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Defining Evidence on Supernatural Tongue Before Pentecost

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:6)

Active Member
From Waggles earlier post that you had replied to.

Isaiah 28:
11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest;
and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

1 Corinthians 14:
21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people;
and yet for all that will they not hear me, says the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serves
not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Greetings,

3934 [e]
bə·la·‘ă·ḡê
בְּלַעֲגֵ֣י
with stammering

laeg: mocking
Original Word: לַעֲגֵי
Part of Speech: Adjective
Transliteration: laeg
Phonetic Spelling: (law-ayg')
Short Definition: jesters

Bless you ....><>
Are you sure that is a right application to how stammering is used in Waggles' quote, because Isaiah 28:11-12 is referring to the Lord speaking thru others to others. It can't be the Lord speaking in mocking or jesting to others.

Maybe the mocking and jesting meaning has another word that is far more apt in reference to the tongue being unknown to the person the Lord is speaking thru to others for why stammering is used?
 
Active Member
Isaiah 28:5-13

In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.

But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

Whom shall He teach knowledge? and whom shall He make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: for with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

To whom He said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.


[COLOR=#660000]Come unto Me,
all ye that labour and are heavy laden,
and I will give you rest.[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#b30000]Take My yoke upon you,
and learn of Me;[/COLOR]
[COLOR=#660000]for I am meek and lowly in heart:
and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.[/COLOR]

Matthew 11:28-30
That reference reminds me of another O.T. scripture for discernment that falling down is not of the Lord at all, but seen as drinking from another fountain and glorying in it for doing so.

Proverbs 25:26 A righteous man falling down before the wicked is as a troubled fountain, and a corrupt spring. 27 It is not good to eat much honey: so for men to search their own glory is not glory. 28 He that hath no rule over his own spirit is like a city that is broken down, and without walls.

If believers are falling down when applying Luke 11:9-13 KJV as if something they are to do after they have come to & believed in Jesus Christ when they were saved, would that not mean that they had already received Him before that event when they fell down. And by falling down, that was not Him they had received as evident by the O.T. & N.T. scripture since no one was reported as falling down backwards when receiving the Holy Ghost at their salvation in the N.T.?
 
Least amongst the Best
Staff Member
Greetings and thank you Brother,

if you/we read on and you perhaps read also before, you will see that the prophecy given is in fact spot on (as always with the LORD).
look for example at Isaiah 33 verse 19
Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.

The Children or Tribe of Ephraim were getting told by the LORD what was to become them in Chapter 28 where we also see some much quoted verse about lines and precepts. (we 'would be scholars' are pretty quick to quote verses... that suit us and our doctrine(s) and often completely out of context, missing the more precious message deep with in the Scripture.)
It was not looking good. In Chapter 33 the LORD speaks again.

The enemies in those days were usually quite mocking... remember Goliath, for example? and they did speak in other languages (I am fairly sure that for the most part, the word we use as tongues is actually languages... correct me if I am wrong, please.... I don't mind! and actually prefer if you do!!) so, the translation we have before us in our language might give us a different meaning, if we want it to. Remember how often the people sought after things forbidden and were given to them, at least for a time? Because you have sought after... you will have.. I will send... etc. [Sorry I am not quoting here but I think that if you (anyone) is entering this sort of discussion that they will either know some Scripture or at least do something about it if they don't, like read some Scripture and then, there may be some kindly men who would provide some in in order to clarify, but at present I am relying on your general knowledge].

Let's bring it up to today... since a lot of those who are confused about some Scriptures quote Scriptures to back up a theory that is likewise something of today.
Let's be men and be very real about this... and this is not an exhaustive example, as any who have any memory of the persecutions of the last few hundred years would know and be able to recall, namely peoples like the jihadists, the russians, the germans... etc. Fierce, ruthless, mocking, and cruel... and of another tongue. How would you like to be back a few hundred years ago when the invading people of Rome on a murderous frenzy across Europe were slitting throats and spitting in faces and tearing people apart because they were enemies due to wanting to believe the Bible? No thanks. Were they in error and facing judgement, No. (except in the eyes of Rome) but were the instigators and perpetrators mocking and speaking not only a different language (tongue) but also in a way totally foreign to Christ. It happens.

Is it now so strange that the word used as presented above is 'mocking'?
That verse from Isaiah 28 was smack in the middle of a woeful prophecy against a rebellious people. So, why would it be all sugar coated for modern day use? Please, men, think about it. I know that i was hiding behind the door when the brains were handed out but I didn't see any of you there!

let's read on in Chapter 28 verses 14 to 18. you can go further if you want but you will probably see what the 'atmosphere' is surrounding that prophecy and i would definitely think we all should sit up and take notice because if this also applies to today, do not think the LORD will be a pet kitten, in His Judgement. (rulers basically told the people what to do and what to worship and what to believe ... and they didn't take too kindly to any who would resist or speak otherwise - it was their doctrine that they ruled by, men)

Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.


Bless you ....><>

For interest and perhaps some clarification below are a few different translations of the verse in question, presently, in our tongue.

New Living Translation
So now God will have to speak to his people through foreign oppressors who speak a strange language!

International Standard Version
Very well, then, through the mouths of foreigners and foreign languages the LORD will speak to this people

NET Bible
For with mocking lips and a foreign tongue he will speak to these people.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The LORD will speak to these people. He will mock them by speaking in a foreign language.

JPS Tanakh 1917
For with stammering lips and with a strange tongue Shall it be spoken to this people;

Young's Literal Translation
For by scorned lip, and by another tongue, Doth He speak unto this people.
------------------------------------------------------------------
when we understand the context the individual words make more sense, but we must be careful to not try to use little snippets of Scripture to justify our present position and certainly should never condemn or judge another if he does the same... on this forum or elsewhere.
 
