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Defining Evidence on Supernatural Tongue Before Pentecost

Discussion in 'Evidence & Prophecy' started by JesusIs4Me, Dec 4, 2017.

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  1. Isaiah 8:19 And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?

    Isaiah 8:19 is the only Biblical evidence that defines supernatural tongue as vain & profane babbling nonsense where it cannot be interpreted.

    Passage from Dr. John R. Rice's book, The Charismatic Movement in linking to Isaiah 8:19 above.

    So there is evidence that there is a supernatural tongue had been in world's religions today like Islam.

    There is also evidence that in some idolatrous practices, they had interpreters for those tongues, but I believe they were faking the interpretation since it was never a language of men.

    Paul touched on this before getting into the gifts of the Spirit although not really addressing that supernatural tongue.

    1 Corinthians 12:1 Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant. 2 Ye know that ye were Gentiles, carried away unto these dumb idols, even as ye were led.

    So we know that there was a supernatural tongue in the world before Pentecost that was just vain & profane babbling nonsense, and that it existed back in Paul's days and still does today.

    Now since it had been prophesied that some shall depart from faith in giving heed to seducing spirits & doctrines of devils; 1 Timothy 4:1-2 and this was why John warned believers not to believe every spirit but test them: ( 1 John 4:1-3 & 2 Corinthians 13:5 ) when any spirit that comes over a believer apart from salvation is the spirit of the antichrist; ( 1 John 4:4 ) because he did reference the supernatural tongue in the world as done by the spirit of error afterwards 1 John 4:5-6 ; then shouldn't believers be more discerning about the kind of tongues they are using today, especially when they assume that because it comes with no interpretation, that it must be a prayer language of the Holy Spirit or for some other private use rather than being of other men's lips to speak unto the people ( 1 Corinthians 14:21 )?

    If most tongue speakers take note as to when and how saved believers got that kind of tongues for "private use" running contrary to 1 Corinthians 12:7 since the purpose was to profit the body withal and not individually, it usually comes with a testimony of receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation. Such a testimony ignores the warning of 2 Corinthians 11:3-4 as their testimony lead others to heed this as another calling to seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation while seeking it by a sign of tongues which opposes 1 Corinthians 12:22 since tongues were never to serve as a sign or proof towards the believers but to the unbelievers.

    Indeed, 1 Corinthians 12:13 has Paul testifying to only one drink of the One Spirit by which we were ALL baptized by.

    1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    Most tongue speakers today refer to another drink and another calling by which they had received that kind of tongue. Some believers will try to make it or even faking it as the real God's gift of tongues by guessing at what that tongue is saying and wing the interpretation by the "feel" of it. That is not how to interpret God's gift of tongues. No way. That is too much what the fake interpreters were doing with that vain tongue in their idol worship in Paul's days.

    I believe the real God's gift of tongues is of other men's lips to speak unto the people as it is manifested to profit the body withal, it will come with interpretation in the assembly. Prophesy is the gift to seek after; not tongues; and Paul did not tell them to seek the gift of prophesy by seeking to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation either.

    I know that tongue speakers will go tooth and nail taking verses out of context in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter as if to prove Paul was actually endorsing tongues for private use when that same tongue talked about in that chapter has to come with interpretation for the tongue speaker to understand in order for that tongue to be fruitful to the tongue speaker. That means Paul was comparing tongues by itself against prophesy to show why prophesy is the gift to seek, because tongues is not a stand alone gift for His tongue will come with interpretation to profit the body withal.

    Now I am asking tongue speakers to address scripture that opposes tongues for private use, because how can Paul keep out those idol worshipers of Corinth from the assembly from using their vain tongue?

    How can any born again believer convince the assembly at Corinth that they had repented of their idols and that kind of supernatural tongue if God "mimics" that same kind of tongue?

    How can tongue speaker apply His words below when tongues for private use mimics the tongue that is in the world?

    1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

    Especially when that tongue gained is identified by seeking to receiving the Holy Spirit apart from salvation which is a departure from the faith and the traditions taught of us?

    2 Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ. 15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

    How can modern tongue speakers today ease the concerns of believers that they are not the ones prophesied as falling away from the faith in giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils in 1 Timothy 4:1-2 ?

    I believe that christian tongue speakers are still saved but are in iniquity for how & when they got that tongue, and my concern is legit in why they should shun that vain & profane babbling, pray normally, and no longer seek to receive the Holy Spirit or another infilling apart from salvation, because it goes against the traditions taught of us.
     
  2. Act 2:4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.

    1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.

    My utterance came to me through and by the Holy Ghost for the first time in 1976. For many years it has been a daily part of my prayer life with God. Do we have to know all of the scriptures for or against or do we simply have to know God and surrender to Him?

