Covenants and Testaments, old and new.

[Thiscrosshurts]

The scripture explains that the written code (law) is for the Jews.

It is not and never was part of the Gentile world.

Good point,the Mosaic law was written to Israel.So it concerned only the Jews.
Gentile's were excluded from the law and were covered under the covenant of Noah.

Mat. 22:37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
Mat. 22:38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
Mat. 22:39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
Mat.22:40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

These two things are difficult enough,the law could never make anyone good,only less evil.
The apostles did not consider it wise to force the Gentiles to perform Mosaic law.

 

[JonahofAkron]

Then you are misunderstanding what you read, the subject is very clearly about the old and new covenants, and that the old with all it contained has been replaced by the new covenant.

The context is the priesthood being the change that was necessary in the Torah because of its dependence on man. Hebrews 8 clarifies it.

 

[David777]

Hello ThisCrossHurts.

Exactly, I am puzzled as to why Gentile Christians would gaze
upon the law.

Do they read the Bible's letters in context?

Do they see the separation between Jew and Gentile?
One is under the law, the other is not.

Context is king as far as I am concerned when reading
the Bible.

 

[JonahofAkron]

Good point,the Mosaic law was written to Israel.So it concerned only the Jews.
Gentile's were excluded from the law and were covered under the covenant of Noah.

Unless they are part of Israel by Messiah as Paul discusses in Romans 11.

Mat. 22:37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'
Mat. 22:38 This is the first and greatest commandment.
Mat. 22:39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
Mat.22:40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

These two things are difficult enough,the law could never make anyone good,only less evil.
The apostles did not consider it wise to force the Gentiles to perform Mosaic law.

The Apostles didn't force them to immediately take upon them the entire thing as 'the Law of Moses [was] being taught every sabbath.' The essence of Torah is love of God and love of others...I don't think you understand the connection between the Tanakh and the Apostolic Writings. The Law was never supposed to save; it only pointed to the one that does.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Unless they are part of Israel by Messiah as Paul discusses in Romans 11.

So the Gentiles traded in their easy to obey covenant under Noah for a massive legalistic system?

Where in the law does it tell me to love my enemies and to overcome evil with good?These things are the way of love not law?
The law is not nullified by love ,it is dwarfed by it.
Love is not a license to sin,it is a power to hate sin.

But I find it hard to believe that God would send me to hell if I just wanted to stick to the Noahitic covenant,rather than being dangled over eternal destruction for believing that Jesus brought good news.

 

[JonahofAkron]

So the Gentiles traded in their easy to obey covenant under Noah for a massive legalistic system?

Let's get something straight: there is a huge difference between the Torah and the legalistic system that some of the Pharisees created. I think you are operating under the notion that they are one and the same. Not so. If the covenants are for Israel, I think you may be missing how drastically our lives change with Jesus.

Where in the law does it tell me to love my enemies and to overcome evil with good?

Messiah's interpretation is the proper one and His understanding is that the Law was about love. Why else would he be able to 'hang all the Law and the Prophets' on it?

These things are the way of love not law?
The law is not nullified by love ,it is dwarfed by it.
Love is not a license to sin,it is a power to hate sin.

It's strange that Jews today consider the Law a gift and a perfect extension of the maker. Psalm 119 us proof enough that your understanding fails to take into account just vital Torah is.

But I find it hard to believe that God would send me to hell if I just wanted to stick to the Noahitic covenant,rather than being dangled over eternal destruction for believing that Jesus brought good news.

I don't understand what you're saying here.... I believe the only way to have salvation is through Messiah. Anything else spells destruction...

 

[Christ4Ever]

The Law was never supposed to save; it only pointed to the one that does.

Amen
There in lies the confusion.

 

[David777]

Hello JonahofAkron.

You said;

The Apostles didn't force them to immediately take upon them the entire thing as
'the Law of Moses [was] being taught every sabbath.' The essence of Torah is
love of God and love of others...I don't think you understand the connection
between the Tanakh and the Apostolic Writings. The Law was never supposed
to save; it only pointed to the one that does.