Active Member
I'm reopening this thread, even as this topic seems to have continued on a separate thread on this topic.
Please be conscious of who we are talking with and to. Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus.
As I've stated in another thread. You don't have to agree, but please let you communication be in the Love of Christ Jesus
For even as our own words may pass away in time, our Lord's will not and He called us to Love each other.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Moderator
Nick
<><
Thank you.

My concern is the evidence of supernatural tongue that has been in the world before Pentecost and was present in those days and still exists up to today which is not the real God's gift of tongues of other men's lips to speak unto the people that came at Pentecost in declaring the wonderful works of God in the native tongue to devout Jews visiting Jerusalem from every kingdom on the earth.

Since the Lord is calling sinners out of the world to Himself, how can God's gift of tongues switch mode and then mimic the world's supernatural tongue which is vain & profane babbling nonsense because it does not come with interpretation if sinners are to depart from that work of evil?

John 7:7 The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that the works thereof are evil.

John 15:18 If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. 19 If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 20 Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also.

I believe in God's gift of tongues as prophesied as a means for God to speak unto the people, and since we are to not believe every spirit but test them per the apostle John ( 1 John 4:1 KJV ) then he must also be warning us to test the tongues too.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world........5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Why show the distinction between the Spirit of Truth and the spirit of error in how each speaks unless the Spirit of Truth speaks TO the world where the spirit of error speaks as OF the world as though we can test the tongues that way too? Since no lie can be of the truth, then how can tongues for private use be of the real God's gift of tongues for speaking unto the people when the world is speaking in that way in tongues? I know this statement can only be confirmed by the Lord Jesus Christ in normal prayer as we are to prove everything by Him.

We desire fluid conversation between ourselves in understanding one another, so why would God be any different all of a sudden in speaking to us for edification privately for why His gift of tongues will come with interpretation in the assembly?

I really think tongue speakers are taking verses out of context in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter in trying to prove that tongues can be used privately when Paul was trying to prove why prophesy is better than tongues because tongues is not a stand alone gift for any believer to have is why His gift of tongues has to come with interpretation for that tongue to be understood by the tongue speaker to be edified for that tongue to be fruitful to the tongue speaker.
 
Least amongst the Best
Staff Member
Greetings again,

may I interject here, quickly?
What you wrote above this post @JesusIs4Me is enough to start a riot with some here and elsewhere if ever they were to hear it but I would like to point something out that I see is a completely different take on the subject of tongues.
Before anyone has a fit about what JesusIs4Me wrote, and before you go ape over anything I write, i want you to know that none of you know my background concerning tongues nor my searching and waiting... so before you attempt online stoning, remember that the Lord died for me, too!

May I ask, what language or tongue did Jesus and His Apostles speak?
Aramaic? Greek? Hebrew?
I don't know, do any of you?
I imagine that Hebrew was spoken in and around the Temple but not necessarily. The Book of Daniel was in Aramaic not Hebrew as was another book in the Old Testament. The time of Christ was after many years of other invasions and reigns of peoples of different tongues and a lot of the people had grown up learning the spoken language of the day. Not too different from the children of immigrants today grow up speaking the language of the country they grow up in.

What matters to us, though, is not that the language spoken by Peter or Paul or Mary was this or that, but that we speak a totally awkward and different tongue altogether to them and the people to whom the prophecies regarding tongues was given.
Do you know what?
I am convinced that every one of you when talking about the Christ and talking and singing His praise are doing so exactly as the prophecy said!
Want to know something else, really mind blowing?

We NEED interpreters! Seriously. And as the days go on, we really need them because there are lots of false interpretations and lots of private interpretations oozing out all over the world.

Back in the days we like to quote we miss another Scripture.... they read the Scriptures - aloud, 1Timothy 4:13. We don't usually see/hear more than a verse or two before or during a 'service' today. Perhaps if we could begin to see what was being said in the light
of the context of the day and then apply it to today.

The message of the Gospel is no longer confined to the Jewish language but is spoken in many unknown tongues to them. Remember it was written to them in the same way some of you like to remember that Paul was trying only to get order for those people and wasn't actually saying anything that applies to us... unless of course we get a little disorderly.
Think and pray about it, please.

So, if we are all speaking say, english? and a foreigner who knows not the english tongue comes in, what will they understand unless one interprets?
and let's say an unbeliever who hasn't got a clue about Christianity and all it's phrases, comes in to a meeting .. how will they know what is spoken unless someone is able to explain it to them in terms they understand???

If some of us and others from around the globe went to Jerusalem and all started praising the Lord in our different tongues, what would the tourists think... we're all drunk, perhaps? But do you know what... the LORD wanted the Gospel spoken in every land, so that is why we can speak it now in our own other tongue.
It really is that simple.
The other option would be that we would have to learn Hebrew or Aramaic or Greek or whatever they spoke back then.... which would be mighty hard since hundreds and hundreds of scholars have spent hundreds and hundreds of years trying to understand properly not only the written language of those days but also the meaning of the words they used in the context of what was written. (do any of you know what 'fair suck of the sauce bottle' means, for example?)
Before you throw this out, chew it over for a few days and start to see how it all fits together in a much more real and useful Scriptural way than what we have been led to believe and take sides over.

I might try to add more later but for now,

we need Holy Ghost interpreters to explain the Scriptures to us. I think someone or two has brought up that we should pray about that.


Bless you ....><>
 
Active Member
Greetings and thank you Brother,

if you/we read on and you perhaps read also before, you will see that the prophecy given is in fact spot on (as always with the LORD).
look for example at Isaiah 33 verse 19
Thou shalt not see a fierce people, a people of a deeper speech than thou canst perceive; of a stammering tongue, that thou canst not understand.

