Christ's Finished Atonement or Christ's Failure Atonement

[Kermos]

You make absolutely no sense no free will yet there is judgement.. perhaps the god you know isn't powerful enough and needy and needs to force things to love him idk like I said you worship your god I'm all good with mine cause that's all He is All good no darkness n He is right in all His judgement He doesn't got a force things n creatures to Love Him He is not needy like your god..
We are no
With that said you got a desire to get me n others off track to worship a mushy god that you have come to love and worship my God don't need His children to convince people..
We don't worship the same god I hope you encounter the True Living God
Seek ye the Lord while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near
ᕦ⁠⊙⁠෴⁠⊙⁠ᕤ

Hello Twistie,

You wrote "We don't worship the same god", yet it is provable that you create your idol of your free-will ability to choose God because you are on direct denial of the Christ of us Christians saying “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Your Free-willian Philosophy is so very illogical in that you believe you drive God, see post #72.

You Free-willian Philosophers believe that Christ's atonement is unfinished in that (1) a person chooses Christ in order to allow Christ's atonement to apply to the person and (2) Christ's atonement applies to everyone everywhere in all time and (3) Christ doesn't know who will choose Christ; therefore, every person who chooses Christ results in that person adding to the Body of Christ without Christ's choice/consent, so Christ's atonement is unfinished despite Christ saying “It is finished!" (John 19:30).

Yet, free-willians also believe the whole world includes everyone everywhere in all time which means this example representing fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers applies to this examination of Free-willian Philosophy:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, free-willians believe in Christ's failure atonement.

God Almighty is all mighty, so Almighty God's atonement never fails; in contrast, free-willian's people like Nancy result in free-willians believing that God is weak because Christ's atonement failed to atone for Nancy.

We Christians know that Christ's atonement always succeeds!

Believe Almighty God!

Love,
Kermos

 

[Christ4Ever]

What I have stated before still stands and won't change. We are at a loggerhead, and greater theologians then we have debated this over the ages.

Why stoicism, because you have made God a puppet master, that rather than have His creation seek Him voluntarily, they must be willed to do so.

You wrote "puppet master" in contrast to "Potter" of whom the Apostle Paul wrote:

What I was showing you that humanity without free will, which is what you are clearly saying means that God is a puppet master.
The metaphoric extension to "one actuated by the will of another, one whose actions are manipulated by another" is recorded from 1540s (as poppet).

18 He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the Molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21Or does not the Potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory
(Romans 9:18-23)

What and to whom was being written of in Chapter 9 of Romans? It was concerning Israel, and to the existing Jews who were the main part of those in the church in Rome.

The purpose here was to show that even the Gentiles were Israel, and children to Abraham and that God had determined it to be so. You take this to mean the lack of free-will, while it confirms it to me. What he is showing them is that God has decided who His people are. By faith it has decided them to be, which is a gift of God. Which all have been given it, but not all come to a saving grace from.

Verses of interest: Romans 10:17, 12:3; Ephesians 2:8-9

The "you" in Romans 9:19-20 is the person who rejects God by way of rejecting God's exclusive control of man's salvation; in other words, the "you" is the person that claims man has a free-will.

Whereby if a measure of faith is given to all, then you reject that humanity has free-will. See what I mean by being at a loggerhead?

The "you" is certainly mocking because immediately after the question about God's will, Paul wrote:

On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? (Romans 9:20)

I agree mockingly, for arguing with God to begin with, because he knows as he continues in his writings to show that "you" has the ability to make a choice so don't go blaming God because what He wills, will be done! (Loggerhead)

The very act itself requires one to be able to choose not to, even if Spirit filled,

Obedience does not mean human choice.

Obedience does mean "The quality or condition of being obedient" and "compliance" (Obedience definition at The Free Dictionary).

To achieve your stated goal, you must augment the word obedience with the word choose, as in "choose obedience".

Hunan obedience is attributed to God as per Philippians 2:13.

Do you really want to steal that which is God's?

Was that last part really necessary?

I guess we could go tit-4-tat in the meaning of being obedient.

Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Obedient

Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Obedient

webstersdictionary1828.com

Keep in mind that obedience is a practice that allows for an individual to choose to or not to comply with the action being asked of them or disobedience.

as it was with Jesus. You read it differently than I do that Jesus never had a choice and as the Son of God would have known this and made the conversation unnecessary to have in the first place.

