Member
brother you are so right that is an awewsome book. i think tht all pastors and christians should read that book. do not have time now but i will be back later to write more.
Denominations
brother you are so right that is an awewsome book. i think tht all pastors and christians should read that book. do not have time now but i will be back later to write more.
Member
I haven't read the book, but if the excerpt is anything to go by it seems the authors are completely unaware of the directions the gospel took before the close of even the 1st century. They are certainly correct that within the realms of the Roman Empire, Christianity became perverted by the pagan influences. This steadily grew worse for same territory which was subsequently governed by the successors to Constantine after he removed the capital to Constantinople, that is the bishops of Rome, compromised greatly the great truths of the gospel and allowed many pagan cultic beliefs to invade the church. The reult of this we see clearly in that great monstrosity called the Roman Catholic Church.
However, where the authors are wrong is to the extent the truth was propagated outside that Roman realm of influence, and even the extent to which some stalwarts of truth survived despite persecution within that same realm.
The Waldenses who descended from such as Vigilantus are one example of those who cleaved to the truth, in their case for centuries. The Celtic church in Britain before the arrival of Roman emmisaries in the 7th century was a wonderful example of mission oriented Christianity. People such as Columbanus, Patrick, Columba, Aiden, and Dinooth all predated any Roman influence in that area and extended their Scriptural based gospel back into Europe. They in fact gained their knowledge of the truth from the Galatians, who were themselves descendants of migrating Celts from the 3rd century bc.
I would also mention the church in Asia: an organised mission oriented church which extended from Persia and Assyria all the way to Mongolia, Japan, China and the Philipines. The church in Africa also survived without Roman influence very nicely right up to the 16th century when they were corrupted by the reformation movement, a movement not yet completely devoid of papal error, and by the way, still isn't.
Therefore to make the claim that there was no safe harbour for truth and the true gospel throughout the middle ages is quite incorrect. It was only where the papal influence was felt, and that in Europe, with some exceptions, that error became accepted.
However, where the authors are wrong is to the extent the truth was propagated outside that Roman realm of influence, and even the extent to which some stalwarts of truth survived despite persecution within that same realm.
The Waldenses who descended from such as Vigilantus are one example of those who cleaved to the truth, in their case for centuries. The Celtic church in Britain before the arrival of Roman emmisaries in the 7th century was a wonderful example of mission oriented Christianity. People such as Columbanus, Patrick, Columba, Aiden, and Dinooth all predated any Roman influence in that area and extended their Scriptural based gospel back into Europe. They in fact gained their knowledge of the truth from the Galatians, who were themselves descendants of migrating Celts from the 3rd century bc.
I would also mention the church in Asia: an organised mission oriented church which extended from Persia and Assyria all the way to Mongolia, Japan, China and the Philipines. The church in Africa also survived without Roman influence very nicely right up to the 16th century when they were corrupted by the reformation movement, a movement not yet completely devoid of papal error, and by the way, still isn't.
Therefore to make the claim that there was no safe harbour for truth and the true gospel throughout the middle ages is quite incorrect. It was only where the papal influence was felt, and that in Europe, with some exceptions, that error became accepted.
Member
I agree completely. I think the book is aimed at primarily the Western church institutions and this is the intended audience , as indicated by the title "exploring roots of our church practices", not the practices of the church in Asia or elsewhere. So for this reason it has some rather generalized statements.
Member
actually the book is right on in every aspect it is written in. of course many do not want to look at it here in america. that would mean look to the bible for the truth rather than the semenary and man made business that church is here. quit looking to man to teach ou and look to Christ to teach you and see the true differance in the two.
Member
If I were to say that "all", or "many" churches that do not belong to a denomination were "all" wanting to be on the top of the Totem Pole, and do not want to to anyone else, what is your reaction? I feel pretty confident your reaction would make the hair on your head stand up. This might be true for a very small group of small churches, however I do not believe the statement is true.
So why do some of you make a blanket statement for "all" or "most" or "many" denominations? My experience in the mission field in Bolivia, South America showed me why (some) denominations are so very important, the Southern Baptist saved a group of independent Non-denominational missionaries from being sent home by the Bolivian Government. That's just one of many reasons I have seen why I belong to the Southern baptist Denomination. I do not think the majority of denomonations are bad or good, each has to be evaluated on it's own merit of bing a genuine representative of jesus Christ. Blessings to U all!
farout
Be a little more carefully in attacking all denominations, as there are genuine believers ministering in Jesus name.
