Christian-ese

[B-A-C]

If you are speaking to me first person to second person with the above words then I guess the conversation is over

The part about God judging was not directed at you. It was just to say, God will judge.

Everyday my boss judges me at work. Some days are good days, some days not as good. I have made mistakes in my job over the years.
But once a year he calls me in for a review. Sometimes I get a raise, sometimes I don't. But on the other hand, sometimes people are let go.

Everything we need to know is in the Bible. But there are different levels of "knowing". Some things in the Bible are written plainly.
Some things in the Bible are "hidden" and have to be revealed by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, sometimes Jesus spoke in parables, but not always.

Mark 4:34; and He did not speak to them without a parable; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.

In the case of the disciples, he explained everything to them.

Matt 13:34; All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable.

I have no doubt Jesus spoke in parables to this crowd. But did He always speak that way to everyone?

Matt 13:53; When Jesus had finished these parables, He departed from there.
Matt 13:54; He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?

Sometimes Jesus quit telling parables, and got down to straight "teaching". Apparently people understood what He was saying they were "astonished" at His wisdom.

We as Christians can't just go around saying everything in the Bible is "unknowable" and the teachings of Jesus all are deep and unfathomable.
If that's the case, why even read the Bible?

Most of the time, in the Bible when it says something. It just means what it says.
We don't have to try to twist it into something else. When it says people will be judged, it means they will be judged.
When it says they will be cast into the lake of fire, they will cast into the fire. There is no need to wrangle meanings and word-smith here.
We just need to take the Bible at face value.

Even the parables, often times are explained. For example the parable in Luke 8:4-8; is explained in Luke 8:9-15;
I won't say I understand everything in the Bible, but certain parables are fairly basic and are understood even by "baby" Christians.
Things like, don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, and don't commit adultery are understood even by non-Christians.
They may not agree with it, they may not obey it... but they understand it.

God is not some namby-pamby God, that just people do whatever they want without any consequences.

People are always confusing what love is. God is love. Yes, but He is also a consuming fire. He is also the judge of all mankind.
He has love for His children, but He has wrath for those who choose not to be. Some people confuse love with sex.
Other people confuse love with being "nice" and "tolerant". Neither is what love is.

You often hear people say, God is good. ... and so He is ... but good doesn't always mean nice.

We need to quit pretending the Bible says anything else but it plainly says. Even parables can be understood plainly.
We need to quit twisting everything into some nebulous unknowable mystery. There are mysteries in the Bible, but if nothing
in the Bible can be understood, why did God even give it to us?

 

[B-A-C]

Are you putting these definitions forward as a description of what you mean by each of the words, or as a description of what the Bible authors and first readers meant?

I personally agree with @Chad here. But or sake of argument, what are your definitions? .. and where would you get those definitions from?

 

[Bendito]

The part about God judging was not directed at you. It was just to say, God will judge.

Everyday my boss judges me at work. Some days are good days, some days not as good. I have made mistakes in my job over the years.
But once a year he calls me in for a review. Sometimes I get a raise, sometimes I don't. But on the other hand, sometimes people are let go.

Everything we need to know is in the Bible. But there are different levels of "knowing". Some things in the Bible are written plainly.
Some things in the Bible are "hidden" and have to be revealed by the Holy Spirit.

Yes, sometimes Jesus spoke in parables, but not always.

Mark 4:34; and He did not speak to them without a parable; but He was explaining everything privately to His own disciples.

In the case of the disciples, he explained everything to them.

Matt 13:34; All these things Jesus spoke to the crowds in parables, and He did not speak to them without a parable.

I have no doubt Jesus spoke in parables to this crowd. But did He always speak that way to everyone?

Matt 13:53; When Jesus had finished these parables, He departed from there.
Matt 13:54; He came to His hometown and began teaching them in their synagogue, so that they were astonished, and said, "Where did this man get this wisdom and these miraculous powers?

Sometimes Jesus quit telling parables, and got down to straight "teaching". Apparently people understood what He was saying they were "astonished" at His wisdom.

