Active
Yes, and that's the origin of the traditions of men.
Going from the Nursery to the Garden of Faith
Yes, and that's the origin of the traditions of men.
Loyal
2 Timothy 3:16-17
All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.
Moderator
Staff Member
Here's a question to be asked of both sides of the aisle so to speak. Taking a political phrase and adjoining it to Catholicism/Protestantism ongoing battle.
Can a person be saved without ever being either in a Catholic church or Catholic?
Can a person be saved without ever being either in a Protestant church or Protestant?
More than likely you will get your answer as it pertains to the correctness of the persons belief by how they answer, be they Catholic or Protestant.
You will also find in the question, that some will say that it is not so easy to make it cut and dry! Well, in "The Way" it is! My little play on words there.
Most people when asked to what religion you belong, will state a denomination if they happen to be Christian. Rarely, will they say I belong to Jesus, or even say Christianity!
So, to the Catholic they say I am Catholic. To the Baptist, they say I am Baptist. And the list goes on.
I may invite people to a church, and if they don't already believe in Jesus, I take them there not to necessarily find Him, but that they might see what fellowship in the Lord looks like, because you can find him there, but you can also find him in a field, a hotel, and this list goes on and on! Thankfully! Just look at the Testimony bios. of the members here, and you will see how true this is! \o/
I try not to let specific practices divide me from others, but if it is a perversion of Scripture or if they ask...then Scripture takes precedence over traditions of man.
I once worked with a Sister in Christ who once belonged to a church (non-denominational) whose pastor she asked a question of. He told her don't worry about that, just do as I say, and I won't lead you wrong! She took her husbands' hand and while running, told him, "We ain't going back to that church ever again!!!" Far as I know, since I haven't seen her in years, she is still following Jesus, and reading His Word!
I kind of know a little about most Western Christian churches, having attended a few in my day. Even a few cults tossed in too! But unless you think that when we all get to heaven, that we'll be split up by denomination, I don't think the Perfect Church we belong to, in the Body of Christ, has RCC, Protestant, Non-Denomination, at its head. Only Jesus!
Adding a few more of my cents to the Body of Christ that is located here at Talk Jesus!
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Can a person be saved without ever being either in a Catholic church or Catholic?
Can a person be saved without ever being either in a Protestant church or Protestant?
More than likely you will get your answer as it pertains to the correctness of the persons belief by how they answer, be they Catholic or Protestant.
You will also find in the question, that some will say that it is not so easy to make it cut and dry! Well, in "The Way" it is! My little play on words there.
Most people when asked to what religion you belong, will state a denomination if they happen to be Christian. Rarely, will they say I belong to Jesus, or even say Christianity!
So, to the Catholic they say I am Catholic. To the Baptist, they say I am Baptist. And the list goes on.
I may invite people to a church, and if they don't already believe in Jesus, I take them there not to necessarily find Him, but that they might see what fellowship in the Lord looks like, because you can find him there, but you can also find him in a field, a hotel, and this list goes on and on! Thankfully! Just look at the Testimony bios. of the members here, and you will see how true this is!
\o/ I try not to let specific practices divide me from others, but if it is a perversion of Scripture or if they ask...then Scripture takes precedence over traditions of man.
I once worked with a Sister in Christ who once belonged to a church (non-denominational) whose pastor she asked a question of. He told her don't worry about that, just do as I say, and I won't lead you wrong! She took her husbands' hand and while running, told him, "We ain't going back to that church ever again!!!" Far as I know, since I haven't seen her in years, she is still following Jesus, and reading His Word!
I kind of know a little about most Western Christian churches, having attended a few in my day. Even a few cults tossed in too! But unless you think that when we all get to heaven, that we'll be split up by denomination, I don't think the Perfect Church we belong to, in the Body of Christ, has RCC, Protestant, Non-Denomination, at its head. Only Jesus!
Adding a few more of my cents to the Body of Christ that is located here at Talk Jesus!
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Loyal
I most certainly tell people I belong to Jesus or am a follower of Jesus, and if they persist in my denomination I let them know and make sure I always add in "denominations divide Jesus unites". Any one who tells me about there denomination before Jesus a red flag goes up automatically. You ask you typically Christian if they are they saved and they say yes I go to church or yes I am such and such "you fill in the denomination"
Loyal
Indeed, a person can be saved without being christian, as our Salvation is not because of our Merit as from our knowledge of what God's working is. Salvation comes from the Merit that comes from our hearts. As Paul States "for those who know the law they will be judged by the law, and for those who do not know the law they will be judged by the law written in their heart"Here's a question to be asked of both sides of the aisle so to speak. Taking a political phrase and adjoining it to Catholicism/Protestantism ongoing battle.
