DOES YOUR CHURCH WANT THE PRESENCE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT?

[Brother Paul]

I don't believe Jesus tells the 5 foolish virgins I "never" knew you.
Also they did have oil (the Spirit) at one time. They just ran out.

He does tell them this andrne they were not really born of Him in the first place
They never had the Spirit...it is not some THhING you have and then run out of....if you are His of Him you cannot cease being who you are

 

[B-A-C]

It's a little amazing to me, we have over 60 posts in this thread, and no real mention of Galatians 5.
Even more than the gifts of the Spirit, what should see in a church?

What determines your maturity in the Spirit... the gifts or the fruit?

Gal 5:14; For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."
Gal 5:15; But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.
Gal 5:16; But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.
Gal 5:17; For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.
Gal 5:18; But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.
Gal 5:19; Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,
Gal 5:20; idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,
Gal 5:21; envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:22; But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23; gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24; Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25; If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.
Gal 5:26; Let us not become boastful, challenging one another, envying one another.

I see a lot of devouring, outbursts of anger, enmities, strife, dissesions and factions here on TalkJesus.
I see a lot of boasting, challenging, and to a degree even envying. We are supposed to be in unity.

Eph 4:3; being diligent to preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.
Eph 4:13; until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.

Does your church exhibit the fruit of the Spirit as a whole? Or does most of your church exhibit the deeds of the flesh?
Notice it's called the "fruit", not the fruit(s) with an s. Either you have it, or you don't. There is no "some of it".

If you (some of the people here on TalkJesus) are an example of the type of fruit that is in your church, then heaven help you.
We have people who openly admit they live with someone they aren't married to. We have some who drink a lot, and even get drunk on occasion. We have some who do drugs.
Check the deeds of the flesh again.... immorality, sensuality, sorcery, drunkenness.

These people can say they have the Holy Spirit.... but...

 

[B-A-C]

He does tell them this andrne they were not really born of Him in the first place
They never had the Spirit...it is not some THhING you have and then run out of....if you are His of Him you cannot cease being who you are

It seems every thread has to end up in an OSAS discussion

Can you give me the scripture in Matt 25 where He says this?
Also can you give me the scripture that says "you cannot cease being who you are" ?

 

[Brother Paul]

Matthew 25:12....

 

[B-A-C]

Matthew 25:12
(AMPC) But He replied, I solemnly declare to you, I do not know you [I am not acquainted with you].
(AMPC+) But He replied, I solemnly declare to you, I do not know you [I am not acquainted with you].
(ASV) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(BBE) But he made answer and said, Truly I say to you, I have no knowledge of you.
(CEV) But the groom replied, "I don't even know you!"
(CSB) “He replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you!’
(ESV) But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
(ESV+) R12But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, R13I do not know you.’
(GNB) 'Certainly not! I don't know you,' the bridegroom answered."
(Greek NT TR+) οG3588 T-NSM δεG1161 CONJ αποκριθειςG611 V-AOP-NSM ειπενG3004 V-2AAI-3S αμηνG281 HEB λεγωG3004 V-PAI-1S υμινG4771 P-2DP ουκG3756 PRT-N οιδαG1492 V-RAI-1S υμαςG4771 P-2AP
(GW) "But he answered them, 'I don't even know who you are!'
(HCSB) "But he replied, 'I assure you: I do not know you!'
(ISV) But he replied, 'I tell you with certainty, I don't know you!'
(KJV) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(KJV+) ButG1161 heG3588 answeredG611 and said,G2036 VerilyG281 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 I knowG1492 youG5209 not.G3756
(KJVA) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(MKJV) But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you.
(MSG) "He answered, 'Do I know you? I don't think I know you.'
(NAS77) "But he answered and said, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'
(NASB) "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'
(NASB+) "But he answeredG611, 'TrulyG281 I sayG3004 to you, I do not knowG3609a you.'
(NIrV) "But he replied, 'What I'm about to tell you is true. I don't know you.'
(NIV) "But he replied, 'Truly I tell you, I don't know you.'
(NKJV) But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
(NLT) “But he called back, ‘Believe me, I don’t know you!’
(RV) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(TPT) “But he called back, ‘Go away! Do I know you? I can assure you, I don’t even know you!’

