DeeperStill
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Please tell me if man , or God moves first after you read this verse.
John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
T
free will
- Thread starter dchena
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Please tell me if man , or God moves first after you read this verse.
John 6:44
"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.
T
reply
It is up to man to respond to God's plan by the confession of his mouth in faith. If man rejects Christ after being saved, then he loses it forever. Heb. 6:4-6 gives us the conditions for this to happen. One is that he must be a mature Christian, spirit-filled, do it publically, and so forth.
Peace, Golfjack:shade:
It is up to man to respond to God's plan by the confession of his mouth in faith. If man rejects Christ after being saved, then he loses it forever. Heb. 6:4-6 gives us the conditions for this to happen. One is that he must be a mature Christian, spirit-filled, do it publically, and so forth.
Peace, Golfjack:shade:
DeeperStill
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A wise man told me, " if a person believes they can lose their salvation, in his mind he probably can and he will be like every other babe in christ who never eats meat. He will be constantly losing, getting, losing, getting, hanging Jesus upon the cross over and over. There will be no peace of mind. No peace of the Holy Spirit. If a person believes he cannot, in his heart he is at peace because his faith is fully upon God's sustaining grace."
My God seems to be bigger than yours. Mine is able, yours does not appear to be.
T
FINI
Gracealone
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[QUOTEIt is up to man to respond to God's plan by the confession of his mouth in faith. If man rejects Christ after being saved, then he loses it forever. Heb. 6:4-6 gives us the conditions for this to happen. One is that he must be a mature Christian, spirit-filled, do it publically, and so forth.
QUOTE]
Hebrews 6:4-6 is a hypothetical evaluation of an impossible act.
It is saying ,in context, that if it were possible for a person to lose their salvation, it would then be impossible to repent for they would have to crucify Christ all over again....
.It goes on to say in Hebrews 6: 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things accompanying salvation, though we thus speak.
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work, and labor of love etc..... He is extorting these believers to press on to maturity.
Read all the chapter in this light ,and you will see he is saying one thing to show the truth of the opposite.
The Bible says ; He is able to keep us from falling, and in another place it says for I know whom I have believed ,and am persuaded That he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him, against that day.
May Gods spirit open understanding of these vrs. and the truth come forth.
We are kept by the power of God.
Our choice was to say yes to our Lord, and he gave us the gift of eternal life.
No true child of God will ever turn away.
There are those who will stand before the Lord at the judgment, and they will say, But Lord we have done all these things in thy name, and he will say, "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I NEVER knew you." They were never saved.
Matt. 7:23
QUOTE]
Hebrews 6:4-6 is a hypothetical evaluation of an impossible act.
It is saying ,in context, that if it were possible for a person to lose their salvation, it would then be impossible to repent for they would have to crucify Christ all over again....
.It goes on to say in Hebrews 6: 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things accompanying salvation, though we thus speak.
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work, and labor of love etc..... He is extorting these believers to press on to maturity.
Read all the chapter in this light ,and you will see he is saying one thing to show the truth of the opposite.
The Bible says ; He is able to keep us from falling, and in another place it says for I know whom I have believed ,and am persuaded That he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him, against that day.
May Gods spirit open understanding of these vrs. and the truth come forth.
We are kept by the power of God.
Our choice was to say yes to our Lord, and he gave us the gift of eternal life.
No true child of God will ever turn away.
There are those who will stand before the Lord at the judgment, and they will say, But Lord we have done all these things in thy name, and he will say, "Depart from me ye workers of iniquity, I NEVER knew you." They were never saved.
Matt. 7:23
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Gracealone, You said Heb. 6:4-6 is hypothetical. I think it a warning for Christiians. If it is a warning, I must conclude it is possible for Christians to lose their salvation. But, I don't really think this happens that much. Therefore, as I never preach this in my own Church, I think we should let this OSAS doctrine be put to rest, as we just don't agree. But, I believe non-believers and Believers do have free will. :friends:
Peace, Golfjack
Gracealone, You said Heb. 6:4-6 is hypothetical. I think it a warning for Christiians. If it is a warning, I must conclude it is possible for Christians to lose their salvation. But, I don't really think this happens that much. Therefore, as I never preach this in my own Church, I think we should let this OSAS doctrine be put to rest, as we just don't agree. But, I believe non-believers and Believers do have free will. :friends:
Peace, Golfjack
DeeperStill
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I believe you are mature and reasonable enough to see that my mother was speaking of your understanding of Heb 6 as being hypocritical. She gave you the reasons why.
