Glimpses of Heaven

[rojoloco]

I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago--whether in the body I do not know, or out of the body I do not know, God knows--such a man was caught up to the third heaven. And I know how such a man--whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, God knows--was caught up into Paradise and heard inexpressible words, which a man is not permitted to speak.

There are many books, stories, and TV specials about people who claim they saw a glimpse of Heaven. Some even claim to have seen more than a glimpse. I am convinced of the following:

1) They are all fake
2) If any were in fact true, the person would be sinning by speaking of it

2 Corinthians 12 tells us of Paul being shown a glimpse of Heaven 14 years prior to ever even speaking of it for the first time. Even when he did speak of it, he told us that he heard things that no man is permitted to speak of. That alone tells us that every single book that claims to reveal Heaven (other than what is in Scripture) is breaking God's own law.

On top of that, most of the stories tend to lean on the side of people being revealed all sorts of things and being in a state of amazement while taking it all in. What does Scripture say?

In the year of King Uzziah's death I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, lofty and exalted, with the train of His robe filling the temple. Seraphim stood above Him, each having six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew.

And one called out to another and said,
"Holy, Holy, Holy, is the LORD of hosts,
The whole earth is full of His glory."

Why is it that people claim they were wandering around or being shown this and that when even Isaiah only saw the Lord being glorifed. To add to it:

Then I said,
"Woe is me, for I am ruined!
Because I am a man of unclean lips,
And I live among a people of unclean lips;
For my eyes have seen the King, the LORD of hosts."

Isaiah was in the presence of God but he was not taking notes or being shown anything. He was quaking with fear. His entire vision is God being the center of all things, God being glorified, and Isaiah wanting to pee his pants so to speak.

As the appearance of the rainbow in the clouds on a rainy day, so was the appearance of the surrounding radiance Such was the appearance of the likeness of the glory of the LORD And when I saw it, I fell on my face and heard a voice speaking.

Ezekiel had a very similar experience. It may be more detailed but take note (if you read the rest of chapter 1) that it all described God as being the centerpiece.

In no instance of Scripture does one have a tour guide to show them around Heaven. Why is it that so many people are attracted to this kind of nonsense being spit out in the media today?

The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but the things revealed belong to us and to our sons forever, that we may observe all the words of this law.

I am a firm believer in the sufficiency of Scripture. I do not believe God is still giving new revelation. I believe that once Scripture was completed, all revelation ceased. Everything that is being revealed to us today is being done so by the Holy Spirit through existing Scripture. If this is the case, Deuteronomy clearly says the secret things belong to the Lord. If God did not reveal them to us through Scripture, He is not doing it today.

 

[stephen]

I am a 5 point Calvinist and believe that I am saved by the grace of God alone as I, a wretched sinner, have no ability within me to save.
Country

Who was Calvin....a wretched sinner similar to you or I. You say correctly that you have no ability within you to save.......like the rest of us.

We sang a Wesley hymn in our fellowship this Sunday a.m. the hymn commenced with a question "And can it be that I should gain an interest in the Savious blood.........? There is a line in the hymn "and bled for Adams helpless race" wow This is Jesus......this is the price Jesus He paid.......Salvation is all about Jesus

5 point Calviist......dear Lord such connection is of no value,

You are posting here in the bible study forum. But have you met Jesus......I notice you are a serviceman and 'saved' we appreciate you in that respect....and we thank you.

 

[StopPolloition]

Isaiah was in the presence of God but he was not taking notes or being shown anything. He was quaking with fear. His entire vision is God being the center of all things, God being glorified, and Isaiah wanting to pee his pants so to speak.

I second your point and your suspicions as well. In every scriptural instance when people have encounters with God or one of his angel emissaries the effect is the same, a disabling terror. I don't think it a stretch to say that Daniel and John slipped into comas in their encounters.

This is a general lesson on our approach to the presence of God. If churchgoers had this same reverence....my, the impact.

