Comment on “The Church Age”

[NetChaplain]

I'm not understanding why OT prophets who were Jewish, would be prophysing to Gentiles?

Hi Ocean - Very interesting comment, which I find quite perceptive and have not thought of. Though the OT prophecies were always to the people of God, they often were about the rest of the world. Thus, to the Jew and also often about the Gentile.

 

[ocean73]

Thanks

Well, would they be to the rest of the world in relation to the Israelites, considering God;s unique relationship with them?

Could you be specific with regards to this: they often were about the rest of the world

ps...I like questions...I ask them to myself all the time

 

[NetChaplain]

Thanks

Well, would they be to the rest of the world in relation to the Israelites, considering God;s unique relationship with them?

Could you be specific with regards to this: they often were about the rest of the world

ps...I like questions...I ask them to myself all the time

Me too, ask all you wants about any Biblical.

The rest of the world--Gentiles! All who were not included in the people of God at that time, which were only Hebrews and Jews.

 

[NetChaplain]

I've been sharing that Abraham is the father of faith as in first in the faith of God's grace, making him the father of the faith among the believing world. Similar concept to John 8:44 concerning the Enemy. "What was written in the books of the Old Testament, was not written merely on account of them who are the subjects thereof, but for the use, learning, instruction and profit of saints under the New Testament dispensation" JG (But for us also - Rom 4:24).

It may have been noticed that I often use John Gill's commentary but I want it to be known that at present, my dispensational concepts do not always parallel his because at times he spiritualizes, as many do, Israel (unbelieving Jews, which will be the majority of Israel until later) to be the Church.

At present, I can see that Abraham becomes the father of the believing Gentile as in a spiritual-mystical sense concerning the faith in God, but as yet I fail to see how this is to support the concept that the Church is Israel.

It will help for me to explain that I have the understanding that there will be unbelieving Jews saved later (living Jews who make up Israel at that time), who will be the ones to "inherit the earth." The companion-concept to Israel inheriting the "new earth" is, that when Scripture speaks of saints dwelling in Heaven, these are those who believed before they died and before Jesus returns.

This is why I still fail to comprehend that Ezekiel 36 and Jeremiah 31 are in any reference to Gentiles, considering the ominous Jewish-posterity usage, which appears to explain that the new covenant of Israel indicated in Jer/Eze prophecies are similar to the new covenant which has been since Christ's ascension, e.g. Spirit given and God causing them to walk in statues and laws. This Israelite covenant would be the result of new covenant in His blood, as is the present Christian new covenant, which is the "everlasting covenant" (Heb 13:20,21); but the two would not be "blessed" (John 20:29) the same (saved Israel--new earth; saved Christian--new heaven?).

I encountered these concepts (Israel/Church distinctions and eternal states) about ten years ago and I still find that there is a good possibility of them being true. I haven't exhausted the comprehensive input Scripture has concerning them, nor have I come to the understanding that the Spirit has shown me a confirmation as to accept them as speculation or truth. It's all in the patience of waiting on the Lord!

 

[ocean73]

Thanks

Well, would they be to the rest of the world in relation to the Israelites, considering God;s unique relationship with them?

Could you be specific with regards to this: they often were about the rest of the world

ps...I like questions...I ask them to myself all the time



Me too, ask all you wants about any Biblical.

The rest of the world--Gentiles! All who were not included in the people of God at that time, which were only Hebrews and Jews.


************************************************************************************** I used diff colors, because I am not allowed to use the quote feature yet as copy/paste


Not quite what I was asking...sorry, I have a thought I didn't express well, so I'll have another go

What I am asking, is how MUCH to the rest of the world would you consider the prophetic messages to Israel as being addressed to all? Do you see them as addressed to everyone or, do you see some as exclusive to Israel?

When you state they OFTEN were about the rest of the world, I have to say I find that a very general statement with lots of 'wiggle' room. Do you believe that Israel as a nation is still
God's consideration or do you believe, as some do, that it's now just and only about the church, with no distinction or message still applicable to Israel as a whole? (hope this is not confusing here)

 

[NetChaplain]

What I am asking, is how MUCH to the rest of the world would you consider the prophetic messages to Israel as being addressed to all? Do you see them as addressed to everyone or, do you see some as exclusive to Israel?