Just as you misunderstand Heb 6, you have misunderstood her post.
I do agree with you on ending this discussion because the bottom line is this... until the Holy Spirit shows you the correct understanding of the Word, you will never learn.
More posts about the subject will not produce clarity in your misunderstanding.
FINI
Gracealone
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You lost me there golfjack, I don't know what a OSAS doctrine is?
I'm just saying that was written as an illustration that the truth of what he is saying is just the opposite.....you cannot lose your salvation, for if you could you would have to crucify Christ all over again to be saved again.....
We know that is not true, for he is in heaven making intercession for us.
And he has promised that , Neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 8: 38 Romans 8:39.....
:lightbulb:thumbs_upreply
Consider 1 John 5:16. What is this sin leading to death? Why are not to pray? Notice, it says sin, and not sins. I suggest this sin is the unpardonable sin, which cannot be forgiven. Grace, you said we can't put Jesus on the cross again. You have proved my point. You can't. This sin cannot be forgiven, and condemns a person who committs this sin to eternal death.
Peace, Golfjack
Consider 1 John 5:16. What is this sin leading to death? Why are not to pray? Notice, it says sin, and not sins. I suggest this sin is the unpardonable sin, which cannot be forgiven. Grace, you said we can't put Jesus on the cross again. You have proved my point. You can't. This sin cannot be forgiven, and condemns a person who committs this sin to eternal death.
Peace, Golfjack
DeeperStill
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I am not surprised at all now. I see your misunderstanding continues. This time its on the "Unpardonable Sin". But I am going to start a different thread on that one.
Keep your eyes out for it sometime today.
T
Keep your eyes out for it sometime today.
T
Gracealone
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Will keep watch for it....but until then, this ole gal has to speak her heart! LOL
The only unforgivable sin is to reject the drawing of the Holy Spirit, doing despite to his name.
When we say No! to his drawing us to him, then we are condemned already.
That may be simplistic, but true. Luke 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
The only unforgivable sin is to reject the drawing of the Holy Spirit, doing despite to his name.
When we say No! to his drawing us to him, then we are condemned already.
That may be simplistic, but true. Luke 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
Gracealone
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Very simple, this is talking about physical death,to believers, not spiritual, but can also simply be saying ,There is a sin unto death.
And there is.
1John 5:16 is talking to believers, but his reference to a sin unto death, is not saying we can,(unto spiritual death) but that there is one.
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. (That's a promise)
There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. Unbelief
In light of other scripture which assure us of eternal life, like "no man can pluck them out of my hand...." which means me ... then this has to be physical death , not spiritual.
And I am not a Baptist as such, I am a Christian, and I know that He is able, to keep that which I have committed unto him, against that day.
My confidence is in him, not my ability.
PS: what is wrong with a typical Baptist belief?
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:shade:I conclude that you guys don't believe a believer have free will. Well, I don't believe everything that John McArthur has to say about the topic of free will or God's Sovergnity either, which to me is watered down Calvinism. So, I guess it's a matter of interpretation. :shade:
Peace, Golfjack
:shade:I conclude that you guys don't believe a believer have free will. Well, I don't believe everything that John McArthur has to say about the topic of free will or God's Sovergnity either, which to me is watered down Calvinism. So, I guess it's a matter of interpretation. :shade:
Peace, Golfjack
Gracealone
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Its a matter of whether you believe what Gods says, or not.....no other matters.
I don't even know what Calvinist ,or preterits, or whatever else there is contrary to Gods word says, but seek to know him through his word. I don't worry about what John McArthur believes either, but seek to know Jesus, and his way, alone.
The Bible says, Search the scriptures daily, for in them ye think you have eternal life, and they are they which tell of me.
Jesus, The way, the truth, and the life.
No man comes to the Father,but by him.
I think if we spent more time searching the scripture and bringing our wills into subjection to his will, we would then find, we as Christians being in unity of the Spirit, as we should be, instead of what I witness in many of these site's.
I came here for fellowship with believers in Christ, and right off from my first post, have been under attack for my faith.
I'd say there is something drastically wrong with that picture....:embarasse
I am embarrassed, for we bring dishonor to the name of our Lord, and confusion to the hearts, and eyes of the world.
