• Welcome to Talk Jesus

    A true bible based, Jesus centered online community. Join over 11,000 members today

    Register Log In

Christian-ese

Users who viewed this discussion (Total:0)

Loyal
I'm doing a study on certain Christian words.
You hear them all the time in the church. Yet it seems no one knows what they mean.
Even if you look these words up on the internet at so called "Christian" websites you will get a dozen different answers. These words are in the Bible.

redeemed
redemption
saved
salvation
sanctified
sanctification
justified
justification
disciple
follower
believer

even terms like eternal life and resurrection have surprisingly different meanings to some Christians.

So what do they mean to you?

... to be continued ...
 
Loyal
redeemed (exagorazo)-
Strongs, to pay a ransom, to rescue from loss
Thayers, payment of a price to recover, to pay off, to buy up for ones use.

sanctification (hagiasmos) -
Strongs - purification, purity, holiness,
Thayers - purification, being purified, consecration. ( what is consecration?)

Justified (dikaioo) -
Strongs - to show regard as just or innocent, to be righteous (what is righteousness?)
Thayers - to be as righteous as you ought to be, to show exhibit , evince or act righteously, vindicated, freed.

There is a lot more here... but I am amazed at how far some churches, Christians, and "Christian" websites have strayed from this.
 
Loyal
@B-A-C

What they must mean is what the Master tells us that they mean:

Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Joh_10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

How well do we see Him? How well do we hear Him?
 
Loyal
This isn't about God veiling eyes, or Jesus speaking in parables. It doesn't even have to be theology.
It's just definitions of words.

We are to study show ourselves approved. ( 2 Tim 2:15; )
The Bereans in Acts 17; are called "more noble" because they studied the Bible to "see if these things were true".
If we have the Holy Spirit (teacher, Spirit of Truth) in us. Then nothing in the Word of God is hidden from us.

All that has very little to do with what..
born again.. mean?
how are we spiritually "renewed"? (can we be "re"-newed, if haven't already become "new"?)
What does redeemed mean?

Instead of avoiding the answers as some kind of "God veiled mystery"... we are required to know the answer.
If you don't know what it is... how do you know it applies to you?

That's the trouble with the church today. They don't know why Jesus even came. What He died for, or how it affects them.
 
Loyal
This isn't about God veiling eyes, or Jesus speaking in parables. It doesn't even have to be theology.
It's just definitions of words.

We are to study show ourselves approved. ( 2 Tim 2:15; )
The Bereans in Acts 17; are called "more noble" because they studied the Bible to "see if these things were true".
If we have the Holy Spirit (teacher, Spirit of Truth) in us. Then nothing in the Word of God is hidden from us.

All that has very little to do with what..
born again.. mean?
how are we spiritually "renewed"? (can we be "re"-newed, if haven't already become "new"?)
What does redeemed mean?

Instead of avoiding the answers as some kind of "God veiled mystery"... we are required to know the answer.
If you don't know what it is... how do you know it applies to you?

That's the trouble with the church today. They don't know why Jesus even came. What He died for, or how it affects them.
Would it be side tracking to say..."Ok Why did Jesus come?" ? Then I look at the word 'Salvation' I love that word. As in "Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling" Hey! I thought Jesus gave me salvation. Now I have to work our my salvation? LOL I know I know.....But I do hear that queston. So we work out what? From what?
 
Loyal
I don't mean to derail your thread, dear friend. I will answer this one post. If you @B-A-C
desire further discussion we should do it on another thread.

This isn't about God veiling eyes, or Jesus speaking in parables. It doesn't even have to be theology.
It's just definitions of words.
No argument with your purpose ... or God's. I am also a Bible student, but some things cannot be learned by the intellect of man alone.

We are to study show ourselves approved. ( 2 Tim 2:15; )
Yes, indeed, but that verse, I believe, is calling for obedience, that is to study because God told us to do so, rather
than to study to learn. Learning is explained more clearly, I believe, here:

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

What has Jesus said to us that the Holy Ghost will bring to our remembrance?

