How Can God Send People to Hell Who Haven't Heard About Jesus?

[complete]

I understand your point of view but I do not limit the soul to the body of the man.

How do you apply this reference below?

Matthew 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Hello @GodB4Us,

I just addressed this in a response to @StewardoftheMystery (reply#152).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GodB4Us]

Hello @GodB4Us,

I just addressed this in a response to @StewardoftheMystery (reply#152).

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

I checked post # 152 and that was a reply to me and not StewardoftheMystery which did not address Matthew 10:28.

Can you recall the correct post? Or explain again how you view this verse.

Matthew 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Thanks in advance.

 

[Butch5]

How do you apply this reference below?

2 Corinthians 5:6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight
8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

@Butch5 What is your rendering of those 3 verses from the Greek in English? How do you apply those words to mean?

I believe this passage is poorly translated. To understand it properly we need to look at the entire context. In context Paul is speaking of the resurrection not an intermediate state. If we go back to chapter 4 we find this.

10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you. 13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. 16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
(KJV 2 Co 4:10–18)

This is previous to the passage you mentioned. He's referencing the resurrection. Dying in the body that the life of Jesus might be manifest in our body. He continues with this line of reasoning.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens
The Holy Bible: King James Version 2 Co 5:1.

In this verse many people think Paul is talking about bodies, an earthly body and a heavenly body. However, he's not. Paul often talks in concepts. Consider Galatians 3 where Sarah and Hagar represent the two covenants. What Paul is speaking of here is two different states of being, mortal and immortal. This will be seen shortly.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
The Holy Bible: King James Version, 2 Co 5:1–2.

Here he speaks of a desire to be "clothed" with the house from heaven (immortality)

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, 2 Co 5:3.

He spoke of being clothed with the house from heaven (immortality). He opposes that to being found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, 2 Co 5:4.

Here again he expresses that desire to "clothed" upon. Notice he doesn't want to be unclothed, but clothed upon. To understand what he means here we need some historical information about this church. The church in Corinth was right next to Athens. Athens was the center of Greek Philosophy and thought. The primary belief among the pagans in this region in Paul's day was that of Plato. Plato taught that man was immortal. He taught that the flesh was inherently evil and that the goal of man, who he claimed had an immortal spirit, was to escape the flesh and ascend through the heavens to the Ploroma (fulness), essentially the ultimate God. Because they believed the flesh was evil the idea of resurrection was rejected. They would want no part of returning to a body that they believed was inherently evil. That's why Paul said the Gospel was foolishness to the Greeks. It was because of resurrection.

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Cor. 1:23 KJV)

The church at Corinth was primarily gentile and this rejection of the resurrection was entering into it.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? (1 Cor. 15:12 KJV)

This is what Paul is addressing. The goal of the Greeks was to shed the body. Paul equates this with, being found naked. He says he doesn't want to be found naked. In other words, He's not looking to shed his body. He doesn't want to be found unclothed, naked, (shed the body), but rather, "clothed upon". The Greek word he uses here means, to put on over. Like one would put on a coat over their clothes. What he's saying is that he wants to put on that heavenly building of God, the immortal state, over his earthly house, mortality. He makes this clear in his next statement where he says, that mortality may be swallowed up of life. Mortality is the mortal state. Life is eternal life, the resurrection, the immortal state. He wants his current mortality to be swallowed up by immortality.

So, He's actually arguing against the very thing many use this passage to try to prove. That being that man can leave the body. That's what the Greeks wanted. Paul says, no. I don't want that. He's saying he wants his mortal body to become immortal. That happens at the resurrection.

Now we move on to the passage in question.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, 2 Co 5:5–8.

The key words in this passage are, absent, present, and body. Many read this as though Paul is saying if a persons ghost is absent from their body it is present with the Lord. However, we just saw that Paul didn't want that. He didn't want to leave the body. The first thing to point out is that Paul is stating a desire, not a theological fact. Now we need to look at these key words. The word translated Absent is ekdemeo. It carries the idea of going abroad, to emigrate, or to live abroad. The word translated present is endemeo. It means to be among one's own people or to be in one's own country. From this the translators get absent and present. The last word is soma and it means body. So lets look at passage again with these definitions in mind.

While we are among our own people (enemeo) present, at home, in the body we are away from our own people (ekdemeo) absent from the Lord.