Nevertheless the Mary Baxters of the world, I believe have a negative net impact on Christian thought and lend heavily to a notion that scripture was not enough- that the Lord needs his word AND some silly book about a trip to heaven. :shade:

 

[rojoloco]

Who was Calvin....a wretched sinner similar to you or I. You say correctly that you have no ability within you to save.......like the rest of us.

We sang a Wesley hymn in our fellowship this Sunday a.m. the hymn commenced with a question "And can it be that I should gain an interest in the Savious blood.........? There is a line in the hymn "and bled for Adams helpless race" wow This is Jesus......this is the price Jesus He paid.......Salvation is all about Jesus

5 point Calviist......dear Lord such connection is of no value,

You are posting here in the bible study forum. But have you met Jesus......I notice you are a serviceman and 'saved' we appreciate you in that respect....and we thank you.

I'm honestly a bit confused here. I don't really see how this relates to the topic at hand. It sounds more like anti-Calvinism that is trying to read more into it than what is there. Correct me if I am wrong.

My statement (in my profile) that I am a Calvinist that believes I am a wretched sinner that is saved by grace alone is an entirely different subject. I simply made the correlation because many people try to take salvation into their own hands and away from God. This is the case with most Arminians. As a Calvinist, it is pretty apparent that I do not attribute myself with any worthiness whatsoever. One does not have to be a Calvinist to believe this but if one is, they will believe it.

Anyway, just wanted to comment. I still don't know how it relates to this thread though.

 

[jiggyfly]

So rojo, do you accept John's writing of Revelation?

 

[rojoloco]

So rojo, do you accept John's writing of Revelation?

Of course I do. It is God's Holy Word. However, I do not believe prophets exist anymore. They ended upon the foundation of the Church which was laid upon the foundation of apostles and prophets with Christ being the chief cornerstone. Revelation is the end of prophecy from God. It closed out an office by fulfilling its purpose. The people who make these claims today are not prophets of God. They have not been given divine revelation from God. They can't even be compared to John.

 

[jiggyfly]

Of course I do. It is God's Holy Word. However, I do not believe prophets exist anymore. They ended upon the foundation of the Church which was laid upon the foundation of apostles and prophets with Christ being the chief cornerstone. Revelation is the end of prophecy from God. It closed out an office by fulfilling its purpose. The people who make these claims today are not prophets of God. They have not been given divine revelation from God. They can't even be compared to John.

Am I correct to assume that you don't believe that the "gifts of the Spirit are still at work within the body of Christ also?

 

[Boanerges]

Of course I do. It is God's Holy Word. However, I do not believe prophets exist anymore. They ended upon the foundation of the Church which was laid upon the foundation of apostles and prophets with Christ being the chief cornerstone. Revelation is the end of prophecy from God. It closed out an office by fulfilling its purpose. The people who make these claims today are not prophets of God. They have not been given divine revelation from God. They can't even be compared to John.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:


Just my view:
I understand there are some in certain denominations that share your views. I respect your right to your own opinons.
For the fivefold ministry to cease the church would have to walk in the fullness of the stature of Christ Himself. Personally I know of no church (let alone the whole body of Christ) that meets that criteria as of yet.
As for visions of heaven, I know two people who claim to have had such an experience. I know them as solid Christians who lay their lives down for Jesus on a regular basis. So just in my opinion I will have to take their word on it.
While it is true that some revelations of and from heaven were locked up till a later date that is not true of them all. Trying to include them all is a real stretch and as jiggyfly has mentioned would remove the Book of Revelations as well as many other prophecies from the Bible.

 

[denise04]

fake?

for the ones of you that dont believe, i saw jesus when i was young with my own eyes, ive also saw angels, if god allows this this is for a reason, noone cant tell me what i saw. i was awake god bless..

