Catholicism Informed or Not?

[KingJ]

There have been many other threads here on TJ about the false teachings of the RC church, but yet...

I think some RC's will be saved. Not because they are Roman Catholics, but rather in spite of them being Roman Catholics.

Catholics don't believe they are saved just because they are Catholics.

We all need to consider Luke 9:50.

I wish the only issues between denominations were menial matters like confessions booths, holy water, elevation of a priest, servitude of nuns, purgatory or appointment of a pope. There are real issues for us to discuss / get upset over. Like GLBT, universalism and whatever other new age nonsense there is. These things are removing Jesus from the church. Soon God will stop attending church.

 

[B-A-C]

I wish the only issues between denominations were menial matters like confessions booths, holy water, elevation of a priest, servitude of nuns, purgatory or appointment of a pope. There are real issues for us to discuss / get upset over. Like GLBT, universalism and whatever other new age nonsense there is. These things are removing Jesus from the church. Soon God will stop attending church.

The RC church practices as a whole remove Jesus/God from the church.

The Pope is the head of the church... instead of Jesus.
Mary is the mediatrix.... instead of Jesus.
Confession is to a priest... instead of Jesus.
Most RC church are named after Mary... instead of Jesus.
The priest is our vicar (substitute)... instead of Jesus.
RC's pray to Mary (and others).... instead of Jesus. Some say they pray to Jesus as well, but praying through anyone but Jesus is wrong.
Some RC's go to the church for forgiveness of sins... instead of Jesus.
They pay penances, and indulgences to the church... instead of Jesus.
The "immaculate conception" is the birth of Mary... instead of Jesus.
Priests in the church are their spiritual "fathers" instead of God.
Priests in the church are their actual priests who sacrifice Jesus during "Mass" ...instead of Jesus being OUR high priest.

There is a lot more that could be said here... but these are the reasons God stops attending churches.

Yes, homosexuality, adultery, fornication, immorality, some of these things are in almost every church to a degree.
Only God can forgive these things and change our lives.... that's true. But the thing is...
In order for God to fix these things... we need to come to Him. Not priests, nuns, bishops, vicars, the Pope, Mary ... instead of Jesus.

Catholics don't believe they are saved just because they are Catholics.

You obviously don't know the same RCs I do. Anyone baptized into the Catholic church who remains in the churches grace is saved.
Anyone who is not an RC, who has never been baptized into the RC church... is not saved. Because of this, I have some RC friends
praying for me.. "to get saved". Including two priests.

 

[KingJ]

The RC church practices as a whole remove Jesus/God from the church.

1. The Pope is the head of the church... instead of Jesus.
2. Mary is the mediatrix.... instead of Jesus.
3. Confession is to a priest... instead of Jesus.
4. Most RC church are named after Mary... instead of Jesus.
5. The priest is our vicar (substitute)... instead of Jesus.
6. RC's pray to Mary (and others).... instead of Jesus. Some say they pray to Jesus as well, but praying through anyone but Jesus is wrong.
7. Some RC's go to the church for forgiveness of sins... instead of Jesus.
8. They pay penances, and indulgences to the church... instead of Jesus.
9. The "immaculate conception" is the birth of Mary... instead of Jesus.
10. Priests in the church are their spiritual "fathers" instead of God.
11. Priests in the church are their actual priests who sacrifice Jesus during "Mass" ...instead of Jesus being OUR high priest.

There is a lot more that could be said here... but these are the reasons God stops attending churches.

12. Yes, homosexuality, adultery, fornication, immorality, some of these things are in almost every church to a degree.
Only God can forgive these things and change our lives.... that's true. But the thing is...
In order for God to fix these things... we need to come to Him. Not priests, nuns, bishops, vicars, the Pope, Mary ... instead of Jesus.

13. You obviously don't know the same RCs I do. Anyone baptized into the Catholic church who remains in the churches grace is saved.
Anyone who is not an RC, who has never been baptized into the RC church... is not saved. Because of this, I have some RC friends
praying for me.. "to get saved". Including two priests.