The Bereans in Acts 17; are called "more noble" because they studied the Bible to "see if these things were true".
If we have the Holy Spirit (teacher, Spirit of Truth) in us. Then nothing in the Word of God is hidden from us.
Nothing is hidden from us that we need to know, if... we do not quench the Spirit. God decides what is needed and we choose to quench or not to quench.

All that has very little to do with what..
born again.. mean?
how are we spiritually "renewed"? (can we be "re"-newed, if haven't already become "new"?)
What does redeemed mean?
The Gate has been opened that was closed with the sin of Adam and Eve, but what does it take to enter in and partake of the Tree of Life? It would seem that a person would to have on the proper garment:

Mat 22:12 And he saith unto him, Friend, how camest thou in hither not having a wedding garment? And he was speechless.
Mat 22:13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast him into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

And the proper garments would be?

Eph 6:14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
Eph 6:15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
Eph 6:16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

Instead of avoiding the answers as some kind of "God veiled mystery"... we are required to know the answer.
If you don't know what it is... how do you know it applies to you?
Perhaps because we are hearing His voice:

Joh 10:3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.
Joh 10:4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

That's the trouble with the church today. They don't know why Jesus even came. What He died for, or how it affects them.
So then teach them as the Holy Ghost in you gives your direction and words. As it happens some people would not act properly if someone arose from the dead to tell them how... This doesn't mean that we stop. It means that we continue to obey even when we don't see the purpose. Why did Jonah get upset when the people of Nineveh repented? What did he not understand? What do we not understand?
 
Active
If you are called to be a teacher then teach.
If you dont know then learn, there is no use complaining about it. If you in church and you see someone needs edification then Be patient and teach them.

Sometimes people need to study things over and over before they grasp something. Be a berean and search scriptures daily to see if things are so. If you dont know something ask God for wisdom and He will give it to you liberally.

Sometimes bible dictionaries can help, but a lot of the time, if you reading scripture everyday God will teach you the more you read.
 
Loyal
The Holy Spirit does teach, but primarily by "bringing to remembrance that which you've already heard". ( John 14:25; )
Where did you hear this? Primarily by reading the Bible.

Salvation - yes we are being "saved". This is where the word salvation comes from.
Saved from what? A number of things.
1. Saved from hell, the lake of fire, eternal damnation. (the consequences of sin)
2. Saved from the power of sin having control over us.
3. Saved from ruining both our lives and the lives of others through our sinful ways and decisions.

Eternal life is just what it says it is. Everyone lives forever in a manner of speaking. Even sinners live forever.
Our soul/spirit goes on living even after the body dies. Some people believe Christians go straight on heaven when they die,
others believe in someone called "soul sleep". Regardless of which happens, you end up in heaven either way.
Unbelievers go to hell. They don't cease to exist. They just go to hades for a while.

Eventually comes the judgment. We are all judged. Some churches teach believers aren't judged. But that isn't what the Bible says.
Unbelievers are already judged. But they aren't sentenced yet. After the judgment, these people are thrown into the Lake of Fire.
Anyone who's name isn't written in the book of Life goes into the fire. Forever.

Its the same with believers. We live "eternally". Our current physical body dies, but we get new bodies and our soul/spirit lives forever.

.. to be continued ...
 
Active
The Greek word, 'sozo', which is translated 'saved' has a broader meaning. It also can be 'healed' or 'made whole'.

Knowing this can help a deeper understanding of many of the healing stories in the gospels.

Luke 8.48 can be rendered 'daughter your faith has healed you' or 'daughter your faith has saved you'.
 
Loyal
I do not believe that sinners live forever. Life, real Life, comes from God alone by means of Jesus. Death (or condemnation) is where everyone is until they have received the Life that Jesus is. When our flesh has reached the end of its course, that which is Life will remain. If there is no Life in us then there is no continuance.