Hi O73 - Your inquiries are not only sensible but applicable to the subject matter of the thread. I believe all Scripture that refers to the salvation of Israel is also intended for the salvation of Gentiles, which of-course is God's foreknown intention.

At present, my eschatological understanding concerning Israel per Jeremiah 31 and Eze 36 will contain Jews living at that time who have yet to believe in Jesus, but whom God will put His Spirit in. The Jews who have the Spirit before that time are part of the Church, just as the believing Gentiles.

I believe those in the OT dispensation who did not believe in God perished (which were always the majority of Israel, same truth concerning the majority of the Gentiles--majority of mankind), but there were always Jews who believed God (remnant of Israel: Rom 11:4; 1 Kings 19:18),esp. the Apostles, with whom He started the Church and Body, will be part of the Body of Christ.

 

[ocean73]

Hi O73 - Your inquiries are not only sensible but applicable to the subject matter of the thread. I believe all Scripture that refers to the salvation of Israel is also intended for the salvation of Gentiles, which of-course is God's foreknown intention.

At present, my eschatological understanding concerning Israel per Jeremiah 31 and Eze 36 will contain Jews living at that time who have yet to believe in Jesus, but whom God will put His Spirit in. The Jews who have the Spirit before that time are part of the Church, just as the believing Gentiles.

I believe those in the OT dispensation who did not believe in God perished (which were always the majority of Israel, same truth concerning the majority of the Gentiles--majority of mankind), but there were always Jews who believed God (remnant of Israel: Rom 11:4; 1 Kings 19:18),esp. the Apostles, with whom He started the Church and Body, will be part of the Body of Christ.

Logic would have me ask, if you believe that all the promises for Israel of salvation (I say promises because of course salvation was not fulfilled or the law completed in Christ; effecting perfect salvation)
in the OT are also are also for Gentiles, then do you also believe that all the warnings and consequences for disobedience to God are also applicable to Gentiles? Or has God somehow overlooked
that now if someone claims to be saved through the blood of Christ?

Let me ask that another way for clairitys sake: Do you believe in the OSAS doctrine or do you believe that it is possible to fall away?

See, ultimate salvation spoken of in the OT appears to be both physical for the Jews as a nation (unless one believes there are no more Jews) with restoration to their homeland as established
by God through His covenant with Abraham. How does that fit in with what you believe?

Correct me if I understand you poorly, but at present, it appears you believe that God's ultimate plan does not incorporate the physicality of the Jews but only the spiritual application with
regards to ultimate salvation. How does that fit in with the New Jerusalem and why would God seem to have such an interest in that locality on the map of the middle east? Do I have that wrong? If I do, would you mind explaining how you view those things?

One more: how do you view this verse:"And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.​ Zech. 12:10

Thanks

 

[DHC]

Romans 9
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, 'Though the number of the sons of Israel be like
the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved'

Romans 11
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, so that you will not
be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

Zechariah 12
10 I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace
and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn
for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping
over a firstborn.
11 In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem,

It does appear that there is a specific day in the future when Israel does mourn over
what they did to Jesus. A Spirit of Grace is poured out upon physical Israel at a specific
time in the future.

 

[Bambi]

Logic would have me ask, if you believe that all the promises for Israel of salvation (I say promises because of course salvation was not fulfilled or the law completed in Christ; effecting perfect salvation)
in the OT are also are also for Gentiles, then do you also believe that all the warnings and consequences for disobedience to God are also applicable to Gentiles? Or has God somehow overlooked
that now if someone claims to be saved through the blood of Christ?

Can you explain this statement, especially the part that says, "salvation was not fulfilled or the law completed in Christ". Is this what you truly believe?.

 

[Bambi]

The generality of Israel will not believe in the Lord Jesus and I believe the living unbelieving Jew who sees and believes in Christ during the Millennium is the one who is prophesied to become a "people of God" (Jer 31:31: Eze 36:27).

I just so happen upon a verse in 2 Corinthians 3:3.that quotes Ezekiel 36:26. In Corinthians Paul is talking to Gentiles using Ezekiel's verse to show what happened to them. In fact verse 2 Paul writes that it is to all men. So again I don't believe you can state that Jeremiah 31:31 and Ezekiel 36:27 is just to a group of Jews in the far distance future. These passages are for all who believe in Christ before his return. Also as I said before after Christ returns there will be no second chance for anybody.

 

[ocean73]

Can you explain this statement, especially the part that says, "salvation was not fulfilled or the law completed in Christ". Is this what you truly believe?.