1. The intention is not to replace Jesus or be above Him. Merely to continue Peter's post.
2. This all originated out of confusion. Pray to Mary who will mediate to Jesus who would mediate to God. Not Mary to God.
3. The bible says confess your sins to one another, who better then a qualified priest?
4. Yes and many have relics to draw you to a particular place. But in the meetings you will not hear of Mary > Jesus or idolatry being fine. There is a lot more to be said on this. I will just say its not from evil intent. Every church has a cross in front of the church for a reason.
5. I don't see this as a big issue. Not a big difference to pastors being accountable for their flock. What am I missing?
6. The intention is not to bypass Jesus. Saints are supposed to plead to Jesus. I will not deny that there is a serious communication issue in the RCC. We should all pray to Jesus.
7. and at church they are taught about Jesus. How His death enables forgiveness of sins.
8. Firstly, don't say '''pay''. Financial gain from penance is a myth. Penance and indulgences are repentance and acting on this. There is an element to it of reconciliation with the church. 1 Cor 5 does say that certain ''Christians'' should be removed from church. But primarily for reconciliation with God. So, kind of clear anti Calvinist teaching.
9. Immaculate conception of Mary is believed as Jesus was immaculate. If Mary was corrupted, Jesus would be corrupted. They are just trying to ensure all grasp Jesus was perfectly conceived (IE Batting for Jesus). This belief is understandable. Wrong, but motive understandable. lets be crystal clear that there is no evil intent.
10. No. God the Father, is Catholicism 101.
11. Care to better explain. I am not with you. They believe they are re-sacrificing Jesus?
12. Priests, nuns, bishops, saints and Mary are all there to help us come to Jesus. Jesus is taught as being our Savior and Lord. That makes all our disagreements with them Luke 9:50 and Rom 14:5 issues.
13. Well this sounds a lot like those who believe you need to speak in tongues to be saved. There is truth to coming under the oversight of the church / this kind of humility being evidence of a changed heart / one wanting to serve God / hate what is evil Rom 12:9.

I changed my perception of Catholics when I fully grasped the lifelong decision a priest makes. Serve Jesus in full time ministry your whole life. Abstain from sex. Study study study. Their intentions are very good.

Yes there is lots of error and confusion. But no evil intents nor a history of accommodating mortal sins. Mortal sins in church is the real evil we need to all focus on. Good Catholics, Protestants and Jews can all agree on this.

 

[B-A-C]

1. The intention is not to replace Jesus or be above Him. Merely to continue Peter's post.

Except Peter had no "post" any different from any other disciple. In fact Peter was the disciple to the Jews, not to the Gentiles.
Gal 2:7; But on the contrary, seeing that I had been entrusted with the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised
Gal 2:8; (for He who effectually worked for Peter in his apostleship to the circumcised effectually worked for me also to the Gentiles),

We also know that Peter was married. ( Matt 8:14; Luke 4:38; ) so why should any one in the RC church remain celebate?
God's first command to mankind...
Gen 1:27; God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
Gen 1:28; God blessed them; and God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

2. This all originated out of confusion. Pray to Mary who will mediate to Jesus who would mediate to God. Not Mary to God.

Mary doesn't mediate to anyone. Again... why put another obstacle between and Jesus? Why not talk to Him directly?
1 Tim 1:5; For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

3. The bible says confess your sins to one another, who better then a qualified priest?

We are all qualified priests. That's why it says "one to another" instead of .."to a priest". Jesus is our high priest.
Who better than a priest? Jesus is a million times better, that's who. Only priests can talk to the high priest, and we can talk directly to Jesus.
Heb 4:14-4:15; Heb 5:1-10; Hen 6:20; Heb 7:26; Heb 8:1; Heb 9:11; Heb 9:25; etc...

When Jesus was crucified, the veil in the temple was torn "from top to bottom" signifying, there is no longer a barrier between us and God.
We can talk directly to God, no need to go through a priest.
Matt 27:51; And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split.

4. Yes and many have relics to draw you to a particular place. But in the meetings you will not hear of Mary > Jesus or idolatry being fine. There is a lot more to be said on this. I will just say its not from evil intent. Every church has a cross in front of the church for a reason.

And yet almost every RC church is named something like "Our Lady of..." or "Our Rose of.." and has a statue of Mary out front.
Never a statue of Jesus... (not that this would really be much better). And churches are rarely named "Catholic church of Christ the Redeemer" or
Catholic church of Jesus the King. Many RC's have statues of Mary in their yards. Never Jesus. Whether the "intention" of something is
evil or not doesn't make it any less evil. Thou shalt have no other gods... thou shall not bow down to any other gods.

10. No. God the Father, is Catholicism 101.

...and yet most call priests.. "father".. Father so and so...
Matt 23:9; Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
Matt 23:10; Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

... this is getting long winded, so I'll continue later.

 

[B-A-C]

8. Firstly, don't say '''pay''. Financial gain from penance is a myth. Penance and indulgences are repentance and acting on this. There is an element to it of reconciliation with the church. 1 Cor 5 does say that certain ''Christians'' should be removed from church. But primarily for reconciliation with God. So, kind of clear anti Calvinist teaching.

My RC friends insist, that by giving enough money.. $$$$ to the church for a specific sin.. you can be forgiven.

9. Immaculate conception of Mary is believed as Jesus was immaculate. If Mary was corrupted, Jesus would be corrupted. They are just trying to ensure all grasp Jesus was perfectly conceived (IE Batting for Jesus). This belief is understandable. Wrong, but motive understandable. lets be crystal clear that there is no evil intent.

