I second that.:shade:
"Institutionalized"
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I second that.:shade:
Hekuran
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Don't despise other forms of church
I am surprised that there is so much criticism of liturgical services here, and I question whether it is well judged.
Many more traditional churches begin their main service with these words. I grew up with them, and I still find this introduction helpful in settling my mind and focus at the beginning of the service. Part of its power is that it is familiar and shared by Christians all around the world.
There are weaknesses and strengths in all kinds of services. The older liturgical services draw on a long and rich tradition, and having been tested by time and use for generations tend to be deeper and more rounded in their theology. However, liturgies can be restrictive, monotonous and ultimately sterile.
Open and flexible forms of gatherings are usually more vibrant, are more often receptive to the movement of the Holy Spirit, and to the particular needs and situation of the congregation. They are also much more open to being dominated by strong personalities, their particular theological viewpoints and preferences.
I know of churches that have no written liturgy or tradition, but have a very strong unwritten tradition.
Institutions keep us safe, they preserve the knowledge and gains of earlier generations. Without them every generation would have to learn everything for itself from the very beginning.
If we want what we have discovered in walk with God to be passed on to the next generation, then it is likely that, in some way or other, we need to set up an institution to do it.
We have 2000 years of church history behind us now, and we have not settled upon one way of meeting and worshiping together. My inclination would be to learn from the very best of all traditions.
I have belonged to a non-liturgical congregation within a traditional denomination for the past 12 years. In recent years I have missed the richness of the liturgies that I grew up with (to my own surprise). So now I also attend a very formal lunchtime service near to my work.
I am surprised that there is so much criticism of liturgical services here, and I question whether it is well judged.
We have come together in the name of Christ
to offer our praise and thanksgiving,
to hear and receive God's holy word,
to pray for the needs of the world,
and to seek the forgiveness of our sins,
that by the power of the Holy Spirit
we may give ourselves to the service of God.
to offer our praise and thanksgiving,
to hear and receive God's holy word,
to pray for the needs of the world,
and to seek the forgiveness of our sins,
that by the power of the Holy Spirit
we may give ourselves to the service of God.
Many more traditional churches begin their main service with these words. I grew up with them, and I still find this introduction helpful in settling my mind and focus at the beginning of the service. Part of its power is that it is familiar and shared by Christians all around the world.
There are weaknesses and strengths in all kinds of services. The older liturgical services draw on a long and rich tradition, and having been tested by time and use for generations tend to be deeper and more rounded in their theology. However, liturgies can be restrictive, monotonous and ultimately sterile.
Open and flexible forms of gatherings are usually more vibrant, are more often receptive to the movement of the Holy Spirit, and to the particular needs and situation of the congregation. They are also much more open to being dominated by strong personalities, their particular theological viewpoints and preferences.
I know of churches that have no written liturgy or tradition, but have a very strong unwritten tradition.
Institutions keep us safe, they preserve the knowledge and gains of earlier generations. Without them every generation would have to learn everything for itself from the very beginning.
If we want what we have discovered in walk with God to be passed on to the next generation, then it is likely that, in some way or other, we need to set up an institution to do it.
We have 2000 years of church history behind us now, and we have not settled upon one way of meeting and worshiping together. My inclination would be to learn from the very best of all traditions.
I have belonged to a non-liturgical congregation within a traditional denomination for the past 12 years. In recent years I have missed the richness of the liturgies that I grew up with (to my own surprise). So now I also attend a very formal lunchtime service near to my work.
Tis true and this is what religious institutions do.
His_will_i_am
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Not necessarily, but this is often the case. On the other hand, those assemblies which are more tightly controlled by a person or small group of people are always dominated in this sort of fashion.
Actually what institutions do is create the illusion of safety, and this illusion is often used as a control mechanism.
Again, not necessarily, especially in a spiritual context. God is more than able to teach His people what they need to do apart from any institution.
Which is?
Originally Posted by Hekuran
If we want what we have discovered in walk with God to be passed on to the next generation, then it is likely that, in some way or other, we need to set up an institution to do it.
I disagree.