Lord Jesus says "He who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him" (John 8:29), and since God’s pleasure is in God's will, then Christ's will always does God's will.

There is no "choose" in what Jesus says as recorded in John 8:29, just "do".

That is why I said the conversation is unnecessary if there is no free-will, because Jesus would have known being God.

The conversation was necessary because Jesus had the conversation.

Not everything Jesus said or did was recorded, were they? So, why this one, if again, free-will did not exist, making it an unnecessary point?

Your "Jesus never had a choice and as the Son of God would have known this and made the conversation unnecessary to have in the first place" is you being a micromanager.

Following your lead I guess

We are at a loggerhead brother. You believe in predestination with no free-will, while I believe in predestination with free-will. I believe this because predestination requires foreknowledge (Romans 8:29), and foreknowledge does not preclude free-will from being given to His creation. You can show that God has awareness and purpose, omniscience, but not necessarily that He causes it to be so or excludes free-will in choosing.

All that God knows will happen, even from before the foundation of the world, will certainly come to pass. Man cannot avoid that which God knows will occur.

Which is also part of what I have written above. Again free-will or not is what it comes down to, and what I am trying to show you as something that God is able to do and does do by His foreknowledge.

I do believe you will have to include "foreknowledge" and be able to show that it excludes free-will. Which by its very nature allows for it. For every verse that God's Will is done, verses also show that humanity must make decisions as well. Again, the Loggerhead! lol

My God is awesome whereby He allows for free-will to exist while still having His purpose, will to be done.

Your statement sits upon sand for it's foundation (Matthew 7:24-27) because no Word of God states man was imparted free-will by God.

No, because you have been shown verses show that humanity must make choices for which you say are no choices at all but God's will. Loggerhead.

While you believe that His will precludes free-will from existing.

I know that no Word of God states man was imparted free-will by God.

You just won't accept it, because for you it all comes down to God's will with no free-will.

One can think of the story of Joseph and what happened to him by his brothers. With no free-will his brothers did evil was intended to be done by God's will, vs the brothers free-will which was an evil action against Joseph, and God's purpose was to having good come of it. Your way would have God being the cause of sin, for His purpose to be fulfilled and

Which man was not created by God? Which man is not a sinner?

God is always good, in all that God wills and does, God is good.

According to you it was always God's will that they sin.

No, Christ4Ever, I'm not a micromanager. Lord Jesus Christ not only manages me, but the Christ's love controls me (2 Corinthians 5:14).

It takes prayer and differing time durations to respond.

I do love discussing the Word of God!

I anxiously await your response.

Love,
Kermos

Amen.
So, the Love of God controls everyone?

As do I. \o/

I didn't answer all of it. Trying to minimize the size of it all, for in the areas I did not answer, it would have changed nothing. Which I do believe anyway is the case between us on this subject of "free-will".

With the Love of Christ Jesus brother.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Twistie]

Hello Twistie,

You wrote "We don't worship the same god", yet it is provable that you create your idol of your free-will ability to choose God because you are on direct denial of the Christ of us Christians saying “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

Your Free-willian Philosophy is so very illogical in that you believe you drive God, see post #72.

You Free-willian Philosophers believe that Christ's atonement is unfinished in that (1) a person chooses Christ in order to allow Christ's atonement to apply to the person and (2) Christ's atonement applies to everyone everywhere in all time and (3) Christ doesn't know who will choose Christ; therefore, every person who chooses Christ results in that person adding to the Body of Christ without Christ's choice/consent, so Christ's atonement is unfinished despite Christ saying “It is finished!" (John 19:30).

Yet, free-willians also believe the whole world includes everyone everywhere in all time which means this example representing fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers applies to this examination of Free-willian Philosophy:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, free-willians believe in Christ's failure atonement.

God Almighty is all mighty, so Almighty God's atonement never fails; in contrast, free-willian's people like Nancy result in free-willians believing that God is weak because Christ's atonement failed to atone for Nancy.

We Christians know that Christ's atonement always succeeds!

Believe Almighty God!

Love,
Kermos

If I tell you you make no sense to me why would you write all that stuff do you think imma take in your words when you don't even make no sense?

You can't answer simple questions you give half answers n like to word dance I'm not into that..