    In the beginning it was a babble as an carnal infant begins to speaks in an unintelligible babble. As the baby matures it learns to speak and understand clearly in the human language of those around him... usually his parents. I have been moved away from babbling. I strive now through the lead of the Holy Ghost to live for God 24/7. My witness is not only an occasional testimony in a biased group of people in a church assembly, but in my life style. If I falter I lean more heavily on Him and ask for forgiveness and strength to endure with Him to the end of my course.

    "Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding.
    In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths.Prov 3:5-6

    "Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
    Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
    For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." Matt 11:28-30
     
  3. To witness a move of the Holy Spirit is worth more than all the scholarly knowledge I could ever learn.
     
    amadeus2 likes this.


  4. I understand that this is real to you, but questions will be asked.

    How did the utterance came to you through and by the Holy Ghost? At your salvation or at a later time apart from your salvation?

    How do you apply the truth in His words that the Holy Spirit cannot speak for Himself, but speaks what He hears in John 16:13 KJV? You can check any modern Bible version and they all share the same truth that the Holy Spirit cannot speak on His own authority or on His own accord or on His own initiative; thus distinctly saying He can only speak what He hears as God's gift of tongues can be for nothing else but be of other men's lips to speak into the people. ( 1 Corinthians 14:21 )

    Does that truth testify that He cannot speak for Himself in uttering His own intercessions? Romans 8:26-27 KJV has it right in that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His groanings in verse 26, which is why the One that searches our hearts is Jesus Christ, the Son of God ( Hebrews 4:12-16 KJV ) is the One that knows the mind of the Spirit in giving His intercessions for Him to the Father because there is only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus ( 1 Timothy 2:5 KJV ). Jesus is the Only One at that throne of grace by Whom we have access to God the Father by ( John 14:6 KJV ) This is why it is in according to the will of God.

    Jesus being the only way to come to God the Father and that includes prayer ( John 14:6 KJV ) so that when the Son gives our intercessions and the Spirit's unspeakable intercessions, and His own intercessions to the Father, when the Father says yes to any of those intercessions, only the Son answers the prayers. John 14:13-14 KJV This is done according to the will of God so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers which is why we give thanks to the Father in Jesus's name.

    So the Holy Spirit has intercessions for us but He cannot utter them. Jesus knows the mind of the Spirit to give the unspeakable intercessions of the Spirit's to the Father for Him.

    That is why I do not believe the tongues today used for "prayer life" is of Him, especially when it is gained as most tongue speakers testify of by a second blessing which is a receiving of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation.

    Do you think the disciples at Pentecost had received tongues like a baby's babble in the beginning as well or were they speaking the wonderful works of God in foreign languages to devout Jews from other nations?

    Why would God switched the mode for speaking unto the people and have His tongues comes with interpretation in the assembly, suddenly switch the mode in how the Spirit was to use tongues for by turning it around for personal means of uttering His own intercessions which is supposed to be unspeakable, including His groanings? Isn't that confusion? Then God cannot be the author of that tongue.

    So believers are to test the spirits and prove the tongues because there is a supernatural tongue in the world which is vain & profane babbling which is not of Him at all as evidence shown in the OP.

    I believe in God's gift of tongues which is of other men's lips to speak unto the people. By the scripture and His wisdom in discerning by His words, there is no way the tongues in use today is God's real gift of tongues. There are too many scriptures in the KJV that speaks against the misapplication of His words in 1 Corinthians 14th chapter for trying to justify using tongues privately when ignoring the precedent set in 1 Corinthians 12th chapter that God's gift of tongues were to profit the body withal. 1 Corinthians 12:7 KJV

    Remember beloved? How she applied Romans 5:19 out of context of that chapter by ignoring how that shed blood was applied to believers which is by faith in Jesus Christ in Romans 5:1-2 KJV ? The same is being done here when tongue speakers thinks Paul is describing how cool tongue is by itself in 1 Corinthians 12th chapter but ignoring the precedent set for why and how these gifts would be manifested in teh assembly. It cannot be for personal use for then that would be like saying, I am the eye and I have no need of any other body of Christ. Each tongue speaker can hold their own private service by that supernatural tongue for private use which runs against scripture for how those gifts were to profit the body withal.

    1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.............19 And if they were all one member, where were the body? 20 But now are they many members, yet but one body.21 And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you.

    So there is just cause to test the spirits and prove the tongues especially since sinners are to be called out of the world and away from their spirits and their kind of supernatural tongue nonsense to abtsian from all appearances of evil.

    1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. 22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.

