LOL, are you assuming that we do not?:shock:
"Institutionalized"
- Thread starter jiggyfly
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LOL, are you assuming that we do not?:shock:
Greatness4life
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well, that was cool. To be sincere and truthful. I don't think you can enough teaching from programmized sunday service system. Though, some fellowship do have bible study at a different day but not sunday, when everything from begining to the end has programmed God into a box.
Greatness4life
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Well, that was cool. To be sincere and truthful. I don't think you can have enough "teaching" (communion with God) from programmized sunday service system. Though, some fellowship do have bible study at a different day but not sunday, when everything from begining to the end has programmed God into a box.:shock:
Boanerges
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No I am not assuming that. I do think it is a little presumptuous for anyone to think they are the cats pajamas and have deeper bible studies than the entire body of Christ. Myself I have been studying for a long time but I consider myself only a novice having barely scratched the surface. No pun intended, I am open to learning and eagerly await the bestowal of this great insight.
May God Himself reveal it to us:
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
Eph 1:18 The eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints,
Eph 1:19 And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power,
Exactly, and must we find God in the middle of religious liturgy? Is God's revelation limited to a religious liturgical gathering? Or is God's revelation limited in a religious liturgical gathering? I opt for the later.
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Boanerges
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It must be the circles I run in then as we do not have "religious liturgy" in our services but indeed the Holy Spirit leads them. Perhaps your comments are not as all inclusive as your experience would have you to believe.
Greatness4life
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lol! Me and jiggyfly attend the same fellowship. We both opted for the later, so is everyone that follow the Holy Spirit.
Boanerges
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Religious pride does not please God my friend.
I remember being a young Christian and attending a church we will call B who looked down on another group of believers I will call A. I visited A later on Later the Lord led me to A having some things to teach me there, they looked down on B. Over the years God has led me more than a few places each having something to contribute to what He had planned for me. I cannot think of any who did not (to one degree or another) hold other believers in disdain. If only they would worship, study, praise or whatever like us; surely they would be doing it God's way. This is reminisiant of the Pharisee who cried "thank God I am not like others" and is a religious spirit seeking to divide the body of Christ.
If we are born again we are brothers in Christ. Jesus said we would be known by our criticism for one another didn't He? Oops, no we are known as His disciples by our love for one another. This is a sign of spiritual maturity when you can love (and maybe even tolerate) others who are different than ourselves yet still part of the body of Christ.
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Greatness4life
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You got me wrong dear friend.. I do not mean to exalt myself nor one fellowship above others, all I did was to pick the Truth from the Facts.
And If by any way what I've posted have affected ones heart, Lord, You know it has never been my desire to hurt anyone though Your Truth always hurts, even when I was enjoying religious systems, You did not spear me from Your Sword before You delivered me. You pierce through my veils and You uncovered the religious spirit in me.
Now, all I did was to speak the Truth and whosoever is hurts, I pray that You heal their hurts and show them the way of life as You have always being showing me time after time.
Jiminy Crickett...ya'll seem to be playing ping pong and I cant see the ball!!
Anything can become an institution...thus all the new organizations such as "Gay Pride" whatever. What the true "Church" is supposed to be is believers in agreement, of one mind, the mind of Christ.
We are supposed to be the Body of Christ, if the Lord is with a Group, at home or in a church building, that is Gods work in some way. If there is a group that the Lord really is not leading, usually it will fail, or the group becomes reprobate. That is why we are to pray and ask God for wisdom and discernment, we are to hide His word in our heart so when something is not according to scripture, we can individually keep our heart right and follow the lead of His Spirit.
I don't know what ping pong ball you were hitting...can we not tell each other what "belief group" we are a part of? Are we hiding it?
Just curious, maybe I missed the whole point.
Regardless, God is good all of the time and to Him be all the Glory, In Jesus name amen!!:sure:
Anything can become an institution...thus all the new organizations such as "Gay Pride" whatever. What the true "Church" is supposed to be is believers in agreement, of one mind, the mind of Christ.