The Children or Tribe of Ephraim were getting told by the LORD what was to become them in Chapter 28 where we also see some much quoted verse about lines and precepts. (we 'would be scholars' are pretty quick to quote verses... that suit us and our doctrine(s) and often completely out of context, missing the more precious message deep with in the Scripture.)
It was not looking good. In Chapter 33 the LORD speaks again.

The enemies in those days were usually quite mocking... remember Goliath, for example? and they did speak in other languages (I am fairly sure that for the most part, the word we use as tongues is actually languages... correct me if I am wrong, please.... I don't mind! and actually prefer if you do!!) so, the translation we have before us in our language might give us a different meaning, if we want it to. Remember how often the people sought after things forbidden and were given to them, at least for a time? Because you have sought after... you will have.. I will send... etc. [Sorry I am not quoting here but I think that if you (anyone) is entering this sort of discussion that they will either know some Scripture or at least do something about it if they don't, like read some Scripture and then, there may be some kindly men who would provide some in in order to clarify, but at present I am relying on your general knowledge].

Let's bring it up to today... since a lot of those who are confused about some Scriptures quote Scriptures to back up a theory that is likewise something of today.
Let's be men and be very real about this... and this is not an exhaustive example, as any who have any memory of the persecutions of the last few hundred years would know and be able to recall, namely peoples like the jihadists, the russians, the germans... etc. Fierce, ruthless, mocking, and cruel... and of another tongue. How would you like to be back a few hundred years ago when the invading people of Rome on a murderous frenzy across Europe were slitting throats and spitting in faces and tearing people apart because they were enemies due to wanting to believe the Bible? No thanks. Were they in error and facing judgement, No. (except in the eyes of Rome) but were the instigators and perpetrators mocking and speaking not only a different language (tongue) but also in a way totally foreign to Christ. It happens.

Is it now so strange that the word used as presented above is 'mocking'?
That verse from Isaiah 28 was smack in the middle of a woeful prophecy against a rebellious people. So, why would it be all sugar coated for modern day use? Please, men, think about it. I know that i was hiding behind the door when the brains were handed out but I didn't see any of you there!

let's read on in Chapter 28 verses 14 to 18. you can go further if you want but you will probably see what the 'atmosphere' is surrounding that prophecy and i would definitely think we all should sit up and take notice because if this also applies to today, do not think the LORD will be a pet kitten, in His Judgement. (rulers basically told the people what to do and what to worship and what to believe ... and they didn't take too kindly to any who would resist or speak otherwise - it was their doctrine that they ruled by, men)

Wherefore hear the word of the LORD, ye scornful men, that rule this people which is in Jerusalem.

Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.


Bless you ....><>

For interest and perhaps some clarification below are a few different translations of the verse in question, presently, in our tongue.

New Living Translation
So now God will have to speak to his people through foreign oppressors who speak a strange language!

International Standard Version
Very well, then, through the mouths of foreigners and foreign languages the LORD will speak to this people

NET Bible
For with mocking lips and a foreign tongue he will speak to these people.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
The LORD will speak to these people. He will mock them by speaking in a foreign language.

JPS Tanakh 1917
For with stammering lips and with a strange tongue Shall it be spoken to this people;

Young's Literal Translation
For by scorned lip, and by another tongue, Doth He speak unto this people.
------------------------------------------------------------------
when we understand the context the individual words make more sense, but we must be careful to not try to use little snippets of Scripture to justify our present position and certainly should never condemn or judge another if he does the same... on this forum or elsewhere.
Thank you, brother, for trying to explain that to me in application. I still having trouble accepting it as being done in that spirit on Pentecost when those who heard the disciples speak to them in their native tongue, the disciples were declaring the wonderful works of God to them.

Then there was this prophesy about how Jesus would speak unto the people when He had come.

Isaiah 42:1Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

He has rebuked the proud Pharisees, but in righteous anger. Maybe I am missing a scenario where He has done it in a mocking manner towards sinners.

Anyway... I am wondering if modern day scholars are missing out on a more apt term for stammering in how it was actually used and for what He had meant in that verse.
 
Active Member
Greetings again,

may I interject here, quickly?
What you wrote above this post @JesusIs4Me is enough to start a riot with some here and elsewhere if ever they were to hear it but I would like to point something out that I see is a completely different take on the subject of tongues.
Before anyone has a fit about what JesusIs4Me wrote, and before you go ape over anything I write, i want you to know that none of you know my background concerning tongues nor my searching and waiting... so before you attempt online stoning, remember that the Lord died for me, too!

posting this now before any wild reactions against the previous post get underway... I shall now be writing the rest... stay tuned.
Dear brother Bear,

I understand.

If someone came in here and stated that they heard God spoke to him but it was running against scripture, I am sure he would be offended too because he wanted to believe that was from God as that supernatural encounter was personal to him. And if he confesses that he hears Him daily and more than once a day, speaking those things that opposes what is written in scripture.. would every one be polite and say nothing? I am sure someone would be polite to say nothing, but not every one.

The same with scripture since scripture cannot go against scripture when reproving any one of false teaching in our everyday language..

If there was a supernatural tongue being practiced back in Paul's days where one of the Roman form of worship had devotees to a goddess spoke in tongues that no one else can understand while only a few priests would interpret that tongue, ( which I believe is just nonsense because no foreigner was meant to understand it and that their interpreters were just winging or faking the interpretation where the messages I am sure conveniently serves them in keeping followers to that idol ). how can Paul keep them out from bringing in their practice and their kind of tongues unless God's gift of tongues could never mimic that kind of vain & profane babbling?

