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Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by Dave M, Feb 3, 2018.

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  1. It is not faith that saves. The faith God gives is evidence of being saved. We have the cart before the horse.

    The thief next to Jesus was different to the other criminal. He was concerned with Jesus suffering for sins He did not commit. He had compassion for Jesus. He showed a good heart. God judged the heart and mind. They passed. Jesus could then say to him, I will see you in paradise.

    The thief was then likely given a revelation of who Jesus was. It is this spiritual revelation of Jesus that is Christian faith. Only faith because it is spiritual. But it is as real to us as gravity. Hence, anyone proposing we need to grow in faith does not understand faith. Anyone proposing we need to grow in Christian faith, does not understand Christian faith.

    Peter knew Jesus was more then a man. Peter had faith that Jesus was able to help him to walk on water. Yet, even he needed Christian faith. Matt 16:16-17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. 17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    This revelation of who Jesus is, is given to all Christians. Christians are humans who have passed His judgement and are now adopted. Evidenced by them calling Jesus Lord. Just as the thief did. That is why we have scripture saying this: John 14:16 I am the way and the truth and the life, nobody comes to the Father but through me. And John 3:16 ''whosoever believes He is Lord''. 1 Cor 12:3 'Nobody says Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit''.

    Your statement is like saying ''dead love is no love''. What love is dead? What faith is dead?

    If I have no works, my faith in grey aliens may be alive but my Christian faith is dead.

    Grow what faith?

    We can grow in faith in God as daily we better grasp Him. Look at Abraham conversing with Him over Sodom. Abraham asked questions of God he was not certain of. God revealed Himself to be exceedingly good. Abraham's faith in God being good, increased.
    But faith in God's existence and Jesus being Lord (IE Christian faith), how do you grow in that? You either know it or you don't. As scripture says ''My sheep hear my voice''. It does not say after removing all doubt and fear, my sheep hear my voice. Or after a level of faith is built up, my sheep hear my voice. It is all nonsensical statements. We either are His sheep who hear His voice or we are not.
  2. KJ thanks you for taking the time to respond, I with much respect for you must disagree with you on growing your faith not being possible. I get the idea from reading what you wrote everyone gets the same amount of faith, maybe I am not understanding correctly???? yet in scripture Jesus complimented the centurion for his great faith and scolded others for there little faith, to me it seems there are different levels of faith., not only that he tells us to pursue faith. I do believe we can grow as Christians and become more mature in our walk, and I do believe we can grow in our faith and get greater faith when we pursue it.

    Luke 7
    When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.

    Matthew 15:28
    Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed instantly.

    Matthew 14:31
    Jesus immediately reached out his hand and took hold of him, saying to him, “O you of little faith, why did you doubt?

    Matthew 8:26
    And he said to them, “Why are you afraid, O you of little faith?” Then he rose and rebuked the winds and the sea, and there was a great calm

    1 Timothy 6:11
    But as for you, O man of God, flee these things. Pursue righteousness, godliness, faith, love, steadfastness, gentleness.

  3. I never said we can't grow in faith. It is all about what faith we grow in.

    The centurion had faith in a miracle worker called Jesus. The woman in Matt 15:28 had faith in a man called Jesus who was a miracle worker. Those in Matt 14:31 had little faith in the miracle worker, Jesus. Same for those in Matt 8:26.

    As for 1 Tim 6:11, pursue what faith? Why do we not define the faith we referring to when we will properly define every other word there? If a preacher were preaching on that verse and talking to love, they would say 'pursue love for God firstly and secondly love for others''. If steadfastness, they would say ''remain steadfast in your convictions''. But yet when it comes to faith...

    ....what faith?????? :smile:

  4. @KingJ this site is talkjesus. Everybody is talking about faith in our Lord and Saviour Christ Jesus to fulfill his promises.
    Sent from a mobile device
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  5. #65 KingJ, Feb 13, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 13, 2018
    I have proven that some here are referring to faith in faith and not Christian faith. I honestly love your statement. It is true and always refreshing to hear Jesus in the same sentence as the word faith.

    Now to interrogate your statement a bit. What promises must Jesus still fulfill? The only promise we holding onto by faith is the promise to be reconciled with God. We can't grow in that faith. We either have a realistic expectation from faith given to us or we don't.

    I propose there are many 'faiths' one can have in Christianity. i Faith in one God, ii Faith in God's existence, iii Faith that Jesus is God the Son, iv faith that God is good and not evil as Rom 9 says a 'god' can be evil, v faith that God's word is true and uncorrupted. Faith in God being good can branch out into actual application examples. Like faith in His impartiality. Faith in Him keeping us in His love for eternity. Faith in Him being good to all and not merely the chosen. I am reminded of Abraham's faith in God growing after he discussed Sodom's destruction with God.