We are supposed to be the Body of Christ, if the Lord is with a Group, at home or in a church building, that is Gods work in some way. If there is a group that the Lord really is not leading, usually it will fail, or the group becomes reprobate. That is why we are to pray and ask God for wisdom and discernment, we are to hide His word in our heart so when something is not according to scripture, we can individually keep our heart right and follow the lead of His Spirit.
I don't know what ping pong ball you were hitting...can we not tell each other what "belief group" we are a part of? Are we hiding it?
Just curious, maybe I missed the whole point.
Regardless, God is good all of the time and to Him be all the Glory, In Jesus name amen!!:sure:
Boanerges
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I understand you consider that to be the truth.Talk to me again in 10, 20 pr 30 years and see of your view is the same.
No one that I am aware of was hurt nor was I trying to be anything but honest. To limit God by saying He cannot freely move because the body of believers is organized just seems like a real stretch of anyone's opinion.
Much love and many blessings on your day,
your brother Larry.
Greatness4life
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I really appreciate your long-suffering and patience in replying to all that has been posted. Once again, by considering what you've posted; You've convicted my heart and I bless God for your life.
Like I say, You are right and I got somethings wrong in my post. I remember being in an organized church though the programs and activities organized God but, God was still be able to move among us. In fact, my journey to knowing God started from Organized Religious.
By that, I believed everyone that have come to know God in the highest degree started from being organized and religious. But God do not want any of His children to end up in Religion. "It is good to start in the Flesh and End up in the Spirit rather than starting in the Spirit and ending up in the Flesh"
I do not condemn my brothers and sisters in organized religious systems but, I CONDEMN THE SYSTEMS THAT IS HOLDING THEM CAPTIVE.
Once again, Thank You Larry for correcting me with Love. May the Lord equip and bless you the more in His name. May He make His way plain before your eyes and lead you in all the way to His Kingdom. Amen.
God Bless..
Boanerges
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Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Again, I am not offended. I do love the church Jesus died for and I do find myself quick to defend that which is precious to Him.
If it is only a religious institute you are in then leave it for a body who walks with the Ling God in a living relationship with the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit through the Son.
But that gives no one license to lump a billion plus people in the same pile because one is offended by the biblical structure given to us by God Himself.
If one spent every day for the rest of their life visiting churches I am quite sure they would not live long enough to visit 1% of them. Is disorganized religion better because they have no building?
I am not seeking to correct you my friend, I have a real love for the church. Those who are born again are that church and I admit it gets me going to see people making blind assumptions based on personal prejudice. Those who are not born again who no place in the kingdom regardless of the institution or house they attend.
No my friend, I need no apology nor do I really need anyone to agree with my position as I have seen the fruit born of some of those blindly criticized churches. I am not a talking about old line religions who do not know God. Not people lost in tradition but but vibrant Holy Spirit led bodies.
The scripture plainly declares that the fivefold ministries are established by God ubuil the church walks in the full stature of Christ. This will not happen (in my opinion) till Jesus Himself returns. One could argue that opinion but one could not argue that the body of Christ has certainly not yet achieved that stature. To disallow that scripture because of personal experience is to miss what God is doing.
That is not condemnation but an encouragement to study the Word of God (in the revelation of the Holy Spirit) and to come into agreement with it's every precept (be renewed in your mind).
In short, if the critics of the Bride would stop tearing her down they might help her to rise to her calling.
Below is a study I posted a while back on the much maligned office of Pastor:
The Lord Himself saw fit to give the church five offices. These were to help it grow and mature and were given to us until the church reaches the fullness of maturity of Christ Himself. Each of these offices have a specific function and are not mentioned in vain and yet they have one common purpose; to lead the flock into maturity in Christ.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
The first of these offices or calling I would like to discuss is the office of Pastor. The word Pastor means Shepherd.
Pastor = Shepard
From the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
G4166
ποιμή?
poimē?n
poy-mane'
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd, pastor.