I suppose if I was to be a tongue advocate and point to 1 Corinthians 12th chapter where Paul did mention those who got carried away by dumb idols that if they do not curse the Lord Jesus Christ but instead confess Him, then they must not be unbelievers, but Jesus did point out those who profess Him and yet were workers of iniquity in Matthew 7:21-23 KJV and they were all claiming to be prophesying in His name, casting out devils in His name, and doing wonderful works in His name, and so I don't believe that defense can fly for discernment for when tongues comes without interpretation and thus assumed to be for private use.

Especially when in that chapter about those gifts of the Spirit, Paul maintains the testimony that all believers were to have and that is only one drink of the One Spirit that we all have been baptized by ( 1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV ) to signify that there is no receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation with "evidence of tongues" which contrary to 1 Corinthians 14:22 KJV for using tongues as a sign towards the believers for receiving that extra calling for what some call as the second blessing.

I understand that some tongue speakers do not claim receiving the tongues for private use by that extra calling or by that extra encounter which 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 KJV warns us about.

Now if any one can expound on what I have shared for a mere moment to be impartial as an advocate for the defense of tongues for private use, I do not mind that. How am I going to be reproved if I am wrong other than by the scripture?
 
Active Member
The point that bothers me is when a sinner comes out of that world and that kind of tongues like mediums have had, but now are saved; how can that convert know if that spirit that brought that tongue of the world has departed from him if God's gift of tongues for speaking unto the people, suddenly start coming without interpretation that other believers assure him that it is for private use too? Indeed, how can the other believers whom had not come out of such worlds believe that convert that he no longer does his former practices or that he has not slipped back into his former ways? How can that convert know it is not of those other spirits when John warned believers not to believe every spirit, but test them?

Please understand that I believe in God's gift of tongues for speaking unto the people that it will come with interpretation in the assembly as the Holy Spirit will not do anything in half measures, especially for the tongue speaker when God is speaking to him for his edification. That seems to be the only line of discernment that would give any believer peace in a world in testing the spirits where there has been a supernatural tongue but is just vain & profane babbling nonsense that it can never come with interpretation, because God is not manifesting it when the prophesy dictated it as for speaking unto the people.

Would the tongue speakers lose anything if they shun that tongue for private use to pray & sing & give thanks normally and read the scriptures in the KJV for their edification as other non-tongue speakers do? I don't believe so.

I confess that I am highly judgmental about tongues for private use because if any tongue speaker claims they have used tongues to speak unto the people, but they also have used it privately, I cannot believe they have God's actual gift of tongues because that to me is confusing for God to switch the mode for what He had prophesied tongues will be doing.

As another example as a momentary advocate In defense for tongue speakers today I could believe that a believer may have God's actual gift of tongues but are misled by other spirits to use their kind of tongues privately, but I believe God would use tongues and interpret that tongue in that assembly of believers to reprove them for believing that His tongues can be used privately if God would even bother to manifest His gift of tongues in that assembly. He would not ignore that.

The same goes for the Catholic Charismatic churches. Most Pentecostals/Charismatics know that catholicism is not of the Lord at all, and so why would God manifest tongues in an assembly and yet ignore that grave offense for all that time?

That is why tongues for private use cannot be God's gift of tongues, but this is happening and it is real....as it does make me wonder if this prophesy is coming true ( 1 Timothy 4:1-2 KJV )

I know that all tongue speakers that profess Him are saved; albeit some seem to apply Matthew 7:21-23 KJV as if they that profess Him are not saved when they were just being denied attendance to the Marriage Supper for being workers of iniquity ( Luke 13:24-30 KJV ) but He still abides, even in former believers ( 2 Timothy 2:12-13 KJV ).

So I read John 10:1-5 KJV as following a stranger's voice ( tongues for private use ) for climbing up another way in getting that tongue when there is no other calling to receive Him again apart from salvation ( 2 Thessalonians 2:13-15 KJV ), but because they were of faith, they are His and why that fold of sheep that did not follow His voice but a stranger's voice will be made to hear His voice after the great tribulation as King of kings to be of the one fold that follow His voice. ( John 10:16 KJV )
 
Least amongst the Best
Staff Member
Greetings,

Thank you, brother, for trying to explain that to me in application. I still having trouble accepting it as being done in that spirit on Pentecost when those who heard the disciples speak to them in their native tongue, the disciples were declaring the wonderful works of God to them.

Then there was this prophesy about how Jesus would speak unto the people when He had come.

Isaiah 42:1Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. 2 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 3 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 4 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law. 5 Thus saith God the Lord, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein: 6 I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; 7 To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

He has rebuked the proud Pharisees, but in righteous anger. Maybe I am missing a scenario where He has done it in a mocking manner towards sinners.

Anyway... I am wondering if modern day scholars are missing out on a more apt term for stammering in how it was actually used and for what He had meant in that verse.
I am sorry if this appears to be a long shot, but given our understanding of the religious men of Israel of that day who were not supportive of Jesus and His teachings, to hear, in the name of Jesus, so many people calling (?) out their praise to the Lord in their own language (instead of the carefully guarded language of the leaders against Jesus) would be quite mocking towards them. They did get a little upset by this new phenomenon called the Church. Remember these people used to tear their clothes etc. Fairly passionate bunch compared to us dignified people of today, cough cough.
If you see it from the priests etc point of view, those scaly Christians were taking the mickey out of them.... how dare they! We gave them no right nor permission to say all those things about God and we can't even understand them... talk about frustrating.
In the days when Rome persecuted those who translated the Bible out from Latin and gave it to the people to read for themselves, they acted very much as if they were being mocked. They didn't like it one bit! Imagine all those common people knowing (or thinking that they can know) as much about God as we do!! They got upset about Peter and another, noting they were unlearned men.
Imagine an ordinary chap like me going into some big leading headquarters of one of the modern denominations and showing them the Scriptures that suggest contrary to what they believe. They might be polite about it... now imagine if I did it in public at one of their big days (remember that Pentecost was pretty big on the calendar for the proud in town).. I would probably be physically removed and almost certainly labelled as possessed because it knocks down the security walls we build for our own flesh to relax or hide in.


