Contextualizing Islam

[KingJ]

What are your thoughts on this? Is it a religion of peace if we properly contextualize it?

I was watching this debate,

.


Toward the end Maajid Nawaz makes a comparison between Muhammad 1400 years ago and the founding fathers of the U.S.

The founding fathers were guilty of many evils. Treason, sex scandals and fraud. Yet, put in place a government and policies that resulted in the US turning out just fine. To use it as a parallel to Islam is insane. Quite hilarious.

The founding fathers looked to the bible for inspiration. They mostly agreed with this kind of thinking:

Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments. Charles Carroll, signer of the Declaration of Independence.

If we looked to them on a personal basis as Muslims do to Muhammad, we will surely follow their evils. If the point is that we are not to look at them but learn from them, well that is then a very good point. One that is certainly not being applied to Muhammad. I don't think Maajid properly grasped the point he insinuated. Namely, don't follow Muhammad. Nor any of the laws he pioneered to accommodate his evil.

There are so many things you cannot contextualize. Murdering thousands of Indians / raping a nine year old girl has been a gross evil / mortal sin among every sane thinking person from Adam and Eve up to today.

There are many evils that we 'claim' the Jews in the OT are guilty of. Atheists sites are full of them. But 99% of these arguments raised against them / God in the OT can be explained without contextualizing.

Saying we must contextualize the evils of Islam's origins and history is a major cop out. They must take ownership of their evils and agree to learn from and never repeat them.

 

[Bendito]

What are your thoughts on this? Is it a religion of peace if we properly contextualize it?

I was watching this debate,

.


Toward the end Maajid Nawaz makes a comparison between Muhammad 1400 years ago and the founding fathers of the U.S.

The founding fathers were guilty of many evils. Treason, sex scandals and fraud. Yet, put in place a government and policies that resulted in the US turning out just fine. To use it as a parallel to Islam is insane. Quite hilarious.

The founding fathers looked to the bible for inspiration. They mostly agreed with this kind of thinking:

Without morals a republic cannot subsist any length of time; they therefore who are decrying the Christian religion, whose morality is so sublime and pure (and) which insures to the good eternal happiness, are undermining the solid foundation of morals, the best security for the duration of free governments. Charles Carroll, signer of the Declaration of Independence.

If we looked to them on a personal basis as Muslims do to Muhammad, we will surely follow their evils. If the point is that we are not to look at them but learn from them, well that is then a very good point. One that is certainly not being applied to Muhammad. I don't think Maajid properly grasped the point he insinuated. Namely, don't follow Muhammad. Nor any of the laws he pioneered to accommodate his evil.

There are so many things you cannot contextualize. Murdering thousands of Indians / raping a nine year old girl has been a gross evil / mortal sin among every sane thinking person from Adam and Eve up to today.

There are many evils that we 'claim' the Jews in the OT are guilty of. Atheists sites are full of them. But 99% of these arguments raised against them / God in the OT can be explained without contextualizing.

Saying we must contextualize the evils of Islam's origins and history is a major cop out. They must take ownership of their evils and agree to learn from and never repeat them.

I agree that the surface government of our country turned out fine but the shadow government is taking it down...Our government was started by people who wanted to worship as they wanted to...to be free to worship God....The shadow government was/is based on deep Satanic rituals and well......

Islam was based on only one thing....Hatred
Christianity is based on only one thing....LOVE

This is the context of both.....What do you think?

 

[KingJ]

1. I agree that the surface government of our country turned out fine but the shadow government is taking it down...Our government was started by people who wanted to worship as they wanted to...to be free to worship God....The shadow government was/is based on deep Satanic rituals and well......

2. Islam was based on only one thing....Hatred
Christianity is based on only one thing....LOVE

This is the context of both.....What do you think?

1. I can agree with that. The devil would have known the U.S. would turn out to be a superpower in the end days. He is definitely involved somehow. But as clarified in your one thread, we definitely have the power to supress him.

2. Completely agree. Islam is based on many good things. But Muhammad's gospel that superscedes all other is based on hatred. In Christianity the entire bible, even the OT points to Jesus. In light of that, all that was done in the OT can be better understood. That is just about all the contextulaizing a Christian needs to make. There is absolutely nothing that Jesus said or did that needs to be contextualized with the times in which He lived to excuse an evil.

 

[HisFollower]

It is evident by every false religion that all of them can to a degree make there false religion nice sounding, for that is what they must do to promote it: ans unfortunately many readily believe a lie, because they would rather worship and serve the creature more than the Creator, which is from where all false religions come.