    So by the scriptures, there is no way I can believe God's gift of tongues can be used privately or as a means for the Holy Spirit to utter His own intercessions when we are to stand apart from the world and especially from the supernatural tongue that is in the world which is vain & profane babbling nonsense and hardly a language at all.

    God wants you to pray so that you know what you had prayed for at that throne of grace by way of the Son so that when you receive answers to prayers, you will give genuine thanks to the Father in Jesus's name.

    1 Thessalonians 5:17 Pray without ceasing. 18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.

    Even in worship.

    Ephesians 5:19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

    Colossians 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord. 17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    Did not Paul argue for someone else to interpret the tongue manifested by the Holy Spirit through himself so that tongue would be fruitful to himself as a tongue speaker?

    1 Corinthians 12:6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine? 7 And even things without life giving sound, whether pipe or harp, except they give a distinction in the sounds, how shall it be known what is piped or harped? 8 For if the trumpet give an uncertain sound, who shall prepare himself to the battle? 9 So likewise ye, except ye utter by the tongue words easy to be understood, how shall it be known what is spoken? for ye shall speak into the air. 10 There are, it may be, so many kinds of voices in the world, and none of them is without signification. 11 Therefore if I know not the meaning of the voice, I shall be unto him that speaketh a barbarian, and he that speaketh shall be a barbarian unto me. 12 Even so ye, forasmuch as ye are zealous of spiritual gifts, seek that ye may excel to the edifying of the church. 13 Wherefore let him that speaketh in an unknown tongue pray that he may interpret. 14 For if I pray in an unknown tongue, my spirit prayeth, but my understanding is unfruitful. 15 What is it then? I will pray with the spirit, and I will pray with the understanding also: I will sing with the spirit, and I will sing with the understanding also. 16 Else when thou shalt bless with the spirit, how shall he that occupieth the room of the unlearned say Amen at thy giving of thanks, seeing he understandeth not what thou sayest? 17 For thou verily givest thanks well, but the other is not edified.

    So Paul was exhorting believers that were zealous for spiritual gifts to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts and that was his message when he began to compare tongues by itself against the gift of prophesy because tongues is not a stand alone gift that it has to come with interpretation for it to even be fruitful to the tongue speaker.

    So the tongue edifies as it is fruitful only when interpreted to the tongue speaker.

    If tongues came without interpretation by the practice of having 2 or 3 speak in tongues while another interpret as the same for 2 or 3 prophesy and another judge, someone visiting may stand up and speak out of turn for why there is no interpretation coming and that is why they could tell him to be silent ( 1 Corinthians 14:26-28 ) for he speaks unto himself, meaning he understands what he is saying as God does too but he was speaking in his native foreign tongue which was why interpretation was not coming because his tongue was not manifested by the Holy Spirit.

    From the very first verse of that chapter, Paul was giving the message to believers zealous for spiritual gifts to seek the gift of prophesy over all spiritual gifts. 1 Corinthians 14:1 Paul was explaining why by comparing tongues against prophesy because tongues is not a stand lone gift for any one to use, especially for the tongue speaker that needs interpretation for him to understand the tongue for that tongue to be fruitful to himself.

    So tongue speakers need to go before that throne of grace and asks the Lord Jesus Christ for help in discerning what has been shared here to discern that kind of tongue cannot be of Him for it is confusion when it without interpretation, especially to the tongue speaker all by himself. In context to that chapter, His gift of tongue can edify the tongue speaker when it comes with interpretation but that is why prophesy is the best gift to seek among all spiritual gifts.

    And Paul did not say that to obtain any of those gifts, one has to seek to receive the Holy Spirit apart from salvation for that would be departing from this testimony that all believers were to share and speak the same thing.

    1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

    There is no other filling nor any other calling to be filled by for that would be a departure from the faith for why that tongues does not come with interpretation.

    It seems many who do not testify of that other extra encounter still speak the same kind of apostate tongue gained by that apostate calling, and so one has to test the spirits & prove the tongue still in keeping the faith which is the good fight.

    The good fight is certainly not defending tongues for private use nor defending that other apostate calling to be filled with the Holy Spirit apart from salvation either.
     
  5. So how do you test the spirits? Or do you do it at all? 1 John 4:1 KJV

    Since the spirit of the antichrist is in the world ( 1 John 4:3 KJV ) and you can KNOW the Holy Spirit by Him being in you ( John 14:16-17 KJV ) then any move by the "spirit" outside of you is the spirit of the antichrist.

    The Holy Spirit has no reason to draw attention to Himself by visitations of signs and wonders when His JOB is to keep the spotlight on the Son in testifying of Him in seeking His glory. Only seducing spirits would share in and take the spotlight away from the Son in worship in leading other believers to chase after them to receive them for a sign. Do consider that when you glorify the Holy Spirit by "His moving" among the assembly.