Bless you ....><>
 
Active Member
Some may see me being overly concern about this prophesy happening to the body of Christ ( 1 Timothy 4:1-2 KJV )

Many that claim tongues for private use usually testify having received it by what they believe was the encounter with the Holy Spirit coming over them, bringing that kind of tongues for private use. ( 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 KJV ) I did not see them test the spirits at all but just automatically believed it was of God. 1 John 4:1 KJV 1 John 4:4 KJV

The church at Thyatira was given this warning for committing spiritual fornication to repent or else be cast into the great tribulation as they utter the depths of Satan for which they speak.

Revelation 2:21 And I gave her space to repent of her fornication; and she repented not.22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.23 And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.24 But unto you I say, and unto the rest in Thyatira, as many as have not this doctrine, and which have not known the depths of Satan, as they speak; I will put upon you none other burden.25 But that which ye have already hold fast till I come..

I believe to hold fast is towards the traditions taught of us that we had received the sanctification of the Spirit and the belief of the truth at the calling of the gospel and no other.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

Is it Christ's love to alert.. to bring to awareness... to show concern for the body of Christ that may be going along with the flow, just believing every spirit coming over them after salvation is of God? They are my brothers & sisters. How can I not?..
 
Active Member
Greetings,



I am sorry if this appears to be a long shot, but given our understanding of the religious men of Israel of that day who were not supportive of Jesus and His teachings, to hear, in the name of Jesus, so many people calling (?) out their praise to the Lord in their own language (instead of the carefully guarded language of the leaders against Jesus) would be quite mocking towards them. They did get a little upset by this new phenomenon called the Church. Remember these people used to tear their clothes etc. Fairly passionate bunch compared to us dignified people of today, cough cough.
If you see it from the priests etc point of view, those scaly Christians were taking the mickey out of them.... how dare they! We gave them no right nor permission to say all those things about God and we can't even understand them... talk about frustrating.
In the days when Rome persecuted those who translated the Bible out from Latin and gave it to the people to read for themselves, they acted very much as if they were being mocked. They didn't like it one bit! Imagine all those common people knowing (or thinking that they can know) as much about God as we do!! They got upset about Peter and another, noting they were unlearned men.
Imagine an ordinary chap like me going into some big leading headquarters of one of the modern denominations and showing them the Scriptures that suggest contrary to what they believe. They might be polite about it... now imagine if I did it in public at one of their big days (remember that Pentecost was pretty big on the calendar for the proud in town).. I would probably be physically removed and almost certainly labelled as possessed because it knocks down the security walls we build for our own flesh to relax or hide in.


Bless you ....><>
Dear Brother Bear,

I have heard of someone testifying at one time how he or she began speaking in tongues in a Baptist church, but it was not coming with interpretation, for which the preacher privately spoke to the believer who seemingly refuse to repent by shunning speaking in tongues in service as it was disruptive, that person got excommunicated out of the church.

But I have not heard any one being excommunicated for saying that they use tongues for private use... and I mean really in private and not showing it off in the assembly when it was disruptive as coming without interpretation. Course, I do not have access to every church in the world, but I have not heard of any such excommunication based on that.

However, I can see why I would get banned because of what I am sharing by the scripture can knock down the security walls of some tongue speakers that do not like the idea that there was a supernatural tongue in the world which was vain & profane babbling nonsense before God's gift of tongues for speaking unto the people had come at Pentecost, that the OP would even remotely expose using that tongue for private use as not of Him at all when they value that supernatural tongue personally.

I do not see any loss if tongue speakers shun tongues for private use when they can get edification from the written word in the KJV, and pray and worship normally with the rest of us non-tongue speakers.

Of course, if they did it Biblically in the assembly in coming with interpretation and do tongues in private and I do mean really in private, then who would know? God would, but there would be no discussion on it if tongues were really meant to be for the tongue speaker in private. But I do not believe it because it spills into the assembly and indirectly divides the body of Christ and promote another calling for believers to seek after so they can have that same "closeness" with God and speak as they do.

Why would God allow the Holy Spirit to use tongues for uttering His own intercessions when it goes against scripture in how the Holy Spirit speaks ( John 16:13 KJV ), thus showing favoritism in the body of Christ?

How can non-tongue speaker not feel slighted by God for not having that prayer tongue? Doesn't the Holy Spirit has any intercessions for us to utter to God if tongues was for that use? So.. not only does that bring insecurities but it divides the body of Christ.

So what does the sympathetic tongue speaker do? They promote directly or indirectly by their testimony for seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation by seeking to receive Him by a sign of tongues even though tongues were not to serve as a sign towards the believers for proof of receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation 1 Corinthians 14:22 KJV & 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 KJV

And it gets worse, when some believers do not receive anything at all, and when they see others that seek and receive, those that have not received can start condemning themselves as not saved ( since there are tongue speakers out that do say if you do not speak in tongues, you do not have the Holy Spirit, and therefore you are not saved ) or that God does not love them at all.

Is there any one in this forum that believes that a believer can only receive the Holy Spirit at the laying on of hands by a Pentecostal? I would not mind it if a moderator or the administrator would ask that question in a poll if you guys think they may be timid in answering that question to someone in authority, but it does go to show why I believe tongues does offer a lot of insecurities to non-tongue speakers, but not in the way you had posted though, brother Bear.
 