Your not interested in discussing your interested in converting and teaching others your way(pride)

Hope you encounter the Living God The True Creator because He is beautiful..


ʘ⁠‿⁠ʘ

 

[KingJ]

No Word of God states man was imparted a free-will by God, so you adulterate the Word of God to include your "free-will" where free-will does not exist, and this is a provable fact because free-will exists not in these citations of yours as proof of free-will:

​

You made him for a little while lower than the angels; you have crowned him with glory and honor,​

(Hebrews 2:7)​

​

Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever “—​

(Genesis 3:22)​

​

Behold, no free-will in Hebrews 2:7 nor Genesis 3:22.

God creating the mind (intelligence) is not the same as God creating free-will.



So, now, you think that you can speak for God, and you can just wipe away "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18) which God includes in the Holy Scripture! You have exalted yourself above God.



You specifically mentioned "love", so let's look to Holy Scripture for the source of true love.

We children of God love by God’s working in us, for the Christ of us Christians says
“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another” (John 13:34), notice “even as I have loved you” which is God's true love.

And, John is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote “Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God” (1 John 4:7), see the phrase “love is from God” meaning God is the source of true love.

And, John expands with his writing of “God is Love, and the one who abides in Love abides in God, and God abides in him” (1 John 4:16), see the phrase “one who abides in Love” is equivocated with “one who abides” “in God” which extends from God’s exclusivity with “God is Love” and aligns with Jesus' Godly true love (John 13:34).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 13:34 states that the love, true love (John 3:33), the very righteous love, the Godly love within us children of God, this love is exclusively by/of/through God.



You specifically mentioned "repentance", so let's look to Holy Scripture for the source of true repentance.

The Christ of us Christians says
“I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to babes” (Matthew 11:25).

And, the apostles and elders are in accord with Jesus’ words with thier saying, “Well then, God has given to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life” (Acts 11:18).

So, clearly, Jesus’ words in Matthew 11:25 state that God exclusively causes man to think differently after an encounter with God (repent means to think differently afterward); in other words, Christ's love controls true repentance in man (2 Corinthians 5:14).



You specifically mentioned "servitude", so let's look to Holy Scripture for the source of such work.

We believers in Christ have fruit of the Spirit/righteous actions/good works, for the Christ of us Christians says
“he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21).

And, Paul is in accord with Jesus’ words for he wrote to the Philippians “being filled with the fruit of righteousness that [is] by Jesus Christ, to the glory and praise of God” (Philippians 1:11).

SO, clearly, Jesus’ words in John 3:21 state fruit in we believers is exclusively by/of/through God.



Jeremiah 17:9-11 records an expression of the Sovereignty of God. No free-will of man, therein.

Take note of As a partridge that hatches eggs which it has not laid, So is he who makes a fortune, but unjustly;
In the midst of his days it will forsake him, And in the end he will be a fool (Jeremiah 17:11) which is an expression that includes your "fortune" that is your fleshly "free-will choosing of God".



You add free-will to Holy Scripture, so your conclusion is error laden.



The Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation).

People falsely accused my Lord Jesus of being of the devil, and Christ says people like you would do the same to me.



Look at the first section of this post.



One either believes the Christ of us Christians who says "No one is good except God alone" (Mark 10:18 (NASB1995)) or one does not believe Christ.

Evil man sees God as partial. You see God as partial because you believe that God, the Righteous Judge, gives credence to man free-will choosing God, which is, by definition, God being partial to whatever man; furthermore, your Free-willian Philosophy leads to Christ's failure atonement as outlined in the original post.

You believe God trusts your free-will choice, yet it is written "Behold, His servants, He does not trust" (Job 4:18).

I believe that God, the Righteous Judge (Psalm 7:11), gives credence to Lord Jesus, the One Mediator (1 Timothy 2:5), which is, by definition, God being impartial to man; furthermore, I believe in Christ's finished atonement as outlined in the original post.



You say God chooses to be good.

Christ says God is good.

Your "God chooses" is out of accord with Christ's "God is".



The fact is that you make out God to show favoritism (partiality/respect/pleasure) in man's fleshly free-will mind choosing God, yet "the mind of the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able [to do so], and those who are in the flesh cannot please God" (Romans 8:7-8).

You are dancing and clearly wasting my time. I would love to get a Calvinist in a formal debate. You would lose 10 - 0.