Care to expand on the highlighted section JonahofAkron.

 

[jiggyfly]

The context is the priesthood being the change that was necessary in the Torah because of its dependence on man. Hebrews 8 clarifies it.

You seem to struggle understanding what you read, it is clearly a comparison of the old and new covenants.


The old way, [fn] with laws etched in stone, led to death, though it began with such glory that the people of Israel could not bear to look at Moses' face. For his face shone with the glory of God, even though the brightness was already fading away. Shouldn't we expect far greater glory under the new way, now that the Holy Spirit is giving life?
If the old way, which brings condemnation, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new way, which makes us right with God! In fact, that first glory was not glorious at all compared with the overwhelming glory of the new way.
So if the old way, which has been replaced, was glorious, how much more glorious is the new, which remains forever! 2Cor. 3:7-11

Just so it's not overlooked, I highlighted an important part in verse seven.

 

[james g]

"We are to come 'to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant' (Heb. 12:24). We are not come to the New Covenant, but to Jesus the Mediator of it. We are associated with Him who is the Mediator; that is a much higher thing than if merely come to the Covenant.

 

[james g]

A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; as I have loved you"; "And this is His commandment, that ye should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as He gave' commandment"; "And this commandment we have from Him, that he who loveth God love his brother also"; "For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments: and His commandments are not grievous."

This could not be said of the law of Moses; for of that law it is written: "Now, therefore, why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?" (Acts 15: 10). Reference here is made to the Mosaic law; to place it on the children of grace was to "tempt God."

It was an unbearable "yoke"; but the Lord Jesus said, when anticipating the relationship of grace, "My yoke is easy, and My burden is light" (Matt. 11:30). Christians are not to be "entangled" with the "yoke of bondage" (Gal. 5:1). So, also, the "old commandment" of 1 John 2:7, is, in 3:11, seen to be the same message of grace.

"Brethren, I write no new commandment to you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word ye have heard from the beginning." "For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that ye should love one another" (1 John 2:7; 3:11).

"I rejoice greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received commandment from the Father. And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another."

For this the Apostle Paul has added a testimony concerning the commandments of the Lord. By the testimony of Paul, the whole teaching of grace, as set forth by himself, is related to the commandments of the Lord: "If any man think himself -a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord"; "Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ" (John 13:34; 1 John 3:23; 4:21; 2 John 4:5; 1 Cor. 14:37; 1 Thess. 4:2; Gal. 6:2).

The "commandments" of Christ are not, therefore, the law, or any aspect of law; they rather constitute "the law of love" and "the perfect law of liberty." They enter into the teachings of grace as those teachings are set forth by the Lord Jesus, and by those to whom He gave authority and commandment (Matt. 28:18; Acts 1:3; Lu. 24:46-48; Heb. 2:3,4).


why tempt ye God(Acts 15: 10). Reference here is made to the Mosaic law; to place it on the children of grace was to "tempt God."

 

[jiggyfly]

Very good posts James G.

 

[B-A-C]

Exactly, I am puzzled as to why Gentile Christians would gaze
upon the law.

Do they read the Bible's letters in context?

Do they see the separation between Jew and Gentile?
One is under the law, the other is not.

Context is king as far as I am concerned when reading
the Bible.

I think the OT shows us God's character. God's wrath towards sin and those who turn away from him. It shows us gentiles what we are "saved from". It reveals the law to us so that we will realize we are imperfect sinners.

Your quote is correct, but I would take it a little further and say not only Jews are under the law, but all Gentiles who aren't Christians.

 

[David777]

Hello all.

Agree with jiggyfly, your post jamesg is very good.

Now for your reply B-A-C, you are too gentle.

You said "imperfect sinners", I think we are much worse.

Human history is not pleasant to read.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

Let's get something straight: there is a huge difference between the Torah and the legalistic system that some of the Pharisees created. I think you are operating under the notion that they are one and the same. Not so. If the covenants are for Israel, I think you may be missing how drastically our lives change with Jesus.