    I believe we can only grow in faith in God. There is no other faith that a Christian can or needs to grow in. But some preachers, will have us apply effort in the direction of Judaic type faith. As those unsaved had at the time of Jesus the miracle worker. Not the Jesus who we are able to confidently call our Lord and God our Father.

    So you end up with ''Christians who believe in Jesus'' and yet treat Him as though they are unrelated to Him. Interact with Him as though He is an object of two shades. Blessings and curses. There is Christian faith and then there is faith in promises being kept by the miracle worker, known as Jesus.

    Christian faith will stand if God loses His Kingdom. The other faith will fall and serves whoever has the 'power' to affect positive outcomes. I am sure God is dying to do that acid test among us Christians. He loses all His power, who serves Him now. Who has '''faith''' when God will not and can not provide that increased salary or healing? Obviously God does not need to do this as He knows the depths of our hearts and minds. But do we? Where is our faith and love if we are twisting God's arm for our positive outcome?

    Job was a great man of faith. Because he stayed loyal to God despite hell hitting him.
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  6. #66 Bendito, Mar 6, 2018
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 19, 2018
    I was just reading this thread...or string.
    Did you know that our covenant is stronger than the one God had with the Jews? Yes both were blood covenants, but I'll share with you twelve differences between the two covenants. that show how the new is better than the old...and there are more than twelve...You find the rest.

    (1). The Law did not provide a way of justification by faith, but the new covenant does (Gal. 3:10-12; Heb. 7:19).
    The Law did not bring acquittal, but condemnation, because no one was able to keep it perfectly. Paul states plainly, “Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, ‘The righteous man shall live by faith.’ However, the Law is not of faith” (Gal. 3:11-12a). If you want to be justified by the Law, all you have to do is to keep it perfectly, from birth until death, not just outwardly, but in your heart! The problem is, you are defeated before you begin, because we all have broken God’s commandments before we even begin to attempt keeping them! It’s like stepping up to bat with three strikes against you! Why bother?

    (2). The Law could not impart spiritual life, but the new covenant does (Gal. 3:21; 2 Cor. 3:6).
    That was not the purpose of the Law. Without new life from God in our souls, we cannot begin to please God. It would be like trying to prop up a corpse and get it to do certain things! The corpse needs life, and doing things will not give it life. You may ask, “Then why did God give the Law?”

    (3). The purpose of the Law was to define and magnify our sinfulness, so that we would be driven to faith in Christ (Gal. 3:19-24; Rom. 5:20).
    The notion of our basic goodness is planted deep within our rebellious hearts. We compare ourselves with others who are worse than we are, and conclude, “I’m not such a bad person after all!” We hear of an atrocious crime and we think, “How can people do things like that? I’m glad that I’m not like that evil person!” We all are prone to justify ourselves before God in this way.

    Years ago, someone asked me to visit an acquaintance in the hospital who had suffered a major heart attack. I went to visit him and found out that he was a bartender at one of the most notoriously wicked bars in town. He had no church background and no religious inclinations. I asked about his family and found out that he had been through several divorces. He didn’t even know where his children were living or how to contact them. But when I shared the gospel with him, he told me that he would get into heaven because he was a basically good person!

    The Bible teaches that a main reason that God introduced the Law was that sin might increase (Rom. 5:20). The Law “shut up everyone under sin” (Gal. 3:22). The Law reveals God’s holy standards, so that we see our guilt. In spite of this, we dodge it and congratulate ourselves in keeping it, while condemning others. The Pharisees did this. They prided themselves in never committing murder. Jesus said that if they had ever been angry with their brother, they were guilty of murder in God’s sight (Matt. 5:21-22). They boasted in never committing adultery. Jesus showed them that to lust after a woman in their hearts made them guilty of adultery in God’s sight (Matt. 5:27-30). The Law defines and magnifies our sinfulness, so that we will be driven to faith in Christ as our only hope of right standing before God.

    (4). The Law led to bondage, not to freedom (-5:1; Acts
    The Law could never free us from sin. Peter calls it “a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear” (Acts 15:10). Paul compares being under the Law to being born of Hagar, the bondwoman. “She is in slavery with her children.” But those who are children of promise are free. He concludes, “It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery” (Gal. 4:25; 5:1).

    It is not that those under the new covenant are lawless. As it says, God writes His laws on our hearts. This changes our motivation, so that we desire to obey God out of love. Thus John wrote (1 John 5:3), “For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome.”

    (5). The Law was external, not internal, and thus did not supply the power to meet its demands (Deut. 5:29; 29:4; Ezek. 36:26-27; Rom. 8:3-4).
    In Deuteronomy 5:29, God exclaims, “Oh, that they [Israel] had such a heart in them, that they would fear Me and keep all My commandments always…!” In Deuteronomy 29:4, Moses tells the people, “Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart to know, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear.” But in the new covenant promises of Ezekiel 36:26-27, God declares, “Moreover, I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances.” Paul applies this to believers in Christ: “For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit” (Rom. 8:3-4).