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:18
 
Loyal
I do not believe that sinners live forever. Life, real Life, comes from God alone
In a way I agree with you. Even the Bible words this differently. Eternal life vs eternal death.
I would hardly call being in hell or the lake of fire "life". The Bible calls this the 2nd death. ( Rev 2:11; Rev 20:6; Rev 20:14; Rev 21:8; )

I know some Christians don't believe sinners are punished eternally. But this isn't what the Bible says.
Matt 13:42; Matt 13:50;
Matt 18:8; even says it's better to cut off a hand or a foot than to go into the ETERNAL fire. (it doesn't just burn for a few minutes). see Mark 9:43;
Matt 25:41; is similar. This fire was originally intended for satan and his angels, but humans will go there.
Mark 9:44-48; says their spirit does not die, and the fire is not quenched! Their agony is forever.
Luke 3:9; Luke 3:17; John 15:6; etc...
Rev 14:11; says the smoke of their torment.. goes up FOREVER and EVER....
Rev 20:10; says those who follow the beast, the false prophets, the beast himself, and Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire
where they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and EVER.

This is why I believe the beast is an actual human, rather than some abstract ideology of a form of government.
You can't throw an idea into the lake of fire.

Also in the story of Lazarus (which is not identified as a parable). The rich man says he is in agony in the flames ( Luke 16:24; )
Finally we have all the verses about the wrath of God. ( Matt 3:7; Luke 3:7; John 3:36; Rom 2:5; Rom 9:22; Rom 12:19; Eph 5:6; Jude 1:7;
Col 3:6; 1 Thess 2:16; Rev 6:17; etc... )
What is the difference between discipline and wrath? One changes you. Tries to correct you. The other is simply eternal torment.

If there is no consequence of sin. Then why get saved?
I think just about everyone would be OK with just dying. But that isn't what the Bible says. They will be punished.
The punishment is eternal.
 
Loyal
In a way I agree with you. Even the Bible words this differently. Eternal life vs eternal death.
I would hardly call being in hell or the lake of fire "life". The Bible calls this the 2nd death. ( Rev 2:11; Rev 20:6; Rev 20:14; Rev 21:8; )
I believe that really the "second death" occurs when a person who has gained Life from Jesus backs completely and finally away from that Life. This would be the reprobate who can never again find a place of repentance and forgiveness. Anyone has never really been "born again" cannot die again for they are already dead.

I know some Christians don't believe sinners are punished eternally. But this isn't what the Bible says.
Matt 13:42; Matt 13:50;
Matt 18:8; even says it's better to cut off a hand or a foot than to go into the ETERNAL fire. (it doesn't just burn for a few minutes). see Mark 9:43;
Matt 25:41; is similar. This fire was originally intended for satan and his angels, but humans will go there.
Mark 9:44-48; says their spirit does not die, and the fire is not quenched! Their agony is forever.
Luke 3:9; Luke 3:17; John 15:6; etc...
Rev 14:11; says the smoke of their torment.. goes up FOREVER and EVER....
Rev 20:10; says those who follow the beast, the false prophets, the beast himself, and Satan will be thrown into the lake of fire
where they will be TORMENTED day and night FOREVER and EVER.
I won't go precisely into what I believe on this point as it might be confusing and would for the most part probably edify no one. The important thing to understand, I believe, is that salvation [obtaining real Life] is necessary if a person is ever going to please God. A person who remains in sin and makes no serious effort to change that will of course NOT be saved in the end of the matter.

This is why I believe the beast is an actual human, rather than some abstract ideology of a form of government.
You can't throw an idea into the lake of fire.

Also in the story of Lazarus (which is not identified as a parable). The rich man says he is in agony in the flames ( Luke 16:24; )
Finally we have all the verses about the wrath of God. ( Matt 3:7; Luke 3:7; John 3:36; Rom 2:5; Rom 9:22; Rom 12:19; Eph 5:6;
Col 3:6; 1 Thess 2:16; Rev 6:17; etc... )
What is the difference between discipline and wrath? One changes you. Tries to correct you. The other is simply eternal torment.
Just one point here to clarify my stand with regard to the story of Lazarus: [Luke 16:19-31]

Mat 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:
Mat 13:35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

If the Bible is the Word of God, what part of it was NOT spoken to man? What part of is NOT a parable to those without "eyes to see" and "ears to hear"?

