Christians Always Met on the Lord's Day not the Sabbath

[judge not]

I not surprised with your answer. We do both follow very different gospels.

The thief on the cross is a clear contradiction to your gospel. Your "exception to the rule" rationale implies that God is unjust, and that those who are saved on their death beds are truly blessed over all who live on as Christians, thanks to the luck of circumstance.

We both argue to obey God, but we both see each other as being in disobedience.

Unfortunately the doctrine your follow is a lukewarm mix of grace with works of the law. God rejects this, Rev 3:16.
You cannot mix grace with works of the law, Rom 11:6

I'm curious whether you are of the view that perfect obedience to the law is required or whether some lessor, yet acceptable level of obedience is okay with God?

God decides what is just.

Rev 3:16- is not about doctrine, it's about commitment.

Grace and works are complementary rather than contradictory.
Salvation is a gift we receive by grace.
No amount of works can earn salvation, but this is not to say that eternal life is free in an ultimate sense.
there are conditions we must meet.
Tho our works will not earn us eternal life they will determine our reward - Rev 22:12
We demonstrate our faith in God by our obedience and as sinners and imperfect it requires renewed repentance in order to stay on the straight and narrow.

 

[Barny]

God decides what is just.

Your answer above suggests that you believe that an unknown level of obedience to the law is required as a minimum for evidence that one is abiding in Christ.

This ambiguous gospel you follow is clearly not supported in scripture.

We demonstrate our faith in God by our obedience and as sinners and imperfect it requires renewed repentance in order to stay on the straight and narrow.

How can you demonstrate your faith in God by obedience when you don't know what level of obedience is required as a minimum?
And as you are claiming that an unknown amount of good lifestyle is proof of righteousness, does this then include non-believers who live a good lifestyle?

You speak of repentance, but seem to misunderstand it's application in scripture.
Heb 6:1 speaks of our repentance from "dead works".
These were dead works of self-righteousness, which is sin.

Now to repent is to have such great regret that you stop doing it.
Have you ever repented of the same offense more than once?

And getting back to repentance from dead works, we see Heb 6:4-6; explain that it's impossible to be renewed to repentance after you have fallen away.
Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Now only past sin was dealt with at the cross, Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

As only past sin was dealt with at the cross, why are you saying we're still repenting of sin after receiving Christ.
Instead we find scripture show that Christians repented of their "dead works"/Sin already when they received Christ. This is a once only repentance, as described in Heb 6:4-6.

For anyone to fall in to sin again means that they have turned back to the law to determine their righteousness.
Gal 2:18
if I build again the things which I destroyed (dead works of righteousness by the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner.

This is confirmed in Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully (Gal 2:18) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (gospel of grace), there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

It seems the doctrine you follow is a complicated one leading people back under the law with expectations of unknown levels of obedience to the law as proof of righteousness.
Such doctrines can only corrupt peoples minds away from the simplicity that is in Christ, 2Cor 11:3.

 

[papajim]

I not surprised with your answer. We do both follow very different gospels.

The thief on the cross is a clear contradiction to your gospel. Your "exception to the rule" rationale implies that God is unjust, and that those who are saved on their death beds are truly blessed over all who live on as Christians, thanks to the luck of circumstance.

We both argue to obey God, but we both see each other as being in disobedience.

Unfortunately the doctrine your follow is a lukewarm mix of grace with works of the law. God rejects this, Rev 3:16.
You cannot mix grace with works of the law, Rom 11:6

I'm curious whether you are of the view that perfect obedience to the law is required or whether some lessor, yet acceptable level of obedience is okay with God?

Hello Barny,
I guess it is all a matter of perspective, I believe the theif on the cross gave all he had to give and no more could be expected of him.