We as Christians can't just go around saying everything in the Bible is "unknowable" and the teachings of Jesus all are deep and unfathomable.
If that's the case, why even read the Bible?

Most of the time, in the Bible when it says something. It just means what it says.
We don't have to try to twist it into something else. When it says people will be judged, it means they will be judged.
When it says they will be cast into the lake of fire, they will cast into the fire. There is no need to wrangle meanings and word-smith here.
We just need to take the Bible at face value.

Even the parables, often times are explained. For example the parable in Luke 8:4-8; is explained in Luke 8:9-15;
I won't say I understand everything in the Bible, but certain parables are fairly basic and are understood even by "baby" Christians.
Things like, don't kill, don't steal, don't lie, and don't commit adultery are understood even by non-Christians.
They may not agree with it, they may not obey it... but they understand it.

God is not some namby-pamby God, that just people do whatever they want without any consequences.

People are always confusing what love is. God is love. Yes, but He is also a consuming fire. He is also the judge of all mankind.
He has love for His children, but He has wrath for those who choose not to be. Some people confuse love with sex.
Other people confuse love with being "nice" and "tolerant". Neither is what love is.

You often hear people say, God is good. ... and so He is ... but good doesn't always mean nice.

We need to quit pretending the Bible says anything else but it plainly says. Even parables can be understood plainly.
We need to quit twisting everything into some nebulous unknowable mystery. There are mysteries in the Bible, but if nothing
in the Bible can be understood, why did God even give it to us?

My friend, correct me if I'm getting the wrong impression here. It seems to me that you're looking at the Word in a purely legal sense.. It is most definitely a legal document but there is much more to it. Instruction manual, love letter etc... How are you looking at it? I mean besides a legal document

The Word does say that unbelievers are judged already....They are judged to be dead in sin, just like you and I were...They will go into the judgement if they do not get saved and will end up in hell. But God loves them.
Christians, believers are not judged at this time, but we are instructed to 'judge ourselves' and how many of us do that?

 

[Hekuran]

I personally agree with @Chad here. But or sake of argument, what are your definitions? .. and where would you get those definitions from?

I'm not smart enough to set out a list of definitions, and I'm not sure it can be done very easily by anyone. I put in a post earlier in the thread about the breadth of meaning in 'saved'. 'Saved' in the Bible is not always linked to eternal salvation.

For example in Matthew 14:30 Peter cries out 'Lord, save me!' while he is sinking beneath the waves. He's asking for salvation from drowning, not for the salvation of his soul.

We have built up doctrines around many important biblical words - such as the doctrine of justification by faith. But we need to be careful that - as far as possible - we don't read the Bible only in the colours of the special doctrines that have been developed to interpret it.

It's good to have a doctrine of salvation - but we must recognise that not every time the Bible has the word 'salvation' or 'saved'.

I'm not writing this very clearly. I'll come back to it later.

 

[amadeus2]

@B-A-C
Yes, God judges whether it is past, present or future tense... or some combination thereof. When did He judge? When He spoke the Word. When was that? Time means something to you and to me, but what does it mean to God?


Having worked for the US Social Security Administration until my retirement in the year 2000 I made probably thousands of decisions for and against people. I discovered when my brain was burning up toward the end that my job, which I had always liked, stood squarely between and God. To make a long story short toward the end of my working years I backslid badly. I took an early retirement to save my burning brain, but primarily so as not to lose out with God.

Nothing is set in concrete unless God has so set it. He taught me a long time ago, that I do not know the difference between what I know and what I only believe. He does, and only sometimes does He let me know the difference. For the most part I like you and other believers mostly live by faith rather than by knowledge. The 30 to 40 thousand Christian denominations with many diametrically opposed doctrines is a good sign that some people are following beliefs rather known facts. Given time following the lead of the Holy Spirit, should not all sincere believers be unified with Jesus as the Head. If they do not is it not perhaps because too many them are too often quenching the Holy Spirit?