How good is our hearing? How good is our vision?

If there is no consequence of sin. Then why get saved?
I think just about everyone would be OK with just dying. But that isn't what the Bible says. They will be punished.
The punishment is eternal.
The consequence of sin is TO NOT be with God EVER. We should not be seeking salvation only to gain eternal life. We should not be seeking salvation only to obtain all of the good things God has promised.

We should be seeking rather to please God because we love Him as He has always loved us. That He will reward us because we please Him should always be a very SECONDARY consideration.
 
Active
I think sometimes believers believe different things because they read different bible versions?

Not all Bibles are the same Ive found thats why I just stick with one Bible, if I'm reading another version I always go back to the one version I read first if I find it seems slightly different.
 
Loyal
The consequence of sin is TO NOT be with God EVER
Most of the world is OK, with not being with God... ever. They don't consider this punishment. They consider it freedom.

What part of is NOT a parable to those without "eyes to see" and "ears to hear"?
We could debate whether Lazarus was a parable or not, but for the purpose of this thread it doesn't matter. In any case, the rich man was
in torment in the flames. (Parable or not)

I believe that really the "second death" occurs when a person who has gained Life from Jesus backs completely and finally away from that Life. This would be the reprobate who can never again find a place of repentance and forgiveness. Anyone has never really been "born again" cannot die again for they are already dead.
And yet, several verses describe exactly what the second death is. (the Lake of fire). The second death cannot happen until the first
death has already happened (the physical death of the body). There will be an exception to this rule for those who are raptured.
(I suppose it's possible, they will "die" on the way up, but again, that's beyond the scope of this discussion).

We all have physical life. It is a short temporary life with pain, sorrow, suffering, and things of this world.
and we all have a physical death. This happens whether we know Jesus or not.

But not everyone is alive spiritually. Not everyone is born-again. Not everyone has eternal life in the sense
that we have fellowship with God/Jesus other believers, and will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.
Not just membership of being in His family. But an actual place where we will live forever and ever.
Eternal mean... well... eternal. (everlasting, non-ending, forever, etc.. )
The greek word here is aionios. - without end, never to cease.

Anyone has never really been "born again" cannot die again for they are already dead.
and yet they are everywhere, all over the world, eating, sleeping, walking around... not knowing they are spiritually dead.
This is because they are physically alive. They haven't died yet.

Even Christians, when they die to the old self... are still physically alive. And we will still physically die.
But we don't die spiritually (not to say we can't lose our salvation - which I agree with you on). But the point here
is, true believers are spiritually alive.

Even unbelievers have a soul/spirit that remains after they (physically) die. If there was no essence of their being
how could they be judged? I assume they will have bodies of some sort. Every knee will bow and tongue will confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord. Hard to bow your knee if you don't have a body.

The consequence of sin is TO NOT be with God EVER.
That is "a" consequence. But the world is already without God, and they are OK with that.
The consequence of sin... is the lake of fire. We will see how OK they are with that when the day comes.
 
Loyal
2 Timothy 2:15Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)
15 Do all you can to present yourself to God as someone worthy of his approval, as a worker with no need to be ashamed, because he deals straightforwardly with the Word of the Truth.
I think sometimes believers believe different things because they read different bible versions?

Not all Bibles are the same Ive found thats why I just stick with one Bible, if I'm reading another version I always go back to the one version I read first if I find it seems slightly different.
Now that's a sensible conclusion! Rarely seen.
 
Loyal
Most of the world is OK, with not being with God... ever. They don't consider this punishment. They consider it freedom.
Yes, but while I agree it is ultimately what God thinks that matters, is it not? Unfortunately, there are believers who haven't learned that the rewards which await us, the extras, are not the most important thing. Hey, I have not overcome it all yet as did Jesus, so what room have I to talk at all in this regard?