Read and meditate on Matt 18:6.

 

[Kermos]

The Bible never speaks of man as having some separate and independent “free-will.” Rather, it shows us the two possible conditions of the heart: enslaved to sin or made alive and empowered by God. Jesus said plainly, “Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin” (John 8:34). That means the natural man is not free, he is bound to his self-will, which Scripture calls corruption and rebellion (2 Peter 2:10, Titus 3:3). Paul also wrote, “The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be” (Romans 8:7). That doesn’t sound like an independent, detached will, it sounds like bondage.

Hello bdavidc,

Praise Jesus! You explained that (1) a will is attached to a host hence the will cannot be inherently free/detached and (2) a person starts off with a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).

On the other hand, Scripture shows that when God saves a man, it is He who changes the will. Philippians 2: 13 says, “For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.” That is the exact opposite of man in his own strength somehow detaching from God and making some neutral choice. Instead, salvation is God’s work on the inside that produces both the willing and the doing.

Hallelujah! Now, you described Fruit of the Spirit, even faith itself (Galatians 5:22-23).

So the terminology of “free-will” is not only absent from the Bible, it is misleading. The Bible uses terms like “self-will” (2 Peter 2: 10) to describe the ungodly, and it speaks of being “led by the Spirit” (Romans 8:14) to describe the saved. Man is always driven, either by his corrupt self-will that ends in destruction, or by the Spirit of God that leads to life. There is no detached middle ground. That is why using “free-will” as though man could ever be separate from God’s sovereign working or from his own sinful nature is nonsense. The truth of Scripture is clear: salvation is of the Lord, and damnation is of man’s self-will.

You profoundly wrote 'the terminology of “free-will” is not only absent from the Bible, it is misleading'.

You wrote "The truth of Scripture is clear: salvation is of the Lord, and damnation is of man’s self-will". Amen.

Love,
Kermos

 

[bdavidc]

May I ask.. do you believe it's man that chooses which? Or do you believe the Almighty forces himself upon people?

Im not looking for a whole bunch of words just your thoughts please .

K thanks!

(⁠θ⁠‿⁠θ⁠)

I am not just posting MY ideas, I am posting WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. If you want a man's opinion, I am not the one to ask. But to answer your question. It's not man deciding for himself and it's not the Almighty forcing Himself. The Bible says we are a slave to sin and can't come unless the Father draws us (John 6:44, John 8:34). Many still resist the call though, Jesus said, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" (John 5:40).

 

[bdavidc]

Hello bdavidc,

Praise Jesus! You explained that (1) a will is attached to a host hence the will cannot be inherently free/detached and (2) a person starts off with a self-will (2 Peter 2:9-10).



Hallelujah! Now, you described Fruit of the Spirit, even faith itself (Galatians 5:22-23).



You profoundly wrote 'the terminology of “free-will” is not only absent from the Bible, it is misleading'.

You wrote "The truth of Scripture is clear: salvation is of the Lord, and damnation is of man’s self-will". Amen.

Love,
Kermos

Let’s be clear, this is not my wisdom, it’s simply what God’s Word says. Scripture never speaks of man as having an independent “free-will.” It shows man either as a slave to sin (John 8: 34, Romans 8:7) or as one made alive and led by the Spirit (Romans 8:14). Left to himself, man follows his own corrupt self-will that ends in destruction (2 Peter 2:10, Titus 3:3). When God saves, He changes the heart and the will: “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you” (Ezekiel 36:26), and “it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure” (Philippians 2:13).

At the same time, God truly calls all to repent: “He now commandeth all men every where to repent” (Acts 17:30), and the promise is real that “whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved” (Romans 10:13). Yet many refuse, just as Jesus said, “Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life” (John 5:40). The Bible shows both truths: salvation is entirely God’s work, and the ruin of the sinner is his own unbelief and rejection of truth. The glory belongs to God alone, because His Word makes it plain: salvation is of the Lord (Jonah 2:9), and damnation is of man’s self-will.

 

[Twistie]

I am not just posting MY ideas, I am posting WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS. If you want a man's opinion, I am not the one to ask. But to answer your question. It's not man deciding for himself and it's not the Almighty forcing Himself. The Bible says we are a slave to sin and can't come unless the Father draws us (John 6:44, John 8:34). Many still resist the call though, Jesus said, "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life" (John 5:40).