Lets consider this. The word translated present means to be among one's own people. The word translated absent means to go abroad, at which point one is away from one's people. We can see from there two words that there is nothing that indicates a disembodied being. They simply mean to be with or away from one's home or people. So where does this idea of a disembodied being come from? There's only one key word left. That's body. Because the passage is translated present and absent from the body, people who believe that man can depart the body naturally see their belief in this passage. However, let's consider what Paul was saying earlier. Remember, Paul often uses figures. For mortality and immortality he used the images of an earthly house and a heavenly one. When speaking of the resurrection he used clothed and unclothed. So, maybe the word "body" here isn't referring to his physical body.
Lets think about this some more. Endemeo, present, meant to be with one's own people. Who were Paul's own people? Was it not Christians? Was is not "The Church"? We know these were Paul's people. What did Paul call his people at times? The body. As a matter of fact he called these very people, the body of Christ.

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. (1 Cor. 12:27 KJV)

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (Eph. 4:12 KJV)

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Eph. 4:15-16 KJV)

Paul refers to the church as the body. Does that fit with the idea of endemeo and ekdemeo, being with one's people and going abroad? Sure it does. So how can we read verse 8? Remember Paul is stating a desire.

We are confident, I say, and willing, rather to be away from our own people, the church, and to be present with our own people, the Lord. He's simply saying he'd rather be with the Lord than with the church. That's his desire. Why? What did he say earlier? When he's with the Lord it's the resurrection. He will have his home from heaven, immortality, healing, and all the other great promises that come with it.

 

[GodB4Us]

I believe this passage is poorly translated. To understand it properly we need to look at the entire context. In context Paul is speaking of the resurrection not an intermediate state. If we go back to chapter 4 we find this.

You can go elsewhere in scripture to try to deny what is written plainly but you cannot translate this to mean anything else for how it is written.

So you either translate it as it is in the Greek or you are translating it because you do not like what is written. Since it is written, do not go elsewhere which isn't going to change how you translate that to mean in the context it is given.

 

[complete]

I checked post # 152 and that was a reply to me and not StewardoftheMystery which did not address Matthew 10:28.

Can you recall the correct post? Or explain again how you view this verse.

Matthew 10:28And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Thanks in advance.

Hello @GodB4Us,

There are two or more threads covering the same thing at the moment, and I think I am confusing this thread with another, in which I did enter on the verses you have raised. I am sorry for the confusion.

* Do Our Spirits Die? - Reply#48

'And fear not them which kill the body,
but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear Him
Which is able to destroy
both soul and body in hell.'
(Mat 10:28)

* Man can kill the body, but there is no more that they can do (Luke 12:4): but God is able to destroy the soul, or the whole person, in the grave. The body is dependent upon God to reunite the body and spirit (or breath of life) in order to be a living soul once more, They would remain in the grave, the place of the dead without His intervention. Only the power of God, as expressed in the resurrection of Christ, can raise a man from the dead, and give Him life.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[complete]

I believe this passage is poorly translated. To understand it properly we need to look at the entire context. In context Paul is speaking of the resurrection not an intermediate state. If we go back to chapter 4 we find this.

10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you. 13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. 16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
(KJV 2 Co 4:10–18)

This is previous to the passage you mentioned. He's referencing the resurrection. Dying in the body that the life of Jesus might be manifest in our body. He continues with this line of reasoning.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens
The Holy Bible: King James Version 2 Co 5:1.

In this verse many people think Paul is talking about bodies, an earthly body and a heavenly body. However, he's not. Paul often talks in concepts. Consider Galatians 3 where Sarah and Hagar represent the two covenants. What Paul is speaking of here is two different states of being, mortal and immortal. This will be seen shortly.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
The Holy Bible: King James Version, 2 Co 5:1–2.

Here he speaks of a desire to be "clothed" with the house from heaven (immortality)

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, 2 Co 5:3.

He spoke of being clothed with the house from heaven (immortality). He opposes that to being found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, 2 Co 5:4.