Greatness4life
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Do you what the Apostle to Gentile said? Paul said and I quote <b>"God's work is often fragile. Churches- the assemblies-are fragile, or so it appears. For some reason, 'men' do not wish to trust what God has done in the hearts of His redeemed; therefor they build 'walls of protection' around the Lord's people. No, that is not exactly correct. Such men build those 'walls' of warnings and fears in order to protect their work. The motivation to preserve one's work is a rotten thing, and it cannot be justified spiritually. Nor will the work of such men stand"
And he Paul prayed like this "Come, oh fire sent by the permission of God, fall upon the work that comes from my hand. Come and destroy everything that can be destroyed. When that fire comes, it is my determination you will find nothing but gold, which is Christ; and sliver, which is Christ; and costly stones, which are also Christ"</b>
This is a food for thought or should it be put this way thought for food for everyone that love to institutionalize the body of Christ either in a house gathering or in various building that is called denominations! Religious is as deadly as poison of serpent.
And he Paul prayed like this "Come, oh fire sent by the permission of God, fall upon the work that comes from my hand. Come and destroy everything that can be destroyed. When that fire comes, it is my determination you will find nothing but gold, which is Christ; and sliver, which is Christ; and costly stones, which are also Christ"</b>
This is a food for thought or should it be put this way thought for food for everyone that love to institutionalize the body of Christ either in a house gathering or in various building that is called denominations! Religious is as deadly as poison of serpent.
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Greatness4life
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I believed this is food for thought or should it be said "thought for food". I wonder which organized institution of religion that Paul, Peter belonged to? What of Luke, John and Silas, what was the name of their denomination? Have you ever consider the Ethiopian man that Philip preached to and was transported by Holy-Spirit immediately after baptismed the man? What institutionalised religion did he belonged to?<b> A little leaven, leaventh the whole lumps</b>. The test of every true Christianity is to abandon the people that called themselves children of God to God alone without institutionalizing them. Don't ever think that Paul ever sat over any ecclesia that God build through him rather, they were left, abandoned by Paul for he only spent a little time with them (the highest time was 3months) and He never institutionalized them rather, He gave them Christ nothing more or less! Philipian Church was left abandoned immediately she was planted in the house of sister Lydia to be governed only by Holy-Spirit.
There is more for us to learn but our learning start from going back to the begining! God help us.
There is more for us to learn but our learning start from going back to the begining! God help us.
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Boanerges
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It is always sad to me when the toe wants to cut of the foot, the foot wants to cut of the hand and the hand wants to gouge out the eye. No wonder the body is such a mess as in it's immaturity is constantly beats itself up and each part tries to eliminate the others.
Paraphrases are not true representations of the original manuscripts and often contain a lot of error, opinion and supposition.. So please for the sake of clarity when quote Paul as proof text then do it in a Bible that is accurate or include both. That Paraphrase has little to do with an accurate translation. Can you give chapter and verse so that I can find that "data" in an actual translation?
This is the government God Himself gave the church:
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Jesus went to the Synagogue which was under the control of a priest. Paul, Peter and others by the leading of the Holy Spirit gave birth to the church and these grew into larger local churches. They did not seem afraid of walls on their meeting places. God gave the fivefold ministries as the proper form of church government. He also said nothing about it being wrong for larger groups of people getting together, forming local bodies but if you can provide a scriptural reference that I missed I would be glad to review it.
Paraphrases are not true representations of the original manuscripts and often contain a lot of error, opinion and supposition.. So please for the sake of clarity when quote Paul as proof text then do it in a Bible that is accurate or include both. That Paraphrase has little to do with an accurate translation. Can you give chapter and verse so that I can find that "data" in an actual translation?
Abandoned? They had the Holy Spirit. Like many local bodies today small groups of believers started out in houses but then graduated into larger facilities as they grew.
This is the government God Himself gave the church:
Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;
Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
I fail to see anyone cutting off any part(s) of the body of Christ in any of the posts within this thread. Unless of course you see religious liturgy, religious practice and denomination as a hand or a foot. To my knowledge no one has made the statement that those who participate within the christian religious institution are not part of the body.
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Greatness4life
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Friend, you do not seem to read between line!
Hmmm! Even though i provided you with such things you won't still be able to see it, for you will only see what you wanted to see!
They are all in the Holy book you hold in your hand! But you will only see what you wanted to see.
May be you need to read of Church history and see light from the light!
It seems you forgot to read between the line! Re-read what i posted.
Boanerges
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So you do not have an un-paraphrased version to quote? I guess the actual translations are to accurate to support that view of yours. But anyway, keep trying and perhaps I will see the brightness of the light you are trying to shine. Perhaps if you had some real bible evidence?