Luke 21:1-4 "And he looked up, and saw the rich men castig their gifts into the treasury. And he saw also a cetain poor widow casting in thither two mites. And he said, of a truth I say unto you that this poor widow hath cast in more than they all: For all these have of their abudance cast in unto the offerings of God: but she of her penury hath cast in all the living that she had."
If we give all we have no more can be expected of us. Their are two great commandments that fulfill all of the law. Mark 12:29-31 which is old testament and new testament law. "And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is Hear O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy Heart, and with All Thy Soul and with all Thy Mind, and with all Thy Strength: this is the first commandment and the second is like namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as theyself. there is none other commandment greater than these. Compare Deut. 6:4,5, Lev. 19:8

"For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not steal, thou shalt not bear false witness, thou shalt not covet: and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love s the fulfilling of the law." Romans 13:9 10

This should pretty well sum it up Barny, there is more to love than to not just commit fornication. Here Paul, the same writer that wrote Romans chapter 6, tells us here that we are to keep the commandments of God by loving one another.
Yes, we have the imputed righteousness of God in Christ, but we are to act this out in our physical behaviour. The God of the old testament, Jesus in the new testemant, and Paul the teacher of the gospel, all tell us the same thing.

 

[spirit1st]

Many of the Called fall away! The Elect cannot!

1Jn_3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn_5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

The new Spirit He gives the few willing to follow only Him . cannot sin!
Sure our flesh can sin and does! No person on earth lives a perfect life !

that why our flesh dies and Returns to the sinfilled earth 1 Which is also dying a slow death ! Jesus did not dies to save the planet or our flesh bodies!
He died that We could be born -again , made a new Creature !

We Die at Salvation and never dies again ! We just leave these weak sin filled bodies and Go Home ! New jerusalem ] ! where he has the New names for each of us and New bodies and crowns and Robes and New jobs and much more!


Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.


This is the works of Your flesh and mine!
Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

This is the work of our Spirit once Born into God kingdom and family !


Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.


Each of Us who are Born Of GOD ! walk somewhat in our Spirit ? The More we walk thur it ! The More we Appear like our Lord JESUS !

Of course we do not see our Spirit normally ! But it the child of God !

Rom_9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God

Rom_8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.


Our flesh thinkoing and works done by our flesh thinking is not going to please HIM!

Though our Spirit we can and do please HIM!

Rom_1:9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son,

That Why the just live by Faith ! Not Sight !


1Pe 2:4 To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed indeed of men, but chosen of God, and precious,
1Pe 2:5 Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ.

Our Spirit man is our Eternal being ! Our Flesh is NOT! Only our Spirit man goes to Hell or New Jerusalem !

We Must Be Born -Again ! In order to have a Relationship forever More With our Creator as Father and Friend ! Other wise our prayers are even evil to HIM !

Salvation , which is eternal life is a free gift ! We do not buy it or get it by good works ! But it does require us accepting His gospel and Him , from our heart [Spirit] as Lord !

This is HIS gospel and Only way to Eternal life !
1Co 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
1Co 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Rom_8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of sin!

Rom_1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. Rom_6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

 

[judge not]

Your answer above suggests that you believe that an unknown level of obedience to the law is required as a minimum for evidence that one is abiding in Christ.

This ambiguous gospel you follow is clearly not supported in scripture.



How can you demonstrate your faith in God by obedience when you don't know what level of obedience is required as a minimum?
And as you are claiming that an unknown amount of good lifestyle is proof of righteousness, does this then include non-believers who live a good lifestyle?

You speak of repentance, but seem to misunderstand it's application in scripture.
Heb 6:1 speaks of our repentance from "dead works".
These were dead works of self-righteousness, which is sin.

Now to repent is to have such great regret that you stop doing it.
Have you ever repented of the same offense more than once?

And getting back to repentance from dead works, we see Heb 6:4-6; explain that it's impossible to be renewed to repentance after you have fallen away.
Heb 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Now only past sin was dealt with at the cross, Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

As only past sin was dealt with at the cross, why are you saying we're still repenting of sin after receiving Christ.
Instead we find scripture show that Christians repented of their "dead works"/Sin already when they received Christ. This is a once only repentance, as described in Heb 6:4-6.

For anyone to fall in to sin again means that they have turned back to the law to determine their righteousness.
Gal 2:18
if I build again the things which I destroyed (dead works of righteousness by the law), I make myself a transgressor/Sinner.

This is confirmed in Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully (Gal 2:18) after that we have received the knowledge of the truth (gospel of grace), there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

It seems the doctrine you follow is a complicated one leading people back under the law with expectations of unknown levels of obedience to the law as proof of righteousness.
Such doctrines can only corrupt peoples minds away from the simplicity that is in Christ, 2Cor 11:3.

