If the OT is trumped by the NT why then...

[LordKnows]

Why do so many quote the OT with things such as drinking, eating this, not that & other things like the woman stays home while the man works?

From my understanding since God came down from his throne & lived with us, died for us for our salvation IF we believe he did that what part of the OT should be followed? I read & hear so many people quoting the OT to somewhat slink by the NT requirements you could say.

Please correct me if I've misunderstood something or all.

Thank you all!!

 

[Bendito]

Why do so many quote the OT with things such as drinking, eating this, not that & other things like the woman stays home while the man works?

From my understanding since God came down from his throne & lived with us, died for us for our salvation IF we believe he did that what part of the OT should be followed? I read & hear so many people quoting the OT to somewhat slink by the NT requirements you could say.

Please correct me if I've misunderstood something or all.

Thank you all!!

Good question!! What is the main thrust of the entire bible? Love. Right?

So as to your question 'What part of the OT should we be following'? Its right here....
Matthew 22:37-40 (KJV)
37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

All of the Old Covenant law is hinged on these two commandments...All of the teachings of the Old Covenant prophets is based on these two commandments..

 

[B-A-C]

"trumped" LOL. The word of the times.

My takes is all of the old testament still applies, unless it is specifically "superceded" (trumped) in the new testament.
For example... in the sermon on the mount.
Jesus says the old testament said don't murder. But in the new testament even hating someone is the same as murder.
Jesus says the old testament says don't commit adultery. But in the new testament, even looking at someone with lust is the same as adultery.

In the old testament, hate your enemies. In the new testament pray for those who persecute you.
Homosexuality is mentioned several times in both the old and new testaments.

In the old testament, priests sacrificed animals for payment of sin. Jews put blood over their doors during passover.
In the new testament we have a lamb that was sacrificed "once for all" sins. No more priests or sacrifices needed.

In the old testament, an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth,
but in the new testament, if someone slaps your cheek, offer them the other cheek.

In the old testament, adulterous women were stoned. (it seems a chance for repentance wasn't always given)
But in the new testament, Jesus says I don't condemn you, but... go and "sin no more".

@Bendito is right, much of the old testament laws... really lead to how to love.
Matt 5:17;

Rom 13:9; For this, "YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET," and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Rom 13:10; Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

Basically if you're obeying the commandments.. you are loving your neighbor.

Mat 19:17 And He said to him, "Why are you asking Me about what is good? There is only One who is good; but if you wish to enter into eternal life, keep the commandments."

 

[Beameup]

I was confused over this issue for over 45 years, until one day I read where Paul states that he is the Apostle to the Gentiles.
I thought, well I should be find one or two same statements, and when I looked I found two more saying the same thing.
From that point in 2010, I spent reading and rereading Paul's Epistles and took only that information as appropriate for me as a Gentile.
All confusion soon departed.
Romans 11:13
1 Timothy 2:7
2 Timothy 1:11

 

[amadeus2]

God has never changed and will never change. What was an abomination to Him in the OT is an abomination to Him now. Our problem when looking at apparent differences between the OT versus the NT is likely that we do not understand all of God's message. It does all fit together even as His people in the end of the matter will all fit together perfectly [Eph 4:15-16]. The following prophecy explains it all if we are able to understand it:

"Moreover the light of the moon shall be as the light of the sun, and the light of the sun shall be sevenfold, as the light of seven days, in the day that the LORD bindeth up the breach of his people, and healeth the stroke of their wound." Isaiah 30:26

And the following verse explains how we may come to understand:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

 

[rag4aCrown]

Many are called, but few are chosen.
Many, the majority, are still bound by the law because they have never received His baptism. Yes man dunked our head under water, most people never persue God any further than that; so they never receive His baptism. They are bound to the law; if a person come to steal my stuff I will shoot them. How many times have you heard a Christian say this? I have plenty. That is NOT the Way, it is our way. Lord have mercy upon us ALL. Amen

 

[B-A-C]

I was confused over this issue for over 45 years, until one day I read where Paul states that he is the Apostle to the Gentiles.
I thought, well I should be find one or two same statements, and when I looked I found two more saying the same thing.
From that point in 2010, I spent reading and rereading Paul's Epistles and took only that information as appropriate for me as a Gentile.

So anything not written by Paul doesn't apply? Including the teachings of Jesus?

Jesus did preach to Gentiles as well.

Matt 15:21; Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon.

Matt 15:22; And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, "Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed."

Mark 7:25; But after hearing of Him, a woman whose little daughter had an unclean spirit immediately came and fell at His feet.
Mark 7:26; Now the woman was a Gentile, of the Syrophoenician race. And she kept asking Him to cast the demon out of her daughter.