 

[Hekuran]

There are many evils that we 'claim' the Jews in the OT are guilty of. Atheists sites are full of them. But 99% of these arguments raised against them / God in the OT can be explained without contextualizing.

I struggle to explain a lot of God's commands in the Old Testment

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” (1 Sam 15:2-3)

 

[Bendito]

I struggle to explain a lot of God's commands in the Old Testment

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” (1 Sam 15:2-3)

Hekuran When you know what God had the Israelites destroy you will feel better and you will agree that God did a good thing...The Amelekites were not even human..they were nephilim giants...Evil man eating giants. Satan worshiping giants...When the Israelites came into the land There were thirty races of giants in that area....None of them was human and none were good. Even their animals were dedicated to evil.

 

[KingJ]

I struggle to explain a lot of God's commands in the Old Testment

Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’” (1 Sam 15:2-3)

Hi

Firstly we need to understand that God only annihilates those whose sin is full measure. We see this with Noah's flood. Sodom and Gomorrah. Sending Jonah to Nineveh. Waiting with the Amorites Gen 15:16. So if we look closely at any nation annihilated from God empowering the Jews, we should find extreme evil.

Now just with common sense we can grasp that any nation not showing kindness and mercy to the Hebrews was evil. Because of these reasons:

1. They had just spent 400 years in slavery
2. They had just spent 40 years in the hot desert
3. They had prophets leading them, the likes of which had never been seen before. So there was full knowledge that God was with them. Making any attack on them an attack on God.
4. These were good and holy people. They would stone murderers, adulterers / mortal sinners among themselves to death. Anyone opposing them must have hated what is good.
5. They came in peace. There would have been no war if they did not need to defend themselves.

Now the Amalekites were Edomites with a vendetta against the Hebrews. When the Hebrews were passing through they ask extremely politely and respectfully for safe passage in Numbers 20:17. The Amalekites attacked them without cause and rallied others to take them out. The Amalekites angered God so much that He wanted them all gone. We can't take offence with God ordering the killing of children and woman either. God loves children and does not like to see woman suffer. Yet they are all part of a corrupt and evil society passing down lies and hatred.

 

[KingJ]

Hekuran When you know what God had the Israelites destroy you will feel better and you will agree that God did a good thing...The Amelekites were not even human..they were nephilim giants...Evil man eating giants. Satan worshiping giants...When the Israelites came into the land There were thirty races of giants in that area....None of them was human and none were good. Even their animals were dedicated to evil.

I have never fully grasped the nephilim. I have been watching youtube vidoes on them. Quite interesting. Is there a book or video you would recommend?

 

[Hekuran]

We'll go way off topic if we pursue this. Suffice it to say that I have explored many responses to difficulties in the bible such as genocide and have yet to find answers - contextualised or not - that resolve the problems.

Back to Islam. If we proceed in discussions with the assumptions that Islam is stupid and evil and Christianity is wise and good we'll not get very far. We must be as fair as we can be in looking at all our histories.

 

[KingJ]

We'll go way off topic if we pursue this. Suffice it to say that I have explored many responses to difficulties in the bible such as genocide and have yet to find answers - contextualised or not - that resolve the problems.

Back to Islam. If we proceed in discussions with the assumptions that Islam is stupid and evil and Christianity is wise and good we'll not get very far. We must be as fair as we can be in looking at all our histories.

The need to contextualize genocide is on topic.

It is miss direction to assume we must contextualize what Muhammad did because we need to contextualize genocide from God and His chosen race trying to survive. God hates evil. That is like working brain / mankind rules 101. God knows we know this. Nobody who finds themselves in hell one day will be surprised. The Amalekites were not shocked when God had them annihilated. It is like saying a murderer is surprised at the death penalty.

I am not saying Islam is stupid and evil. I am saying Islam is not learning from the past. They are painting Muhammad with a colorful brush when his actions were far from it. 10 000 years ago, his day and today..... he would be arrested, put in prison and given the death penalty.

 

[KingJ]

Examples on controversial OT issues we don't need to contextualize.

1. Cruel Slavery - If a slave survives a beating the master must not be punished.

Cruel slavery as was done with Africans was wrong in that day just as much as it is wrong in this day. The verse that I quoted is completely cherry picked. When the whole passage is read it is clear that the punishment being discussed was the death penalty. A master who does not kill his slave must not be put to death. A slave could leave at anytime to a new master and the new master was not allowed to report him. It was a six year employment contract.