Honestly what i see reminds me of this plain old finger pointing religious condemnation of all who are different. It is the same spirit that divides the Baptists from the Methodist from the Pentecostals, from etc, etc, etc. So many seem to think they have it together and the rest of the world would too if they only worship, taught, etc, like them.
Thank God HE is judge of who are His people and not you or I my friend.
Boanerges
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Sadly, that view seems stretch to the point of eliminating most of the body of Christ. Having a Pastor or a church building seems elevated to the point of blasphemy. I have seen way to many young Christians bullied and beat up by folks with a particular theological grudge not to speak out on their behalf.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Rom 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
Rom 14:6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
Rom 14:7 For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself.
Rom 14:8 For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's.
Rom 14:9 For to this end Christ both died, and rose, and revived, that he might be Lord both of the dead and living.
Rom 14:10 But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Rom 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God.
Rom 14:12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
Rom 14:13 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.
Rom 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean.
Then our experiences are quite different because I have witnessed the opposite, in many cases I hear that one must go to "church" and participate in religious liturgy to be right with God. If one is not submitted to a professional clergyman than they are rebellious towards God. :wink:
PS I really like the scriptures you quoted, works well either way.
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Greatness4life
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Did I judge those who has believed on the Lord the same as I am? No, but I condemn the systems that holds my brothers and sisters in bondage. Yea, more, I condemn the men empires to keep the sheep of God inside walls and holes.
Do I speak evil of the Church that Christ my Lord built? Nay, God forbid! But i speak to the condemnation of the replicate of her. I speak judgement to what men has built in comparism of Her.
Oh, we erected our own building, empires and monuments to keep the Lord's sheep. Just like king Jeroboam did and said "it is too much for you to go UP to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee UP out of the land of Egypt" And he set one in Bethel, and the other in Dan. He went ahead and built systems of worships that look like the original pattern which the Lord gave to David His Anointed, He(Jeroboam) ordained priests of the lowest of the people which were not of the sons of Levi. He ordained priests of high places to ministered to him and God's sheep. I hope you know what high places means in our days? Simply compare our theology schools and high places together then matches it with clergy and laity. There you will get the right pictures. 1 King 13v25-33.
What more can i say? To judge means to bring to order every dis-orderliness. To bring to to light what men are building in compare to God's pattern! To open the sepulchres and un-veil the evils, dead-ness and un-cleaniness that man has been covered up with religious!
"For he that is spiritual judgeth ALL things"
I've been in that line before, and I know how that way look liked. Thank God, the father of our Lord Jesus who open my eyes to see, my ears to hear and my heart to understand. Glory to Him, for He has delivered me and He still delivering me from all religious systems and spirit that have enslaved me and He will yet deliver me!
This will He do to all who seek Him and not the systems!
Do I speak evil of the Church that Christ my Lord built? Nay, God forbid! But i speak to the condemnation of the replicate of her. I speak judgement to what men has built in comparism of Her.
Oh, we erected our own building, empires and monuments to keep the Lord's sheep. Just like king Jeroboam did and said "it is too much for you to go UP to Jerusalem: behold thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee UP out of the land of Egypt" And he set one in Bethel, and the other in Dan. He went ahead and built systems of worships that look like the original pattern which the Lord gave to David His Anointed, He(Jeroboam) ordained priests of the lowest of the people which were not of the sons of Levi. He ordained priests of high places to ministered to him and God's sheep. I hope you know what high places means in our days? Simply compare our theology schools and high places together then matches it with clergy and laity. There you will get the right pictures. 1 King 13v25-33.
What more can i say? To judge means to bring to order every dis-orderliness. To bring to to light what men are building in compare to God's pattern! To open the sepulchres and un-veil the evils, dead-ness and un-cleaniness that man has been covered up with religious!
"For he that is spiritual judgeth ALL things"
I've been in that line before, and I know how that way look liked. Thank God, the father of our Lord Jesus who open my eyes to see, my ears to hear and my heart to understand. Glory to Him, for He has delivered me and He still delivering me from all religious systems and spirit that have enslaved me and He will yet deliver me!
This will He do to all who seek Him and not the systems!