Jesus does tell us what level of obedience He wants from us individually:
Matthew 22; 37-40 - we have to give everything we have with all our heart, soul and mind. The best we humanly can.

daily repentance is required-conversion is only the beginning of God's work in your life,
By obedience we are simply doing our duty as Christians.

Jesus says we must be even more righteous than the Pharisees were - Matt 5:20. And Jesus would be the sole authority of faith, grace, and obedience, right?

We don't make ourselves right by obedience but it does provide the evidence we have faith by which we are saved.
Re-iterating = obedience establishes faith.

Just curious how many people in the forum think there is nothing they can do to lose salvation-eternal security so to speak?

 

[farout]

Ifyou want to keep the "Sabbath" then re you willing to do all the things that go along with it ? It's not just worshiping on Saturday !


farout

 

[Barny]

Yes, we have the imputed righteousness of God in Christ, but we are to act this out in our physical behaviour.

Hi papajim,

If you love God you will obey His will that we believe in Jesus, John 6:40.

Sadly the doctrine you follow is disobedience to God's will as you have turned instead to the law for righteousness, thus making yourself a sinner, Gal 2:18. Like the Pharisees you seek righteousness by works demanding perfect obedience to the law.

 

[Barny]

Jesus does tell us what level of obedience He wants from us individually:
Matthew 22; 37-40 - we have to give everything we have with all our heart, soul and mind. The best we humanly can.
daily repentance is required-conversion is only the beginning of God's work in your life,
By obedience we are simply doing our duty as Christians.
Jesus says we must be even more righteous than the Pharisees were - Matt 5:20. And Jesus would be the sole authority of faith, grace, and obedience, right?
We don't make ourselves right by obedience but it does provide the evidence we have faith by which we are saved.
Re-iterating = obedience establishes faith.

Just curious how many people in the forum think there is nothing they can do to lose salvation-eternal security so to speak?

To answer your question, see my post #62 which you quoted. Salvation can be lost if you turn to the law to determine righteousness. This is unbelief in Jesus if you think that righteousness and salvation are in any way determined by how good a lifestyle you live.

Tit 1:16
"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny Him"

As you argue that some unknown level of obedience to the law is required as evidence that we abide in Christ, how would you see the outcome for a believer who lives daily in adultery (Mark:10:11,12, common amongst Christians these days) for the rest of their life? And what of the many denominations who do not observe the Sabbath?

 

[DHC]

Jesus does tell us what level of obedience He wants from us individually:
Matthew 22; 37-40 - we have to give everything we have with all our heart, soul and mind. The best we humanly can.

daily repentance is required-conversion is only the beginning of God's work in your life,
By obedience we are simply doing our duty as Christians.

Jesus says we must be even more righteous than the Pharisees were - Matt 5:20. And Jesus would be the sole authority of faith, grace, and obedience, right?

We don't make ourselves right by obedience but it does provide the evidence we have faith by which we are saved.
Re-iterating = obedience establishes faith.

Hello judge not, this is an interesting thread.

You quoted;

Matthew 5:20
20 For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the
scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Then you said "obedience establishes faith".

If you do not mind judge not, i must ask you a question.

Further on in the chapter from Matthew's Gospel that you quoted, it says;

48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

How do you explain (Matthew 5:20) and (Matthew 5:48)?

What level of obedience does (Matthew 5:48) require?

You also said "obedience establishes faith" where did you obtain this idea?

 

[DHC]

Hello all.

The statement "the ten commandments" always appears
here and there in posts throughout TJ. For those folk who
utter this line have ommitted other commandments. I am
constantly surprised at this abbreviation of the commands
that God gave.

For some reason a number of commands are always disregarded.

Why is the following command for example, from Jesus always omitted.

Matthew 5
34 But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven,
for it is the throne of God,
35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem,
for it is the city of the great King.

Or this command;

32 ...and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Why do those who claim the "ten commandments" always neglect
to mention the other commandments?

I need to know why the phrase "the ten commandments" is the
phrase of choice, when it was never the yardstick of obedience.

 

[judge not]

Hello judge not, this is an interesting thread.

You quoted;

Matthew 5:20
20 For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the
scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Then you said "obedience establishes faith".

If you do not mind judge not, i must ask you a question.

Further on in the chapter from Matthew's Gospel that you quoted, it says;

48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

How do you explain (Matthew 5:20) and (Matthew 5:48)?