Here again he expresses that desire to "clothed" upon. Notice he doesn't want to be unclothed, but clothed upon. To understand what he means here we need some historical information about this church. The church in Corinth was right next to Athens. Athens was the center of Greek Philosophy and thought. The primary belief among the pagans in this region in Paul's day was that of Plato. Plato taught that man was immortal. He taught that the flesh was inherently evil and that the goal of man, who he claimed had an immortal spirit, was to escape the flesh and ascend through the heavens to the Ploroma (fulness), essentially the ultimate God. Because they believed the flesh was evil the idea of resurrection was rejected. They would want no part of returning to a body that they believed was inherently evil. That's why Paul said the Gospel was foolishness to the Greeks. It was because of resurrection.

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Cor. 1:23 KJV)

The church at Corinth was primarily gentile and this rejection of the resurrection was entering into it.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? (1 Cor. 15:12 KJV)

This is what Paul is addressing. The goal of the Greeks was to shed the body. Paul equates this with, being found naked. He says he doesn't want to be found naked. In other words, He's not looking to shed his body. He doesn't want to be found unclothed, naked, (shed the body), but rather, "clothed upon". The Greek word he uses here means, to put on over. Like one would put on a coat over their clothes. What he's saying is that he wants to put on that heavenly building of God, the immortal state, over his earthly house, mortality. He makes this clear in his next statement where he says, that mortality may be swallowed up of life. Mortality is the mortal state. Life is eternal life, the resurrection, the immortal state. He wants his current mortality to be swallowed up by immortality.

So, He's actually arguing against the very thing many use this passage to try to prove. That being that man can leave the body. That's what the Greeks wanted. Paul says, no. I don't want that. He's saying he wants his mortal body to become immortal. That happens at the resurrection.

Now we move on to the passage in question.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, 2 Co 5:5–8.

The key words in this passage are, absent, present, and body. Many read this as though Paul is saying if a persons ghost is absent from their body it is present with the Lord. However, we just saw that Paul didn't want that. He didn't want to leave the body. The first thing to point out is that Paul is stating a desire, not a theological fact. Now we need to look at these key words. The word translated Absent is ekdemeo. It carries the idea of going abroad, to emigrate, or to live abroad. The word translated present is endemeo. It means to be among one's own people or to be in one's own country. From this the translators get absent and present. The last word is soma and it means body. So lets look at passage again with these definitions in mind.

While we are among our own people (enemeo) present, at home, in the body we are away from our own people (ekdemeo) absent from the Lord.

Lets consider this. The word translated present means to be among one's own people. The word translated absent means to go abroad, at which point one is away from one's people. We can see from there two words that there is nothing that indicates a disembodied being. They simply mean to be with or away from one's home or people. So where does this idea of a disembodied being come from? There's only one key word left. That's body. Because the passage is translated present and absent from the body, people who believe that man can depart the body naturally see their belief in this passage. However, let's consider what Paul was saying earlier. Remember, Paul often uses figures. For mortality and immortality he used the images of an earthly house and a heavenly one. When speaking of the resurrection he used clothed and unclothed. So, maybe the word "body" here isn't referring to his physical body.
Lets think about this some more. Endemeo, present, meant to be with one's own people. Who were Paul's own people? Was it not Christians? Was is not "The Church"? We know these were Paul's people. What did Paul call his people at times? The body. As a matter of fact he called these very people, the body of Christ.

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. (1 Cor. 12:27 KJV)

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (Eph. 4:12 KJV)

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Eph. 4:15-16 KJV)

Paul refers to the church as the body. Does that fit with the idea of endemeo and ekdemeo, being with one's people and going abroad? Sure it does. So how can we read verse 8? Remember Paul is stating a desire.

We are confident, I say, and willing, rather to be away from our own people, the church, and to be present with our own people, the Lord. He's simply saying he'd rather be with the Lord than with the church. That's his desire. Why? What did he say earlier? When he's with the Lord it's the resurrection. He will have his home from heaven, immortality, healing, and all the other great promises that come with it.

'For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
.. we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
.... For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
...... If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
.. not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
.... that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
...... Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
........ Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Therefore we are always confident,
.. knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body,
.... we are absent from the Lord:
...... ( For we walk by faith, not by sight )
........ We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
.......... and to be present with the Lord.'
(2Cor. 5:1-8)

Hello @Butch5,

I am under the impression that the 'earthly house' is our body which is of the earth, earthy, which, as you say is 'mortal', subject to corruption. Whereas our 'house which is from heaven', is the resurrection body which we will, 'put on,' at resurrection, it is heavenly in origin, and immortal, not subject to corruption. That way 'mortality' is 'swallowed up of life'.