None of these Bible have the word "never" in that verse anywhere. Which translation are you using?

 

[Dave M]

I see a lot of devouring, outbursts of anger, enmities, strife, dissesions and factions here on TalkJesus.
I see a lot of boasting, challenging, and to a degree even envying. We are supposed to be in unity.

I am guilty of some of this, but man its really the norm on Christian chat rooms. the light really shines when I see people who do NOT fall into this category,, and is a sure sign of maturity in the spirit, out of the people on TJ I have only seen in maybe a handful of people with this type of maturity. I strive for it and do good for a while then fall right back,,, please pray for my maturity and growth.

 

[B-A-C]

I am guilty of some of this, but man its really the norm on Christian chat rooms. the light really shines when I see people who do NOT fall into this category,, and is a sure sign of maturity in the spirit, out of the people on TJ I have only seen in maybe a handful of people with this type of maturity. I strive for it and do good for a while then fall right back,,, please pray for my maturity and growth.

I think none of us are perfect, and even Paul and Peter had their moments. But it seems some are here only for the sake of debate are argument.

 

[B-A-C]

He does tell them this andrne they were not really born of Him in the first place
They never had the Spirit...it is not some THhING you have and then run out of....if you are His of Him you cannot cease being who you are

If none of us can change, then we are all doomed. If none of us can be become new creations in Christ and crucify the old self, then we are in trouble.

We can debate whether the oil was the Spirit or not another time. But the fact remains... the 5 foolish virgins ran out of something.
It wasn't that they never had it. They had it, and then ran out of it. The ONLY difference between the 5 foolish virgins and the 5 "wise" virgins
was that they ran out of oil. That's the only difference.

 

[Brother-Paul]

Matthew 25:11-12
11 “Afterward the other virgins (G3588 refers to a feminine & G3933 refers to a Maiden, a Daughter, Daughter-in-law, Virgin) came also, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open to us!’
12 But he answered and said, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.’

It does not refer to all being Saved souls, from the Greek here the word virgin refers to a females, maidens, which could be any of the above.
So I looked a little more into this and include the following, as it nicely ties in other scriptures

The application increasingly colours the story. The girls’ appeal and the bridegroom’s response recall the chilling words of Matt 7:22-23; here, as there, I do not know you is a decisive formula of rejection, rather than a mere statement of fact (which could hardly be true of half of the bridal procession!). The formula of Matt 22:14, ‘Many are called, but few are chosen’, would aptly sum up the point, which is similar to that of Matt 22:11–13 it is not enough to be ‘in on the act’, to be a professing disciple; the disciple must also be prepared for the ultimate encounter. How we are to prepare, this parable does not specify, but the next one will take up this point.

France, R. T. (1985). Matthew: an introduction and commentary

Shalom

 

[PloughBoy]

LOL. I love how most have squeeze the grapes in the vineyard, especially when my sisters in Christ gets involved, take off their shoes and press even more, and the more they press the sweeter "The Wine"! But I do understand that the dregs will come. "The winepress" of Life, filter by "The Word of GOD"!

 

[Brother Paul]