The specific word Pastor is used once in the New Testament and eight times the Old Testament (specifically referring to those given charge over God’s people) . This again is referring to a shepherd and that term is used seventy-five time throughout the New and Old Testaments.
The chief Shepperd
From the Vines Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Word:
Shepherd
poimen (G4166) is used (a) in its natural significance, Mat_9:36; Mat_25:32; Mar_6:34; Luk_2:8, Luk_2:15, Luk_2:18, Luk_2:20; Joh_10:2, Joh_10:12; (b) metaphorically of Christ, Mat_26:31; Mar_14:27; Joh_10:11, Joh_10:14, Joh_10:16; Heb_13:20; 1Pe_2:25; (c) metaphorically of those who act as pastors in the churches, Eph_4:11. See PASTOR.
1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
So then what is the job of a Pastor (shepherd)?
A pastor leads the flock to good food (the Word of God)
A pastor leads the sheep to fresh water (the Word of God and the Spirit of God)
A pastor protects the sheep. He will fight for them and lead them to safe pasture. His goal is to see them grow healthy and strong.
A pastor is a companion to the flock.
A pastor is known by his sheep and they find comfort in his voice.
This is but one of the five fold . No hand is complete without a ll five .
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Again, I am not offended. I do love the church Jesus died for and I do find myself quick to defend that which is precious to Him.
If it is only a religious institute you are in then leave it for a body who walks with the Ling God in a living relationship with the Father in the power of the Holy Spirit through the Son.
But that gives no one license to lump a billion plus people in the same pile because one is offended by the biblical structure given to us by God Himself.
If one spent every day for the rest of their life visiting churches I am quite sure they would not live long enough to visit 1% of them. Is disorganized religion better because they have no building?
I am not seeking to correct you my friend, I have a real love for the church. Those who are born again are that church and I admit it gets me going to see people making blind assumptions based on personal prejudice. Those who are not born again who no place in the kingdom regardless of the institution or house they attend.
No my friend, I need no apology nor do I really need anyone to agree with my position as I have seen the fruit born of some of those blindly criticized churches. I am not a talking about old line religions who do not know God. Not people lost in tradition but but vibrant Holy Spirit led bodies.
The scripture plainly declares that the fivefold ministries are established by God ubuil the church walks in the full stature of Christ. This will not happen (in my opinion) till Jesus Himself returns. One could argue that opinion but one could not argue that the body of Christ has certainly not yet achieved that stature. To disallow that scripture because of personal experience is to miss what God is doing.
That is not condemnation but an encouragement to study the Word of God (in the revelation of the Holy Spirit) and to come into agreement with it's every precept (be renewed in your mind).
In short, if the critics of the Bride would stop tearing her down they might help her to rise to her calling.
Below is a study I posted a while back on the much maligned office of Pastor:
The Lord Himself saw fit to give the church five offices. These were to help it grow and mature and were given to us until the church reaches the fullness of maturity of Christ Himself. Each of these offices have a specific function and are not mentioned in vain and yet they have one common purpose; to lead the flock into maturity in Christ.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
The first of these offices or calling I would like to discuss is the office of Pastor. The word Pastor means Shepherd.
Pastor = Shepard
From the Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
G4166
ποιμή?
poimē?n
poy-mane'
Of uncertain affinity; a shepherd (literally or figuratively): - shepherd, pastor.
The specific word Pastor is used once in the New Testament and eight times the Old Testament (specifically referring to those given charge over God’s people) . This again is referring to a shepherd and that term is used seventy-five time throughout the New and Old Testaments.
The chief Shepperd
From the Vines Complete Expository Dictionary of New Testament Word:
Shepherd
poimen (G4166) is used (a) in its natural significance, Mat_9:36; Mat_25:32; Mar_6:34; Luk_2:8, Luk_2:15, Luk_2:18, Luk_2:20; Joh_10:2, Joh_10:12; (b) metaphorically of Christ, Mat_26:31; Mar_14:27; Joh_10:11, Joh_10:14, Joh_10:16; Heb_13:20; 1Pe_2:25; (c) metaphorically of those who act as pastors in the churches, Eph_4:11. See PASTOR.