When I speak German to my wife who is a one language person, she may get a little upset with me until I interpret what I said into English. To most people who speak no German I will scarcely if ever use German, but they still will not understand as well as she did when I have my little tongues and interpretation conversations with her. The difference is that after nearly 45 years of marriage we know each other pretty well. Even another person who understood both languages wouldn’t really understand what we had said to each other as well as we did.


I see the Bible as a dead carcass while it stays of the shelf unread. It would be Jesus crucified, but never resurrected. The difference between that unread Bible and Word of God is the Holy Spirit quickening [bringing to Life] those written words, but that only occurs in a person. Anything not written on the person’s heart by God is like the unrefrigerated beefsteak left to rot. Even a Bible which is read is dead without the leading of the Holy Spirit in the reader.


We are to read the Bible like we eat that dead beefsteak. The beefsteak is digested and is brought to life again as a part of the carnal body. The Bible can be brought to Life in us by the working of the Holy Spirit in us. If the words read out of scripture are not quickened, do they not remain dead? When a person reads scripture for the wrong person with a closed mind and heart [like dyed in the wool atheist], how much of God’s truth is he likely to understand or retain?


“[God] Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.” II Cor 3:6


The Bible as you indicate has much that is easy for anyone to read and understand. It is only difficult when a person makes it so. Not everyone is open to what God has to say:


“Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled. ” Matt 5:6


Where does the hunger and thirst come from? Where does the natural hunger and thirst of our bodies come from? Can we do anything that will make us hungry and thirsty?


When you say you are taking the Bible at face value, just exactly what is it that you mean?


When we speak according to traditions or we use cliches why do we do that and what do we mean? Traditions can be good things as the Bible does say, but Jesus made it clear t

hat man-made traditions can cause some serious problems.


Saying to take it at “face value” can be like saying “use “common sense”. Face value or common sense to one man may be understood very differently by another. All you have

to do is compare what is considered common sense of one culture to the common sense of another.


Perhaps many of the Hebrews following Moses out Egypt were saying something like:

Isn’t it only good common sense to go back to Egypt and eat from the plenty that was always there at meal time rather than this walking ahead not knowing where the next good water hole is?

Without the Spirit of God, nothing can be understood plainly. Remember the confusion of languages at the tower of Babel!


God does speak to unbelievers, but even if they listen and understand they at best at a milk drinking stage. What is required before a person and chew and properly digest meat?

 

[B-A-C]

My friend, correct me if I'm getting the wrong impression here. It seems to me that you're looking at the Word in a purely legal sense.. It is most definitely a legal document but there is much more to it. Instruction manual, love letter etc... How are you looking at it? I mean besides a legal document

I think we need to separate Christians from non-Christians here.
Legal = law, etc... OK, I'm fine with that. In that case. Non-Christians are under the law.
Make no mistake, they will be judged by the law.

They are judged to be dead in sin, just like you and I were...They will go into the judgement if they do not get saved and will end up in hell. But God loves them.

God may love them (we could debate that also, but for the purpose of this thread it doesn't matter), but even if He does,
like you say... they will still end up in hell. Why? Because they are still under the law.

Keep in mind, this is ONLY for unbelievers/non-Christians. Christians aren't under the law, they are under grace.
(even grace has limits).

 

[B-A-C]

I'm not smart enough to set out a list of definitions, and I'm not sure it can be done very easily by anyone. I put in a post earlier in the thread about the breadth of meaning in 'saved'. 'Saved' in the Bible is not always linked to eternal salvation.

Admittedly, there are different contexts and meanings of certain words. I agree even saved can have different meanings.
But in the context of salvation of your soul, it should have a definition. If you don't know what salvation is...
how do you know if you're saved?

 

[Bendito]

I think we need to separate Christians from non-Christians here.
Legal = law, etc... OK, I'm fine with that. In that case. Non-Christians are under the law.
Make no mistake, they will be judged by the law.



God may love them (we could debate that also, but for the purpose of this thread it doesn't matter), but even if He does,
like you say... they will still end up in hell. Why? Because they are still under the law.

Keep in mind, this is ONLY for unbelievers/non-Christians. Christians aren't under the law, they are under grace.
(even grace has limits).