Ok so one can't even form a conclusion now ?? amazing..

Either one can choose to do right or wrong or one is forced..
Either one can choose to Love or be forced to be kept around.

Idk what god many follow.. I find it quite sad that it seems some think that the Creator is a Tyrant a bully one that must force its creation to Love him.
I find it sad so many have taken counsel with man instead of the Creator

I find it very disturbing when people say they can't come to a conclusion on their own.. they can only repeat what was heard..but can't make sense of it.

Yet it is written..

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

When one says there's is no free will or choice for man to do what is right or wrong how ever one many want to word or dance with words I find that their minds are usually seared

ʕ⁠ ⁠ꈍ⁠ᴥ⁠ꈍ⁠ʔ

 

[bdavidc]

Ok so one can't even form a conclusion now ?? amazing..

Either one can choose to do right or wrong or one is forced..
Either one can choose to Love or be forced to be kept around.

Idk what god many follow.. I find it quite sad that it seems some think that the Creator is a Tyrant a bully one that must force its creation to Love him.
I find it sad so many have taken counsel with man instead of the Creator

I find it very disturbing when people say they can't come to a conclusion on their own.. they can only repeat what was heard..but can't make sense of it.

Yet it is written..

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

When one says there's is no free will or choice for man to do what is right or wrong how ever one many want to word or dance with words I find that their minds are usually seared

ʕ⁠ ⁠ꈍ⁠ᴥ⁠ꈍ⁠ʔ

You didn’t get that from what I wrote, you twisted it. I never said God forces people, I said exactly what the Bible says: man is a slave to sin (John 8:34), no one can come unless the Father draws him (John 6:44), and yet many still refuse to come (John 5:40). That’s not tyranny, that’s Scripture. The problem isn’t that my mind is "seared," it's that you don't like what God's Word says, so you create a false version of it to argue against. Your conclusion didn't come from the Bible, it came from your own resistance to it.

 

[Kermos]

And that is why He put a new heart why one must ne born again of the spirit n you are still in the flesh it's why your so stuck on what your stuck in lol imagine the Creator got a force Love lol
Y'all flesh born is funny creatures..
I surely hope you humble yourself to allow the Spirit of the Lord to show you just How powerful He is n He don't need to force nothing to Love Him for if He was gonna do so then the Angels never would of been able to seek their will over His..

Sure hope you encounter the Living God tho..

ᕙ⁠[⁠･⁠۝･⁠]⁠ᕗ

If I tell you you make no sense to me why would you write all that stuff do you think imma take in your words when you don't even make no sense?

You can't answer simple questions you give half answers n like to word dance I'm not into that..

Your not interested in discussing your interested in converting and teaching others your way(pride)

Hope you encounter the Living God The True Creator because He is beautiful..


ʘ⁠‿⁠ʘ

Hi Twistie,

You wrote "I tell you you make no sense to me" in response to the Word of God “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation); therefore, this Holy Spirit inspired word applies to you "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Love,
Kermos

 

[Twistie]

You didn’t get that from what I wrote, you twisted it. I never said God forces people, I said exactly what the Bible says: man is a slave to sin (John 8:34), no one can come unless the Father draws him (John 6:44), and yet many still refuse to come (John 5:40). That’s not tyranny, that’s Scripture. The problem isn’t that my mind is "seared," it's that you don't like what God's Word says, so you create a false version of it to argue against. Your conclusion didn't come from the Bible, it came from your own resistance to it.

You word dance I don't get why people can't give answers straight up it's written let your yes be yes n no be no yet seems so Many Christians are unable to do that..

Like I said seared cant see blind unable to come to a conclusion of the Truth..

Very sad

◖⁠⚆⁠ᴥ⁠⚆⁠◗

 

[Twistie]

Hi Twistie,

You wrote "I tell you you make no sense to me" in response to the Word of God “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes salvation); therefore, this Holy Spirit inspired word applies to you "natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised" (1 Corinthians 2:14).

Love,
Kermos

Let your yes be yes n no be no very simple something that it seems many can't do..

◖⁠⚆⁠ᴥ⁠⚆⁠◗

 

[Kermos]

What I have stated before still stands and won't change. We are at a loggerhead, and greater theologians then we have debated this over the ages.