    Participants in the Tornto's Blessings have said that they no longer need the word of God any more. All they need is the Spirit. So emphasis on the supernatural over the word of God is a danger to any saved believer in Christ Jesus as they just set themselves up to believe every spirit that comes over them to be of God again and again and again. The so called feel good expereince causes them to forget that the spirit of the antichrist are seducing spirits. ( 1 Timothy 4:1-2 KJV )
     


  6. So ask! If God be for me, who can be against me? But then again who are you? Jesus I know and the Holy Ghost is in me, but you...? [See Acts 19:15]


    At the same time. One event.


    We eat the raw flesh of Jesus [the scriptures] and the Holy Spirit [the blood of Jesus] quickens it within us bringing it to Life within us:

    "[God]Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." II Cor 3:6

    Your verse:
    "In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord." I Cor 14:21

    Jesus spoke in parables, which correspond to the messages in tongues with interpretations of which Paul wrote. Jesus provided the interpretation for those with "ears to hear".




    Jesus Christ is the Word of God. The scriptures alone are his dead body, but his body was quickened also by the Spirit. It is Jesus that searches our hearts, but without the Holy Spirit, it would be only dead scriptures that we had read or even memorized. The Word of God is Alive in us because of the quickening Spirit.


    I believe I've already answered you on this.


    If you believe that the truth may be discerned by man's logic, you better try again:

    "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26




    What Peter spoke was NOT the prayer language which is my gift, but another gift as per Acts chapter 2.

    The baby's babble has its purpose in the development of human language. God sends us back to babble, because we do not speak or understand His language and our learned language interferes with understanding Him:

    "And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech." Gen 11:1

    "And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
    Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech." Gen 11:6-7

    That was Babel, which like the English word, babble, means confusion. They spoke the same language before God confounded their language to give them a fresh start with Him as with a child:

    "Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein." Mark 10:15

    We call this being born again.



    The confusion is what people had in chapter 11 of Genesis before God confounded their language. Everyone who doesn't know God is confused completely. The gift of tongues is a gift God has given for the moment for His purposes which are described in scripture. They are also types or shadow of perfect communication with God. Jesus spoke in parables rather than unknown tongues, but his parables had the same purpose:

    "Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
    And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
    For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them." Matt 13:13-15

    That is not confusion. It is babble which grows to a language God can understand, which grows to a "face to face" understanding. For the moment as our vision is seen as "Through a glass darkly" [I Cor 13:12] so is our tongues an incomplete or shadowy expression to the reality which we approach when we are able to see Him "face to face".


    There you go again referring to man's logic and what man has found or what man has concluded. Look rather to the scriptures and quickening of the Holy Spirit within you for understanding of Jesus [Truth]:

    "For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
    For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:8-9


    Try again my friend. I have the evidence from God for it is written in my heart by the Holy Spirit as the scriptures have been quickened to me. The evidence is only transferable by God to another person whose heart is open to the power and witness of the Holy Spirit:

    "But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth." Acts 1:8

    If you spent as much time praying over what you read or study in the Bible as you do on all of those other resources, God might open your heart to His Truth. The scientific method may be a good thing for man's ways. The researching of many facts and figures be of great interest to some, but in the end of the matter, what is it the scripture says?

    "And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh." Ecc 12:12



    Each person must grow into that part of the Body of Christ in which he is to function. This requires a person growth. Remember the man who when invited to the wedding feast arrived without a proper garment and was cast outside? Our functions as part of the Body are not the same, but each one is according to what God has determined. When and if a person is ready he will be a part of the functioning Body subject to the Head. Jesus alone is the Head and the blood of that Body is the Holy Spirit.

    "For the body is not one member, but many.
    If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
    And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body?
    If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling?
    But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him." I Cor 12:14-18
     
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  7. @JesusIs4Me

    Continued:
    The testing and prove is done by the Head, which is Jesus, through the Holy Spirit, not by you or by me. I would use great caution about calling a gift of God nonsense.

    " But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
    For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." Matt 12:36-37


    No one needs to believe God's truth to me other than me for the purpose of my function in the Body of Christ. The finger does not command or interpret the function of the toe. That command or interpretation belongs to the Head, which you are not. Stop using man's logic to try to figure out the Word of God.

    I am an old man [74] and I grew tired of going through your long spiel word by word and verse by verse. I read through the rest and saw nothing that I had not heard before from others. So I will simply wrap up with this. In addition to my gift my wife has one of the other two gifts I have identified under the gifts of tongues in scripture. She has received received messages from God in tongues. She has also acted as an interpreter of such messages in tongues into the common language of the people.