 

[sister]

Amen!!

for the ones of you that dont believe, i saw jesus when i was young with my own eyes, ive also saw angels, if god allows this this is for a reason, noone cant tell me what i saw. i was awake god bless..

Amen Denise!!I have also seen such things and so have many of my chr friends!!I know 2 Pastors that have been taken to Heaven and one also has recently seen Hell!!They are both mighty men of God!!and if God is the same,yeaterday and forever then so are his gifts of the HS and of showing people,ordinary people,things that he wants to bless them with!!Who are we to say they are not true,especially if we know beyond the shadow of a doubt that they are walking with God and are serving them in powerful miracle,signs,and wonders ministries!!So..people need to be more open to the fact that our God is a supernatural God and that there is the spiritual realm also where the battles of angels and demons happen!!If there are angels there sure are demons also!!People dont like to hear about that reality!!Well GBU!!

 

[RJ]

So, let me get this right crazy red:

John of Patmos saw heaven and talked to Jesus Christ and wrote the book of Revelation, He was not a fake?
St. Paul was a well know Seer of his time and saw many aspects of heaven, He was not a fake?

Seers where common in the ancient days, you are saying just because they were not in the Bible, that they were all fake?

 

[rojoloco]

Am I correct to assume that you don't believe that the "gifts of the Spirit are still at work within the body of Christ also?

I most certainly do. However, I also realize that not all the gifts were given with an eternal purpose in mind. We can know this because Scripture speaks of certain gifts being done away with at the coming of the perfect. If we look closer, we can also see it says some gifts will already be gone before the coming of the perfect. Many will last all the way up until that point but some will be gone before then. It takes a proper understanding of each gift and not just lumping them all into one.

 

[rojoloco]

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

For the fivefold ministry to cease the church would have to walk in the fullness of the stature of Christ Himself. Personally I know of no church (let alone the whole body of Christ) that meets that criteria as of yet.

I have heard this reasoning time and time again. However, this does not say that all of these will be around until unity in faith and perfection. It simply says that God gives gifts and will continue to do so until then. In fact, it is no coincidence that those 5 are listed together. Apostles and prophets were replaced by evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Apostles and prophets had a specific purpose in the early church. Evangelists, pastors, and teachers have a specific ongoing purpose even in the present age. I am actually writing a book on theology and this is one of the chapters I am writing about.

 

[rojoloco]

So, let me get this right crazy red:

John of Patmos saw heaven and talked to Jesus Christ and wrote the book of Revelation, He was not a fake?
St. Paul was a well know Seer of his time and saw many aspects of heaven, He was not a fake?

Seers where common in the ancient days, you are saying just because they were not in the Bible, that they were all fake?

You are forgetting something. There were actual prophets of God and then there were Satanic counterfeits. The actual gifting of prophecy has ceased to exist. It ceased upon the completion of Scripture. To say otherwise is to say the canon is open, God is still giving divine revelation, and Scripture needs to be added to. While the genuine gift has ceased, the Satanic counterfeiting continues in the present day. Jeremiah says the heart is deceitful above all else and desperately wicked. Many of the "revelations" people claim to have in this day are tied to emotion. It doesn't surprise me that Satan deceives countless Christians through this method.

 

[jiggyfly]

I most certainly do. However, I also realize that not all the gifts were given with an eternal purpose in mind. We can know this because Scripture speaks of certain gifts being done away with at the coming of the perfect. If we look closer, we can also see it says some gifts will already be gone before the coming of the perfect. Many will last all the way up until that point but some will be gone before then. It takes a proper understanding of each gift and not just lumping them all into one.

Absolutely but "the perfect" is probably where we disagree. There is no scriptural evidence to support that "the perfect" is referring to the bible. I consider this a false teaching of man.

We also note that there are two prophets yet to be heard in the end times according to the book of Revelation.

Rev 11:10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.

As far as the five ministry gifts listed in Ephesians, there is no scriptural support for some to stop and others continue, context is very important. If one has stopped than all have stopped. The same is true with the gifts of the HolySpirit. Much has been posted on this very topic here at TJ. You might want to read over them.