The earthly tabernacle was burdensome, Paul felt the groan of creation strongly as all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ do. He wanted to be clothed upon with his house from heaven.

Paul did not want to be found naked, ( ie., neither clothed by his earthly body, or by his heavenly one, but dead and in the grave ) Neither did He want to go on as one 'at home in the body', for that meant being 'absent from the Lord'. In fact instead of either of those options, he greatly desired to be 'present with the Lord', but that would require the Lord's presence, His coming; for only then would corruption put on in-corruption, and mortality put on immortality, and the body Paul inhabited be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, into the resurrection body that will be his for eternity, like unto His Lord's own body.

* I have not been able to take in fully what you have said, in order to respond to it properly, but I will do so (God willing)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

'For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved,
.. we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
.... For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
...... If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened:
.. not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon,
.... that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
...... Now He that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God,
........ Who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.
Therefore we are always confident,
.. knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body,
.... we are absent from the Lord:
...... ( For we walk by faith, not by sight )
........ We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body,
.......... and to be present with the Lord.'
(2Cor. 5:1-8)

Hello @Butch5,

I am under the impression that the 'earthly house' is our body which is of the earth, earthy, which, as you say is 'mortal', subject to corruption. Whereas our 'house which is from heaven', is the resurrection body which we will, 'put on,' at resurrection, it is heavenly in origin, and immortal, not subject to corruption. That way 'mortality' is 'swallowed up of life'.

The earthly tabernacle was burdensome, Paul felt the groan of creation strongly as all believers in the Lord Jesus Christ do. He wanted to be clothed upon with his house from heaven.

Paul did not want to be found naked, ( ie., neither clothed by his earthly body, or by his heavenly one, but dead and in the grave ) Neither did He want to go on as one 'at home in the body', for that meant being 'absent from the Lord'. In fact instead of either of those options, he greatly desired to be 'present with the Lord', but that would require the Lord's presence, His coming; for only then would corruption put on in-corruption, and mortality put on immortality, and the body Paul inhabited be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, into the resurrection body that will be his for eternity, like unto His Lord's own body.

* I have not been able to take in fully what you have said, in order to respond to it properly, but I will do so (God willing)

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Hi Chris,

My point in that was to show that Paul did not look to escape his body as the Greeks did. When he speaks of mortality being swallowed up by life, I believe he's referring to two different states of being. One is mortal and the other immortal. The body will be the same. According to Scripture there can't be an earthly body and a heavenly body, as in two bodies. If that were the case then we would be talking about reincarnation not resurrection. You may have meant earthly and heavenly as two different forms of the same body. If that is what you meant I agree. To the Greeks, being found naked was to be without a body. They were not looking for anther body after death. Their goal was to escape the body and continue on as a ghost.

 

[Butch5]

You can go elsewhere in scripture to try to deny what is written plainly but you cannot translate this to mean anything else for how it is written.

So you either translate it as it is in the Greek or you are translating it because you do not like what is written. Since it is written, do not go elsewhere which isn't going to change how you translate that to mean in the context it is given.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. However, you asked for my thoughts on that passage and I gave them to you. The interpretation I gave you agrees with the grammar. It agrees with the context of the passage. It agrees with the context of Scripture as whole, and it agrees with what Paul believed. This idea that man is a ghost that lives on after the body dies, does not fit the passage. It does not fit the whole of Scripture. And, it does not fit with what Paul believed. Paul didn't believe that man was ghost that could life apart from the body. How do we know what Paul believed? We find it in his first letter to this same church in his own words.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 15:15–18.

In this passage Paul is speaking of Christians who have died. He says if there is no resurrection then those who have died in Christ have perished. They're not in Heaven. They're not with the Lord. They're gone. If this idea that man lives on as a ghost after the body dies is true, then Paul's statement is at worst a lie and at best misinformed. So, either Paul is wrong or those who hold that position are wrong. I'll let yo make the call. How are we to understand that in his first letter he tells these Christians that apart from the Resurrection dead Christians have perished and then in his second letter says they're with the Lord. Those two contradict one another. If they're with the Lord they haven't perished. If they've perished, they're not with the Lord.

 

[Butch5]

Well this explains a lot for why we are far apart. The irony is that many who go to the Greek and Hebrew argue among themselves for what scripture is meaning in English.