What level of obedience does (Matthew 5:48) require?

You also said "obedience establishes faith" where did you obtain this idea?

well on 48 God expects us to build spiritually mature, godly character in our life becoming even more like Him.
To strive to emulate our Father as our example of perfection.

Matt 5:20-Jesus meant for His disciples to obey God's laws beyond anything they had ever heard before-inwardly rather than outwardly- to obey the spirit of the law rather than just the letter of the law.

As mentioned in an earlier post, the very best we can muster from our whole heart, soul and mind reaching our own individual pinnacle-re Matt 5:48

Jesus never said obedience was unnecessary.
Through obedience we can learn the godly traits of sound judgment, loving mercy, and steadfast faith.
Jesus said following Him requires a great deal of sacrifice-this demands living active, deeply committed obedience which shows our faith in His leadership,
disobedience shows a lack of faith.
Obedience is a willing expression of gratitude for all Jesus did for us.

Using " establishes" or proving or maybe verifies just means obedience substantiates our faith, in my understanding.

 

[DHC]

well on 48 God expects us to build spiritually mature, godly character in our life becoming even more like Him.
To strive to emulate our Father as our example of perfection.

Hello judge not.

Grateful for the reply judge not.

Your interpretation is below;

"well on 48 God expects us to build spiritually mature, godly character in our life becoming even more like Him.
To strive to emulate our Father as our example of perfection."

We do differ in our understanding of the quoted verse.

Matthew 5
48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

It clearly says "you are to be perfect".

I do most strongly disagree with your reply judge not.

Is perfection possible, yes, read the following verses.

Philippians 3:15
Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in
anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;

Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bond slave of Jesus Christ,
sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers,
that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God.

Hebrews 11:39-40
And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive
what was promised, because God had provided something better for us,
so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

From the above verses, perfection has been achieved, "as many as are perfect".

So the obvious question then becomes, what is the "perfection" that Jesus
is referring to exactly?

 

[papajim]

Hi papajim,

If you love God you will obey His will that we believe in Jesus, John 6:40.

Sadly the doctrine you follow is disobedience to God's will as you have turned instead to the law for righteousness, thus making yourself a sinner, Gal 2:18. Like the Pharisees you seek righteousness by works demanding perfect obedience to the law.

Hello Barny,

Actually you are incorrect here as I believe and follow Jesus, I look to Him for righteousness for only God is righteous, I have His righteousness in Jesus. My righteousness was crucified in Jesus, my sin and sinning was all crucifed in Jesus so in Him I am freed from both. If I do not sin through faith, there is no law to judge me if I sin, it is through unbelief that I am freed from it. Lord I beleve help thou my unbelief.

Does this mean that you reject Rom. 13:9,10? You have said in the past the commandments are to love one another did you not? Here Paul tells us through the law how we are to do this, it is a simple thing Barny. Love is the motive here, it is through love that the law is kept. The law shows everthing against love so that by understanding this we can see love, what it is and what it isn't. Barny if you were to love your neighbor, I know that you would not covet his posessions, even if you don't recognize the law you would still fulfill it, just because you love in the true sense of the word. Your view of the law is incorrect, you see it as some unobtainable thing, but love in itself obtains obedience to it. Love comes from God, we have this in Christ. Christ fulfilled the law, in us, He continues to fulfill it. It is not I that lives, but Christ in me.

Romans 12:1 "I beseeech you therefore, brethern, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

 

[Barny]

Hello Barny,

Actually you are incorrect here as I believe and follow Jesus, I look to Him for righteousness for only God is righteous, I have His righteousness in Jesus. My righteousness was crucified in Jesus, my sin and sinning was all crucifed in Jesus so in Him I am freed from both. If I do not sin through faith, there is no law to judge me if I sin, it is through unbelief that I am freed from it. Lord I beleve help thou my unbelief.
Does this mean that you reject Rom. 13:9,10? You have said in the past the commandments are to love one another did you not? Here Paul tells us through the law how we are to do this, it is a simple thing Barny. Love is the motive here, it is through love that the law is kept. The law shows everthing against love so that by understanding this we can see love, what it is and what it isn't. Barny if you were to love your neighbor, I know that you would not covet his posessions, even if you don't recognize the law you would still fulfill it, just because you love in the true sense of the word. Your view of the law is incorrect, you see it as some unobtainable thing, but love in itself obtains obedience to it. Love comes from God, we have this in Christ. Christ fulfilled the law, in us, He continues to fulfill it. It is not I that lives, but Christ in me.
Romans 12:1 "I beseeech you therefore, brethern, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service."