    The third gift described in Acts 2 I have not witnessed personally, but my pastor, a half-breed Chippewa Indian from Canada has. His father was full-blood Chippewa and spoke the language fluently. In his first experience with tongues he spoke a language unknown to him. Present in the congregation was a Jew who spoke Hebrew. He confirmed that the language spoken was Hebrew, a language that the Chippewa Indian knew not at all.

    Go ahead with you explanations and arguments with other here, but you best be careful. Remember the warning of Gamaliel:

    "And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
    But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God." Acts 5:38-39

     
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  8. That is not a favorable reference to use in your defense, brother, since it was an evil spirit that was asking.




    The hardest thing with this testimony is that some tongue speakers have been believers long before that event which because of that event, they changed their testimony as to when they were saved. My neighbor across the street is such a person whom had shared that she was reading the Bible one day, and as she shared, the Holy Spirit came over her and she spoke in tongues. She said that was when she was saved because she got it all at once.

    Then I had asked her what she had read that led her to believe in Jesus Christ. She did not know what I had meant at first, but then went on to explain that after that event, she had asked her pastor what had happened, and her pastor pointed to something in the Book of Acts which I can only assume was Acts 2nd chapter where His disciples were waiting around, ding everyday sort of things when the promise of the Holy Spirit for their salvation had come.

    Then she went on to share how others at her church had the same kind of experience, but she rolled her eyes when she had said that without sharing why she rolled her eyes, in shaking her head negatively about it.

    So anyway.. she had been a believer all this time and it wasn't anything she had read that led her to believe when what she believed was the Holy Spirit that had come over her in giving her utterance of tongues when she was all lone reading her Bible in the kitchen that one day. She had changed her testimony as to when she was saved.

    So I have a problem with your testimony because I do not know if you had been a believer long before that moment when you had claimed to have been born again of the Spirit by that sign of tongues.

    But do you see the problem my neighbor's changed testimony created? She had been going to church and had been a believer for quite some time, but because of that phenomenon, she believed that was when she was saved. And so other believers hearing that testimony will wonder if they have the Holy Spirit and if they should seek after receiving the Holy Spirit by that sign of tongues in order to know that they are saved even though tongues were not to serve as a sign towards the believers for anything at all; 1 Corinthians 14:22 KJV .

    This in turns have some of those believers seek to receive the Holy Spirit after a sign and some of them that seek, do experience that extra phenomenon and so that is why they go out and say stuff like "If you do not speak in tongues, you do not have the Holy Spirit, and therefore you are not saved."

    Then you have believers like Joyce Meyers that believed they had been saved long before that moment when they felt what they had believed was the Holy Spirit come over them, giving them tongues, but they believed that was God calling them into the ministry, and yet again, tongues were not to serve as a sign towards the believers for anything.

    Even the early church of the RCC had at one time reported that the utterance of tongues within that church was a sign that the church was still keeping the doctrines within "the" church, and yet again, tongues were not to serve as a sign towards the believers and thus neither towards the church as a sign or proof of anything.

    So you had best explained the gospel message you had heard when you had first believed which you claim was when you had received the Holy Ghost & tongues at your salvation. You need to share the moment when you had gotten saved. Had you believed in Him before that time and if not, why at that time when you were saved?


     


  9. But that does not at all goes towards your defense of using tongues for private use which you had testified in the beginning that the tongue was like a baby's babble, and hardly a foreign language of men to be spoken as a sign towards those foreign men to hear the wonderful works of God in their native tongue that you were saved.


    I believe I need to shorten these posts for point by point addressing your original reply to prevent long posts so that others may see our conversation in short replies.

    To be continued.. Lord be willing...

     
  10. Does that truth ( of John 16:13 KJV ) testify that He cannot speak for Himself in uttering His own intercessions? Romans 8:26-27 KJV has it right in that the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His groanings in verse 26, which is why the One that searches our hearts is Jesus Christ, the Son of God ( Hebrews 4:12-16 KJV ) is the One that knows the mind of the Spirit in giving His intercessions for Him to the Father because there is only One Mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus ( 1 Timothy 2:5 KJV ). Jesus is the Only One at that throne of grace by Whom we have access to God the Father by ( John 14:6 KJV ) This is why it is in according to the will of God.



    That reply above in your quote does not really answer the questions for which you had responded to. The questions are for proving why the Holy Spirit cannot use tongues for uttering His own intercessions ( John 16:13 KJV ) which the Holy Spirit cannot even utter His groanings either ( Romans 8:26 KJV ). This is why Jesus has to be the One that knows the mind of the Spirit ( Romans 8:27 KJV )for how the Father gets to know about the unspeakable intercessions from the Spirit's.