I was talking about Gentiles before Christ.
They were still under the covenant given to Noah.

The Noahic covenant[Gen 8-9] applies to the whole of humankind and to all living creatures. In this covenant, God:

blesses[Gen 9:1] and commands[Gen 9:7] Noah and his sons, that they should be fruitful and multiply, and populate the earth.
places all plants and animals under human command[Gen 9:2-3]
forbids eating meat with the blood still in it[Gen 9:4]
forbids murder[Gen 9:5]
Says that violent men will be repaid by violence[9:6]
promises that HE will never again destroy all life on earth by flood[Gen 9:11]
creates the rainbow as the sign of this "everlasting covenant" for all ages to come[Gen 9:12-17]


This was the law the Gentiles were commanded to obey through Noah and his sons.

It is clear that they were released from the sabbath and Mosaic dietary restrictions.
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

It's strange that Jews today consider the Law a gift and a perfect extension of the maker. Psalm 119 us proof enough that your understanding fails to take into account just vital Torah is.

It's not strange because they still believe they are exclusive to the plans of God.It's a gift they are not eager to push on Gentiles even today.
In the Talmud, "ger" is used in two senses: ger tzedek refers to a "righteous convert", a proselyte to Judaism, and ger toshav, a non-Jewish inhabitant of the Land of Israel who observes the Seven Laws of Noah and has repudiated all links with idolatry. Today, ger refers to a convert to Judaism.

The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are:

Prohibition of Idolatry
Prohibition of Murder
Prohibition of Theft
Prohibition of Sexual immorality
Prohibition of Blasphemy
Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
Establishment of courts of law

 

[JonahofAkron]

I was talking about Gentiles before Christ.
They were still under the covenant given to Noah.

The Noahic covenant[Gen 8-9] applies to the whole of humankind and to all living creatures. In this covenant, God:

blesses[Gen 9:1] and commands[Gen 9:7] Noah and his sons, that they should be fruitful and multiply, and populate the earth.
places all plants and animals under human command[Gen 9:2-3]
forbids eating meat with the blood still in it[Gen 9:4]
forbids murder[Gen 9:5]
Says that violent men will be repaid by violence[9:6]
promises that HE will never again destroy all life on earth by flood[Gen 9:11]
creates the rainbow as the sign of this "everlasting covenant" for all ages to come[Gen 9:12-17]


This was the law the Gentiles were commanded to obey through Noah and his sons.

Right. But I'm not talking about anyone but those in Messiah. Our identity changes in Him because we take on His identity and character. We are part of Israel; her God is our God, her people are our people.

It is clear that they were released from the sabbath and Mosaic dietary restrictions.
Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

That letter is not written to Gentiles in the midst of Jews, but Gentiles in Messiah in the midst of Gentiles that do not have Messiah. The command of Paul to pay no mind to judgment about following Israel's commands goes right along with my point. They were following the commands and being harassed by the other Gentiles of their community.

It's not strange because they still believe they are exclusive to the plans of God.It's a gift they are not eager to push on Gentiles even today.
In the Talmud, "ger" is used in two senses: ger tzedek refers to a "righteous convert", a proselyte to Judaism, and ger toshav, a non-Jewish inhabitant of the Land of Israel who observes the Seven Laws of Noah and has repudiated all links with idolatry. Today, ger refers to a convert to Judaism.

The seven laws listed by the Tosefta and the Talmud are:

Prohibition of Idolatry
Prohibition of Murder
Prohibition of Theft
Prohibition of Sexual immorality
Prohibition of Blasphemy
Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
Establishment of courts of law

I understand all of this, but my intention is to draw the distinction between Gentiles in Messiah and those not in Him. The point is that where Paul discusses 'circumcision', he seems to be trying to help the letters' recipients understand how they may actually become true 'proselytes'. Because the system had been broken and injured by legalism, Paul had to set the record straight-it was not necessary for anyone to become a proselyte by the standards set by the Pharisaic tradition before coming to Jesus.