We could debate whether Lazarus was a parable or not, but for the purpose of this thread it doesn't matter. In any case, the rich man was in torment in the flames. (Parable or not)
In sense as you say it doesn't matter. I will leave it there.

And yet, several verses describe exactly what the second death is. (the Lake of fire). The second death cannot happen until the first
death has already happened (the physical death of the body). There will be an exception to this rule for those who are raptured.
(I suppose it's possible, they will "die" on the way up, but again, that's beyond the scope of this discussion).
All of these details can be described or explained more than one way and so it is with believers. I work hard not to pursue the logical answer for according to different believers there seems to be different logical answers. The only answer I need is the one that matters to God in my case. I know that I have been wrong before so until all of the darkness is removed how can I be certain on each point. God will lead us through the darkness if we are paying attention, will He not?

We all have physical life. It is a short temporary life with pain, sorrow, suffering, and things of this world.
and we all have a physical death. This happens whether we know Jesus or not.
But what if physical death is really not important except as being the end of our course? We should be ready by then.

But not everyone is alive spiritually. Not everyone is born-again. Not everyone has eternal life in the sense
that we have fellowship with God/Jesus other believers, and will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.
Not just membership of being in His family.
Yes and...

But an actual place where we will live forever and ever.
"An actual place"? What if there is only one and that is where God is? What if this physical which men describe as being the world or the universe is only an allusion. When it allusion is gone all that will remain will the reality which is the Kingdom of God for which people must have "eyes to see" and "ear to hear" therein...

"Where there is no vision, the people perish..." Prov 29:18

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known. " I Cor 13:12

Eternal mean... well... eternal. (everlasting, non-ending, forever, etc.. )
The greek word here is aionios. - without end, never to cease.

and yet they are everywhere, all over the world, eating, sleeping, walking around... not knowing they are spiritually dead.
This is because they are physically alive. They haven't died yet.
They were born dead and without Jesus remain so.

Even Christians, when they die to the old self... are still physically alive. And we will still physically die.
But we don't die spiritually (not to say we can't lose our salvation - which I agree with you on). But the point here
is, true believers are spiritually alive.

Even unbelievers have a soul/spirit that remains after they (physically) die. If there was no essence of their being
how could they be judged? I assume they will have bodies of some sort. Every knee will bow and tongue will confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord. Hard to bow your knee if you don't have a body.
People, including believers, and including you and me, have altogether too many preconceived notions which remain from old connections with the Catholic Church as well as paganism which blur their vision. We need to start every day with God in the very lowest room and allow Him to elevate us as He sees fit. [Luke 14:8-11]

That is "a" consequence. But the world is already without God, and they are OK with that.
The consequence of sin... is the lake of fire. We will see how OK they are with that when the day comes.
The consequence of sin is death.. but if they are already dead, what more judgment is required?
 
Loyal
There is so much un-biblical theology here, it's hard to even know where to start.
First of all, we aren't sinner because we don't know God. We're sinner because we sin.
The wages of sin... SIN.. is death. Sin is why we die. ( Rom 6:23; )

Second, there is a difference between being judged, and "the" judgment. Unbelievers are already judged even now.
John 3:18; "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But even these people have to eventually face "the" judgment. Which comes AFTER they die.
Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

Even Christians will be judged.
1 Pet 4:17; For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Make no mistake the ungodly will be judged, and face the fire.
2 Pet 3:7; But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

The dead (and resurrected) are judged.
Rev 20:12; And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

They aren't judged because they say they know God, or don't know God. They are judged by their deeds. ( John 5:29; )

Those who are in the book of life... live eternally. Everlasting, non-ceasing, never ending, forever. ( Rev 21:27; )
Those who aren't. Get the fire. ( Rev 20:15; )

The wrath of God isn't simply not knowing God. The wrath of God comes from rejecting His only Son who gave Himself as a sacrifice
for your sins and mine, (our SINS) the SINS of the whole world (anyone who believes in Him and obeys Him)

Matt 7:19; "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matt 13:40; "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

He gather people "from out of His kingdom" (those who commit lawlessness) and throw them into the fire.