So why do some of you make a blanket statement for "all" or "most" or "many" denominations? My experience in the mission field in Bolivia, South America showed me why (some) denominations are so very important, the Southern Baptist saved a group of independent Non-denominational missionaries from being sent home by the Bolivian Government. That's just one of many reasons I have seen why I belong to the Southern baptist Denomination. I do not think the majority of denomonations are bad or good, each has to be evaluated on it's own merit of bing a genuine representative of jesus Christ. Blessings to U all!
farout
Be a little more carefully in attacking all denominations, as there are genuine believers ministering in Jesus name.
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Member
i really do not care to hear semanary answers on these posts that i do. they are there to justify the false things being taught and stated by true believers that received revelation from Christ not a man. if you cant pray about and seek Christ on these issues but look to where man has taught you then please keep it to yourself. I am sick and tired of the justification of garbage in the churches across america rather than people digging into Christ. i can say this freely because i have studied the doctrines of most all denominations in this nation and i have visited churches all around this nation. not just a few a whole lot of them.
Member
You speak wisely brother. Blanket accusations with no basis in facts are an assault on the Church of Jesus Christ.
We can plainly see who the father of religious hatred is, and we choose to walk a different path:
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Member
Denominations are not God's will, it's undeniable according to the Old and New Testaments.. therefore it is a true statement that ALL denominations are wrong 
. But it is a wrong statement to say that all denominations are bad. There are good and bad. If you identify yourself by a denomination, it is spiritual fornication. It is like if your wife decided to take the last name of another man, even though she is married to you. We are the bride of Christ, not of Luther, or Calvin, or the Pope. If we say I am a Lutheran, for example,,, i.e. a "Luther Christian".. we are "changing" our last name to "Luther-Jesus Christ".
I believe God cringes when we call our self by another name. Luther, Calvin, etc are just servants of God, not to be followed, and we are certainly not "of " them. They did not die for us, and we were not baptised into their name.
Something to think about.
There are good and bad people too in the world. But ALL unbelievers are wrong.
. But it is a wrong statement to say that all denominations are bad. There are good and bad. If you identify yourself by a denomination, it is spiritual fornication. It is like if your wife decided to take the last name of another man, even though she is married to you. We are the bride of Christ, not of Luther, or Calvin, or the Pope. If we say I am a Lutheran, for example,,, i.e. a "Luther Christian".. we are "changing" our last name to "Luther-Jesus Christ".I believe God cringes when we call our self by another name. Luther, Calvin, etc are just servants of God, not to be followed, and we are certainly not "of " them. They did not die for us, and we were not baptised into their name.
Something to think about
. There are good and bad people too in the world. But ALL unbelievers are wrong
.
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Loyal
While all denominations, or church groups are probably wrong in a measure and you have said that all unbelievers are wrong, should not the same be said about all believers who have not overcome everything that does separate them, or would separate them, from God? The Bible is full of promises. In the Book of Revelation there are seven made specifically to overcomers in chapters 2 and 3. Without these promises we will remain dead, so it would be advisable for those who are interested to encounter whatever is necessary to become an overcomer as Jesus was an overcomer. He overcame the world that stood between His flesh and the Father. Our worlds must similarly be overcome and the means has been provided. The Door has been opened.Denominations are not God's will, it's undeniable according to the Old and New Testaments.. therefore it is a true statement that ALL denominations are wrong
Member
I look at those denominations that are alive in the Spirit as cells in the body of Christ, each seemingly compliments the others in some ways and brings something unique to the table in others. Having been in a few of them as a young man I can say they followed Jesus to the best of their knowledge and ability. They are composed of some believers who love Jesus, some religious people, and some lost people who happen to attend for whatever reasons. In truth the non denominational I have met do not seem any different, and some are proud to wear their non-label label. IE: I see no difference. I would not be so bold as to think I can change anyone's mind, especially the finger pointing crowd (Luk 18:11 ), or anyone else who has made up their mind to condemn them.
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
Loyal
Even by having a philosophy/doctrine/practice/belief that says I don't want to belong to other denominations, then you by default, become a denomination.
A denomination is just a belief that separates you from other believers for one reason or another.
Every denomination started because they didn't go along with something taught by the parent denomination.
Why it's true, a building, or membership, doesn't make you a member of the body of Christ. It's also true you can't do anything of the things Christ called us to do as a hermit.
Love one another, bear each other burdens, confess to one another, pray for one another, exhort one another, lift one another up in hymns and praise, forgive one another, etc...
You can't do any of those things without interaction with other Christians.
A denomination is just a belief that separates you from other believers for one reason or another.
Every denomination started because they didn't go along with something taught by the parent denomination.
Why it's true, a building, or membership, doesn't make you a member of the body of Christ. It's also true you can't do anything of the things Christ called us to do as a hermit.