     
  11. Jesus being the only way to come to God the Father and that includes prayer ( John 14:6 KJV ) so that when the Son gives our intercessions and the Spirit's unspeakable intercessions, and His own intercessions to the Father, when the Father says yes to any of those intercessions, only the Son answers the prayers. John 14:13-14 KJV This is done according to the will of God so that the Father may be glorified in the Son for answers to prayers which is why we give thanks to the Father in Jesus's name.



    Actually, you did not.


    Repeating now my quote from which you had replied below.

    "So the Holy Spirit has intercessions for us but He cannot utter them. Jesus knows the mind of the Spirit to give the unspeakable intercessions of the Spirit's to the Father for Him.

    That is why I do not believe the tongues today used for "prayer life" is of Him, especially when it is gained as most tongue speakers testify of by a second blessing which is a receiving of the Holy Spirit apart from salvation."


    It is not man's logic when scripture of John 16:13 KJV or any Bible version testifies that the Holy Spirit cannot utter His own intercessions Himself.


    There is no other use of tongues in Acts 2 other than to declare the wonderful works of God in foreign languages to devout Jews from every nation under the heaven.


    I would consider this as using man's logic in trying to justify the baby's babble for your prayer tongue as well as testifying that if believers do not have this prayer language, then they do not have the Holy Spirit and thus they are not saved because you just said that is what it means to be born again as evidence of speaking in a baby's babble. Reads to me that all you are doing is making a case in sowing insecurities towards believers that do not speak in tongues about wondering if they have the Holy Spirit or not.

    So far, you are using tongues to separate yourself from other non-tongue speaking believers as if saying, look at what I have that you don't have. How is that an example of God's love towards the body of Christ? Whereas manifesting tongues in one member and the interpretation of that tongue in another is an example of God's love & action towards the body of Christ.

    And how can it profit the individual tongue speaker as a prayer tongue when he knows not what He had prayed for to even know if God had answered His prayers?

    Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. 8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

    So why would the Holy Spirit be like the heathen in praying as they do in babble nonsense and for a good long time without letting you know what was prayed for?

    Since the Father knows before we had asked in prayer, what need for the Holy Spirit to pray for you verbally since not every believer speaks in tongues? Is that not another example of lack of God's love towards every believer? Is not tongues for a prayer life a show of favoritism in the body of Christ apart from other believers that do not speak in tongues?

    So tongues for private use is not being manifested by the Holy Spirit because it is not done in Christ's love.

     
  12. I am not defending myself.
    And so is God so helpless that He needs your help to confirm that a person's testimony is true or false? Who appointed you as Grand Inquisitor on God's behalf?

    I cannot help what others do or do not do. It is not my job to check on them.

    "I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work." John 9:4

    Yes, the night is coming. It is growing dark and you seem to be the Lights of others for God instead of simply being a Light in the darkness for others to see.

    You are saying nothing new. As to Joyce Meyers it is only a name I have heard. I know nothing about her. If I know Jesus who else do I need to know? As for my tongues, they are not for the benefit of others, but for self edification. Soo if you haven't experienced it, leave it alone.

    I also prophecy at times, but that I do for the Church as God so leads me and gives me words to speak in the language of the hearers.



    You ramble on and say nothing that would cause me to change what God has made me. He is not finished yet, but He has done a lot of work on me already.

    Give God the glory!



    Again I am asking, Who are you to require an explanation and insist on additional words? My credentials for what I do for God are from God. Those who have ears to hear what God gives me to say will be blessed when I am obedient.
     
  13. @JesusIs4Me
    You are not even interested in hearing what I think or believe. Your only concern is with your personal agenda. which is certainly not God's. If you were to ask me a reasonable question and replace your condescending attitude with a bit of charity and maybe then...if God would so lead me I would then respond:

    "Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
    Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
    Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
    Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things."I Cor 13:4-7
     
  14. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. John 16:13 KJV

    I highlighted the point in question. He, the Holy Spirit will not speak of Himself, does not mean He cannot intercede on the behalf of others. The reason that we know that He does intercede for us, can be found in Romans 8:26-27 KJV. I also highlighted the reason He does so (below).

    Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what [is] the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to [the will of] God. Romans 8:26-27 KJV

    As a note. I have not ever spoken in tongues. If followed as Paul has written on the subject. I have no problems with tongues within the Church environment.

    So as to tongues in private. It should be something that is between God and the individual. Because of this, it is not something that should be promoted or condemned.

    Interesting thread. I haven't looked into this subject for awhile. Always refreshing to look at Scripture when searching on a specific topic and a topic that can be controversial as is the case with Tongues.

    With the Love of Christ Jesus.
    YBIC
    Nick
    <><.






     
    amadeus2 and Sue J Love like this.
  15. Closing the thread for a day or two. Unless of cause another Moderator believes it will be okay to reopen it before then.