Mark 9:43; "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

There are literally dozens of verses like this.

John 15:6; "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

What further judgment is needed? They haven't even begun to be judged yet.

You reject my only begotten Son who died for you?
You refuse to believe in your creator?
You refuse to obey the things He told you to do?
You've caused my children pain and suffering, and even led some of them down the path of destruction?

Heb 10:30; For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
 
Loyal
@B-A-C
There is so much un-biblical theology here, it's hard to even know where to start.
First of all, we aren't sinner because we don't know God. We're sinner because we sin.
The wages of sin... SIN.. is death. Sin is why we die. ( Rom 6:23; )
Sin is why we are already dead. Adam and Eve died on the day they disobeyed God eating of the forbidden fruit, Can something that is already dead give Life to a new creature? We were all born dead because our parents were dead, To obtain Life and to retain it must come from and encounter with Jesus who is Life. The death of the flesh in the end of the matter, doesn’t really matter, does it? We are stewards of that body of flesh like we are stewards of all that God gave us to use... but becoming an heir and a joint-heir with our Lord is something else, isn’t it?


Second, there is a difference between being judged, and "the" judgment. Unbelievers are already judged even now.
John 3:18; "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

But even these people have to eventually face "the" judgment. Which comes AFTER they die.
Heb 9:27; And inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once and after this comes judgment,

You believe you already understand what those written words mean, but I do not. I disagree with you only to the extent that I do not embrace all that you have said. What I need to know is what I desire to know which is whatever God wants me to know.

Do I need to know that those who have never had Life [the Life which Jesus is] will be judged again? Usually I would say their final end is not actually my business as the final judgment of them does not come from me. You say the final judgment of them is yet to occur, but I wonder, what needs to be judged in a person is already dead and has always been dead?

“For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.” Ecc 9:4

Does that verse speak of the death of the body of flesh or does it speak of the death of the new inner man? Or does it speak of both? I have an opinion, but apparently it is different than yours, but is the correct answer something we really need to have... or is just something we would like to have to satsify our curiosity or to win arguments?

Even Christians will be judged.
1 Pet 4:17; For it is time for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us first, what will be the outcome for those who do not obey the gospel of God?

Make no mistake the ungodly will be judged, and face the fire.
2 Pet 3:7; But by His word the present heavens and earth are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men.
Perhaps this does not refer to men who already dead although still walking around, but rather to those have been believers but quenched the Spirit of God in themselves too many times. They were believers but in quenching the Spirit they made themselves very ungodly, did they not?

John 5:28; "Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice,
John 5:29; and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.
Same answer.

The dead (and resurrected) are judged.
Rev 20:12; And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds.

They aren't judged because they say they know God, or don't know God. They are judged by their deeds. ( John 5:29; )

Those who have never known Life have already been judged by their failure to take hold of the mercy which God provided as a Way to Tree of Life which had been closed since the day of our first carnal parents in the Garden of Eden.


Should they be judged again? Why? If you were to say you don’t understand, well that would go for me as well. So why should I draw conclusions about something which I do not need to know? God knows better than I do just what I need to know.

Those who are in the book of life... live eternally. Everlasting, non-ceasing, never ending, forever. ( Rev 21:27; )
Those who aren't. Get the fire. ( Rev 20:15; )

Consider the three Hebrews thrown into the fiery furnace at the command of Nebuchadnezzar. They were unscathed by the fire while the kings strongest soldiers died when they just approached it. And what exactly is that fire a type or shadow of?


“For our God is a consuming fire.” Heb 12:29


The three Hebrews were prepared and properly attired, but the soldiers were not. It was the same fire. Was it not the same fire mentioned here?