2. Rape, sexual slavery - Jews taking Midianite virgins for themselves.

This is such a laughable accusation / assumption. Jews stone each other for adultery. Yet we assume they were ok with....rape.

3. Polygamy - miss treatment of woman

God created Adam and Eve. Polygamy was wrong then just as it is now. We can probably have some understanding for them taking care of a brothers widow. But this was there doing.

4. Mortal sinners stoned to death

Only Jews were stoned to death. They did not get bored and decide to go and find some Japanese in mortal sin to stone. They knew that they were more accountable for their actions. One of twelve tribes in full time ministry. High priests who heard directly from God.

5. Non mortal sinners stoned to death - disobedient children.

Stoning a non mortal sinner to death was wrong then, just as it is now. These are again terrible assumptions. Every death penalty sentence was passed by a panel of the most respected elders.

 

[KingJ]

Suffice it to say that I have explored many responses to difficulties in the bible such as genocide and have yet to find answers

Genocide is the easiest to explain. Every human can grasp God hating evil. This is why mankind is accountable for their sin and in need of a Savior. Everyone who loves evil full measure and does not want to repent, will perish. If the Amalekites decided to apologize and fast for a month like Nineveh, we would not be reading about their annihilation :wink:. Gen 15:16 In the fourth generation your descendants will come back here, for the sin of the Amorites has not yet reached its full measure. John 3:19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

Do you have any others?

 

[Hekuran]

No, no others thanks. Will you accept simple explanations of the apparent evils in Islam's history as willingly?

 

[KingJ]

No, no others thanks. Will you accept simple explanations of the apparent evils in Islam's history as willingly?

The reason we can give short answers on the Jews is because they were not guilty of any evil. We need only help readers complete the chapter.

With Muhammad however we kind of have to grab every straw. I doubt it will ever be possible to give a short explanation. Must I raise the issues I have with him? I will do so if you want to try explain them away.

 

[Hekuran]

Many of the actions taken in the name of Islam are monstrous. We must remember that there are many events in the Bible that are equally difficult. It's bordering on hypocrisy to shine a light on the evils in Islam's history and to turn a blind eye to the same thing in our own Old Testament.

 

[KingJ]

1. Many of the actions taken in the name of Islam are monstrous. 2. We must remember that there are many events in the Bible that are equally difficult. 3. It's bordering on hypocrisy to shine a light on the evils in Islam's history and to turn a blind eye to the same thing in our own Old Testament.

1. Agreed. Especially from the passages of Muhammad.
2. There are? Like what? You have only raised genocide of the Amalekites. Which is probably the easiest genocide to explain.
3. Actually its not. If I followed the OT laws I will be a very good person. Hekuran you can stone me to death if I take your wife VS Hekuran I will cut off the fingertips and head of your wife, to strike the terror of my God into you. Next joke.

 

[Hekuran]

OK. I'm going to ease off this thread for now. I've made my point and don't want to get caught up in a long to and fro. God bless you

 

[KingJ]

We can learn a lot from Islam. All God fearing people are better then non God fearing. I respect many laws they live by. I acknowledge they have respect for Jesus and that many are taking a bold stand against extremism. The only issue I have is with following Muhammad as the final prophet when many of his actions were evil by any person's standards. We can respect the fact that he was successful in his conquests. But that's about it.

 

[Bendito]

I have never fully grasped the nephilim. I have been watching youtube vidoes on them. Quite interesting. Is there a book or video you would recommend?

You might read 'Earths Earliest Ages' by GH Pember....The 'Cosmic Chess Match' by LA Marzulli or 'In Search of the Immortals' by Tom Horn....You can also look at Marzulli's website and Tom Horns site too....Look up Steve Quayle's website..
The books will rattle your cage. You will see that the 'catching up of the bride' is imminent. As in a matter of months? Perhaps
BTW You might, while at the Marzulli website get the Watcher series of vids....

 

[Bendito]

We can learn a lot from Islam. All God fearing people are better then non God fearing. I respect many laws they live by. I acknowledge they have respect for Jesus and that many are taking a bold stand against extremism. The only issue I have is with following Muhammad as the final prophet when many of his actions were evil by any person's standards. We can respect the fact that he was successful in his conquests. But that's about it.

Wow KingJ Muslims are not a God following people...they are a false god following people....They see our Jesus as a minor prophet while their Jesus is Mahdi who comes and slaughters all not muslim people. I do agree however that many many muslim people do want the same as other people, namely....peace, to raise good kids, respect etc

Truthfully, I think the only thing we can learn from muslims is their total dedication to their religion...The way we should be totally dedicated to our God....