Active Member
I do not know about this site's at the link below of their statement of belief or all that they teach and so please do not think I am endorsing everything shared at that site at all.

What I am interested in showing is the secular reference to non-Christian supernatural tongues that were in the days before Paul.

Speaking in Tongues: Non-Christians speak in tongues, too

The Oracle at Delphi started in the 400s BC, when Greece was at its strongest. It continued into the Roman era as if it was a parody of its former self, so the members of the churches of Greece and Asia Minor would have been very familiar with how Delphi worked. It was a shrine of the Greek god Apollo. In response to someone's questions, a priestess would go into a frenzy and start babbling. An attendant priest would then 'translate' the babble into some glittering generalities that could in some way be understood as an answer. Some of the best-known features of Greek philosophy streamed out from the Oracle's early years (for instance, it bred the saying "Know Yourself"); the great Greek philosophers were very good at finding jewels in waste water. The cult of Dionysis used rhythmic music, whirling dances, alcohol and/or herbal drugs, and magic spells to send peoples' souls out of their body (Greek ek stasis ) and into the presence of whatever deity or sub-deity was involved; this too sometimes caused strange sounds.
There is more at that link if interested but in regards to the article claims of "translation"....

I believe the world's supernatural tongue is just vain & profane babbling and the convenience of translation were just made up, because that same kind of tongue can be found in other religions, idols, and occult where no interpretation is given for that babbling nonsense ( Isaiah 8:19 KJV ).

I really believe Paul was addressing that kind of tongue before getting into God's gift of tongues which is of other men's lips to speak unto the people ( 1 Corinthians 14:21 KJV ) .

1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

So how can Paul keep that kind of tongue out of the assembly? By signifying how God's gift of tongues were to come in the assembly as profiting the body withal with interpretation; ( 1 Corinthians 12:7 KJV ) not individually ( 1 Corinthians 12:19-21 KJV ) where there can be no discernment against the world's tongues. So once again, Paul gave the bottom line on tongues.. as you can see he is trying to draw attention before he does give the bottom line on tongues;

1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Anyway, I believe that since God does want us to prove every thing and abstain from all appearances of evil, then tongue speakers should call on Jesus Christ at that throne of grace for help in discerning the kind of tongue that they have. No one else can convince any one of this matter except Jesus Christ and nobody else can go to Him for you to discern this when each of us need to receive that confirmation from Him directly. I pray that the Lord will lead as many as He would call on this.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

Thank you for your time and patience in reading my just concern for the body of Christ.
 
Loyal Member
I dont know about wizards and witches having tongues but just because they may also speak another language doesnt mean they will be coming to church and faking being a christian, if they are, well dont you think God knows what they are saying anyway?

In book of acts there were some people who tried to buy the holy ghost with money but Peter and Paul threw it back at them. Even anais and saphirra was struck down dead when they tried to lie to the holy ghost.

Testing the spirits...yes we do this. This is why there is a gift of discerning of spirits too, and gifts of interpretation. If you are saved and at salvation God gives you the gift of tongues why would it be from another source. It is good to question and test it to be sure but its not like someone else said oh you saved now go speak in tongues and the person is tongue tied and just makes up something.

If you can praise the Lord and say Jesus is Lord, in english or any other language, that is a sign you have crosed over from unbelief to belief.

Witches and wizards actually cannot even say Jesus is Lord. You will notice they cannot speak of Jesus in those direct terms. They cannot give a testimony that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh.

People that try and fake tongues will be found out, and besides since we do have interpretation not sure what your issue is. Our spirits cry when we are adopted 'abba!' Which means 'Father' this is what happens. Do you know when you are born naturally what happens? Well when you were a baby how did the doctor or midwife know you were alive and breathing? When you cried out! How do the parents know that child is theirs? When baby's first words are 'mama!' Or "dada' when they see your face! It could be in whatever language but the child still had to speak, maybe its a babble to us, and maybe it isnt perfect but its the spirit crying out. It's like that.
 
Loyal Member
1 Corinthians 14:20 Brethren, be not children in understanding: howbeit in malice be ye children, but in understanding be men. 21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Anyway, I believe that since God does want us to prove every thing and abstain from all appearances of evil, then tongue speakers should call on Jesus Christ at that throne of grace for help in discerning the kind of tongue that they have. No one else can convince any one of this matter except Jesus Christ and nobody else can go to Him for you to discern this when each of us need to receive that confirmation from Him directly. I pray that the Lord will lead as many as He would call on this.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us.

Thank you for your time and patience in reading my just concern for the body of Christ.
If everyone were to stop using every gift that they received, because someone might be offended, what do we suppose God would think about that? Who would be doing any of God's work?

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." Rom 11:29

As for proving my gift, for me, I have done just that in my communication [two way] over the years with God. I don't speak in tongues for anyone else but God. I have discussed this same topic many times in many places with many people having a lot less charity on the subject than you. I thank you for that.

If I have not already said it, the proof of the gift is in me and in my walk with God. I am no quite yet to the point where I am praying without ceasing or rejoicing in the Lord always, but with God's help I am working on it and using His gift to me is part of my walk. I do talk to God every day and not only in an unknown tongue. Over the years since receiving the baptism of the Holy Ghost and the gift of tongues in 1976 I have grown closer to Him. The tongues are an integral part of my relationship with Him. When He tells me it is no longer needed then will I heed Him.

I have not stayed with God by walking in a continuous delusion as you seem to want to say. A person walks in delusion because he does not have or he has lost the love of truth [II Thess 2:10-11]. This means that the person must continuously return to the bottom [the lowest room (Luke 14:9] and each time if there is any re-lifting lets it be God that does the lifting. Believe me when I say I have returned to the lowest room and try to do daily.