Matthew 25:12
(AMPC) But He replied, I solemnly declare to you, I do not know you [I am not acquainted with you].
(AMPC+) But He replied, I solemnly declare to you, I do not know you [I am not acquainted with you].
(ASV) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(BBE) But he made answer and said, Truly I say to you, I have no knowledge of you.
(CEV) But the groom replied, "I don't even know you!"
(CSB) “He replied, ‘Truly I tell you, I don’t know you!’
(ESV) But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, I do not know you.’
(ESV+) R12But he answered, ‘Truly, I say to you, R13I do not know you.’
(GNB) 'Certainly not! I don't know you,' the bridegroom answered."
(Greek NT TR+) οG3588 T-NSM δεG1161 CONJ αποκριθειςG611 V-AOP-NSM ειπενG3004 V-2AAI-3S αμηνG281 HEB λεγωG3004 V-PAI-1S υμινG4771 P-2DP ουκG3756 PRT-N οιδαG1492 V-RAI-1S υμαςG4771 P-2AP
(GW) "But he answered them, 'I don't even know who you are!'
(HCSB) "But he replied, 'I assure you: I do not know you!'
(ISV) But he replied, 'I tell you with certainty, I don't know you!'
(KJV) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(KJV+) ButG1161 heG3588 answeredG611 and said,G2036 VerilyG281 I sayG3004 unto you,G5213 I knowG1492 youG5209 not.G3756
(KJVA) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(MKJV) But he answered and said, Truly I say to you, I do not know you.
(MSG) "He answered, 'Do I know you? I don't think I know you.'
(NAS77) "But he answered and said, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'
(NASB) "But he answered, 'Truly I say to you, I do not know you.'
(NASB+) "But he answeredG611, 'TrulyG281 I sayG3004 to you, I do not knowG3609a you.'
(NIrV) "But he replied, 'What I'm about to tell you is true. I don't know you.'
(NIV) "But he replied, 'Truly I tell you, I don't know you.'
(NKJV) But he answered and said, 'Assuredly, I say to you, I do not know you.'
(NLT) “But he called back, ‘Believe me, I don’t know you!’
(RV) But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
(TPT) “But he called back, ‘Go away! Do I know you? I can assure you, I don’t even know you!’

None of these Bible have the word "never" in that verse anywhere. Which translation are you using?

Okay...if he is pressing He does not know them....when has He? The never is a given....

Also I am not OSAS (just for your info). OSAS people (at least most) believe because they repeated some magic words or took a bath that they are now eternally
secured but if that were the end of it then Simon Magi IS saved (it is written he believed and was baptized) but he was not because his heart was wrong before God. Now THOSE OSAS people think they are so secured that no matter what their life they are His child and thus will get into the Kingdom....but consider this....if that were the simple end all truth then Hitler will be in heaven as well as the unrepentant Pedophile Priests....I do not believe that is what the Bible has taught us. Now I will explain what I mean by analogy.

When a cow births a cow by nature the being it is, has the nature of a cow and when a human is born into this temporal realm the being within has the nature of a human, but when a new creature is truly born by God that being within is no longer simply a human but is NOW a partaker of the Divine nature...they ARE more than a mere human (if they can grasp it). Now yes I do believe a person can by their own free will reject God and the knowledge of God and all that God would have then provided for them...but THESE (as opposed to unbelievers and make-believers like Simon) are still His child and He knows them...if your child rejected you and denied you does that make them any less YOUR child? No! So these people (though in the church) are NOT and were NOT ever His children.

 

[Sue D.]

Folks -- this is NOT a church group -- this is a Forum. Big difference. Sounds like our interaction Here is being compared to being at church.

And, yes, we All need growth and maturity.

But Talk Jesus is Not a church group -- we come from a variety of religious backgrounds as do lots of people going to church.

And, yes, there Is a lot of 'opinions' being expressed. A lot who have decided that Their perspective is the Only Correct perspective.

And, sometimes I get to sounding like a moderator -- which I'm not.

Dave M -- made the comment that we All need growth and maturity. And we sometimes like to play the Holy Spirit with others.

Like 'how filled with the Spirit' Are people? By their fruits we will know them. People know 'us' by Our fruit of the Spirit. Galatians 5:22-23.

Maybe we should stop 'picking each other to death'.

I'll get off my soap box -- have to leave shortly.

 

[PloughBoy]

I still see, many are still squeezing the grapes. But may i say, just because He is also called "The Ancient of Days" does not mean, He is so old that He cannot remember who HE has "Purchased" Bought, Paid a price for a creature "Under The Bondage unto sin". Now this Creature He purchased is now HIS "SLAVE" and Now This Ancient of DAYS has become "Lord" and Master of this Creature who once was in slavery unto sin. I am quite sure He Knows his name! And there is a Recorded Document to testify to this event and time the Purchase agreement was ratified with witnesses. And cannot be "annul". For the agreement has been stamp in Blood, Sealed.
(1 Cor. 6). ASV.
"Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body."