And many go into the Greek and Hebrew reading their beliefs into scripture as they do in the scripture in English.

Wisdom comes from the Lord. He opens the eyes to see and the ears to hear.

So I suggest that if you value your personal reconciled relationship with God thru Jesus Christ, you may want to avail yourself to Him for help at that throne of grace.

Even if you think everything is hunky dorey between the two of you, ask anyway just to be sure. You never know; He might answer.

1 John 2:20 But ye have an unction from the Holy One, and ye know all things.
21 I have not written unto you because ye know not the truth, but because ye know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
28 And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

James 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do.
14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

It's interesting that you speak of people reading things into Scripture. I gave you clear passages of Scripture showing that what I'm saying is coming straight out of Scripture. I've asked repeatedly for you to establish you premise. You've declined to do so. If I laid out a logical argument, from Scripture properly exegeted, I can hard be accused of reading my beliefs into Scripture.

The passages you posted are interesting. I would ask, given these passages, why don't all of us agree? Are only those who hold your position Christians, as it appears those that don't apparently don't have the unction?

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. However, you asked for my thoughts on that passage and I gave them to you. The interpretation I gave you agrees with the grammar. It agrees with the context of the passage. It agrees with the context of Scripture as whole, and it agrees with what Paul believed. This idea that man is a ghost that lives on after the body dies, does not fit the passage. It does not fit the whole of Scripture. And, it does not fit with what Paul believed. Paul didn't believe that man was ghost that could life apart from the body. How do we know what Paul believed? We find it in his first letter to this same church in his own words.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 15:15–18.

In this passage Paul is speaking of Christians who have died. He says if there is no resurrection then those who have died in Christ have perished. They're not in Heaven. They're not with the Lord. They're gone. If this idea that man lives on as a ghost after the body dies is true, then Paul's statement is at worst a lie and at best misinformed. So, either Paul is wrong or those who hold that position are wrong. I'll let yo make the call. How are we to understand that in his first letter he tells these Christians that apart from the Resurrection dead Christians have perished and then in his second letter says they're with the Lord. Those two contradict one another. If they're with the Lord they haven't perished. If they've perished, they're not with the Lord.

There’s no “soul sleep”, though. Souls are more active when we sleep, that’s the REM stage (rapid eye movement) when we dream. If you believe that soul is a kind of energy that keeps the heart pumping, then it surely can't be "destroyed", it can only be converted from one form to another.

In fact, all deceased will be resurrected, both the righteous and the wicked. The righteous will inherit the millennial kingdom and rule with Christ (Rev. 20:5), after that the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:15).

The background of 1 Cor. 15 is that the local congregation at that time was deeply influenced by gnosticism, and in their understanding, physical body was just a shell or a host for the soul, after death, soul would be released from the body as disembodied ghosts. It seems that some of you guys are under the same impression, that only the spirit remains. Paul actually rebuked that. In 2 Cor. 5:1-8 he assured the Corinthian church that believers will be resurrected with new physical bodies, it goes like the germinating of a seed, or in another analogy, the metomorphysis of a caterpillar.

 

[Butch5]

There’s no “soul sleep”, though. Souls are more active when we sleep, that’s the REM stage (rapid eye movement) when we dream. If you believe that soul is a kind of energy that keeps the heart pumping, then it surely can't be "destroyed", it can only be converted from one form to another.

In fact, all deceased will be resurrected, both the righteous and the wicked. The righteous will inherit the millennial kingdom and rule with Christ (Rev. 20:5), after that the wicked will be cast into the Lake of Fire (Rev. 20:15).

The background of 1 Cor. 15 is that the local congregation at that time was deeply influenced by gnosticism, and in their understanding, physical body was just a shell or a host for the soul, after death, soul would be released from the body as disembodied ghosts. It seems that some of you guys are under the same impression, that only the spirit remains. Paul actually rebuked that. In 2 Cor. 5:1-8 he assured the Corinthian church that believers will be resurrected with new physical bodies, it goes like the germinating of a seed, or in another analogy, the metomorphysis of a caterpillar.