 

[jiggyfly]

I have heard this reasoning time and time again. However, this does not say that all of these will be around until unity in faith and perfection. It simply says that God gives gifts and will continue to do so until then. In fact, it is no coincidence that those 5 are listed together. Apostles and prophets were replaced by evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Apostles and prophets had a specific purpose in the early church. Evangelists, pastors, and teachers have a specific ongoing purpose even in the present age. I am actually writing a book on theology and this is one of the chapters I am writing about.

Do you by chance have any scripture to support your opinion here?

 

[jiggyfly]

You are forgetting something. There were actual prophets of God and then there were Satanic counterfeits. The actual gifting of prophecy has ceased to exist. It ceased upon the completion of Scripture. To say otherwise is to say the canon is open, God is still giving divine revelation, and Scripture needs to be added to. While the genuine gift has ceased, the Satanic counterfeiting continues in the present day. Jeremiah says the heart is deceitful above all else and desperately wicked. Many of the "revelations" people claim to have in this day are tied to emotion. It doesn't surprise me that Satan deceives countless Christians through this method.

Again this is lacking any clear scriptural support. Yes many of the teachings and understandings that people hold to today are religious and carnal and some are demonic, I agree. But many of the teachings that limit HolySpirit's gifting in the body are tied to carnal emotion and ignorance also.

I think it is absolutely foolish to listen to anyone teach the "true meaning of the gift of speaking in tongues" who has never had the experience. I look at it the same way as some one trying to critique a book they haven't read, a movie they haven't watched, or a food they haven't tasted.

 

[Boanerges]

I have heard this reasoning time and time again. However, this does not say that all of these will be around until unity in faith and perfection. It simply says that God gives gifts and will continue to do so until then. In fact, it is no coincidence that those 5 are listed together. Apostles and prophets were replaced by evangelists, pastors, and teachers. Apostles and prophets had a specific purpose in the early church. Evangelists, pastors, and teachers have a specific ongoing purpose even in the present age. I am actually writing a book on theology and this is one of the chapters I am writing about.

Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Obviously you need to reread that verse because it says exactly that. Liberal theology nor reinterpretation cannot change that. First He describes what He is giving , what it is for and then He tells us for how long. There is absolutely no mention of replacing one with the other. It is no wonder that the body is lacking when some parts reject the very offices He established while others reject the gifts (power) He gave (some reject both). So they have not the edification nor the power and yet they still claim the fruit. Lord help us to understand Your Word through Your eyes.

 

[RJ]

I is amusing how we try to paint God into a corner, we are so vain!
Since there is no limit to God, I can see that there is no limits to His Spiritual gifts to man.
I am convinced of this,God is limitless how He performs His works through man and His Spiritual Gifts are probably therefore limitless.
It just like St. Paul's comment about sin, that "everything is permissable but everything is not profitable". I would like to think he would probably say that about Spiritual Gifts, It you think that you have a Spiritual Gift but, it is not profitable, then is this from God?...I think Not.
Take "Speaking in Tongues". I don't do it but, I been exposed to it many times in my life. The Bible is very clear about it , if there is no one to translate it is false. From my exposure, I never heard are saw anyone interpretate; it was nothing but gibberish to me and every one around me...looks to me that those acountings were not profitable and therefore false. For the most part, I see no reason for speaking in tongues today where language is not the barrier that it was in St. Pauls day; especially if the account doesn't abide by the devine rules. But does that say that this gift can't be used by God for His purpose, hardly not!
Spiritual Gifts are God's way of communicating the gospel of his Son and I can't believe my Omnipotent Lord is handicapped to what gifts He can give today. These gifts today are limitless!
Blessings

 

[jiggyfly]

The Bible is very clear about it , if there is no one to translate it is false.

Are you sure that scripture states such?