That is a command by your "Master" you are not free, you have a Lord! Who Bought YOU! from the Slavery of SIN! You have a New OWNER! and if you do not obey or you choose to run away! He will come are get you, And He will "CHASTISE YOU AS A CRUEL ONE". and when he gets through with you, you will obey! That is a sign that you are a True Child of GOD is whether GOD Chastise you Severely! Then you know He Loves YOU! For by doing so, it will Bear the fruits of Righteousness! "OSAS" OPAB "The Gift of GOD is without Repentance"

"For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance. ... For God does not change his mind about whom he chooses and blesses. ... God never changes his .mind" For He is "Immutable".

PS. Now aren't you glad! That God will not sale you back into the "Bondage of SIN". You might lone to return, and indulge in its delicacies. But this Daddy, will come and get you! He will send the Dogs to come and get you! They will run you back home! Go ahead , test HIM. Now if He is not your Father, you can do what you want to, without worries, until. You have the "freewill" to do what you want to. until "Behold The BrideGroom is at the Door"

 

[Dave M]

But it seems some are here only for the sake of debate are argument.

yes I see what you mean by that !!

 

[Dave M]

Folks -- this is NOT a church group -- this is a Forum. Big difference.

interesting can you explain further?? whats the big difference you speak of??

 

[PloughBoy]

Folks -- this is NOT a church group -- this is a Forum. Big difference. Sounds like our interaction Here is being compared to being at church.

And, yes, we All need growth and maturity.

But Talk Jesus is Not a church group -- we come from a variety of religious backgrounds as do lots of people going to church.

And, yes, there Is a lot of 'opinions' being expressed. A lot who have decided that Their perspective is the Only Correct perspective.

And, sometimes I get to sounding like a moderator -- which I'm not.

Dave M -- made the comment that we All need growth and maturity. And we sometimes like to play the Holy Spirit with others.

Like 'how filled with the Spirit' Are people? By their fruits we will know them. People know 'us' by Our fruit of the Spirit. Galatians 5:22-23.

Maybe we should stop 'picking each other to death'.

I'll get off my soap box -- have to leave shortly.

I hope it is not a "church group" but i do know it is a "assembly" of the "Body of Christ" whom many have been wash in His Blood, Sanctified, and Chosen, a Congregation of the people of GOD' a Bless people, and HE did say" where 2 or 3 are gather together in My name I am in their mist. And GOD cannot Lie, for He is the "Tetragrammaton" For on "TalkJesus" our dialogue is like the Gatherings of the ancient Body of Believers of the earlier assembly of "The People of "The WAY", we are able to engage and hear, and voice our opinion and exercise our rights as if we "the Bereans" with the finger tips of the "Holy Scriptures" in touch with the Assembly of GOD is consists of many "NATIONS" throughout the world. It cannot get no better, unless GOD comes down and receives us all to HIS self in the Sky and plants us around the "Coronation Table" and drink the Fellowshipping Wine of Heaven! No Big I's and Little you, forever more! For the rules and the rulers have been change. Ink in the "Blood of Christ" ! Sealed by The "Holy Spirit of GOD" "Willed by The Will of GOD" and aren't you glad!

 

[Sue D.]

interesting can you explain further?? whats the big difference you speak of??

The Biblical church has a pastor / bishop/ elders and a board of deacons. And the people meet together as a group / with COVID situation -- through Zoom or a virtual service. The church I presently go to has both. As does the much bigger church that I'd been going to. Worshipping God as a group. Songs being sung -- preaching -- an offering collected at the main door rather than passing the offering plate around. A church group will be able to interact in person.

A forum will have none of that.

So rather than one Big difference there are Many differences. Churches has Sunday School classes before church service. People are baptized as they feel led to. Communion service is included once a month or a quarter -- what ever the church decides on.

And people worship with others of like beliefs and practices.

Wouldn't you agree?

 

[Sue D.]

Okay...if he is pressing He does not know them....when has He? The never is a given....

Also I am not OSAS (just for your info). OSAS people (at least most) believe because they repeated some magic words or took a bath that they are now eternally
secured but if that were the end of it then Simon Magi IS saved (it is written he believed and was baptized) but he was not because his heart was wrong before God. Now THOSE OSAS people think they are so secured that no matter what their life they are His child and thus will get into the Kingdom....but consider this....if that were the simple end all truth then Hitler will be in heaven as well as the unrepentant Pedophile Priests....I do not believe that is what the Bible has taught us. Now I will explain what I mean by analogy.