Hi papajim,

Your unbelief lies in the fact that you do not see anyone as righteous unless they perfectly obey the law. Remember those comments you made that I quoted confirming this?

A simple question for you. What is the position of Christians in these 2 examples below?

Most denominations do not observe Saturday Sabbath. What do you understand is their position if they never observe the Sabbath?

In our modern culture of divorce and remarriage (adultery, Mark 10:11,12) many Christians have likewise followed this trend. Where do they stand according to the doctrine you follow?

 

[papajim]

Hello all.

The statement "the ten commandments" always appears
here and there in posts throughout TJ. For those folk who
utter this line have ommitted other commandments. I am
constantly surprised at this abbreviation of the commands
that God gave.

For some reason a number of commands are always disregarded.

Why is the following command for example, from Jesus always omitted.

Matthew 5
34 But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven,
for it is the throne of God,
35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem,
for it is the city of the great King.

Or this command;

32 ...and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

Why do those who claim the "ten commandments" always neglect
to mention the other commandments?

I need to know why the phrase "the ten commandments" is the
phrase of choice, when it was never the yardstick of obedience.

Good day DHC,

it is character that God is interested in, and you are right there are other commands that apply, but all are to mold us into the perfection of Christ. I have said that there are laws of health, and laws against sexual immorality and against spiritualism, and other laws to teach us honesty, and moral behaviour. All of these laws apply for our benifet to bring us unto a perfect man in Christ. If it wasn't for laws we could not discern what was good and what was evil, so through the laws comes knowledge, to show us what behaviour is, or is not exceptable to God. It was through the law that we understand righteousness, (love) though we cannot obtain righteousness through it.

We do not see as God sees, so He gave us laws so that we can see, at least in part. In other words the laws give us site, but have no power to change us, or we have no power through the law to change. Change comes by faith and faith alone. Faith comes to us through a relationship with God, and through this relationship comes faith, and through faith, comes the character of Christ.

 

[papajim]

Hi papajim,

Your unbelief lies in the fact that you do not see anyone as righteous unless they perfectly obey the law. Remember those comments you made that I quoted confirming this?

A simple question for you. What is the position of Christians in these 2 examples below?

Most denominations do not observe Saturday Sabbath. What do you understand is their position if they never observe the Sabbath?

In our modern culture of divorce and remarriage (adultery, Mark 10:11,12) many Christians have likewise followed this trend. Where do they stand according to the doctrine you follow?

Not quite Barny, we as a people have a hard time believing that we are righteous, that is why we are sometimes disobedient. We have been made righteous, if we truly believe we can live righteous. In your mind we cannont live righteous so there is no character change in us at all, in fact it is irrelevant to you that we live righteously or not. If you would study the sanctuary service in the old testament you would find that the slaying of the animal was the beginning of the service not the end of it.

All mistakes are made either through ignorance or unbelief, all sin was forgiven at the cross, if a man sins intentionally without repentence his sin remains with him, but if he repents and lays his sins to Jesus, Jesus is faithful to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, and when I say cleanse, it is to set us apart from sin, and that is what forgiveness is, removing it from us.

It's all about learning and growing Barny, when we all come to Jesus we are like the theif on the cross, but through a relationship we will grow in faith and love, and through love, we would prefer to please God rather than ourselves. I say, show Israel their sins, and let God be the judge.

You have not answered my question Barny, do you reject Romans 13:9,10? and if you don't reject it, what does it mean to you?

 

[Barny]

Not quite Barny, we as a people have a hard time believing that we are righteous, that is why we are sometimes disobedient. We have been made righteous, if we truly believe we can live righteous. In your mind we cannont live righteous so there is no character change in us at all, in fact it is irrelevant to you that we live righteously or not. If you would study the sanctuary service in the old testament you would find that the slaying of the animal was the beginning of the service not the end of it.

