php 3:12-14;

You mention 1Cor 6:9-10; I would add Gal 5:19-21; in as well. .. what "not" to do, to enter the kingdom of Heaven.

Depending on how you read the parables of the talents, the fruitless tree, and the sheep and goats... works is not only allowed,
but required.

Now what tends to happen in these discussions, is we sometimes mix works with obedience to God. Some think that "not sinning"
is a work.

What can be a little confusing... some say if you are really saved "you won't even want to sin, God will take this desire away from you"
(I would be interested to scripture that says God takes away our desire to sin)
They say you aren't saved by works.. this desire happens naturally. But then if you mention obedience to God.. they say "that's a work".

Theology[edit]
Luther added the word "alone" (allein in German) to Romans 3:28 controversially so that it read: "So now we hold, that man is justified without the help of the works of the law, alone through faith"[11] The word "alone" does not appear in the Greek texts,[12] but Luther defended his translation by maintaining that the adverb "alone" was required both by idiomatic German and the apostle Paul's intended meaning,[13] and that sola was used in theological tradition before him.

Apologist James Swan lists numerous Catholic sources that also translated Romans 3:28 with the word "alone," or testified to others doing so before Luther.[14] A Bible commentary published in 1864 reports that

Catholic translators before the time of Luther had given the same translation. So in the Nuremberg Bible, 1483, "Nur durch den glauben." And the Italian Bibles of Geneva, 1476, and of Venice, 1538, per sola fede. The Fathers also often use the expression, "man is justified by faith alone;" [15]

-Wikipedia

If you are saved by faith and not by works (Ephesians 2:8-9) then the word "alone" is ok because works is not there.

Lets argue the other way and say works are needed:

John 6:29 ¶ Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Believe would be a work and by believing, we are saved by God's work.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

You would be basically denying what God does without your works and that is denying God. You can't see the wind but I can see the effects of the wind and babes in Christ do not work.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. -James 2

James is talking about showing your faith before men.

James acknowledges that Abraham believed God and it was accounted to Him for righteousness. He is not arguing for works to make someone a Christian. Did Abraham do any works before he believed God for righteousness? No.

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: -James 2