What I was showing you that humanity without free will, which is what you are clearly saying means that God is a puppet master.
The metaphoric extension to "one actuated by the will of another, one whose actions are manipulated by another" is recorded from 1540s (as poppet).


What and to whom was being written of in Chapter 9 of Romans? It was concerning Israel, and to the existing Jews who were the main part of those in the church in Rome.

The purpose here was to show that even the Gentiles were Israel, and children to Abraham and that God had determined it to be so. You take this to mean the lack of free-will, while it confirms it to me. What he is showing them is that God has decided who His people are. By faith it has decided them to be, which is a gift of God. Which all have been given it, but not all come to a saving grace from.

Verses of interest: Romans 10:17, 12:3; Ephesians 2:8-9


Whereby if a measure of faith is given to all, then you reject that humanity has free-will. See what I mean by being at a loggerhead?


I agree mockingly, for arguing with God to begin with, because he knows as he continues in his writings to show that "you" has the ability to make a choice so don't go blaming God because what He wills, will be done! (Loggerhead)




Was that last part really necessary?

I guess we could go tit-4-tat in the meaning of being obedient.

Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Obedient

Websters Dictionary 1828 - Webster's Dictionary 1828 - Obedient

webstersdictionary1828.com

Keep in mind that obedience is a practice that allows for an individual to choose to or not to comply with the action being asked of them or disobedience.




That is why I said the conversation is unnecessary if there is no free-will, because Jesus would have known being God.


Not everything Jesus said or did was recorded, were they? So, why this one, if again, free-will did not exist, making it an unnecessary point?


Following your lead I guess



Which is also part of what I have written above. Again free-will or not is what it comes down to, and what I am trying to show you as something that God is able to do and does do by His foreknowledge.

I do believe you will have to include "foreknowledge" and be able to show that it excludes free-will. Which by its very nature allows for it. For every verse that God's Will is done, verses also show that humanity must make decisions as well. Again, the Loggerhead! lol




No, because you have been shown verses show that humanity must make choices for which you say are no choices at all but God's will. Loggerhead.




You just won't accept it, because for you it all comes down to God's will with no free-will.




According to you it was always God's will that they sin.


Amen.
So, the Love of God controls everyone?

As do I. \o/

I didn't answer all of it. Trying to minimize the size of it all, for in the areas I did not answer, it would have changed nothing. Which I do believe anyway is the case between us on this subject of "free-will".

With the Love of Christ Jesus brother.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

Dear Christ4Ever,

The Lord willing, I will compress this exchange, further.

I read the dictionary link you provided for the word obedienct, but there was no mention of "choose". When we look at Holy Scripture, we find the Apostle uses obedience thusly "Your souls having purified in the obedience of the truth through the Spirit to brotherly love unfeigned, out of a pure heart one another love ye earnestly" ([https://biblehub.com/1_peter/1-22.htm]1 Peter 1:22, YLT[/url]).

The key phrase is through the Spirit. Lord Jesus says “he who practices the Truth comes to the Light, that his works may be revealed, that they are having been worked in God” (John 3:21).

A key theme in your post is that you claim that "you have been shown verses show that humanity must make choices", but you have not. Your claim is by your imposed implication, not the actual verse content.

Regarding Romans 9:18-23, notice that Paul did not write "who are you, O nation of Israel, who answers", but truly Paul wrote of individual persons with "On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?" (Romans 9:20). See the word man, not "nation".

You do not choose Jesus because Jesus says “you did not choose Me” (John 15:16).

God is good all the time. God would not be good and just Judge if free-will existed because that would make God partial to man who decides whether God is a good sacrifice. Man is evil apart from God, and such self-willed man (2 Peter 2:9-10) alone is accountable to God for man's sin.

Furthermore, Free-willian Philosophy results in Christ's failure atonement as outlined in the original post in this thread.

This post is succinct considering how lengthy it had been, and I do believe "So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it" (Isaiah 55:11).

Love,
Kermos

 

[Christ4Ever]

Very interesting discussion, we are having here brethren!
Rather than free-willians, how about Compatibilists and those non-free-willians as Determinists.

To get to the crux of this matter concerning free-will, and whether humanity has it or not, and which by the way covers even so much more than just atonement. We must discuss and see if we can come to an understanding about something else. The question we must know is what is God's Will? So, this is where I believe we should start, which is what is God's will and what does it encompass? Does it dictate all of humanities thoughts/actions or just some of them?