What do you mean is this what I truly believe? I don't understand your question...sorry

 

[ocean73]

Romans 9
27 Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, 'Though the number of the sons of Israel be like
the sand of the sea, it is the remnant that will be saved'

Romans 11
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, so that you will not
be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in;
26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written,

Zechariah 12
10 I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace
and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn
for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping
over a firstborn.
11 In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem,

It does appear that there is a specific day in the future when Israel does mourn over
what they did to Jesus. A Spirit of Grace is poured out upon physical Israel at a specific
time in the future.

Yes. Exactly...that is what I was saying. Thanks

 

[brakelite]

True Israel???

Who is true Israel? Is it the physical nation fighting for its existence in the Middle East, or is it the spiritual entity we know as the church. And if its the church, which one?
The name "Israel" first appears in the Bible in Genesis 32:28 After a night of wrestling with the heavenly visitor (who I personally believe to be Christ Himself) Jacob prevails in his efforts and his name is changed from Jacob, the deceiver or supplanter, to Israel, meaning he will rule. Jacob has prevailed with God and overcome.
At the time of this event, Jacob was reluctant to face Esau after 20 years of exile and was quite simply terrified of him. His former deception of his father and claim to be Esau was now playing on his conscience and he desired God's blessing and forgiveness before proceeding. So the 'Angel' asks Jacob his name, to which he truthfully replies 'my name is Jacob'. In this he was confessing his guilt, and God then knew he was a changed man, so gave him a new name that celebrated so to speak his victory over sin, self and his night of wrestling in prayer, the 'Angel' saying "for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed."
Israel, as a name therefore represents spiritual victory over sin.

<dl class="wp-caption alignright" id="attachment_189" data-mce-style="width: 310px;" style="float: right; border: 1px solid rgb(221, 221, 221); text-align: center; background-color: rgb(243, 243, 243); padding-top: 4px; margin: 10px 0px; border-top-left-radius: 3px; border-top-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-right-radius: 3px; border-bottom-left-radius: 3px; width: 310px;"><dt class="wp-caption-dt">

</dt><dd class="wp-caption-dd" style="font-size: 11px; line-height: 17px; padding: 0px 4px 5px; margin: 0px;">Is this real Israel?</dd></dl>
This is significant as it tells us God's purpose for His people. That is, to live in victory over sin, to show forth God's true character to the world.
In Exod 4:22,23 Moses is instructed on how he is to speak to Pharaoh in order that Israel's descendants may be freed from slavery. God says to Moses "and thou shalt say unto Pharaoh 'Thus saith the Lord,Israel is My son, my firstborn and I say unto thee let My son go to serve me..."
This is the first time Israel is used in a corporate sense for the entire nation. Before it applied only to an individual, but here we see it being applied to his descendants. First to a victorious man, then to his people.
Did Israel live up to that name? What was God trying to accomplish in establishing Israel in the first place? Was it not that He would have a people to represent Him on the earth? Before God had His champions, but all failed. Sin interposed and no longer was any of God's chosen able to fulfill the true destiny that God intended for them. Adam failed over appetite. So did Noah. Abraham also, but God was determined to establish a people after His own heart and show the gentiles His law, His mercy and grace and power. Interesting that Adam, Noah, and Israel all failed on points of appetite. (Gen 9:20,21; Exodus 16:27-29.)
It wasn't until Jesus came on the scene in person that the title "Israel" in it's truest spiritual sense and power could be rightly bestowed. And Mathew in particular showed this time and time again how Jesus was the fulfillment of the OT prophecies which may have originally applied to the nation, but now, according to Mathew's inspired writings, applied in fact to Jesus. Examples are Hosea 11:1 ; Isaiah 41:8; 42:1-3 .
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</dt><dd class="wp-caption-dd" style="font-size: 11px; line-height: 17px; padding: 0px 4px 5px; margin: 0px;">Or is the spiritual entity we know as the 'church', true Israel?</dd></dl>
Paul followed the same idea and reasoning by paralleling Col 1:15 with Ex 4:22, Gal 3:16 with Isaiah 41:8 and elsewhere.
Jesus Himself proclaimed Himself as the true vine, in fulfilment of Ps 80:8 which applied to the nation.
So now the mantle and authority once bestowed upon the nation has been given to Jesus. Jesus is the essence of true Israel. He only has the right to bear the name for He only has prevailed with sin and overcome. Jesus walked over the same ground that Israel walked, but came through victorious. In His temptations in the wilderness, it was appetite that came under particular scrutiny.
What Paul does in Romans and other writers in the NT however is extend that idea and show how the name Israel also now applies to Jesus' descendants, just as it did to Jacob's descendants. Peter also showed this when he compared the church to Exodus 19:6.(1 Peter 2:9).
So as Paul says, immediately after saying that Jesus is the 'seed' of Abraham, Gentile converts in Galatia were now also Abraham's seed because they are Christ's. They are also heirs according to the promise.
This is not 'replacement ' theology. It is merely a revelation of who true Israel always was and who Israel is now. It is those people, of whatever nation kindred tongue and people, who by faith in the mercy grace and power of God overcome sin and receive Christ's righteousness and forgiveness as a gift and are willing to share that gift with the lost. True Israel was always exclusively those who "as princes had power with God and men and prevailed".
Thus the unfulfilled covenant that Jeremiah speaks of and repeated in Hebrews, "I will place My laws in their hearts and in their minds I will write them" applies to the church, not a resurgent nation. All Israel will be saved, but the descendants of Jesus, not flesh and blood descendants of Jacob.
And the prophecies that most believe apply to the nation, apply to the church. For example, Armageddon is not the world arrayed against the nation of Israel, but the unsaved world (those who have accepted the mark) arrayed against the remnant who have refused the mark, and are under the sentence of death. Those who keep the commandments of God, (and thus have gained that victory over sin) and have the faith of Jesus. Rev.12:17; 14:12.