When a cow births a cow by nature the being it is, has the nature of a cow and when a human is born into this temporal realm the being within has the nature of a human, but when a new creature is truly born by God that being within is no longer simply a human but is NOW a partaker of the Divine nature...they ARE more than a mere human (if they can grasp it). Now yes I do believe a person can by their own free will reject God and the knowledge of God and all that God would have then provided for them...but THESE (as opposed to unbelievers and make-believers like Simon) are still His child and He knows them...if your child rejected you and denied you does that make them any less YOUR child? No! So these people (though in the church) are NOT and were NOT ever His children.

I'm am and always have been a 'once saved always saved' person. And it certainly is NOT because I repeated some magic words and took a bath (baptism by immersion) -- the Truth of the matter IS -- that once a person has accepted Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior that the Holy Spirit immediately comes to indwell that person and Never leaves until they are safe with Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1: 13 and 14.

A horrible person like 'whomever' can be horrible all their lives and at the end they Do acknowledge their need and they Are repentent and they Do accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. And THAT person Will be in heaven.

And the person who is a Wonderful person all their lives -- all the good works you'd want to observe -- Surely THEY will be in heaven. Except for one thing. That really good person has Not acknowledged their person need for a Savior. Has not been repentant because they honestly do not see that they Have sinned. So -- That person dies and guess where They end up. In hell / lake of fire and brimstone.

Why ? Because as Ephesians 2:8--9 tells us -- NOT of Works -- lest anyone would be boastful. "I helped at the soup kitchen More than you gave in offering or you cleaned the bathrooms at church."

Now -- about your cow giving birth. A cow will always be a cow and give birth to only another cow. Has the nature of a cow -- that's how God created it. A cow or any other animal cannot accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior.
So -- there is no comparison.

God is the Only One who knows who will or won't accept His gift of salvation / being 'saved'. God's ' elect'.

A person who is one of God's elect. Will at some point in their life Accept Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and Savior. That person might be 5 yrs. or or 95 yrs. old. when that decision is made by them.

No one is born a born again believer. No one becomes a child of God Until they accept Him as their personal Lord and Savior.

When a person becomes indwelt by the Holy Spirit -- at the moment of their salvation -- the Holy Spirit Will give them new Godly desires. If that person does Not have Some change -- they talk, act the same way as Before. Then a loving, concerned person Should befriend them -- privately -- share Your testimony with them. Get to know that person. Maybe they Are struggling and need positive encouragement. Maybe there was head knowledge but no Heart belief. They need salvation.

 

[B-A-C]

the Holy Spirit immediately comes to indwell that person and Never leaves until they are safe with Jesus Christ. Ephesians 1: 13 and 14.

What do these verses have to do with OSAS? You are stamped by the Spirit. Ok... the stamp can be taken away.

Also .. there is no "safe with Jesus".
The goats in Matthew 25.. thought they were "safe with Jesus".
The people who had the gifts of the Spirit in Matt 7:21-23; thought they were "safe with Jesus".
The 5 foolish virgins, thought they were "safe with Jesus".

Just because you make it to the judgment doesn't mean you are safe.

Like 'how filled with the Spirit' Are people? By their fruits we will know them. People know 'us' by Our fruit of the Spirit. Galatians 5:22-23.

Maybe we should stop 'picking each other to death'.

Yes.. we do know them by their fruit. We also know them by the lack of fruit.

Picking each other to death - is sometimes known as sharpening iron.

 

[Sue D.]

@B-A-C -- and Sometimes it's just simply being a pain in the neck.

What do these verses have to do with OSAS? You are stamped by the Spirit. Ok... the stamp can be taken away.

Also .. there is no "safe with Jesus".
The goats in Matthew 25.. thought they were "safe with Jesus".
The people who had the gifts of the Spirit in Matt 7:21-23; thought they were "safe with Jesus".
The 5 foolish virgins, thought they were "safe with Jesus".

Just because you make it to the judgment doesn't mean you are safe.



Yes.. we do know them by their fruit. We also know them by the lack of fruit.

Picking each other to death - is sometimes known as sharpening iron.

Ya know -- I kind of feel sorry for you. Picking Scripture to death like you do.