Should I make my walk with God equal yours? We may both members of the Body of Christ but we are not the same member with the same function. God knows! Let Him make any changes or adjustments needed when and if they are really needed in any member according to Him:

"But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him.
And if they were all one member, where were the body?
But now are they many members, yet but one body.
And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you." I Cor 12:18-21

I am not going ahead with speaking in tongues because of me, but because of Him. How can I not use what He has given me according to the Way that He directs me.

"To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers." John 10:3-5

I am one of His sheep and have been for many years now. I do know and hear His voice and I try to leave others to similar follow wherever His voice leads them. All of His sheep do hear Him and follow Him.

Remember what the apostle Paul wrote:

"Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man?
I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.
So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase." I Cor 3:5-7

God may use a man to provide someone an increase, but be sure nonetheless that God alone gives increases.
 
Least amongst the Best
Staff Member
@amadeus2

Greetings,

you said this:

Who would be doing any of God's work?

"For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance." Rom 11:29

As for proving my gift, for me, I have done just that in my communication [two way] over the years with God.
and others have similarly here and there over the threads.
I read this the other night and felt impressed I should share it with you, for building up, not tearing down:

from Romans 11:33-36
How great are God's riches! How deep are His wisdom and knowledge! Who can explain His decisions? Who can understand His ways?
As the scripture says, "Who knows the mind of the Lord? Who is able to give Him advice?
Who has ever given Him anything, so that He had to pay it back?"
For all things were created by Him, and all things exist through Him and for Him.

To God be the glory forever! Amen.

Wonderful words!

then continuing on in Chapter twelve;
So then, my friends, because of God's great mercy to us I appeal to you: offer yourselves as a living sacrifice to God, dedicated to His service and pleasing to Him. This is the true worship that you should offer.
Do not conform yourselves to the standards of this world, but let God transform you inwardly by a complete change of your mind. Then you will be able to know the will of God - what is good and is pleasing to Him and is perfect.

And because of God's gracious gift to me I say to every one of you: Do not think of yourself more highly than you should. Instead, be modest in your thinking, and judge yourself according to the amount of faith that God has given you.

We have many parts in the one body, and all these parts have different functions. In the same way, though we are many, we are one body in union with Christ, and we are all joined to each other as different parts of one body.

So we are to use our different gifts in accordance with the grace that God has given us.

  • If our gift is to speak God's message, we should do it according to the faith that we have;
  • if it is to serve, we should serve;
  • if it is to teach, we should teach;
  • if it is to encourage others, we should do so.
  • Whoever shares with others should do it generously;
  • whoever has authority should work hard;
  • whoever shows kindness to others should do it cheerfully.
  • Love must be completely sincere.
  • Hate what is evil, hold on to what is good.
  • Love one another warmly as Christians, and be eager to show respect for one another.
  • Work hard and do not be lazy.
  • Serve the Lord with a heart full of devotion.
  • Let your hope keep you joyful, be patient in your troubles, and pray at all times.
  • Share your belongings with your needy fellow Christians, and open your homes to strangers. Ask God to bless those who persecute you - yes, ask him to bless, not to curse.
  • Be happy with those who are happy, weep with those who weep.
  • Have the same concern for everyone.
  • Do not be proud, but accept humble duties.
  • Do not think of yourselves as wise.
  • If someone has done you wrong, do not repay him with a wrong.
  • Try to do what everyone considers to be good.
  • Do everything possible on your part to live in peace with everybody.

Never take revenge, my friends, but instead let God's anger do it. For the scripture says, "I will take revenge, I will pay back, says the Lord." Instead, as the scripture says: "If your enemies are hungry, feed them; if they are thirsty, give them a drink; for by doing this you will make them burn with shame."

Do not let evil defeat you; instead, conquer evil with good.


Bless you ....><>
 
Loyal Member
Greetings,



I am sorry if this appears to be a long shot, but given our understanding of the religious men of Israel of that day who were not supportive of Jesus and His teachings, to hear, in the name of Jesus, so many people calling (?) out their praise to the Lord in their own language (instead of the carefully guarded language of the leaders against Jesus) would be quite mocking towards them. They did get a little upset by this new phenomenon called the Church. Remember these people used to tear their clothes etc. Fairly passionate bunch compared to us dignified people of today, cough cough.
If you see it from the priests etc point of view, those scaly Christians were taking the mickey out of them.... how dare they! We gave them no right nor permission to say all those things about God and we can't even understand them... talk about frustrating.
In the days when Rome persecuted those who translated the Bible out from Latin and gave it to the people to read for themselves, they acted very much as if they were being mocked. They didn't like it one bit! Imagine all those common people knowing (or thinking that they can know) as much about God as we do!! They got upset about Peter and another, noting they were unlearned men.
Imagine an ordinary chap like me going into some big leading headquarters of one of the modern denominations and showing them the Scriptures that suggest contrary to what they believe. They might be polite about it... now imagine if I did it in public at one of their big days (remember that Pentecost was pretty big on the calendar for the proud in town).. I would probably be physically removed and almost certainly labelled as possessed because it knocks down the security walls we build for our own flesh to relax or hide in.


Bless you ....><>
Not to mention, how scripture was kept in latin for over a thousand years, so that only priests and highly educated people could read it and the rest of us had to trust them on what they said... but... there was one very good thing about it, faith was greater due to it, and more trust in the Holy Spirit for guidance... but also greater ignorance and sin due to that ignorance. Good and bad, but I think having scripture available for ALL to know and understand is what GOD wants regardless of what any man wants.
 