“So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.” Gen 3:24


The wrath of God isn't simply not knowing God. The wrath of God comes from rejecting His only Son who gave Himself as a sacrifice for your sins and mine, (our SINS) the SINS of the whole world (anyone who believes in Him and obeys Him)

You know apparently that you have not rejected Him and I know that I have not rejected Him. Why do you presume to know what His wrath is for those who have?

Matt 7:19; "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.

Matt 13:40; "So just as the tares are gathered up and burned with fire, so shall it be at the end of the age.
Matt 13:41; "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness,
Matt 13:42; and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

He gather people "from out of His kingdom" (those who commit lawlessness) and throw them into the fire.

Mark 9:43; "If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off; it is better for you to enter life crippled, than, having your two hands, to go into hell, into the unquenchable fire,

There are literally dozens of verses like this.

But if God is the “consuming fire”, what does it mean? Do we want to be thrown into the fire to be supported or joined there with one “like the Son of God”?


John 15:6; "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Heb 10:26; For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27; but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.

Rev 20:10; And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Rev 20:14; Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15; And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

I won’t add anything here as you reject my belief even though it really is based on scripture although you apparently are not interested in hearing more from me on it. Is this because it is not what most Christians believe? Who is the judge in the end of the matter? Certainly not me...


What further judgment is needed? They haven't even begun to be judged yet.

You reject my only begotten Son who died for you?
You refuse to believe in your creator?
You refuse to obey the things He told you to do?
You've caused my children pain and suffering, and even led some of them down the path of destruction?
If you are speaking to me first person to second person with the above words then I guess the conversation is over because your judgment is seeming held up as being better than mine. If I am wrong, I won’t contest it, but let God be the judge. You seem to have decided against me without understanding my heart. God understands every heart. Which ones do we understand?


Heb 10:30; For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
Heb 10:31; It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I am sorry that you do not really wish to discuss our differences. I know that I fall short of God’s glory too often, but I believe it is necessary for each believer to grow closer to God throughout his course here. Part of growing, I believe, is finding a willingness in oneself to let go of anything God has shown to be wrong ... which we have believed to be right. If we already believe that all of our beliefs are right without admitting the possibility of error, where is the room for a favorable change?

I believe that the following words penned by Solomon as inspired by God still apply in a measure to all believers [unless they have already overcome the world as did Jesus] as well as to unbelievers today:

“Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth the hearts.: Prov 21:2

If this is not changed in us, how different are we from unbelievers? Is the growth toward God in the changing? But we do not accept the possibility of our error, how can we grow?
 
Administrator
Staff Member
redeemed = saved
redemption = the act (on Jesus' part) of saving us
saved = self explanatory, but in detail...saved from eternal hell due to our sinful nature
salvation = same as above
sanctified = process of being purified and becoming holy like Jesus Christ, our only true sinless example
sanctification = same as above, a life long process (proving God's kindness and patience even though he knew all our sins from eternity past)
justified = by the blood of Jesus, His atonement on the Cross, we're made righteous again in God's sight
justification = same as above, a process
disciple = follower of Christ
follower = same as above
believer = he who believes Jesus Christ is the only way for salvation, hope, redemption and way to God Almighty
 
Active
redeemed = saved
redemption = the act (on Jesus' part) of saving us
saved = self explanatory, but in detail...saved from eternal hell due to our sinful nature
salvation = same as above
sanctified = process of being purified an becoming holy like Jesus Christ, our only true sinless example
sanctification = same as above, a life long process (proving God's kindness and patience even though he knew all our sins from eternity past)
justified = by the blood of Jesus, His atonement on the Cross, we're made righteous against in God's sight
justification = same as above, a process
disciple = follower of Christ
follower = same as above
believer = he who believes Jesus Christ is the only way for salvation, hope, redemption and way to God Almighty
Are you putting these definitions forward as a description of what you mean by each of the words, or as a description of what the Bible authors and first readers meant?
 

Similar threads


Top