I didn't suggest there was soul sleep. Gen 2:7 explains how a soul is created. It is the body and the breath or spirit of God. These two became a soul. When they separate the soul no longer exists. That which animates man is the breath or spirit of God. Of course that doesn't die. It returns to Him when man dies. Regarding 2 Cor. 5:1-8, I covered that in another post and came to the same conclusion you did.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

I didn't suggest there was soul sleep. Gen 2:7 explains how a soul is created. It is the body and the breath or spirit of God. These two became a soul. When they separate the soul no longer exists. That which animates man is the breath or spirit of God. Of course that doesn't die. It returns to Him when man dies. Regarding 2 Cor. 5:1-8, I covered that in another post and came to the same conclusion you did.

And speaking of the breath or spirit of God, the amazing thing is, the name of God, YHWH, is believed to be mimicking the sound of breathing, YH for inhaling, WH for exhaling. So every breath we take is uttering the holy name of God. So not only does His holy name has a deep phylosophical meaning of "I am who I am", it also has a shallow phonetic meaning of air circulation.

 

[GodB4Us]

Hello @GodB4Us,

There are two or more threads covering the same thing at the moment, and I think I am confusing this thread with another, in which I did enter on the verses you have raised. I am sorry for the confusion.

* Do Our Spirits Die? - Reply#48

'And fear not them which kill the body,
but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear Him
Which is able to destroy
both soul and body in hell.'
(Mat 10:28)

* Man can kill the body, but there is no more that they can do (Luke 12:4): but God is able to destroy the soul, or the whole person, in the grave. The body is dependent upon God to reunite the body and spirit (or breath of life) in order to be a living soul once more, They would remain in the grave, the place of the dead without His intervention. Only the power of God, as expressed in the resurrection of Christ, can raise a man from the dead, and give Him life.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Thank you for answering.

Per your explanation, I do not see the difference between man and God in killing the body since man is doing the same thing in taking away the breath of life in putting the man he killed in the grave.

For there to be a difference, for why we should fear God and not man that can kill the body, the soul has to be more than the breath of life to be sent to hell in the afterlife to be destroyed or to suffer torment.

 

[GodB4Us]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. However, you asked for my thoughts on that passage and I gave them to you. The interpretation I gave you agrees with the grammar. It agrees with the context of the passage. It agrees with the context of Scripture as whole, and it agrees with what Paul believed. This idea that man is a ghost that lives on after the body dies, does not fit the passage. It does not fit the whole of Scripture. And, it does not fit with what Paul believed. Paul didn't believe that man was ghost that could life apart from the body. How do we know what Paul believed? We find it in his first letter to this same church in his own words.

16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: 17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. 18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version. (Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc., 2009), 1 Co 15:15–18.

In this passage Paul is speaking of Christians who have died. He says if there is no resurrection then those who have died in Christ have perished. They're not in Heaven. They're not with the Lord. They're gone. If this idea that man lives on as a ghost after the body dies is true, then Paul's statement is at worst a lie and at best misinformed. So, either Paul is wrong or those who hold that position are wrong. I'll let yo make the call. How are we to understand that in his first letter he tells these Christians that apart from the Resurrection dead Christians have perished and then in his second letter says they're with the Lord. Those two contradict one another. If they're with the Lord they haven't perished. If they've perished, they're not with the Lord.

If man does not live on after the body dies, then how can he be resurrected if he ceased to exists after he has died? How can Christ be resurrected?

Hence the spirits of the dead are raised up as Christ Jesus was raised up.

Where did Christ go after He had died? He descended to preach unto those in prison.

Ephesians 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?
10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20 Which sometime were disobedient,....

Did Christ meet the thief on the cross that day in Paradise after He & the thief had died? He said He would & I believe Christ did meet him in Paradise aka Abraham's bosom that day. Why else to say that to the thief per his request?

Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.
42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.

You can play with the commas all you want but scripture did not originally had commas and it still does not change His answer to the thief on the cross for when the thief would be with Him in Paradise which is that day.

 

[GodB4Us]

It's interesting that you speak of people reading things into Scripture. I gave you clear passages of Scripture showing that what I'm saying is coming straight out of Scripture. I've asked repeatedly for you to establish you premise. You've declined to do so. If I laid out a logical argument, from Scripture properly exegeted, I can hard be accused of reading my beliefs into Scripture.

The passages you posted are interesting. I would ask, given these passages, why don't all of us agree? Are only those who hold your position Christians, as it appears those that don't apparently don't have the unction?

We all prophesy in part and know in part but when we see Him face to face, we shall know everything.