 

[brakelite]

Zechariah 12
10 I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace
and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn
for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping
over a firstborn.
11 In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem,

Hi DHC. I was wondering if perhaps this has already taken place in Acts 2 and 3 when over 8000 people gave their lives to Christ at the preaching of the Apostles? Jesus instructed His disciples to first go to the lost house of Israel...for 3 and a half years they did this, being maybe the Spirit of grace spoken of in Zechariah, until the leaders of the nation set the seal on their desolation by the stoning of Steven, after which the gospel went to the Gentiles. But, maybe there will be a great awakening in Israel to the truth in the future. Would this mean however the nation of Israel still has favoured status in the mind of God? I do not think so, for as Paul says, there is now no Jew nor Greek etc...they are on the same level as everyone else, and their salvation comes to them under the same conditions as everyone else. Acceptance of their Messiah, and grafting into the tree of the promises,not the bloodline, of the Abrahamic covenant.

 

[DHC]

Hi DHC. I was wondering if perhaps this has already taken place in Acts 2 and 3 when over 8000 people gave their lives to Christ at the preaching of the Apostles? Jesus instructed His disciples to first go to the lost house of Israel...for 3 and a half years they did this, being maybe the Spirit of grace spoken of in Zechariah, until the leaders of the nation set the seal on their desolation by the stoning of Steven, after which the gospel went to the Gentiles. But, maybe there will be a great awakening in Israel to the truth in the future. Would this mean however the nation of Israel still has favoured status in the mind of God? I do not think so, for as Paul says, there is now no Jew nor Greek etc...they are on the same level as everyone else, and their salvation comes to them under the same conditions as everyone else. Acceptance of their Messiah, and grafting into the tree of the promises,not the bloodline, of the Abrahamic covenant.

Hello Brakelite.

There are certainly two different entities in the New Testament, physical Israel and the Gentiles.
Of this the scripture is very clear and is beyond debate Brakelite. Where I experience difficulty
is chapter 11 of Romans.

Romans 11
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, so that you will not
be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

This verse is very straight forward, Paul explains that the hardening applied to physical Israel
by God will soften one day. That day is a future day after the fullness of the Gentiles is reached.

How do you read this verse Brakelite?

 

[brakelite]

Hello Brakelite.

There are certainly two different entities in the New Testament, physical Israel and the Gentiles.
Of this the scripture is very clear and is beyond debate Brakelite. Where I experience difficulty
is chapter 11 of Romans.

Romans 11
25 For I do not want you, brethren, to be uninformed of this mystery, so that you will not
be wise in your own estimation, that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the
fullness of the Gentiles has come in;

This verse is very straight forward, Paul explains that the hardening applied to physical Israel
by God will soften one day. That day is a future day after the fullness of the Gentiles is reached.