May God forgive us, for we know not what we do.
Prayerfully, somewhere between the lines, love and growth will endure, and we come out the other side wiser, and better equipped to spread the true gospel.
That Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom, I am chief.
I don't even know what Calvinist ,or preterits, or whatever else there is contrary to Gods word says, but seek to know him through his word. I don't worry about what John McArthur believes either, but seek to know Jesus, and his way, alone.
The Bible says, Search the scriptures daily, for in them ye think you have eternal life, and they are they which tell of me.
Jesus, The way, the truth, and the life.
No man comes to the Father,but by him.
I think if we spent more time searching the scripture and bringing our wills into subjection to his will, we would then find, we as Christians being in unity of the Spirit, as we should be, instead of what I witness in many of these site's.
I came here for fellowship with believers in Christ, and right off from my first post, have been under attack for my faith.
I'd say there is something drastically wrong with that picture....:embarasse
I am embarrassed, for we bring dishonor to the name of our Lord, and confusion to the hearts, and eyes of the world.
May God forgive us, for we know not what we do.
Prayerfully, somewhere between the lines, love and growth will endure, and we come out the other side wiser, and better equipped to spread the true gospel.
That Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom, I am chief.
reply
Grace, I am sorry if I offended you. You sure you have studied your Bible, and really have been refreshing. We come from different backgrounds. Many Christians leave their Churches because they get offended, but the Bible warns us of offenses. My background is one of being taught by at Rhema Bible Inst. To me my teacher was one of the greatest teachers of the Word in the last hundred years. But it really saddens when some have called him the anti-christ. For sure, we all have differences of opinion. I believe the Body of Christ needs to be shaken up. My wish is for a Book of Acts Church, A Word, and Holy Ghost Church. One big problems is that many are way too mind led. It should be Spirit led, where the Spirit speaks to our spirits.
I encourage you to lead people out of darkness, and lead then into the Light of our Lord.
Peace, Golfjack
Grace, I am sorry if I offended you. You sure you have studied your Bible, and really have been refreshing. We come from different backgrounds. Many Christians leave their Churches because they get offended, but the Bible warns us of offenses. My background is one of being taught by at Rhema Bible Inst. To me my teacher was one of the greatest teachers of the Word in the last hundred years. But it really saddens when some have called him the anti-christ. For sure, we all have differences of opinion. I believe the Body of Christ needs to be shaken up. My wish is for a Book of Acts Church, A Word, and Holy Ghost Church. One big problems is that many are way too mind led. It should be Spirit led, where the Spirit speaks to our spirits.
I encourage you to lead people out of darkness, and lead then into the Light of our Lord.
Peace, Golfjack
DeeperStill
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when it comes to your understanding of God's word golfjack, when was the last time you changed your previous understanding of a thing to something else. Can you honestly say you are teachable ? Can you honestly say you are open to hearing from the Holy Spirit on this issue or are you just following a man made theology?
I ponder your name dropping of the Rhema Bible institute , or any Man-made organization as if doing so is your way of validating your own understanding.
RBI, is in gross error
please consider this. I was once there myself.
T
I ponder your name dropping of the Rhema Bible institute , or any Man-made organization as if doing so is your way of validating your own understanding.
RBI, is in gross error
please consider this. I was once there myself.
T
Gracealone
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It is well, with my soul. :friends:
:friends:I find this a bit laughable really of coure we have free will.
Joshua 24:15 choose you this day whome you will serve.
we have choice alright and GOd does not take this away when we come to Him we always have choice.
you know its funny people think that we imperfect beings can not chose to leave God after we have accepted Him. Yet even Satan himself an angel who was made perfect was able to chose to leave God. and many angels with him.
even Adam and Eve who were made perfect chose to leave God by way of disobedience. hmmm
it is ignorance to say that we can not lose salvation after accepting it. we can lose it the same way we got it. free choice.
once saved always saved is a lie. it is conditional on our daily denying of self and carry our cross daily.
Blessings
Joshua 24:15 choose you this day whome you will serve.
we have choice alright and GOd does not take this away when we come to Him we always have choice.
you know its funny people think that we imperfect beings can not chose to leave God after we have accepted Him. Yet even Satan himself an angel who was made perfect was able to chose to leave God. and many angels with him.
even Adam and Eve who were made perfect chose to leave God by way of disobedience. hmmm
it is ignorance to say that we can not lose salvation after accepting it. we can lose it the same way we got it. free choice.
once saved always saved is a lie. it is conditional on our daily denying of self and carry our cross daily.