All mistakes are made either through ignorance or unbelief, all sin was forgiven at the cross, if a man sins intentionally without repentence his sin remains with him, but if he repents and lays his sins to Jesus, Jesus is faithful to cleanse us from all unrighteousness, and when I say cleanse, it is to set us apart from sin, and that is what forgiveness is, removing it from us.

It's all about learning and growing Barny, when we all come to Jesus we are like the theif on the cross, but through a relationship we will grow in faith and love, and through love, we would prefer to please God rather than ourselves. I say, show Israel their sins, and let God be the judge.

You have not answered my question Barny, do you reject Romans 13:9,10?

To love one another is the same commandment that Jesus gave, such as we see in 1John 3:23,24.
And in this imperfect world with all our failings and misunderstanding each others life perspectives, etc, love forgives 7x70.

But the doctrine you follow does not forgive 7x70. The doctrine you follow is not love. It demands perfect obedience to the law or else condemnation results, as your answer to my examples reveals.

 

[papajim]

To love one another is the same commandment that Jesus gave, such as we see in 1John 3:23,24.
And in this imperfect world with all our failings and misunderstanding each others life perspectives, etc, love forgives 7x70.

But the doctrine you follow does not forgive 7x70. The doctrine you follow is not love. It demands perfect obedience to the law or else condemnation results, as your answer to my examples reveals.

Yes it does forgive 7x70, love always forgives indefinetly. God does not reject us, we reject Him. Perfect obedience to the law is agape love Barny love from heaven that forgives continuelsy. It does come to a point that we greive away the Holy Spirit and cannot be reached and at this point we do not except forgiveness. You seem to look at the gospel of Christ one sided, you look at it from the point of view that God gave or gives, but we have the choice to recieve or not, and this is the part that you do not understand.

"And in this imperfect world with all our failings and misunderstanding each others life perspectives, etc,"

Yes Barny the world is imperfect, but we are not of the world we are a peculiar people sanctified in the Lord, we are different. I know we all have different battles that we go through, God knows our battles and He gives us strength to overcome through a love relationship with Him. Whatever our problems are, He is greater.

You still have not answered my question.

 

[judge not]

Hello judge not.

Grateful for the reply judge not.

Your interpretation is below;

"well on 48 God expects us to build spiritually mature, godly character in our life becoming even more like Him.
To strive to emulate our Father as our example of perfection."

We do differ in our understanding of the quoted verse.

Matthew 5
48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

It clearly says "you are to be perfect".

I do most strongly disagree with your reply judge not.

Is perfection possible, yes, read the following verses.

Philippians 3:15
Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in
anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;

Colossians 4:12
Epaphras, who is one of your number, a bond slave of Jesus Christ,
sends you his greetings, always laboring earnestly for you in his prayers,
that you may stand perfect and fully assured in all the will of God.

Hebrews 11:39-40
And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive
what was promised, because God had provided something better for us,
so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

From the above verses, perfection has been achieved, "as many as are perfect".

So the obvious question then becomes, what is the "perfection" that Jesus
is referring to exactly?

I cannot add much more to this other than my understanding :
We have a small measure now of the divine through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. as begotten children of God we are in the process, the gestation period of deification as a member of God's family (2 Cor 6:18).
God's ultimate purpose for us, our destiny, is to exalt us from our fleshy life to His level of divine spirit existence in the Resurrection at Christ's return-that will be the perfection that scripture calls ' the fullness of God " Eph 3;19.
We have the potential of becoming the kind of beings the Father and Christ now are.
In the KJV Phil 3:15 -I'm reading as many as be perfect -which I interpret spiritually mature,-rather than as are perfect.
But overall I believe perfection comes at the time of transformation to spirit.
Thank you.

 

[Thiscrosshurts]

But overall I believe perfection comes at the time of transformation to spirit.

1 John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world

The key to love made(not being made) is in this verse.
The belief that as he is so are we in this world.
It does not say "as he was" in this world it says as "he is" and it does not say "we will be" it says we are.
If I am waiting for this then I already don't believe it.

God's ultimate purpose for us, our destiny, is to exalt us from our fleshy life to His level of divine spirit existence in the Resurrection at Christ's return-that will be the perfection that scripture calls ' the fullness of God " Eph 3, 19.

John 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

I submit to you that the resurrection is a person and not a date in time.