Glimpses of Heaven

[rojoloco]

So what do you base your theory that "prophecy has ceased" on?

The fact that Scripture says the purpose of the apostles was to lay the foundation. Once a foundation has been laid, there is no more laying it. It is finished. Our foundation is Christ. It will never crumble. To top it off, we have God's complete Word. There is no more divine revelation for if there were, the canon would be open and we would need to add to the Bible. I am quite thankful I can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have the complete inspired Word of God and am not lacking anything.

 

[rojoloco]

I simply cannot connect the moving of the Holy Spirit to murder and it is quite a stretch to make that analogy.
I walked in your theological shoes many years ago as a young saint in a little Baptist Church, so I am not condemning you but I would admonish you to loose your fear of the moving of God's Holy Spirit.
Perhaps some will never understand the difference between the gift of tongues and the prayer language of the Holy Spirit but that will not affect their salvation so it smiply is not worth an argument.
Either way, be blessed

Scripture gives us perfect instruction in how to test something to see if it is truly of the Spirit. What the modern charismatic movement calls tongues is in violation of much of that very instruction.

As for the prayer language theory, this is completely made up byond a shadow of a doubt. Charismatics believe Paul was saying to pray in private when he was actually using sarcasm and hyperbole while rebuking them. In other words, if they couldn't get it right and refused to listen to him, go off and do it in your closet where nobody else can see them screwing up.

 

[jiggyfly]

Scripture gives us perfect instruction in how to test something to see if it is truly of the Spirit. What the modern charismatic movement calls tongues is in violation of much of that very instruction.

As for the prayer language theory, this is completely made up byond a shadow of a doubt. Charismatics believe Paul was saying to pray in private when he was actually using sarcasm and hyperbole while rebuking them. In other words, if they couldn't get it right and refused to listen to him, go off and do it in your closet where nobody else can see them screwing up.

Can you post such scriptures so we all can examine them?

 

[jiggyfly]

The fact that Scripture says the purpose of the apostles was to lay the foundation. Once a foundation has been laid, there is no more laying it. It is finished. Our foundation is Christ. It will never crumble. To top it off, we have God's complete Word. There is no more divine revelation for if there were, the canon would be open and we would need to add to the Bible. I am quite thankful I can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have the complete inspired Word of God and am not lacking anything.

How about some scriptures to support your theory.

 

[Boanerges]

he was actually using sarcasm and hyperbole while rebuking them.

You must have one of those new liberal translations- lol. You now, the ones you can rewrite any way you want.
What you condemn you do not know. I will never say there are no any flakes out there but I will not:
Rewrite the scripture.
Believe critics or religious studies over the Word.
The gifts and praying in the Holy Spirit are quite real and will continue till His return.

 

[rojoloco]

Can you post such scriptures so we all can examine them?

Sure thing. I just spent the last 45 minutes throwing this together for you. Enjoy!

For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

This is not a praise directing people to speak to God in a private prayer language. It is the exact opposite. First of all, we see Paul is telling of the greatness of prophecy because it edifies the Church. Tongues were not meant to do this. TOngues were not even primarily for the believer. They were for the unbeliever's benefit.

So then tongues are for a sign, not to those who believe but to unbelievers;

That sign is clarified in Isaiah 28. The whole purpose of tongues was as a sign of judgment to unbelieving Israel during the transition period of old to new covenant when the Gentiles were being grafted in. It was seen as outlandish that a Gentile would possess anything of God. This was the sign of judgment that 1 Corinthians 13:21 quotes.

BY MEN OF STRANGE TONGUES AND BY THE LIPS OF STRANGERS I WILL SPEAK TO THIS PEOPLE, AND EVEN SO THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO ME

If tongues were meant to be a prayer language, why would Paul so boldly state that they are not for the believer?

Furthermore, let's go back to verse 2. It says that one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Many charismatics take this to mean they can pray to God in a private prayer language that is not meant for men. However, further examination of the text refutes this theory.

It clearly says the man who does this speaks mysteries. He speaks things he does not understand. In a sense, it amounts to futile babbling that he only hopes is making it to God in some cohesive manner on the other end. Also notice that the spirit is speaks of is not the Holy Spirit but rather, the spirit of the man.

One who speaks in a tongue edifies himself; but one who prophesies edifies the church.

This is another one commonly used. Well, let's break it down while we are here. Charismatics make the claim that the private prayer language is meant for self edification and not for others. In verse 22, Paul says tongues are not meant for the believer. This is strike 1. Furthermore, we know that tongues need to be understood in order to have any edifying effect whatsoever. Paul was being sarcastic here. We see sarcasm being used all throughout this epistle such as 4:8-10 and 14:16. The Corinthians desired the "wow" gifts for selfish reasons. There was a sense of satisfaction in them knowing that they had what they thought to be the greater gifts that everyone could see.