Love one another, bear each other burdens, confess to one another, pray for one another, exhort one another, lift one another up in hymns and praise, forgive one another, etc...
You can't do any of those things without interaction with other Christians.
Member
Of course we should not think that non-denominational has no problems, and does not have the normal problems that we have as human beings in getting along with others. Just look at all the problems the churches mentioned in the bible had.. these were all non-denominational churches. But which one is in God's will? Non-denomination or denomination?
We should not say that denominations are alive in the Spirit. A denomination is like a detached member of the Body of Christ, if it is detached how can it be living? I personally am not aware of any denominations which are alive in the Spirit, but I do know a number of non-denominational gatherings and house church movements which are.
Member
A denomination according to dictionary is "A large group of religious congregations united under a common faith and name and organized under a single administrative and legal hierarchy." In this sense, yes any proclaimed non-denominational group is also a denomination.
But there is another type of church.. which is not a denomination and is not a non-denomination. The first churches on Earth were not denominations, they were whole city churches.. Ephesus, Rome, Jerusalem, Antioch, Corinth..I personally am not in a denomination and I'm not in a non-denomination. I'm simply a Christian and other believers are my brothers and sisters in Christ. I will not even say I am non-denominational, I am simply Christian. Just like I would just say I am a person, I would not describe myself as "not a fat person", if I am thin, or "not a thin person" if I am fat.
Actually to be in a denomination, in essence, is to identify ourself by anything other than Christ. Just saying I am Christian is not enough for some people, they want to be known as a Protestant Christian or evangelical, or pentacostal or non-denominational. As soon as we make those distinctions we are dividing ourselves. Now this was the issue at Corinth.. some were saying I am a Christ following Christian, others says they were a Paul following Christian, others said and Apollos following Christian... and Paul had to write to all the believers in the city of Corinth, and basically told them they were carnal and infantile. Even saying we are a Christ following Christian, like they may do in non-denominations, is still enabling division and distinction among ourselves.
First of all, we should stop seeing ourselves as belonging to anything and anyone other than Christ. Secondly, we should stop seeing others as belonging to anything and anyone than Christ. Only when we are like this will we be at the standard that the apostle Paul desired. If we can meet with others and see them as simply brothers or sisters in Christ, without distinguishing ourselves from them by what we believe regarding doctrines.. then we know we have progressed beyond babes in Christ and carnal thinking.
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Member
I read your post over several times. Then I read you profile. Then I prayed for you and how to respond in christian love and kindness. For a fairly new Christian, your profile says two years, but maybe that was back iin 2007 when you joined TJ. So perhaps you have been a christian eight years now. Somewhere or somehow you seem to have lost some joy. I can see that you are quite frustrated with Christian Higher Education and Churches, and Denominations. If you have genuinely "studied the doctrines of most all denominations in this nation and i have visited churches all around this nation. not just a few a whole lot of them." Friend and Brother in Christ, there is resentment and anguish in what you post. The Holy Spirit wants you to have love and joy in your life There is a saying that hurt people, hurt people. Please, let's be more compassionate and more Christ Like, that will bless us all. Blessings.
farout
Member
I understand that this is your opinion, and I respect the right for you to have it. As for me, at this point my personal experience tells me otherwise. Some of these churches are very much alive in Christ and God is moving in them in a mighty way. But like some non denominational churches, some are also dead.
Rom 14:4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
Member
I will accept that a denominational church could be very much alive in the Spirit, even more than non-denominational church..I used to be in a denominational church which was dead and became very much alive after the pastor and a number in the church had a spiritual awakening.. yet he and the church remained within the denomination, and after a few years it reverted back to a dead state when the pastor was replaced by those in charge over him. I would say it was alive, for a number of years, but human control and organization took over. Human organisation often kills the work that God wants to do.. I would not say God cannot or does not work in denomination. Yet only one state of a church is in God's will and desire according to the bible (Proverbs 6:19, Gal 5:10, 1 Cor 1:10). I believe that the capacity of a church run by human organisation or structure is smaller than that of a church led by the Spirit of God without human control. This is simply a matter of numbers. In human organisation only a few special ones, pastors , elders, leaders, priests.. are allowed to function fully in the church ministry the majority of congregation, 'laity', function in a smaller or limited way. With every member functioning in a church without human control, the capacity of spiritual growth and life in the Spirit is so much greater.
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Member
I hope my typing is okay today, I cannot find my reading glasses to check it = LOL!
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
The body as a whole has many gifts that should be exercised, but the Lord Himself set the five-fold ministry (humans to be led of the Spirit) in authority in the church. He also set deacons (servants) and elders/bishops (overseers) in the body (generally appointed by the five fold). Without any structure there would simply be chaos, perhaps that is why He did things the way He did.
Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting, and ordain elders in every city, as I had appointed thee:
1Ti 3:1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.
Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Active
Grace and Peace, Lets us refrain from doing any type of psycho-analogy when interpreting members post. It's unfair without ever having met this member to assume you know what's going on mentally or emotionally. The minute a person is labeled unstable it's kind of hard to shake that one off. Let everything be based on what is said on the forum. No personal jabs.
He received an infraction for his previous post.
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Member
The structure should be of God not of man. I agree.. men under the control of the Spirit , exactly as you stated. And it is Christ's authority the 5-fold exercise, not their own. Unfortunately the 5-fold ministry is not exhibited in the major denominations. Leaders are not appointed by the Spirit, but based upon their qualifications, experience, training etc. Without the man-made structure of the denominations, there is not necessarily chaos either. I do not agree that without human structure there is always chaos, this is a kind of fearful thinking that keeps denominations and Papal-like authority structures in existence. The idea that Christians cannot meet together without some kind of human control or governance, is just missing the point. The Holy Spirit within every believer produces patience and self-control and all the other gifts . I have met in groups 20, 30 up to 100, regularly, without man-made structure, and there is no ensuing chaos or disorder.. if there is someone who disturbs the peace.. they are taken aside and spoken to privately by 2 or 3 more mature believers, but this is rare. There doesn't have to be a theologically trained pastor or priest or someone else like this. But I would suggest that if the structure is taken away from the human organizations, there would be higher chance of chaos, because their experience of the Spirit and spiritual maturity may be lacking...because everyone is so used to having the Papal-like authority structure over them. But there are denominations and non-denoms where the pastor or priest does not allow a bible study between its members, unless they are present to oversee it. This is the kind of structure that prevents the Spirit's flow.
You suggested that the 5-fold would somehow prevent chaos. Well yes and no. No because the 5-fold is meant to oversee.. not control.. the church. Paul was an apostle, but it was the elders in each church who had primary responsibility. The 5-fold ministries are gifts to the Body of Christ.. to help it grow and function.. they are not meant to replace the Head of the Body.. Christ Himself. We look back in history and we see that Paul, even though was an apostle.. had little control over the churches.. he could not prevent the ensuing chaos in Corinth. But yes they could prevent chaos if the individual members in the church heed their advice and warnings. If they accepted Paul's letters of exhortation, then yes it would prevent chaos. But it was nothing like the Papal-style structure of human control and organisation.. which enforced its order under the threat of death (spiritual or physical) if necessary.
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Member
Hi James, farout here. As I read your post I thought of some questions and a few things I wanted to say. You have some pretty deep thoughts, and bring issues to the front I have never experienced. I am thinking my experience in nothing but Baptist Chrurches has me at a disadvantage in addressing other denominations and their governing is concerned. I can say in the last 60 years that I can remember for sure, that no one told the pastor what to preach, or told him what church he would pastor next, or when this would take place. Indeed the congregation makes those decisions to vote a pastor into the office or vote him out. The congregation, which the pastor is a member, is a democratic organization. No one person makes all the decision's. There are committee's that are in charge of certain assigned areas. Business meetings are held however often the congregation states in their constitution says. Usually the Elder or Deacon Board, with the Pastor as chairman, are Board that all other boards report to. There are Trustees that maintain the building and financial affairs. If a denomination is involved the Church determines how much they will sent to the state office and the national office. The church can determine if they want to send or not send anything to either or niether of the denominational offices. I have been a pastor of a church that only supported the state office.
At no time has anyone told me what to preach or how to preach. These structures are typical of Baptist churches, be they non-denominational or denominational. In the United States in order for a church to have a 501 3C tax exexpt status, a church has to hace some stated form of government. Frankly, I do not think a churches should be tax exempt, and that giving should be taken off individual taxes. The Bible says we are not to let the left hand know what the right hand gives. I never knew who gave what. I agree that too often those who record what is given by whom, can spread private information, that can cause favoritism in elections for offices, and other church related business.
I believe it may come to a time and point in our country that private home churches, like they have in China may become necessary. Already in some states Ministers are required to be licensed by the church and give proof to the state. In some Europeian countries I have heard the country tells them what they can not preach. I think Canada is one country that speaking against homosexuality can cause serious problems for the preacher. If anyone knows exactly what happens please let us know.
I agree a church body should be the least structured as possible. We are in a world that is in major change, and the devil is doing all that he can to bring christians under persecution. For lazy unconcerned so called christians they soon may have to make the choice who it is they are going to serve and if they are genuinely followers of Jesus Christ. I have said all i know for now. Blessings.
farout