Blessings
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In agreement with you letusgo.
People take the most simplest things and make them into the most complex arguments. Pointless.
Can you lose your salvation? Yes, if you walk away from it. Just like you accepted it when Christ offered to you, you can reject it by walking away from it. Not a difficult thing to understand. Please do not start an argument on this! There are ample other open threads regarding OSAS teaching, etc. Use the search function.
Keep this in mind:
1 John 2:18-19
Warning Concerning Antichrists
<sup id="en-ESV-30552" class="versenum" value="18">18</sup>Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. <sup id="en-ESV-30553" class="versenum" value="19">19</sup> They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
Free will? Yes, how obvious is it that we have free will? How about the rampant sin since Adam & Eve?
Golfjack, time do some personal research. Rhema Bible Institute teaches false doctrines.
I did some Google searching for you and found these to help you:
Lies of Rhema # 1 - Romans 10:9 Ppt Presentation
YouTube:
YouTube - RHEMA Bible Training Center
If you have an issue with this, take it up with GOD first. Don't steer this thread off topic, only posted the above for your good since you mentioned it already. So, essentially now that we all know you're strong on your teacher from that institute, there is no reason for anyone here to trust your knowledge on the Bible at this point.
Sorry if that offends you, but truth hurts sometimes.
People take the most simplest things and make them into the most complex arguments. Pointless.
Can you lose your salvation? Yes, if you walk away from it. Just like you accepted it when Christ offered to you, you can reject it by walking away from it. Not a difficult thing to understand. Please do not start an argument on this! There are ample other open threads regarding OSAS teaching, etc. Use the search function.
Keep this in mind:
1 John 2:18-19
Warning Concerning Antichrists
<sup id="en-ESV-30552" class="versenum" value="18">18</sup>Children, it is the last hour, and as you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. Therefore we know that it is the last hour. <sup id="en-ESV-30553" class="versenum" value="19">19</sup> They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us.
Free will? Yes, how obvious is it that we have free will? How about the rampant sin since Adam & Eve?
Golfjack, time do some personal research. Rhema Bible Institute teaches false doctrines.
I did some Google searching for you and found these to help you:
Lies of Rhema # 1 - Romans 10:9 Ppt Presentation
YouTube:
YouTube - RHEMA Bible Training Center
If you have an issue with this, take it up with GOD first. Don't steer this thread off topic, only posted the above for your good since you mentioned it already. So, essentially now that we all know you're strong on your teacher from that institute, there is no reason for anyone here to trust your knowledge on the Bible at this point.
Sorry if that offends you, but truth hurts sometimes.
Now back to the topic of the OP.
We can see by looking at Christ's life while in the flesh that while He had His own will He chose to submit to Father's will.
Matthew 26:39-42
39*He went on a little farther and fell face down on the ground, praying, [COLOR="Red[B]"]“My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. Yet I want your will, not mine.” [/B][/COLOR]40*Then he returned to the disciples and found them asleep. He said to Peter, “Couldn’t you stay awake and watch with me even one hour? 41 Keep alert and pray. Otherwise temptation will overpower you. For though the spirit is willing enough, the body is weak!”
42*Again he left them and prayed, “My Father! If this cup cannot be taken away until I drink it, your will be done.”
Yes God has given us all free will, yet He is not out to manipulate or change our will, He just wants us to trust Him and submit to His will in the same manner as His Son Jesus.
We can see by looking at Christ's life while in the flesh that while He had His own will He chose to submit to Father's will.
Matthew 26:39-42
39*He went on a little farther and fell face down on the ground, praying, [COLOR="Red[B]"]“My Father! If it is possible, let this cup of suffering be taken away from me. Yet I want your will, not mine.” [/B][/COLOR]40*Then he returned to the disciples and found them asleep. He said to Peter, “Couldn’t you stay awake and watch with me even one hour? 41 Keep alert and pray. Otherwise temptation will overpower you. For though the spirit is willing enough, the body is weak!”
42*Again he left them and prayed, “My Father! If this cup cannot be taken away until I drink it, your will be done.”
Yes God has given us all free will, yet He is not out to manipulate or change our will, He just wants us to trust Him and submit to His will in the same manner as His Son Jesus.