 

[brakelite]

This covenant was faulty, “For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.” Heb 8:7.



The fault was not with God’s commandments, but with the people and their promises to obey. “For finding fault with THEM, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:” Heb 8:8; Jer 31:31-34.

The New Covenant is based on better promises.



“But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is [presently] the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon BETTER PROMISES.” Heb 8:6 (comment supplied).

God promises forgiveness of sins and the grace of God to renew the heart and bring it into harmony with the principles of God’s law. “This shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts...I will forgive their iniquity, and will remember their sin no more.” Jer 31:33, 34; cf. 2Cor 3:3.



“For this [is] the covenant that I will make with the house of ISRAEL (take note those of you who claim the old covenant was with Israel and the new with Christians...both are with Israel) after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:” Heb 8:10; Rom 9:4.



The perfect law that was engraved upon the tables of stone is today written by the Holy Spirit upon the tables of the heart. Instead of going about to establish our own righteousness we accept the righteousness of Christ. His blood atones for our sins. His obedience is accepted for us. Then the heart renewed by the Holy Spirit will bring forth “the fruits of the Spirit.” Through the grace of Christ we shall live in obedience to the law of God written upon our hearts. We let God live out His life within us.



In essence the New Covenant of grace and God’s power to make us obedient was given to Adam & Eve but it is called the New Covenant because it was ratified by the blood of Christ after the Old covenant.

All who will ever be saved will be saved under the conditions of the New Covenant.



The New Covenant shows that:

(a) Righteousness is by faith in God’s works, not our works.



(b) The Law of God is not faulty and He writes it in His people’s hearts and minds.

(c)All who are part of the New Covenant are “Israel,” for the Covenant was made with Israel (Rom 9:4).

 

[brakelite]

The New Covenant

The new covenant was made with the house of Israel. (Heb.8:8) So to claim that Christians don't live under the old covenant because the old covenant was made with the Jews is meaningless, unless you are excluding yourself from the new covenant as well.

The new covenant is the new means by which God brings righteousness and holiness to His people. Not just an imputed righteousness, but a real and evidential change in the lives of every one of His people. This change however is conditional. It is not automatically granted the moment one becomes a Christian. The righteousness that is imparted through the work of the Holy Spirit is progressive over a lifetime, and will never cease until the day we die.
And what is it conditional on? Our surrender. Our willingness to submit to God's authority in our lives.

Rom. 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Note that Paul is talking here about our mortal bodies...this is present life stuff here folks...he isn't speaking of a change that miraculously takes place at death or translation, no no. Paul is speaking of a change right now, it is a message for us as we walk and talk and think and live our lives every day. "Let not sin reign". This short command presupposes a power at work in us that can accomplish this feat. Please do not anyone claim that overcoming sin is impossible in this life.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
There folks is the alternative to sin. Rather than yielding (read submitting or surrendering) to sin, we yield to God. Instead of being slaves or instruments of sin, we become instruments of righteousness.We surrender, God works.But God cannot work in those who do not give Him the authority over their lives. It is your choice. You yield to sin, or you yield to God. You live in sin, or you live in righteousness.


Romans 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you:
Wow. That is a fairly broad statement. And so emphatic. Sin shall NOT have dominion. So who or what will have dominion? Do we by our great might and strength and will power become righteous? Is it by our own work that we become sinless? That we become obedient to the laws of God?

for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

By yielding ourselves to God, sin ceases to reign over us. By submitting to God we give Him the authority to operate in our lives.
Now the conclusion to the whole matter is this. What laws He writes upon our hearts are laws of love. We cannot help but express that love ... it becomes as natural to us as the growing of grapes on a vine, so long as the branch abides in the vine, it will grow grapes. Our work is to abide. We do that through surrendering or yielding to God. And as we yield, we love, and as we love, we obey, and as we obey, we keep all His commandments.
" For this is the whole duty of man. To fear God and keep His commandments."
"If ye love Me, keep My commandments."