B-A-C The law has nothing to do with it...The law is to show us our need for a savior..Period. They will go to hell because they refuse the life that is offered to them...If you refuse life you accept death. The death of the grave and the death of hell. It's not at all complicated. In talking of law here you make it sound like God is sending them to hell, when in fact they choose hell.

 

[B-A-C]

B-A-C The law has nothing to do with it...The law is to show us our need for a savior..Period. They will go to hell because they refuse the life that is offered to them...If you refuse life you accept death. The death of the grave and the death of hell. It's not at all complicated. In talking of law here you make it sound like God is sending them to hell, when in fact they choose hell.

We'll just have to agree to disagree on this.
If we never sinned, we wouldn't need a savior.
I do agree with you on one thing here. God doesn't send them to hell.
It's their choice.

 

[B-A-C]

B-A-C The law has nothing to do with it...The law is to show us our need for a savior..Period.

After thinking about this some. I sort of agree with this. Without the law there would be no sin.
The law is what defines sin. Even Paul says the law is good. So if there was no law, we wouldn't need a savior.

I disagree with the statement "we are born dead". I would say we are born into sinful nature.
If we are born spiritually dead, then babies can't go to heaven (I almost hate to bring that up, it's easy to get sidetracked )

Now we have a bit of a conundrum here.
How does God judge people? What does he use as the base line?
It's same in this world. Judges use the law to judge people. If there was no law, there would be no basis to judge on.
The biblical law is what defines morality. (good and evil)

How do we repent without the law. How do we know what righteousness is without the law?
How do we know what sin is without the law.

For unbelievers.. it's ALL about the law.

I use the word unbelievers loosely here. For example....

Can a person who believes in Jesus who also is child-molester, sex trafficker, murderer (I'm not talking about their past)
I'm talking about a person who is currently willfully choosing to do this, everyday and probably even in the days to come.
Are they saved? If not, what are you basing that on?

 

[Bendito]

So I'm going to ask, right here, Where does the bible say we have a sinful nature...I see where the bible says we listen to the flesh or we listen to the spirit and they both are contending for our attentions. I see where we were considered dead in sin...Born of the flesh but needing to be born of the spirit, but no sinful nature... I see where we were given the law to show us our need for a savior...and if we had not sinned we would not need a savior. So where, WHERE does it say we have a sinful nature?

 

[B-A-C]

Rom 5:12; Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Rom 5:13; for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

... death through sin.... We aren't born unto death. We are born unto sin, and because of that, death spreads to all men.. because we sin.

Psa 51:5; Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

He wasn't conceived in death. He was conceived in sin.

Eccl 7:20; Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

If we didn't have a sinful nature. We wouldn't sin.

Rom 7:20; But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Why does sin dwell within him? Because it dwells within us all from birth.

Eph 2:1; And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Notice the wording here. We don't sin because we're dead. We're dead because we sin!

Gal 4:4; But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
Gal 4:5; so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

He redeems those under the law. If they weren't under the law, He wouldn't need to redeem them.

Isa 59:2; But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God,
And your sins have hidden His face from you so that He does not hear.

We aren't separated from God because we're born. We're separated from God because we sin.

 

[Bendito]

Rom 5:12; Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned—
Rom 5:13; for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

... death through sin.... We aren't born unto death. We are born unto sin, and because of that, death spreads to all men.. because we sin.

Psa 51:5; Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, And in sin my mother conceived me.

He wasn't conceived in death. He was conceived in sin.

Eccl 7:20; Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.

If we didn't have a sinful nature. We wouldn't sin.

Rom 7:20; But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Why does sin dwell within him? Because it dwells within us all from birth.

Eph 2:1; And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,

Notice the wording here. We don't sin because we're dead. We're dead because we sin!

Gal 4:4; But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law,
Gal 4:5; so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

He redeems those under the law. If they weren't under the law, He wouldn't need to redeem them.

If we didn't have a sinful nature we would still be deciding which to follow, the flesh or the spirit. It is human nature to follow the easiest route. Is it not? and yes. You are right...Death entered because of sin..Sinful nature did not enter in....