    I don't want emotions to run so high that we might regret words posted in haste.

    Let's pray on what we're going to say when the thread is reopened.

    Let's also consider that we are Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus and that ultimately it should be more important that we can Love one another.

    With the Love of Christ Jesus.
    Nick
    Moderator
    Your Servant in Christ Jesus.

    <><
     
    Br. Bear and JesusIs4Me like this.
  16. I'm reopening this thread, even as this topic seems to have continued on a separate thread on this topic.
    Please be conscious of who we are talking with and to. Brothers & Sisters in Christ Jesus.
    As I've stated in another thread. You don't have to agree, but please let you communication be in the Love of Christ Jesus
    For even as our own words may pass away in time, our Lord's will not and He called us to Love each other.

    With the Love of Christ Jesus.
    YBIC
    Moderator
    Nick
    <><
     
    Br. Bear likes this.
  17. Greetings,

    thank you for presenting your concern in what appears to be a sound look at Scripture.

    It is quite clear to me, at least, that this really concerns you (JesusIs4Me) and I perceive that you know the 'dangers' of posting this sort of concern on a forum like this. I commend you for doing so, granted if your concern is real and driven by your love for the brethren, which I have no reason to doubt.


    ===================> [for clarity, the following is greetings to all...]

    Something I really enjoy about fellowship is to be able to look at Scripture without getting personal. I don't like to admit it but there have been times when I was pretty sold out on what I figured was the 'right' take on either doctrines or concepts or teachings (be they my own personal formulation or that of others) and so pleased to see in and through Scripture alone that I was missing a few bits of the 'puzzle' (is this what Paul referred to as the mystery?) or that I had been holding the picture upside down... but I will admit it. Did it make me look stupid? Not really, because on realisation of truth I was better able to see and a man who can see clearly is not a stupid person... unless of course he deliberately chooses to ignore what he sees.

    When i have/attend meetings with other Christian men we do not take it personally and in fact we invite any and every correction from Scripture (alone) that might help us see more clearly and we rejoice if we can help each other, build each other up, which is to edify (you can look edify up in your Strong's Concordance folks) If we couldn't study the Scripture like that it would be of no profit but on the contrary, unprofitable. I would soon get either conformist and a religious rut roller or I would stop going to such an empty fellowship. and do you know what? I am convinced that all of you who read what i just said/wrote would agree with me on that point, would you not?
    So, please, before you rip my post to bits for me (I can do that myself, thank you, but thanks for offering) try to see what I am saying in the context of what I am saying. It's called something like dividing the word honestly, leaning not on your own understanding and certainly not quenching the Spirit Who teaches us, and allowing the Scriptures speak for themselves while we be quiet and listen... and there is nothing out of place about that as far as i know.

    Getting back to the OP.

    Some really quite challenging stuff is brought up. Thank you @JesusIs4Me

    One thought that comes to mind is, "what if...?"
    and because I know the pentecostal tongue talking world, that question is quickly countered with another, "what if... ?" only that one is out of fear that if... I cease from and turn away from speaking in tongues, what if i am wrong in doing so... eeeeek, i don't want to go there because I am persuaded that it is OK, it is from God, that it is a gift from God ,that it is a sign of my receiving the Holy Ghost, that all the other things I believe (doctrinal stuff that goes with tongue speaking technology*) is/are true, that if it's not,my tower will come tumbling down and I might even get a bit concerned about ,"what will people think if i stop believing in and using tongues!!!!??!
    *please excuse my colloquialisms. see note below

    But if i soberly and humbly consider, "what if... these Scriptures presented are showing something more of the truth than I was aware of" I have to admit that there are points made which concern me.

    You see (probably much better than I do), we so often overlook all the Scriptures and instead run on a few. We read over and past a lot. Whether we like to think we do or not, we do. Maybe you don't do it as much as me or the next bloke, well good for you, you might even be welcomed by that chap who stood afar/ kept a distance from that sinner chap when sounding his gong, but honestly, we do it. Does that make us bad? definitely not. Iron does sharpen iron, but that can also cause friction and heat in the process unless we do it under running water. I know this from blacksmithing but that doesn't mean I know it all.
    Who does?
    not too many hands showing.
    there is only One, as we all know, don't we?

    Some of you have probably been tongue speaking for decades, some for months, but that should not certify over and above sound Scriptural study and if you have never spoken in tongues that doesn't make you an expert either.
    Perhaps we could get a job as God's personal advisor? Get real.