The answer each of you give will (no pun intended) align you on one of the sides of this free-will discussion, but more importantly should help us in understanding how we each understand "God's Will" to mean to us and biblically moving forward.

Below is something that I found from Bible Hub that makes it pretty generally speaking clear to the positions we are looking at and gives a general composition of God's Will. You are welcome to add or take away from it to make your own comprehensible to us the reader. Which I hope you do.

"God's Will refers to His sovereign and intentional plan for creation and humanity, as revealed in the Bible. It encompasses both God's decreed will, which is immutable and will come to pass, and God's moral will, which includes His desires for how we should live. While some interpretations suggest that God's Will dictates all human thoughts and actions, others emphasize the importance of free will and personal responsibility."

I can research and find arguments for both sides of the free-will debate, as it has been a topic of discussion long before Christianity. However, they are really based upon how we understand God's Will. Expressing it in our own words would help us clearly and simply convey how we interpret God's Will and its impact on our being/existence in Christ Jesus.

Thank-you for listening, to the above, and I hope you will take it under consideration.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[Christ4Ever]

I read the dictionary link you provided for the word obedienct, but there was no mention of "choose".

Not to stop what I have since posted on God's Will, but to the dictionary link what does "yielding" mean to you if not a conscious decision by coercion or persuasion of the individual in question?

A key theme in your post is that you claim that "you have been shown verses show that humanity must make choices", but you have not. Your claim is by your imposed implication, not the actual verse content.

Just like before, if it doesn’t explicitly say "choose" but is worded in a way that suggests decision-making by a person, and you still reject it. Isn’t decision-making—or the absence of it—exactly what we’re discussing?

You do not choose Jesus because Jesus says “you did not choose Me” (John 15:16).

Yet man has the responsibility of accepting and acting accordingly. (John 3:16, 36)

Furthermore, Free-willian Philosophy results in Christ's failure atonement as outlined in the original post in this thread.

And non-Free-willian Philosophy has a very weak God who is unable to consider free-will while ensuring atonement. lol

Let's hold off for now on this back and forth. I want to wait to see about the "God's Will", which is really the driver to whether "Free-Will" exists or not. Thanks.

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC/Moderator
Nick
\o/
<><

 

[bdavidc]

You word dance I don't get why people can't give answers straight up it's written let your yes be yes n no be no yet seems so Many Christians are unable to do that..

Like I said seared cant see blind unable to come to a conclusion of the Truth..

Very sad

◖⁠⚆⁠ᴥ⁠⚆⁠◗

You don't seem to have any understanding. Some questions don't have yes or no answers. There is no word dance, just you wanting to pervert the scriptures. You keep asking the same thing, but the truth has already been given to you straight from Scripture. The Bible says man is a slave to sin (John 8:34), no one can come unless the Father draws him (John 6:44), and many still refuse to come (John 5:40). That is clear and plain. The issue isn’t that you don’t have an answer, it’s that you don’t want to accept the one God gives. Stop pretending you’re seeking truth when all you’re doing is twisting the Bible to fit what you want it to say. If you don’t want the real answer, then stop asking. You're the sad one for sure.

 

[Jeff Bacon]

When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, “It is finished!” Then he bowed his head and gave up his spirit (John 19:30).

He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world (1 John 2:2.

Christ's finished atonement is for the whole world, and the whole world includes exclusively the persons whom the Christ chooses as recipients for Christ's atonement.

The Christ of us Christians says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19, includes atonement).

Christ's atonement is finished and complete and always succeeds as per the Christ saying “It is finished!"!

Christ's teaching is that atonement makes a person "at one" with God by God's grace for God's glory (John 17)!

On the contrary, Free-willian Philosophy results in Christ's failure atonement.

Christ's failure atonement is for the whole world, and the whole world includes everyone everywhere in all time because a person free-will chooses Christ.

Free-willians believe that Christ's atonement is unfinished in that (1) a person chooses Christ in order to allow Christ's atonement to apply to the person and (2) Christ's atonement applies to everyone everywhere in all time and (3) Christ doesn't know who will choose Christ; therefore, every person who chooses Christ results in that person adding to the Body of Christ without Christ's choice/consent, so Christ's atonement is unfinished despite Christ saying “It is finished!".