Can a person be saved without ever being either in a Catholic church or Catholic?
Can a person be saved without ever being either in a Protestant church or Protestant?
More than likely you will get your answer as it pertains to the correctness of the persons belief by how they answer, be they Catholic or Protestant.
You will also find in the question, that some will say that it is not so easy to make it cut and dry! Well, in "The Way" it is! My little play on words there.
Most people when asked to what religion you belong, will state a denomination if they happen to be Christian. Rarely, will they say I belong to Jesus, or even say Christianity!
So, to the Catholic they say I am Catholic. To the Baptist, they say I am Baptist. And the list goes on.
I may invite people to a church, and if they don't already believe in Jesus, I take them there not to necessarily find Him, but that they might see what fellowship in the Lord looks like, because you can find him there, but you can also find him in a field, a hotel, and this list goes on and on! Thankfully! Just look at the Testimony bios. of the members here, and you will see how true this is!
I try not to let specific practices divide me from others, but if it is a perversion of Scripture or if they ask...then Scripture takes precedence over traditions of man.
I once worked with a Sister in Christ who once belonged to a church (non-denominational) whose pastor she asked a question of. He told her don't worry about that, just do as I say, and I won't lead you wrong! She took her husbands' hand and while running, told him, "We ain't going back to that church ever again!!!" Far as I know, since I haven't seen her in years, she is still following Jesus, and reading His Word!
I kind of know a little about most Western Christian churches, having attended a few in my day. Even a few cults tossed in too! But unless you think that when we all get to heaven, that we'll be split up by denomination, I don't think the Perfect Church we belong to, in the Body of Christ, has RCC, Protestant, Non-Denomination, at its head. Only Jesus!
Adding a few more of my cents to the Body of Christ that is located here at Talk Jesus!
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
So it is the content of the heart, the love within the heart that we are judged by. Not what's in our heads.
As we see in the Judgment of the king, the man says to the Lord, but Lord I've cast out demons in your name, I healed people in your name. But the king said away from me I never knew you. And yet those who had virtues, and love, and did great things for others, and who are selfless. The king said come with me.
If we only cast out demons, and heal people in God's name for our own benefit. Then we gain nothing.
But if we give from our hearts without expecting anything in return, then we gain all of Heaven
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Moderator
Staff Member
Dear Brother Bill,
In my eyes you kind of sidestepped the answering of the question that I posed to all. I address this to you, because you answered the post! lol
I underlined the pertinent part of your post that I saw as a sidestep. You can be a Christian without belonging to a church, but can you be saved without the sacraments of the church one belongs to? I guess I should have added sacraments to the initial question of: "Catholic church or Catholic" or "Protestant church or Protestant" for each has them.
I understand that all are going to be judged brother. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28 NKJV
I just don't want to get into the Salvation by Works vs Grace discussion here, because it has been done here on Talk Jesus enough that most who have participated in those discussions, probably know each side by heart!!!
Never achieving a satisfactory answer for either side to think that they have any effect on those who believe differently than they do. Plus, I believe that I've derailed the thread enough with presenting the question that I did. The point I was attempting to show was that there are those in both denominations, that believe that without the church of which they belong to, salvation cannot be achieved. I've attended both sides and know this belief to be true on each side, though less so in Protestantism.
It's not about faith given to us in sufficiency by God to be saved, but rather the church itself and the sacraments that take priority to their salvation/continued salvation.I do thank you for sharing your thoughts!
God Bless.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Loyal
I will tell you what i understand, but you may not accept it.Dear Brother Bill,
In my eyes you kind of sidestepped the answering of the question that I posed to all. I address this to you, because you answered the post! lol
I underlined the pertinent part of your post that I saw as a sidestep. You can be a Christian without belonging to a church, but can you be saved without the sacraments of the church one belongs to? I guess I should have added sacraments to the initial question of: "Catholic church or Catholic" or "Protestant church or Protestant" for each has them.
I understand that all are going to be judged brother. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28 NKJV
I just don't want to get into the Salvation by Works vs Grace discussion here, because it has been done here on Talk Jesus enough that most who have participated in those discussions, probably know each side by heart!!!
The point I was attempting to show was that there are those in both denominations, that believe that without the church of which they belong to, salvation cannot be achieved. I've attended both sides and know this belief to be true on each side, though less so in Protestantism.