How do you read this verse Brakelite?

In the beginning God made Adam, the father of the human race. Adam was the son of God (Luke3:38); therefore all his descendants are by right God's people. He did not cast them off because theysinned. His love embraced the world (John 3:16), and it did not contract in the days of Abraham, Isaac,and Jacob. The only advantage of Israel was that they had the privilege of carrying the glorious gospel to the Gentiles, for whom it was always designed as much as for them.

The Gentiles, as well as the descendants of Jacob, were from the beginning intended to become Israel. This was shown at the conference in Jerusalem. Peter told how he had been divinely sent to preach the gospel to them, and that God put no difference between them and the Jews. Then James said: "Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up; that the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles,upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world." Acts 15:14-18. See also Amos 9:11-15.

From the above we learn that the "tabernacle of David," the house or kingdom of David, is to be restored through the preaching of the gospel to the Gentiles, and that this is according to the mind of the Lord from the beginning of the world. What these scriptures need is not comment, but believing thought.

"Blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in." Rom. 11:25. Until the fulness of the Gentiles "be come" into what place? Into Israel, of
course; for it is by the bringing in of the fulness of the Gentiles that "all Israel shall be saved."

When will the fulness of the Gentiles "be come" in?
The Lord himself furnishes the answer: "This gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come." Matt. 24:14. God is visiting the Gentiles, "to take out of them a people for his name." By them Israel is to be made full or complete. As soon as this work of preaching the gospel to the Gentiles is finished, then the end will come. There will then be no more preaching to anybody, not to the Gentiles, because they will all have made the final decision; and not to the Jews, because then "all Israel shall be saved." There will then be no more need of the gospel; it will have accomplished its work.

Romans 11:27-36
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. 29 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes. 29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance. 30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief: 31 even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy. 32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. 33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out! 34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counselor? 35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again? 36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Note carefully verses 25-27. When the fulness of the Gentiles shall have been brought in, "all Israel shall be saved." Indeed, it is only by the bringing in of the Gentiles that all Israel will be saved. And this will be a fulfillment of that which is written, "There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob." Only through Christ can Israel be saved and gathered; and all who are Christ's are Israel; for "if ye be Christ's then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal. 3:29.

To consider any other option, for example that all literal Israel will be saved, brings with it connotations of universalism; for if the grace and mercy of God allows literal Israel to grafted back into their own tree by any other means than through Christ, then surely one might argue that if God were to be just, and to be not the respecter of persons that the scriptures testify to, then why not all the Gentiles also?

 

[Bambi]

What do you mean is this what I truly believe? I don't understand your question...sorry

"...salvation was not fulfilled or the law completed in Christ; effecting perfect salvation..."

What do you mean by this statement?

 

[Bambi]

Zechariah 12
10 I will pour out on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the Spirit of grace
and of supplication, so that they will look on Me whom they have pierced; and they will mourn
for Him, as one mourns for an only son, and they will weep bitterly over Him like the bitter weeping
over a firstborn.
11 In that day there will be great mourning in Jerusalem,

It does appear that there is a specific day in the future when Israel does mourn over
what they did to Jesus. A Spirit of Grace is poured out upon physical Israel at a specific
time in the future.

John 19:34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.

According to scripture there were plenty of people weeping for Christ during his walk to the cross and at the cross. And then for the next three days.

 

[ocean73]

"...salvation was not fulfilled or the law completed in Christ; effecting perfect salvation..."

What do you mean by this statement?

The statement does not make sense out of context as you have it quoted

I was asking the op questions regarding his statements

I am referring to the fact that Jesus is only prophesied about in the OT and it was not until His death and resurrection that all the requirements of the law were fufilled in Him
because he was sinless ...salvation, according to the law, could not be met in the sense it was revealed in the NT as the blood of sacrificial animals were only a temporary
measure

The Bible states that Christ is the fullfillment of the law

 

[ocean73]

For the record, I don't someone is stating that all Israel will be saved...it appers there is always a remnant and the prophecy in Zecariah being referred to with regards to Israel looking on
the One they have pierced does not, IMO, imply or indicate that it is completed on the day of Christ's death...I was going to post a good response, but I'm not allowed to refer to links yet,
so, I'm just posting thiss to clarify where I stand.

I've seen both sides of this debate go in circles in more than one forum