Loyal Member
@Br. Bear

Thank you for your post and kind words. It is really not something I want to argue with anyone. I want what God wants and I know that He is the One who speaks to people's hearts to change them if anyone does. While I usually try to avoid arguing, neither do I want someone young in the Lord to not hear the whole Word of God on a subject when I recognize someone has a strong bias. Not everyone speaks in tongues in their prayer life as I do, but that does not mean they are missing out with God. God works with everyone as He works with them to accomplish what He wants to accomplish with each one. He alone is the judge.

Give God the glory !
 
Least amongst the Best
Staff Member
[COLOR=#000066]The way of a fool is right in his own eyes:
but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.[/COLOR]
Proverbs 12:15


Greetings,

I, too, am not into arguing.

you mentioned
prayer life
May I ask what this is?

Is this something from Scripture or is it a coined word that gets used nonetheless? [interesting expression that, 'coined word'. It reminds me of mass produced coins for circulation in order for the general public to engage in merchant activity complete with rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's][As with stamps, too!]

By using a term such as 'prayer life' are we then able to say things that fit what we are believing and wanting to convey to others? In the context in which you use it here, it lends some weight to what you are saying. The proviso is that I must accept this idea of a prayer life.
Is there such a thing or is it more a generalisation of what we want to express?

What is our life? Besides a vapour, perhaps a prayer life? Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life. A prayer life? The life that i now live... a prayer life? Can you see some of the difficulty that can arise from using such terminology?
Now, given that we are meant to be one with the Father and therefore, as He is our Father, one with one another in Him, how can it become my prayer life as distinct from the other man's? It is the same Spirit and Lord and Faith that we abide in as Christians and followers of the Way, so how do we have one with a prayer life of their own and another with a different flavoured prayer life... or, is it something that is like beauty? It lies in the eyes of the beholder.


Grace and Peace,


Bless you ....><>
 
Last edited:
Active Member
[COLOR=#000066]The way of a fool is right in his own eyes:
but he that hearkeneth unto counsel is wise.[/COLOR]
Proverbs 12:15


[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Greetings,

I, too, am not into arguing.

you mentioned
May I ask what this is?

Is this something from Scripture or is it a coined word that gets used nonetheless? [interesting expression that, 'coined word'. It reminds me of mass produced coins for circulation in order for the general public to engage in merchant activity complete with rendering unto Caesar what is Caesar's][As with stamps, too!]

By using a term such as 'prayer life' are we then able to say things that fit what we are believing and wanting to convey to others? In the context in which you use it here, it lends some weight to what you are saying. The proviso is that I must accept this idea of a prayer life.
Is there such a thing or is it more a generalisation of what we want to express?

What is our life? Besides a vapour, perhaps a prayer life? Jesus is the Way the Truth and the Life. A prayer life? The life that i now live... a prayer life? Can you see some of the difficulty that can arise from using such terminology?
Now, given that we are meant to be one with the Father and therefore, as He is our Father, one with one another in Him, how can it become my prayer life as distinct from the other man's? It is the same Spirit and Lord and Faith that we abide in as Christians and followers of the Way, so how do we have one with a prayer life of their own and another with a different flavoured prayer life... or, is it something that is like beauty? It lies in the eyes of the beholder.


Grace and Peace,


Bless you ....><>[/COLOR]
[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)][/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Our prayer life is separate from the Holy Spirit in His making silent intercessions for us. This reference below which is correctly translated in the KJV is the promise for every believer and thus the vanity of insisting tongues is necessary for prayer life is exposed as not of Him at all when even His groanings cannot be uttered.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]By the Son of God at that throne of grace in searching our hearts ( Hebrews 4:12-16 KJV ) Whom is the One that knows the mind of the Spirit, is the One that intercedes for the saints according to the will of God BECAUSE the Son is the only One that answers prayers so that the Father may be glorified in the Son ( John 14:13-14 ) for answers to prayers. The Holy spirit does not answer prayers, but instead gives credit and glory to answers to prayers to Jesus Christ as stated in John 16:14-15 ) That is why the Father knows everything before we, ourselves, ask anything in prayer.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]If every one read all the versions of John 16:13 KJV John 16:13 ESV John 16:13 NIV John 16:13 NASB the message is clear that the Holy Spirit cannot speak of Himself, nor speak on His own authority, or on His own initiative and thus the error in Romans 8:26-27 in most modern Bibles should be evident that the Holy Spirit CANNOT use God's gift of tongues for uttering His own intercessions.... that God's gift of tongues is only for speaking unto the people in their native tongue for why it will come with interpretation when God's gift of tongues is manifested in the assembly.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=rgb(0, 0, 0)]No gift of the Holy Spirit is obtained by seeking another baptism with the Holy Ghost apart from salvation as 1 Corinthians 12:13 KJV reproves such notions and 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 KJV warns against such a phenomenon as not being of Him..[/COLOR]
 
Active Member
Another site providing evidence of supernatural ecstatic tongues before Pentecost;

Pagan Origin of Modern Tongues

" But this practice is not only a recent phenomenon, but was common in pagan worship long before Christ came. Robert G. Gromacki, in The Modern Tongues Movement (pp 5-10), documents the history of “speaking in tongues” in antiquity. Some of these ecstatic babbling were reported in the “Report of Wenamon” (about 1100 BC), Plato’s Dialogues (5th century BC), and Virgil’s Aeneid (1st century BC). The Graeco-Roman mystery religions before and after the Christian era most probably practiced these babbling utterances. "

We are to prove all things; and abstain from all appearances of evil. With His help.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil. 23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. 24 Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it. 25 Brethren, pray for us. KJV

We are not to believe every spirit but test them and the tongues they bring.

1 John 4:1Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. 4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. 5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. 6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. KJV
 

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