But now, brethren, if I come to you speaking in tongues, what will I profit you unless I speak to you either by way of revelation or of knowledge or of prophecy or of teaching?

Unless there was interpretation, there was no profit. If there is no profit, there is no edification. If there is no edification, there is no point.

So also you, since you are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek to abound for the edification of the church.

The Corinthians desired gifts that could astonish. Paul was instructing them to take this zeal and apply it to the edification of the Church instead of toward selfish desires that are not of the Spirit.

For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful. What is the outcome then? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also.

Paul is saying that to pray in tongues as a private prayer language (as they were apparently doing even back then) is in vain. Paul goes so far as to say it is unfruitful. If there is no fruit, there can certainly be no edification. Paul doesn't just leave it as bieng unfruitful for the Church as he differentiates in other passages. He plainly says it is unfruitful period. Unless the one speaking can understand it, there is no fruit. This is because his mind is unfruitful. I've actually heard Charismatics claim that freeing the mind is the goal. Paul says the exact opposite. He does not continue by saying to let your mind run free and pray an unknown tongue to God hoping that He will understand it and edify you. Paul says instead he will pray not only with the spirit but also with the mind. One can only pray with the mind if he understands what he is praying.

Therefore let one who speaks in a tongue pray that he may interpret.

Notice it does not say pray that someone can interpret. It says for the speaker to pray that he can interpret. This was more sarcasm. Paul knew they were speaking gibberish and he challenged them. If they weren't going to stop, at least pray that they can interpret their own nonsense.

but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God.

This is another one used by Charismatics to claim they can pray to God in an unknown private prayer language. I have already given more than enough evidence that there is no such thing as a private prayer language because it is unfruitful, unprofitable, and has no edifying value whatsoever. In turn, the praying to God mentioned in verse 28 can only mean in their own language. If they felt compelled to speak in tongues but there was no interpreter, instead let that man remain quiet and pray to God with value in his own language.

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed";

Many Charismatics say that they have experienced it so it can't be false. Well, the above verse should refute this in full. Apparently, some were claiming to speak in the Spirit yet they were saying, "Jesus is accursed." In the same manner, just because someone has claimed to experience the gift of tongues does not mean it is valid if it is outside of the framework of Scripture and goes against the very rebukes of Paul.

 

[rojoloco]

You must have one of those new liberal translations- lol. You now, the ones you can rewrite any way you want.
What you condemn you do not know. I will never say there are no any flakes out there but I will not:
Rewrite the scripture.
Believe critics or religious studies over the Word.
The gifts and praying in the Holy Spirit are quite real and will continue till His return.

I hate to break it to you but in the instance, you are not following God's Word. You are following only about the last 108 years. Tongues were really a non-issue (with a few exceptions) in all of history until January 1, 1901 and even then, it was brought up during an experiment that has no documentation other than the word of a few individuals who took part.

 

[jiggyfly]

1 Corinthians 14:2
For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries.

Originally Posted by
This is not a praise directing people to speak to God in a private prayer language. It is the exact opposite. First of all, we see Paul is telling of the greatness of prophecy because it edifies the Church. Tongues were not meant to do this. TOngues were not even primarily for the believer. They were for the unbeliever's benefit.

So speaking to God is bad then eh?

 

[jiggyfly]

I hate to break it to you but in the instance, you are not following God's Word. You are following only about the last 108 years. Tongues were really a non-issue (with a few exceptions) in all of history until January 1, 1901 and even then, it was brought up during an experiment that has no documentation other than the word of a few individuals who took part.

I disagree I think it is you who is not following the scriptures but rather religious tradition and teaching.

 

[jiggyfly]

Originally Posted by 1 Corinthians 12:3
Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus is accursed";
Many Charismatics say that they have experienced it so it can't be false. Well, the above verse should refute this in full. Apparently, some were claiming to speak in the Spirit yet they were saying, "Jesus is accursed." In the same manner, just because someone has claimed to experience the gift of tongues does not mean it is valid if it is outside of the framework of Scripture and goes against the very rebukes of Paul.

Rojo your are very twisted in your interpretation of scripture. This absolutely ludicrous:weirdo:

 

[jiggyfly]

Sure thing. I just spent the last 45 minutes throwing this together for you. Enjoy!



This is not a praise directing people to speak to God in a private prayer language. It is the exact opposite. First of all, we see Paul is telling of the greatness of prophecy because it edifies the Church. Tongues were not meant to do this. TOngues were not even primarily for the believer. They were for the unbeliever's benefit.