1Pe 5:4 And when the chief Shepherd shall appear, ye shall receive a crown of glory that fadeth not away.
1Pe 2:25 For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
So then what is the job of a Pastor (shepherd)?
A pastor leads the flock to good food (the Word of God)
A pastor leads the sheep to fresh water (the Word of God and the Spirit of God)
A pastor protects the sheep. He will fight for them and lead them to safe pasture. His goal is to see them grow healthy and strong.
A pastor is a companion to the flock.
A pastor is known by his sheep and they find comfort in his voice.
This is but one of the five fold . No hand is complete without a ll five .
Greatness4life
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Let me ask you a question. Do you believe that the Lord is restoring those offices back to us? And if you believe, do you think it will have its full manifestation in the organized church of our days?
In addition, I believed this generation have seen much of the offices of Pastors, Evangelists and a level of Teachers but the Prophetic and Apostolic Offices has not yet have their stay in this Generation. And without them the Body of Christ cannot come to full Maturity.
But one thing is true which I'm also persuaded of by the Spirit of God in my spirit that the combination of those five offices can only come to full manifestation NOT in organized religious system of our day but in "EKKLESIAH".
Do you believed this? If you don't believed it now, I hope one day the Lord will bring you to the understanding of this. I have more to say, but there is no need to beating around the bush, and my spirit constrained me from going further.
God Bless.
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coachforChrist
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God told us all through James The Brother of Jesus, in James 1:27,
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
SpiritLedEd
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This quote reminds me of how I thought before I came to Christ: "Be reasonable, do it my way!"
SLE
DING! I was about to post something along these same lines.
Boanerges
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Just my thoughts:
Examine your heart and try to see past your preconceived ideas and prejudice against others in the body of Christ.
I believe that the fivefold is certainly active today although not to the extent that it should be. It entirely depends on which circles you walk in. I have been in a church where I was literally told "we don't wan't any of that Holy Spirit stuff in here. All we want coming out of your mouth is Jesus". Can you imagine trying to separate Jesus from the Holy Spirit? But I have been in other places where the glory of God manifests so greatly that one cannot hardly stand. It is breathtaking, awesome and beautiful all at once.
Ever met a Prophet? I have. I met a good brother some 15 years ago who had such a gift. That night we traveled about a hundred miles to go to this meeting and some folks we know decided to follow. These folks he had never met got a word form God that night from this prophet. He told them details about their lives that no one their knew and went into great specificity about their past, present and future. This is sort of what is called "reading your mail".
I believe our Pastor to carry the mantle of Apostle. He has literately preached the gospel and started churches in the four corners of the world. I have seen and heard Pastors from around the world come to our little church, point at the podium and declare "this is where revival started in my church" as they had been touched by God and brought revival back to their own flocks. Close to a million people have come to Christ through local and national outreaches. He ministers to hundreds of Pastors as well as their flocks. Signs and wonders accompany and the supernatural is the natural.
So while do believe that God's Word is true when it declares the fivefold to be here with us till we walk in the fullness of the stature of Christ I do not believe it is in use everywhere. But find a body of believers who dares to believe God's Word in it's entirety and you will find the power of God manifest.
Does that exclude a group of believers because they operate in from than you? As born again believers they are just as much a part pf the church (ekklēsia) as you or anyone else.I know these things to be true and bear witness to them as I have seen all these things already in operation.
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Very good response Greatness4life, express your revelation and instruct those who grasp it and encourage and pray for those who don't. Don't be offended by the petty accusations of pride and boastfulness. :wink:
Boanerges
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LOL! Thta was great!
If everyone was just like me think of how great things would be! Just think of the wisdom, the knowledge and the correct life they would live if they all did it my way!
Disclaimer- that was entirely tongue in cheek humor. Folks need to look to the beam in their own eyes more and the speck in their brothers less.