But as it is, personal beliefs can interfere with seeing the truth in the scripture as it is written and since you are already doubting scripture in English for why you go to the Greek & Hebrew, rather than to Him for wisdom, in discerning the truth in His words in the KJV, I can only suggest that you pray for His help to see the truth in His words in the Greek & Hebrew if not in the English.

Like it or not, those who go to the Greek and Hebrew disagree among themselves also for the meaning of His words. Hence wisdom is needed from the Lord to see the truth in His words and not just to see the truth in His parables.

 

[complete]

I believe this passage is poorly translated. To understand it properly we need to look at the entire context. In context Paul is speaking of the resurrection not an intermediate state. If we go back to chapter 4 we find this.

10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus’ sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh. 12 So then death worketh in us, but life in you. 13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak; 14 Knowing that he which raised up the Lord Jesus shall raise up us also by Jesus, and shall present us with you. 15 For all things are for your sakes, that the abundant grace might through the thanksgiving of many redound to the glory of God. 16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day. 17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory; 18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
(KJV 2 Co 4:10–18)

This is previous to the passage you mentioned. He's referencing the resurrection. Dying in the body that the life of Jesus might be manifest in our body. He continues with this line of reasoning.

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens
The Holy Bible: King James Version 2 Co 5:1.

In this verse many people think Paul is talking about bodies, an earthly body and a heavenly body. However, he's not. Paul often talks in concepts. Consider Galatians 3 where Sarah and Hagar represent the two covenants. What Paul is speaking of here is two different states of being, mortal and immortal. This will be seen shortly.

Hello @Butch5.

I believe that when Paul speaks of, 'this tabernacle', and 'a building of God', then he is referring to our mortal and immortal state, in terms of our bodies being like houses which we live in and through.

2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
The Holy Bible: King James Version, 2 Co 5:1–2.

Here he speaks of a desire to be "clothed" with the house from heaven (immortality)

3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, 2 Co 5:3.

He spoke of being clothed with the house from heaven (immortality). He opposes that to being found naked.

4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, 2 Co 5:4.

Here again he expresses that desire to be "clothed" upon. Notice he doesn't want to be unclothed, but clothed upon. To understand what he means here we need some historical information about this church. The church in Corinth was right next to Athens. Athens was the center of Greek Philosophy and thought. The primary belief among the pagans in this region in Paul's day was that of Plato. Plato taught that man was immortal. He taught that the flesh was inherently evil and that the goal of man, who he claimed had an immortal spirit, was to escape the flesh and ascend through the heavens to the Ploroma (fulness), essentially the ultimate God. Because they believed the flesh was evil the idea of resurrection was rejected. They would want no part of returning to a body that they believed was inherently evil. That's why Paul said the Gospel was foolishness to the Greeks. It was because of resurrection.

* Thank you for this insight.

But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; (1 Cor. 1:23 KJV)

The church at Corinth was primarily gentile and this rejection of the resurrection was entering into it.

12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? (1 Cor. 15:12 KJV)

This is what Paul is addressing. The goal of the Greeks was to shed the body. Paul equates this with, being found naked. He says he doesn't want to be found naked. In other words, He's not looking to shed his body. He doesn't want to be found unclothed, naked, (shed the body), but rather, "clothed upon". The Greek word he uses here means, to put on over. Like one would put on a coat over their clothes. What he's saying is that he wants to put on that heavenly building of God, the immortal state, over his earthly house, mortality. He makes this clear in his next statement where he says, that mortality may be swallowed up of life. Mortality is the mortal state. Life is eternal life, the resurrection, the immortal state. He wants his current mortality to be swallowed up by immortality.

So, He's actually arguing against the very thing many use this passage to try to prove. That being that man can leave the body. That's what the Greeks wanted. Paul says, no. I don't want that. He's saying he wants his mortal body to become immortal. That happens at the resurrection.

* Praise God! Yes, I see what you are saying, and agree.

Now we move on to the passage in question.

6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:
7 ( For we walk by faith, not by sight )

8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
The Holy Bible: King James Version, 2 Co 5:5–8.

The key words in this passage are, absent, present, and body. Many read this as though Paul is saying if a persons ghost is absent from their body it is present with the Lord. However, we just saw that Paul didn't want that. He didn't want to leave the body. The first thing to point out is that Paul is stating a desire, not a theological fact. Now we need to look at these key words. The word translated Absent is ekdemeo. It carries the idea of going abroad, to emigrate, or to live abroad. The word translated present is endemeo. It means to be among one's own people or to be in one's own country. From this the translators get absent and present. The last word is soma and it means body. So lets look at passage again with these definitions in mind.