That sign is clarified in Isaiah 28. The whole purpose of tongues was as a sign of judgment to unbelieving Israel during the transition period of old to new covenant when the Gentiles were being grafted in. It was seen as outlandish that a Gentile would possess anything of God. This was the sign of judgment that 1 Corinthians 13:21 quotes.



If tongues were meant to be a prayer language, why would Paul so boldly state that they are not for the believer?

Furthermore, let's go back to verse 2. It says that one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God. Many charismatics take this to mean they can pray to God in a private prayer language that is not meant for men. However, further examination of the text refutes this theory.

It clearly says the man who does this speaks mysteries. He speaks things he does not understand. In a sense, it amounts to futile babbling that he only hopes is making it to God in some cohesive manner on the other end. Also notice that the spirit is speaks of is not the Holy Spirit but rather, the spirit of the man.



This is another one commonly used. Well, let's break it down while we are here. Charismatics make the claim that the private prayer language is meant for self edification and not for others. In verse 22, Paul says tongues are not meant for the believer. This is strike 1. Furthermore, we know that tongues need to be understood in order to have any edifying effect whatsoever. Paul was being sarcastic here. We see sarcasm being used all throughout this epistle such as 4:8-10 and 14:16. The Corinthians desired the "wow" gifts for selfish reasons. There was a sense of satisfaction in them knowing that they had what they thought to be the greater gifts that everyone could see.



Unless there was interpretation, there was no profit. If there is no profit, there is no edification. If there is no edification, there is no point.



The Corinthians desired gifts that could astonish. Paul was instructing them to take this zeal and apply it to the edification of the Church instead of toward selfish desires that are not of the Spirit.



Paul is saying that to pray in tongues as a private prayer language (as they were apparently doing even back then) is in vain. Paul goes so far as to say it is unfruitful. If there is no fruit, there can certainly be no edification. Paul doesn't just leave it as bieng unfruitful for the Church as he differentiates in other passages. He plainly says it is unfruitful period. Unless the one speaking can understand it, there is no fruit. This is because his mind is unfruitful. I've actually heard Charismatics claim that freeing the mind is the goal. Paul says the exact opposite. He does not continue by saying to let your mind run free and pray an unknown tongue to God hoping that He will understand it and edify you. Paul says instead he will pray not only with the spirit but also with the mind. One can only pray with the mind if he understands what he is praying.



Notice it does not say pray that someone can interpret. It says for the speaker to pray that he can interpret. This was more sarcasm. Paul knew they were speaking gibberish and he challenged them. If they weren't going to stop, at least pray that they can interpret their own nonsense.



This is another one used by Charismatics to claim they can pray to God in an unknown private prayer language. I have already given more than enough evidence that there is no such thing as a private prayer language because it is unfruitful, unprofitable, and has no edifying value whatsoever. In turn, the praying to God mentioned in verse 28 can only mean in their own language. If they felt compelled to speak in tongues but there was no interpreter, instead let that man remain quiet and pray to God with value in his own language.



Many Charismatics say that they have experienced it so it can't be false. Well, the above verse should refute this in full. Apparently, some were claiming to speak in the Spirit yet they were saying, "Jesus is accursed." In the same manner, just because someone has claimed to experience the gift of tongues does not mean it is valid if it is outside of the framework of Scripture and goes against the very rebukes of Paul.

Thanks for the laughs Crazyred:laugh:

 

[Boanerges]

While that was entertaining it is an complete exaggeration of Paul's point.
There is both scriptural basis and historical evidence dating back to the very beginnings of the church.
It is not necessary to fear what God gives.

1Co 14:18 I thank my God, I speak with tongues more than ye all:

That verse was given by the Apostle Paul. He indeed practiced and enjoyed tongues.

1Co 14:14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful.
1Co 14:15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also.

What is Paul saying here? Obviously he is not dissing tongues in verse 14 and then condoning them in verse 15. Instead he is making a point that praying in the Spirit is not for public edification.



Rom 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
Rom 8:27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

So if we pray in the spirit but do not necessarily have an understanding, the Holy Spirit knows what to pray.

Jud 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,


Eph 6:18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

 

[Boanerges]

I hate to break it to you but in the instance, you are not following God's Word. You are following only about the last 108 years. Tongues were really a non-issue (with a few exceptions) in all of history until January 1, 1901 and even then, it was brought up during an experiment that has no documentation other than the word of a few individuals who took part.

I hate to break it to you but I just posted 500 years of early church history in which tongues were in major use. While it is true that the gifts were suppressed by religion taking over the church for many centuries the Spirit of God is once again moving on open hearts.
No my friend, it is you that seem to take every verse out of context in order to push your doctrine.
One quick question,and no pun intended, are you born again?