I do thank you for sharing your thoughts!
God Bless.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
The Eucharist, as Catholics call it. It is the Body and Blood of Jesus.
We, all of us, recieve the Eucharist in different ways, for some, they recieve it via scripture. Because when you recieve the Word ( Jesus ) into your heart, you recieve Jesus into your heart. And what is Jesus, He is the Eucharist.
There is more, but if you can understand this, then the rest doesn't matter.
Loyal
I do not see it as a side step, but an answer to your questionDear Brother Bill,
In my eyes you kind of sidestepped the answering of the question that I posed to all. I address this to you, because you answered the post! lol
I underlined the pertinent part of your post that I saw as a sidestep. You can be a Christian without belonging to a church, but can you be saved without the sacraments of the church one belongs to? I guess I should have added sacraments to the initial question of: "Catholic church or Catholic" or "Protestant church or Protestant" for each has them.
I understand that all are going to be judged brother. And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28 NKJV
I just don't want to get into the Salvation by Works vs Grace discussion here, because it has been done here on Talk Jesus enough that most who have participated in those discussions, probably know each side by heart!!!
The point I was attempting to show was that there are those in both denominations, that believe that without the church of which they belong to, salvation cannot be achieved. I've attended both sides and know this belief to be true on each side, though less so in Protestantism.
I do thank you for sharing your thoughts!
God Bless.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Moderator
Staff Member
Dear Brother Bill,
Maybe, if you had added in your reply what you did in post#147 I might have accepted it.
With of course further extrapolation on your part to then an added query.
Can one receive the Eucharist/Communion outside of the guidance of the church, be it Catholic or Protestant?
It always come back to the dictates of the church brother. When it should come back to Jesus, the Word.
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Active
Forgive me for butting in, but Jesus said when you do this in remembrance of me, not when you gather as a group. I think perhaps a person can partake of communion all by himself.
Moderator
Staff Member
Dear Brother,
I agree, but with some churches, they can be stickler for rules!
With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
\o/
<><
Loyal
I would say communion is meant to be done as a group.
1Cor 11:17; But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse.
1Cor 11:18; For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it.
1Cor 11:19; For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.
1Cor 11:20; Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper,
1Cor 11:21; for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk.
1Cor 11:22; What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.
1Cor 11:23; For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;
1Cor 11:24; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
1Cor 11:33; So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
1Cor 11:17; But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse.
1Cor 11:18; For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it.
1Cor 11:19; For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.
1Cor 11:20; Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper,
1Cor 11:21; for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk.
1Cor 11:22; What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.
1Cor 11:23; For I received from the Lord that which I also delivered to you, that the Lord Jesus in the night in which He was betrayed took bread;
1Cor 11:24; and when He had given thanks, He broke it and said, "This is My body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of Me."
1Cor 11:33; So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
Loyal
Whyever would anyone choose to take communion alone? Sure, there are exceptional circumstances, such as people who are confined to their homes etc, but in the normal run of things? Have we abandoned the idea of God creating a kingdom, a people, a family, an assembly? Seems weird to me.
Active
Communing with Him is a personal one on one relationship. When you pray you are in communion,when you live in his righteousness you are communing with him.
Communion is not simply crackers and grape juice at church.
Loyal
In the chapter right after the "communion/last supper chapter of 1st Corinthians.. there is this.
1Cor 12:12; For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
1Cor 12:13; For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
1Cor 12:14; For the body is not one member, but many.
1Cor 12:15; If the foot says, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
1Cor 12:16; And if the ear says, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
1Cor 12:17; If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
1Cor 12:18; But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
1Cor 12:19; If they were all one member, where would the body be?
1Cor 12:20; But now there are many members, but one body.
1Cor 12:21; And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
1Cor 12:22; On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary;
1Cor 12:23; and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable,
1Cor 12:24; whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked,
1Cor 12:25; so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
1Cor 12:26; And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
1Cor 12:27; Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
1Cor 12:28; And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
1Cor 12:29; All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
1Cor 12:30; All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
1Cor 12:31; But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.
For those who may not know, this isn't talking about your physical body. It's talking about the church.
No one person has all the spiritual gifts ( likely Jesus did ). Some of us are hands, some of us are feet, some of us are eyes, and some of us are ears.
What that means is, some of us are teachers, some of us are helpers, some of us are administrators, some of us prophesy, some of us heal people, etc...