    If you get challenged, do you get personal or defensive. If so, I don't personally give a hoot about if you do or don't speak in tongues but I do sincerely advise you to ask the Lord to continue to show you a better way, His way, which is all through Scripture and really well spelt out for us in the Gospels and Letters of the New Testament and I don't mean all the doctrinal stuff but how Jesus tells/instructs/advises/commands those who would love Him to interact with everything that comes across their path, for His Name's sake. There are some real beauties in there and they can sting a bit if you realise that you haven't been doing the Jesus thing all that right. For example, I used to mumble to myself / murmur a lot. One bright day or night i decided to meet up to the challenge of what i know was in Scripture and face the facts... and cut it out! Not sure if i have completely mastered it but I know that life around me is a bit sweeter and i know even more definitely that I am learning how to speak the language of the Lord. Do we get the picture?

    This post of mine is not to enter an argument.

    But what i am saying/writing is this...

    put down your guns, don't be so reckless (sounds like a song i heard once). Are we not meant to turn our weapons into ploughing instruments?

    Whether you want to hold on to what you think is tongues or not , whether you agree with everything or not that is written so far in this thread, do yourself and everyone else who you must love (if you will enter) and look instead at the Scriptures raised and the context they are given and discuss civilly those Scriptures.
    Do you know that the world which we ;like to think we are not of, can do that and they can do it really, really well and in fact they do that all the time and we are sometimes a little bit glad they do. Admittedly they don't do it with desire to serve God and learn His ways and sometimes they do it to pervert justice and other sinister or bad-move intentions, or are plain blind to how stupid they are being, but they do it and do it well... so why on earth can we not do it even better!!!! Especially those who claim to have the infilling of the Holy Ghost. Man, what a claim if we live abhorrently in the way we communicate to one another over Scripture.

    Please re-read the OP and study it from a place of wanting to understand more than you already do. If nothing else, you will achieve at least a little boost in your info zone that might be a stepping stone to higher ground.
    The OP was not attacking anyone from what I could see but presenting Scripture with a little reasoning seasoning. Some might call it logic and say that's not on! but, logos is the word.

    If i have got it wrong, so be it, but please don't ARGUE!!!


    Bless you ....><>


    Note:
    Colloquialism
    Everyday language, everyday speech, common parlance, informal language, colloquial language, general parlance, or vernacular, is the most used variety of a language, which is usually employed in conversation or other communication in informal situations. from Wikipedia

    N.B. Imagine a professional team of motor mechanics working on a top end performance car. How do you think they would best get the result they were seeking to achieve? They have before them the state of the art finest piece of machinery, at their disposal, to get ready for the biggest race the world has ever known.
    Should they each have a different go at getting the car running at its peak? Perhaps they could form separatist type groups and throw bits of the engine or chassis at each other while hurling insults and licking their wounds. Perhaps they should get all uppity and sulk because they don't get to have it their way? Maybe some should simply sit in the corner and hope nobody notices? How about if they grab a manual of a different make of car, one that some are convinced was better than the one before them, and use that instead of the manufacturers instructions they had in their possession? Or maybe try to convince others to only look at pages in the workshop that they could relate to?
    Or do you think it would be wisest and most beneficial for the whole racing team if they worked together to fine tune the machinery they were entrusted with (all expenses paid), consulting the manufacturer if and when need be, and in good spirit and togetherness present the owner with the vehicle that would win the race?
    Grace and Peace be multiplied to you all in Jesus Christ the Lord
     
  18. Isaiah 28:
    11 For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.
    12 To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest;
    and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

    1 Corinthians 14:
    21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people;
    and yet for all that will they not hear me, says the Lord.
    22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serves
    not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.
     
  19. Greetings,


    3934 [e]
    bə·la·‘ă·ḡê
    בְּלַעֲגֵ֣י
    with stammering

    laeg: mocking
    Original Word: לַעֲגֵי
    Part of Speech: Adjective
    Transliteration: laeg
    Phonetic Spelling: (law-ayg')
    Short Definition: jesters

    Bless you ....><>
     
  20. Isaiah 28:5-13

    In that day shall the LORD of hosts be for a crown of glory, and for a diadem of beauty, unto the residue of his people,
    And for a spirit of judgment to him that sitteth in judgment, and for strength to them that turn the battle to the gate.

    But they also have erred through wine, and through strong drink are out of the way; the priest and the prophet have erred through strong drink, they are swallowed up of wine, they are out of the way through strong drink; they err in vision, they stumble in judgment.

    For all tables are full of vomit and filthiness, so that there is no place clean.

    Whom shall He teach knowledge? and whom shall He make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: for with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people.

    To whom He said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

    But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.


    Come unto Me,
    all ye that labour and are heavy laden,
    and I will give you rest.

    Take My yoke upon you,
    and learn of Me;

    for I am meek and lowly in heart:
    and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
    For My yoke is easy, and My burden is light.

    Matthew 11:28-30​
     

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