Yet, free-willians also believe the whole world includes everyone everywhere in all time which means this example representing fleshly people, dead in sin, ungodly multitude, unbelievers applies to this examination of Free-willian Philosophy:

• if Tom of the world chooses to believe in Christ before he dies, then God must profit Tom with eternal life being saved from the wrath of God.
• if Nancy of the world chooses to believe not in Christ right until her dying thoughts, then God must punish Nancy with eternal damnation being under the wrath of God.
• The conclusion: Christ's atonement succeeded in saving Tom of the world, and Christ's atonement failed in saving Nancy of the world.

So, free-willians believe in Christ's failure atonement.

God Almighty is all mighty, so Almighty God's atonement never fails; in contrast, free-willian's people like Nancy result in free-willians believing that God is weak because Christ's atonement failed to atone for Nancy.

We Christians know that Christ's atonement always succeeds!

Christ died for all sins for every person for all time.
However, in His sovereignty, he established free will.
Everyone has a choice to accept or reject Jesus.
That is not a failure. That is God's sovereign plan. If someone rejects Jesus, that is their own failure.
If God wants to extend grace to someone who has never heard the gospel, that is His prerogative.
The debt is paid in full. Some just love the darkness more than the light. John 3:19-21.

 

[Twistie]

You don't seem to have any understanding. Some questions don't have yes or no answers. There is no word dance, just you wanting to pervert the scriptures. You keep asking the same thing, but the truth has already been given to you straight from Scripture. The Bible says man is a slave to sin (John 8:34), no one can come unless the Father draws him (John 6:44), and many still refuse to come (John 5:40). That is clear and plain. The issue isn’t that you don’t have an answer, it’s that you don’t want to accept the one God gives. Stop pretending you’re seeking truth when all you’re doing is twisting the Bible to fit what you want it to say. If you don’t want the real answer, then stop asking. You're the sad one for sure.

All questions have a yes and no that's like saying there is no right or wrong
That's why I wrote what is written about people like that..

Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Personally it boggles me idk perhaps I just get on peoples nerves or something n that's why many call me names.. idk I get tired of saying this but perhaps it would help new people I converse with understand me a bit better.

Tho I can read I basically can't follow what I read after a certain point I'm also unable to learn new things unless one can sit n show me day after day for about a week n then I gotta do it every day to remember been like this since a youngin I have had some major trauma to the brain a few times just got tired of docs.. learned to live with it..

Everything that I do know about the Word is from Him He has taught and guided me.. n this i do know I know He is not the best of confusion He is never in a grey area I know He means what's He says n says what He means n that He will never steer me wrong..

I know that as close I am to Him now it's of my choice if I wish to praise Him all day or if I wanna go hold up the store down the street I know I am in control of my actions n my decision..
So when I hear one claim he ain't got free will kind sounds to me like they trying to cop out of the responsibility of being responsible for their choice to do evil..

Idk it is written let your yes be yes n your no be no..

Not a difficult thing to do unless one likes the grey area(Luke warm)

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[Kermos]

You are dancing and clearly wasting my time. I would love to get a Calvinist in a formal debate. You would lose 10 - 0.

Read and meditate on Matt 18:6.

Hi KingJ,

Where is the Calvinist?

I am a Christian because I believe Christ.

Christ says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19).

Your "Someone like you however. Someone who misrepresents God as partial and pure evil" (proof post #20) demonstrates that you already lost before your formal debate even had a chance to start because Christ says "he who does not believe has been judged already" (John 3:18).

Believe Christ!

Love,
Kermos

 

[KingJ]

Hi KingJ,

Where is the Calvinist?

I am a Christian because I believe Christ.

Christ says “you did not choose Me, but I chose you” (John 15:16) and “I chose you out of the world” (John 15:19).

Your "Someone like you however. Someone who misrepresents God as partial and pure evil" (proof post #20) demonstrates that you already lost before your formal debate even had a chance to start because Christ says "he who does not believe has been judged already" (John 3:18).

Believe Christ!

Love,
Kermos

You want to take a stab at a formal debate? You need to answer a question without dancing. Direct question, direct answer.

I am up for trying.

1. Provide a dictionary definition for the word 'partial'.
2. Since there is an eternal heaven and hell, how is God removing our free will not partiality? or
3. Explain how God is just if He is partial.

The problem is that in every post so far you dance on point 1.