While we are among our own people (enemeo) present, at home, in the body we are away from our own people (ekdemeo) absent from the Lord.

Lets consider this. The word translated present means to be among one's own people. The word translated absent means to go abroad, at which point one is away from one's people. We can see from there two words that there is nothing that indicates a disembodied being. They simply mean to be with or away from one's home or people. So where does this idea of a disembodied being come from? There's only one key word left. That's body. Because the passage is translated present and absent from the body, people who believe that man can depart the body naturally see their belief in this passage. However, let's consider what Paul was saying earlier. Remember, Paul often uses figures. For mortality and immortality he used the images of an earthly house and a heavenly one. When speaking of the resurrection he used clothed and unclothed. So, maybe the word "body" here isn't referring to his physical body.
Lets think about this some more. Endemeo, present, meant to be with one's own people. Who were Paul's own people? Was it not Christians? Was is not "The Church"? We know these were Paul's people. What did Paul call his people at times? The body. As a matter of fact he called these very people, the body of Christ.

Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular. (1 Cor. 12:27 KJV)

For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: (Eph. 4:12 KJV)

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love. (Eph. 4:15-16 KJV)

Paul refers to the church as the body. Does that fit with the idea of endemeo and ekdemeo, being with one's people and going abroad? Sure it does. So how can we read verse 8? Remember Paul is stating a desire.

We are confident, I say, and willing, rather to be away from our own people, the church, and to be present with our own people, the Lord. He's simply saying he'd rather be with the Lord than with the church. That's his desire. Why? What did he say earlier? When he's with the Lord it's the resurrection. He will have his home from heaven, immortality, healing, and all the other great promises that come with it.

* The coming of the Lord, as spoken of by Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4, was the hope of the believer at the time that Paul wrote this epistle. The preaching of the twelve was geared towards the repentance of Israel, and the returning of the Saviour as preached by Peter in Acts 3:18-20. Paul therefore would expect to be living at the time of the Lord's coming, So being' absent from the body', would have meant being 'present with the Lord', for the Lord would have come into the air, and they would have been changed in a moment in the twinkling of an eye, from mortal to immortality, and have a resurrection body like that of their Lord. That was preferable to either being naked in death, or alive and being' absent from the Lord'.

* God, in His foreknowledge knew the outcome of the preaching of the twelve, and he was under no illusions as to Israel's response, but opportunity had to be given.

* I will certainly look at what you have said, and check it out.

Thank you for the time and thought you have given to this entry, and for sharing it with us.
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Butch5]

And speaking of the breath or spirit of God, the amazing thing is, the name of God, YHWH, is believed to be mimicking the sound of breathing, YH for inhaling, WH for exhaling. So every breath we take is uttering the holy name of God. So not only does His holy name has a deep phylosophical meaning of "I am who I am", it also has a shallow phonetic meaning of air circulation.

I recently ae across that and found it fascinating

 

[Br. Bear]

Let every thing that hath breath praise the LORD. Praise ye the LORD.
Psalm 150:6

 

[GodB4Us]

I recently ae across that and found it fascinating

'And fear not them which kill the body,
but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear Him
Which is able to destroy
both soul and body in hell.'
(Mat 10:28)

I do not see the difference between man and God in killing the body since man is doing the same thing in taking away the breath of life in putting the man he killed in the grave.

For there to be a difference, for why we should fear God and not man that can kill the body, the soul has to be more than the breath of life to be sent to hell in the afterlife to be destroyed so as to suffer eternal torment.

 

[Jonathan_Gale]

'And fear not them which kill the body,
but are not able to kill the soul:
but rather fear Him
Which is able to destroy
both soul and body in hell.'
(Mat 10:28)

I do not see the difference between man and God in killing the body since man is doing the same thing in taking away the breath of life in putting the man he killed in the grave.

For there to be a difference, for why we should fear God and not man that can kill the body, the soul has to be more than the breath of life to be sent to hell in the afterlife to be destroyed so as to suffer eternal torment.

Well y’all know the saying, “believers live twice die once, unbelievers live once die twice.”