No one can be a part of the "body" alone. If you read the passage above, the eye isn't meant to be without the ears, the feet are not meant to be without the hands, and so on and so forth.
If you're living an isolated Christian life, you're not living as Jesus intended the church to be. Of course, there are aged and infirmed people who can't get out, but for everyone else,
we are supposed to be "one body".
Now the body has level levels as well. The body is made up of members. ( verse 12 above )
You are supposed to be a member of the body. There is the "global" body, the whole church of all the believers on the Earth. But you can't possibly know all those people.
So you should be a part of the "local body". A church in your area. It doesn't have to be a formal church building, or even a specific denomination, it just needs to be a group
of people that can pray with you, for you, lift you up, hold you accountable, visit you when you're sick, help you out when you're in need.
We are supposed to hurt when others are hurting, we are supposed to rejoice when others are rejoicing.
Heb 10:24; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
Heb 10:25; not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Even the aged and informed can't do it alone. There are phones, text messaging, and you can always go visit them if you know somebody. Everybody knows someone.
Gen 2:18; Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."
Now that verse is arguably about marriage, and I don't disagree, but even so.. God said it's not good for people to be alone.
Eccl 4:9; Two are better than one because they have a good return for their labor.
Eccl 4:10; For if either of them falls, the one will lift up his companion. But woe to the one who falls when there is not another to lift him up.
Eccl 4:11; Furthermore, if two lie down together they keep warm, but how can one be warm alone?
Eccl 4:12; And if one can overpower him who is alone, two can resist him. A cord of three strands is not quickly torn apart.
1Cor 12:12; For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ.
1Cor 12:13; For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
1Cor 12:14; For the body is not one member, but many.
1Cor 12:15; If the foot says, "Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
1Cor 12:16; And if the ear says, "Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body," it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body.
1Cor 12:17; If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be?
1Cor 12:18; But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired.
1Cor 12:19; If they were all one member, where would the body be?
1Cor 12:20; But now there are many members, but one body.
1Cor 12:21; And the eye cannot say to the hand, "I have no need of you"; or again the head to the feet, "I have no need of you."
1Cor 12:22; On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary;
1Cor 12:23; and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable,
1Cor 12:24; whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked,
1Cor 12:25; so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another.
1Cor 12:26; And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
1Cor 12:27; Now you are Christ's body, and individually members of it.
1Cor 12:28; And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues.
1Cor 12:29; All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they?
1Cor 12:30; All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they?
1Cor 12:31; But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.
For those who may not know, this isn't talking about your physical body. It's talking about the church.
No one person has all the spiritual gifts ( likely Jesus did ). Some of us are hands, some of us are feet, some of us are eyes, and some of us are ears.
What that means is, some of us are teachers, some of us are helpers, some of us are administrators, some of us prophesy, some of us heal people, etc...
No one can be a part of the "body" alone. If you read the passage above, the eye isn't meant to be without the ears, the feet are not meant to be without the hands, and so on and so forth.
If you're living an isolated Christian life, you're not living as Jesus intended the church to be. Of course, there are aged and infirmed people who can't get out, but for everyone else,
we are supposed to be "one body".
Now the body has level levels as well. The body is made up of members. ( verse 12 above )
You are supposed to be a member of the body. There is the "global" body, the whole church of all the believers on the Earth. But you can't possibly know all those people.
So you should be a part of the "local body". A church in your area. It doesn't have to be a formal church building, or even a specific denomination, it just needs to be a group
of people that can pray with you, for you, lift you up, hold you accountable, visit you when you're sick, help you out when you're in need.
We are supposed to hurt when others are hurting, we are supposed to rejoice when others are rejoicing.
Heb 10:24; and let us consider how to stimulate one another to love and good deeds,
Heb 10:25; not forsaking our own assembling together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near.
Even the aged and informed can't do it alone. There are phones, text messaging, and you can always go visit them if you know somebody. Everybody knows someone.
Gen 2:18; Then the LORD God said, "It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him."
Now that verse is arguably about marriage, and I don't disagree, but even so.. God said it's not good for people to be alone.
Eccl 4:9; Two are better than one because they have a good return for their labor.
Eccl 4:10; For if either of them falls, the one will lift up his companion. But woe to the one who falls when there is not another to lift him up.
Eccl 4:11; Furthermore, if two lie down together they keep warm, but how can one be warm alone?
Eccl 4:12; And if one can overpower him who is alone, two can resist him. A cord of three strands is not quickly torn apart.