John 4:3; He left Judea and went away again into Galilee.
John 4:4; And He had to pass through Samaria.
John 4:5; So He *came to a city of Samaria called Sychar, near the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph;
John 4:7; There *came a woman of Samaria to draw water. Jesus *said to her, "Give Me a drink."
John 4:8; For His disciples had gone away into the city to buy food.

Luke 10:31; "And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.
Luke 10:32; "Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.
Luke 10:33; "But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion,

Luke 17:14; When He saw them, He said to them, "Go and show yourselves to the priests." And as they were going, they were cleansed.
Luke 17:15; Now one of them, when he saw that he had been healed, turned back, glorifying God with a loud voice,
Luke 17:16; and he fell on his face at His feet, giving thanks to Him. And he was a Samaritan.
Luke 17:17; Then Jesus answered and said, "Were there not ten cleansed? But the nine—where are they?
Luke 17:18; "Was no one found who returned to give glory to God, except this foreigner?"
Luke 17:19; And He said to him, "Stand up and go; your faith has made you well."

there are a couple more.

 

[Dave M]

Great thread, I having been wondering about this, and much light has been shed !!! thanks

 

[Bendito]

I was confused over this issue for over 45 years, until one day I read where Paul states that he is the Apostle to the Gentiles.
I thought, well I should be find one or two same statements, and when I looked I found two more saying the same thing.
From that point in 2010, I spent reading and rereading Paul's Epistles and took only that information as appropriate for me as a Gentile.
All confusion soon departed.
Romans 11:13
1 Timothy 2:7
2 Timothy 1:11

You're a gentile? Really? Well I just want to let you know that when you were born again you died...You were reborn into the family of God...A Jew by adoption if you will....
Ephesians 2:12-16 (CJB)
12 at that time had no Messiah. You were estranged from the national life of Isra’el. You were foreigners to the covenants embodying God’s promise. You were in this world without hope and without God.

13 But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah’s blood. 14 For he himself is our shalom — he has made us both one and has broken down the m’chitzah which divided us 15 by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the Torah, with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. He did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups a single new humanity and thus make shalom, 16 and in order to reconcile to God both in a single body by being executed on a stake as a criminal and thus in himself killing that enmity.
That's the wonderful thing about the 'one new man' is that you are no longer an outsider (gentile) but now you are the elite...The children of the Most High God..The seed of Abraham...The heirs of the promise...Equals with our brother Jesus in the covenant..that is to say...equal in rights, equal in authority, equal in inheritance...

 

[Born Again 2004]

All of the Old Testament....based primarily on the Old Law which is holy, righteous and blameless. As we know, in the NT, Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it! He is our final and last priest, not that the old law, like the 10 commandments, was not perfect, the problem was that man was not and Jesus took care of that problem with his death, burial and resurrection!....salvation , not by our works, but God's grace.
Since God does not change, what are we to do?...are we to do away with any portion of the law to satisfy our current needs?...the NT says, certainly not!
We live under the NT and not the Old. We live under grace and not the law but, without the law, we would have had no clue what sin was....praise God for the law!
Don't do what is not profitable or what may lead to sin, for in the NT, Jesus said all things are permissible but not everything is profitable. Love the law but stay focused not on a particular precept but knowing Jesus died for your sins ( all of them) and was resurrected to give you eternal life and love your neighbor as yourself! Reminding him that you believe that, he will lead you into all truth!

 

[Bendito]

All of the Old Testament....based primarily on the Old Law which is holy, righteous and blameless. As we know, in the NT, Jesus said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it! He is our final and last priest, not that the old law, like the 10 commandments, was not perfect, the problem was that man was not and Jesus took care of that problem with his death, burial and resurrection!....salvation , not by our works, but God's grace.
Since God does not change, what are we to do?...are we to do away with any portion of the law to satisfy our current needs?...the NT says, certainly not!
We live under the NT and not the Old. We live under grace and not the law but, without the law, we would have had no clue what sin was....praise God for the law!
Don't do what is not profitable or what may lead to sin, for in the NT, Jesus said all things are permissible but not everything is profitable. Love the law but stay focused not on a particular precept but knowing Jesus died for your sins ( all of them) and was resurrected to give you eternal life and love your neighbor as yourself! Reminding him that you believe that, he will lead you into all truth!

Do I understand you correctly? We are to ignore the Old Covenant then? Please explain it to me as though I were a child...

 

[Born Again 2004]

Do I understand you correctly? We are to ignore the Old Covenant then? Please explain it to me as though I were a child...

I don't know how you gleaned that out of what I said? You understand me incorrectly! I said the law was holy, righteous and blameless and Jesus came to fulfill the law and I said the law was perfect...I said we live under the New Covenant, no where did I say that we are to ignore the law!