Boanerges
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I do understand what you are saying. I have been in churches where they are controlled and manipulated by the Pastor, big money donors or just as bad a board of deacons. I have been in churches where the Holy Spirit was in complete control. I guess my whole point is lumping over a billion souls in million of different environments into one heap and condemning what they do. Since no one has visited even one tenth of one per cent of these different expressions wholesale condemnation is a supposition at best and a flat our assumption/prejudice at worst.
Boanerges
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So according to you God dislikes anyone who meets in a building instead of a house? LOL.
How much are those plane tickets to Bethel?? LOL again!
I am sorry you have had bad experiences. I believe we have all had some of those. I have been in awesome churches, dead religious churches and in others that seem more a crucible than a house of God. I have been in some really nice home groups and I have been in some absolutely terrible ones. Bad doctrine, control, manipulation, etc are no way limited to people who meet in buildings or have a Pastor and neither is that prideful spirit which seems to infect the majority of those who feel that "at least they have it right". The flesh loves to feel good about itself and will get a religious attitude very quickly but it is still the flesh.
Greatness4life
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Above all Lord, i quit debating and argueing. For You oh Lord do not delight in debates, You delight in truth and righteousness. If it's religious system is what You are building for Your people who are my to debate on it and if ecclesia was what was in Your heart before the foundation of the world and She was what you built in time of Apostle and still building today, who are my to also debate on that. For no one can bring his or her sister or brother to see the light You are restoring this day. It takes You alone to do that. So Lord, i do not regret of all my previous post but from henceforth, i quit! I quit from argueing or debating the truth. I can by no means build Your ecclesia either by exalting Her or by pulling religious systems down. Lord, with all sincerity of heart. I joined my brother in faith, Paul, the Apostle by saying "I must build with Christ, i must build with gold, silver and precious stones which You are and I will in no wise debate on this matter again" My attention will no longer be to things that scattereth Your people but to You who build them. Institutionalism will no longer be my attention but how to edify, build, encourage and provoke Your people to love and seek You more and more. And also, do what You alone are doing.
Heavens, you are a witness today, hell hear this and all that constitue religious and her system! I give Up on you for you cannot be heal and I say "to thee o gracious Lord will I build for, and I'll build on not debates and arguements"
I give thanks to You dear Lord for hearing this. Amen.
Heavens, you are a witness today, hell hear this and all that constitue religious and her system! I give Up on you for you cannot be heal and I say "to thee o gracious Lord will I build for, and I'll build on not debates and arguements"
I give thanks to You dear Lord for hearing this. Amen.
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Boanerges
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While I respect your right to your own opinion I do not respect your right to trash other believers. I will agree to disagree with you and your ideas of who can be in the kingdom of God I believe I will leave that in the Lord's hands and stick with His Word revealed by His Spirit.
As far as saving me Christ saved me from sin and gave me knew life. I do not think I need saving from the God ordained governmental structure that He gave us in His Word.
Have a great day and be blessed in Jesus Name,
your brother Larry.
As far as saving me Christ saved me from sin and gave me knew life. I do not think I need saving from the God ordained governmental structure that He gave us in His Word.
Have a great day and be blessed in Jesus Name,
your brother Larry.
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SpiritLedEd
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"The Pharisee stood up and prayed about himself, 'God. I thank you that I am not like other men.....'" (Lk 18:11 NIV).
Greatness, I am issuing an official warning to you for your thinly veiled insults against those who disagree with you.
SLE
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Hi, jiggyfly
For many years I did not attend church because I agreed with your take on the institutionalized churches, and I wanted to be free from some of the negativity I saw in most of them. However, I have recently started regularly attending church and have enjoyed praising the Lord in song, the fellowship, etc.
So are you saying that now that I'm back in church, it could be harming my spiritual growth???
I always felt guilty when I wasn't attending church, like I was disobeying the admonishment in Hebrews 10:25 about assembling together, and I felt that I wasn't being a good Christian by staying at home. (I'm not saying that's why I started going to church again).
So what should I be doing at home if I am not attending church? There are no home churches around my area that I know of, and how do I remember the sabbath day to keep it holy? Does keeping that day holy entail nothing more than not working on it? Or does worshiping Him on that day constitute "remembering the sabbath"?
In summary, if I am not pleasing the Lord by being involved with a "carnal Christian religious institution", am I to leave the church? If so, then what?
Respectfully, in Christ