 

[rojoloco]

While that was entertaining it is an complete exaggeration of Paul's point.
There is both scriptural basis and historical evidence dating back to the very beginnings of the church.

There is evidence of them dating back to the beginning of the Church however, even before Scripture was completed, there was evidence of them having ceased. As for after the completion of Scripture, historical evidence is few and far between as the norm was the belief that they had ceased.

That verse was given by the Apostle Paul. He indeed practiced and enjoyed tongues.

He did speak in tongues. The difference is that he spoke in them properly and not the counterfeited version.

What is Paul saying here? Obviously he is not dissing tongues in verse 14 and then condoning them in verse 15. Instead he is making a point that praying in the Spirit is not for public edification.

Have you noticed in the Greek, the 2 are different. One is singular while the other is plural. It seems the KJV translators caught this as well because every case of the singular, they insert the word "unknown" before tongue. In the plural, they simply refer to it as tongues. This is because there is only one kind of gibberish while there are many actual languages (which was what the authentic gift of tongues was).

So if we pray in the spirit but do not necessarily have an understanding, the Holy Spirit knows what to pray.

I fail to see how Charismatics draw this conclusion. Paul calls it unfruitful to pray without understanding. In turn, he says he always prays with understanding.

Scripture tells us that God hears the prayers of those who pray in accordance with His Will. The only way to properly do this is to have the Holy Spirit lead our prayers by leading our heart. That is all Romans is telling us in the passage you gave. If we do not know how to pray (as none of us do without the Spirit), the Spirit makes intercession for us. The Spirit prays on our behalf in inexpressible groanings that are inaudible. This is not a prayer of man because if he does not know what he is saying, it is unfruitful and unprofitable.

I hate to break it to you but I just posted 500 years of early church history in which tongues were in major use. While it is true that the gifts were suppressed by religion taking over the church for many centuries the Spirit of God is once again moving on open hearts.
No my friend, it is you that seem to take every verse out of context in order to push your doctrine.

You posted a few individuals throughout history who pushed an idea that the majority of early writers had no experience. It just recently became a big movement within the last 108 years.

 

[rojoloco]

Rojo your are very twisted in your interpretation of scripture. This absolutely ludicrous:weirdo:

Are you claiming nobody in the Corinthians church was saying these things? If so, Paul must have been lying.

 

[rojoloco]

So speaking to God is bad then eh?

It is when the person does not understand what they are saying to Him. Paul tells us this is unfruitful. Do we dare go to God in a vain, fruitless manner with unintelligible babbling? I certainly do not.

 

[rojoloco]

I disagree I think it is you who is not following the scriptures but rather religious tradition and teaching.

This is the problem with a lot of Charismatics. They tend to feel they are above the rest because the Spirit has given them something special that nobody else has due to some fault or another. It is almost as if the Charismatic movement feel to be elite and enlightened over the rest despite being outside of the very teaching in Scripture. IMHO, Catholics have to twist Scripture to match their doctrines while Charismatics do the exact same thing. Instead of conforming their doctrines and experiences to Scripture, they do the opposite.

 

[jiggyfly]

The fact that Scripture says the purpose of the apostles was to lay the foundation. Once a foundation has been laid, there is no more laying it. It is finished. Our foundation is Christ. It will never crumble. To top it off, we have God's complete Word. There is no more divine revelation for if there were, the canon would be open and we would need to add to the Bible. I am quite thankful I can know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I have the complete inspired Word of God and am not lacking anything.

What scripture states that prophecy and tongues have ceased?

 

[jiggyfly]

This is the problem with a lot of Charismatics. They tend to feel they are above the rest because the Spirit has given them something special that nobody else has due to some fault or another. It is almost as if the Charismatic movement feel to be elite and enlightened over the rest despite being outside of the very teaching in Scripture. IMHO, Catholics have to twist Scripture to match their doctrines while Charismatics do the exact same thing. Instead of conforming their doctrines and experiences to Scripture, they do the opposite.

I won't say that some charismatics haven't acted that way but in my experiences it was those who share your opinion on tongues who had the poor behavior and acted like they were in the right.


Over the years I witnessed hundreds of people that had been taught the same false teaching as the one you are propagating here get baptized in HolySpirit and speak in tongues.


How about you answer the question in my last post and we start over and examine each scripture.

 

[Veracity]

But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
‘ And it shall come to pass in the last days, says God,
That I will pour out of My Spirit on all flesh;
Your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
Your young men shall see visions,
Your old men shall dream dreams.
And on My menservants and on My maidservants
I will pour out My Spirit in those days;
And they shall prophesy.


Hmmm....wonder what this is all about. Guess the last days are all past.