 

[Bendito]

I don't know how you gleaned that out of what I said? You understand me incorrectly! I said the law was holy, righteous and blameless and Jesus came to fulfill the law and I said the law was perfect...I said we live under the New Covenant, no where did I say that we are to ignore the law!

I asked that because what you said leaned heavily toward the New Covenant. Nowhere did you say how we live by the law, how Jesus fulfilled it. Since the argument in Christendom has always been New Covenant vs Old Covenant law, please go into more depth for me?

 

[Born Again 2004]

I asked that because what you said leaned heavily toward the New Covenant. Nowhere did you say how we live by the law, how Jesus fulfilled it. Since the argument in Christendom has always been New Covenant vs Old Covenant law, please go into more depth for me?

No thanks. All you want to do is argue law vs. Grace and you really don't care what I have to say!

 

[Born Again 2004]

I asked that because what you said leaned heavily toward the New Covenant

Hebrews 8:13

 

[Bendito]

Hebrews 8:13

Oh my! So you've taken a partial statement and build a doctrine for yourself of it May I suggest you read all of that chapter Hebrews .. and go into Chapter 9 as well.. Get the entire slice before running off with crumbs... What it talks of is the how of our worship of our God. In the Old Covenant we had priests who would go into the Holy of Holies,according to a precise ritual, for us and we could not enter in...Then He made His covenant with us...and what was that covenant? He says it starting in vs 10 Read it for yourself.....Now in the New Covenant we enter into the Holy of Holies anytime we choose and our Father is glad to see us. So the Old Covenant has not been done away with but has been fulfilled. What has passed away is the method of the Old Covenant. What has passed away is the way we approach the Father....Before it was through an intermediary and now we come rushing into the Holy of Holies with muddy boots and cry Father I've messed up again! And He is glad to see us...

 

[Born Again 2004]

Oh my! So you've taken a partial statement and build a doctrine for yourself of it May I suggest you read all of that chapter Hebrews .. and go into Chapter 9 as well.. Get the entire slice before running off with crumbs... What it talks of is the how of our worship of our God. In the Old Covenant we had priests who would go into the Holy of Holies,according to a precise ritual, for us and we could not enter in...Then He made His covenant with us...and what was that covenant? He says it starting in vs 10 Read it for yourself.....Now in the New Covenant we enter into the Holy of Holies anytime we choose and our Father is glad to see us. So the Old Covenant has not been done away with but has been fulfilled. What has passed away is the method of the Old Covenant. What has passed away is the way we approach the Father....Before it was through an intermediary and now we come rushing into the Holy of Holies with muddy boots and cry Father I've messed up again! And He is glad to see us...

I don't think you know what or where the Holy of Holies know are! If you truly did, you would know the basic difference between the New and Old Covenants!

 

[Bendito]

I don't think you know what or where the Holy of Holies know are! If you truly did, you would know the basic difference between the New and Old Covenants!

So? Teach me...I'm listening. Just don't throw a partial statement or partial verse at me and expect me to like your doctrine...Can do?

 

[Beameup]

So anything not written by Paul doesn't apply? Including the teachings of Jesus?

No, it's OK to read other people's mail, but if there is a check (ie: promise, curse, etc.) inside, it's not OK to "cash it" for yourself.
Paul's set of instructions will fully equip a believer (Gentile) to serve and please God. Romans>>Philimon

 

[Waggles]

other things like the woman stays home while the man works?

Actually, I doubt you will find this written as such in the scriptures. And definitely not in the NT.
Women staying at home and cooking and washing and childrearing is pretty much derived from centuries of social inequality and men usurping their roles
as husbands and fathers and lawmakers. The problem is sin, not the scriptures.

Ephesians 5:
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.
28 So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

The scriptures preach love, tenderness, virtue, respect, caring, honouring, upholding, mercy, forgiveness, gentleness, patience, kindness, etc etc. etc.
Never bullying, or bashing, or harming, or brutality, or drunkenness, or vulgarity, or stealing, or violence within the extended family.
Men are to be role models for christian conduct. They are given more responsibilities by Jesus for setting the standard.
Men are accountable to Jesus who is the head of the Christian family for their conduct, their conversation, their leadership.

As for women staying home that is biological and cultural. Not all women do this. Throughout history women have played important roles outside
the family home - for example in the Second World War manufacturing of munitions and the actual war effort as nurses or spies or intelligence gathering.
Many young and older women in our Fellowship have jobs and careers. Yes, pregnancy does tend to be a female experience, but married
couples make choices to suit themselves as to when the wife will return to work. Having grandparents to babysit really helps.
Don't let your family become too small to share out the childrearing. This helps with women returning back into the workforce.

Acts 16:14-15
And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened,
that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.
15 And when she was baptized, and her household, she besought us, saying, If ye have judged me to be faithful to the Lord,
come into my house, and abide there. And she constrained us.