    (6). The Law was a conditional covenant with frightening penalties for disobedience, whereas the new covenant is based on God’s promises and initiative (Deut. 28:15-68; Heb. 8:8-12).
    The Law spelled out the blessings for obedience and the terrible consequences for disobedience (Deut. 28:1-68). If people had the ability to obey God’s holy Law, a chapter like this should have motivated them! The blessings for obedience to them and to their children were wonderful (28:1-14). The curses for disobedience were horrific (28:15-68). Their failure to keep the Law in light of these rewards and punishments only shows the stubborn sinfulness of the human heart apart from regeneration! Even though God had taken them gently by the hand to lead them out of bondage in Egypt, they did not continue in His covenant, and so He did not care for them (Heb. 8:9). (Hebrews quotes the LXX; the Hebrew reads, “although I was a husband to them.” The difference may be due to a typographical error of one letter. See Appendix E2, Calvin’s Commentaries [Baker], p. 385-386.)

    Notice the contrasting emphases in Hebrews 8:8-12 between Israel’s disobedience under the old covenant, versus God’s initiative under the new covenant. The old covenant failed because God found fault with them. They did not continue in His covenant, in spite of His kindness. But the new covenant will be marked by success because it does not depend on our weak, sinful flesh, but rather on the sure purpose of God. He repeatedly says, “I will, I will, I will,” (8:10-12) to emphasize that the new covenant is superior to the old, because it is based on the promises of God, not on the promises of sinful men to try to keep it.

    (7). The Law could not provide full and complete forgiveness of sins, but the new covenant does (Heb. 9:9; 10:1-4, 10).
    The gifts and sacrifices of the old covenant could not make a worshiper perfect in conscience. “It is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins” (Heb. 9:9; 10:4). Because of this, they had to keep offering them year by year, as a yearly reminder of sins (10:1-3). But Jesus Christ, by the one offering of Himself, cleanses our conscience and puts away our sins once for all (9:14; 10:10, 14)! Hallelujah!

    (8). The Law was based on an inferior priesthood, but the new covenant is based on the superior priesthood of Jesus (-8:6).
    We saw this in previous messages, and so only mention it here. The Law was connected to the Levitical priests, who were mortal sinners. The new covenant is based on our priest according to the order of Melchizedek, made perfect forever.

    (9). The Law did not bring everyone under it to know the Lord personally, but the new covenant does (Heb. 8:11).
    All of the Jews were under the old covenant made at Sinai. But most of them were unbelievers who did not know God. By contrast, under the new covenant, “by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit” (1 Cor. 12:13). That is clearly a fulfillment of Jeremiah 31:34, “For all will know Me, from the least to the greatest.”

    (10). The Law was limited largely to one physical nation, whereas the new covenant extends to all people (Deut. 5:3-4; 7:7-11; Acts 2:17-18; Rom. 15:8-12).
    The old covenant was restricted to the physical descendants of Abraham through Isaac and Jacob. The descendents of Abraham through Ishmael and Esau were excluded. The descendants of Lot (the Moabites and the Ammonites), plus the Canaanites, were cut off from the promises, with the rare exception of a few proselytes, such as Rahab, Ruth, and a few others. Paul describes the Gentiles before Christ as “excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world” (Eph. 2:12). But now, under the new covenant, God is calling the nations to salvation. We have been grafted in to the olive tree “until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in” (Rom. 11:25; see 15:8-12).

    (11). The Law kept worshipers at a distance from God because of His holiness and their sinfulness, whereas the new covenant invites us to draw near (Exod. 19:12-13, 21-24; Heb. 4:16; 7:19; 10:22).
    When God instituted the Law at Sinai, He instructed Moses to draw boundaries around the mountain, so that no one would come near and die. When Moses went up on the mountain to meet with God, He told him to go back down and warn the people again, so that no one would break through to gaze on the Lord and perish. As we’ve seen, none but the high priest on the Day of Atonement could enter the Holy of Holies, where the shekinah glory of God was displayed. The Law kept sinners at a distance. But the new covenant invites sinners to draw near to the very throne of God through the blood of Christ, to receive grace and mercy!

    (12). The Law served a temporary function, whereas the new covenant is eternal (Gal. 3:19-25; Heb. 9:9-12; 13:20).
    Paul says that the Law was like a tutor, needed until we grew to adulthood. But now that the promise has come in Christ, the tutor is no longer needed. But the new covenant obtained eternal redemption for us, so that it is called the eternal covenant (13:20).

    from: Lesson 24: The Better Covenant (Hebrews 8:7-12)
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