Mary was of the bloodline all the way back to Adam... none of Jesus's ancestors ever sinned? Wow, that's news.
Jesus's blood doesn't have the power "un-corrupt" sin? Really? Mary had this power, but Jesus doesn't?
and Yet Mary herself sinned... She said she needed a savior. ( Luke 1:47; ) Jesus rebuked her for asking Him to do things
that weren't the Father's will. ( John 2:4; ) She also wasn't the best parent, having lost Jesus when He was 12.
Were all of Mary's brothers and sister immaculate as well? ( John 19:25; )
How about Jesus's brothers and sisters? Were they immaculate as well?
Matt 12:46-47; Matt 13:55; Mark 3:31-33; Mark 6:3; Luke 8:19-20; John 2:12; John 7:3-5; John 7:10; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor 9:5;
(even Cephas (Peter) and the Lord's other brothers who were apostles were married). Gal 1:19; Matt 10:3; Matt 27:56; Mark 3:18;
Mark 15:40; Luke 6:15; Luke 24:10; Jude 1:1; etc...
Now of course some RCs say these were Joseph's children from another previous marriage. Yet Luke 2:7; says Jesus was her FIRST born.
Luke 2:23; also James the less (who was the Lord's brother, who wrote the book of James) was the son of Alphaeus. So he wouldn't
have been the son of Mary through Joseph.
Also why did Mary need to offer a sacrifice of purification? Luke 2:24; see Lev 12:2 and Lev 12:6;

 

[B-A-C]

I would also question why a conception between two humans.. would be more immaculate than a conception
between God (the Holy Spirit) and a woman. In this case Anna and Joachim. (who aren't mentioned in the Bible anywhere).

Joseph's lineage is in Matt 1:1-16;
Mary's genealogy is in Luke 3:23-38; In Jewish custom of the time, women were not listed in genealogy unless the father died
or he had multiple wives, or the woman was an old testament matriarch of Jesus (i.e. Ruth). Hence Eli was Mary's father.
Not Joakim.

 

[B-A-C]

There are real issues for us to discuss / get upset over. Like GLBT,

The Pope Francis Statement That Changed the Church on LGBT Issues

It seems the Pope and RC church have made their decision on this.

 

[B-A-C]

Either this article is wrong (which is entirely possible).

Indulgence - Wikipedia

or else the church is the "minister of redemption".

The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes an indulgence as "a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints".

 

[Hekuran]

@B-A-C do you see anything good or in any way praiseworthy in the Roman Catholic Church?

 

[B-A-C]

@B-A-C do you see anything good or in any way praiseworthy in the Roman Catholic Church?

I stated earlier I thought some RC's would be saved.
But as a whole... no. Not much. A false church with with false doctrines leading many astray.
I know that sounds harsh and "unloving". But it's the truth nonetheless.

... and I haven't even gotten to the "bad" stuff yet.

 

[B-A-C]

Mass (liturgy) - Wikipedia

The priest enters, with a deacon, if there is one, and altar servers (who may act as crucifer, torch-bearers and thurifer). After making the sign of the cross and greeting the people liturgically, he begins the Act of Penitence. This concludes with the priest's prayer of absolution, "which, however, lacks the efficacy of the Sacrament of Penance".[20] The Kyrie, eleison (Lord, have mercy), is sung or said, followed by the Gloria in excelsis Deo (Glory to God in the highest), an ancient praise, if appropriate for the liturgical season. The Introductory Rites are brought to a close by the Collect Prayer.

Why do they need a crucifier? Priests in the old testament had two purposes. They went hand in hand.
Priests of the old testament sacrificed animals for sin. You confessed your sins to a priest, and then the priest determined
what sacrifice was needed for that particular sin. (big animals for big sins, small animals for small sins)
Also they inspected the sacrifice to see if it was free from defects, not blind or lame, or sick etc...

Roman Catholics believe in something called transubstantiation.

Transubstantiation - Wikipedia

They believe the bread actually becomes the physical body of Jesus, and the wine/juice actually becomes the physical blood of Jesus.
This has to be administered by a priest.

11. Care to better explain. I am not with you. They believe they are re-sacrificing Jesus?

If not.. then why does a priest have to do it. (A priests main function is sacrifice) and why does it physically have to become
the body and blood of Jesus? Rather than a symbol.. done in remembrance... ( 1 Cor 11:24-25; )
Mass is really re-crucifying Jesus.

Most Protestant churches have crosses, without Jesus still upon them.
Many RC churches have "crucifixes" with Jesus still upon the cross.

When will they quit crucifying Him so He can get off the cross?

 

[Hekuran]

May I suggest that you look for what is godly and honourable as well as what is corrupt and false.

 

[B-A-C]

May I suggest that you look for what is godly and honourable as well as what is corrupt and false.

Perhaps you are right here in a way.
It seems we are good at pointing out the 5% of bad things in good churches.
Maybe we need to be better at pointing out the good 5% in bad churches.

 

[Christ4Ever]

Ringgggg....end of round one!
I say this not to be flippant.
Just want everyone to catch their breath for the moment.

Brother Kingj. This is part of my fear that you would have to become a defender of that which you know is seen as anathema to those who the Catholic church sees at best as fallen brethren.

A little yeast.....and so it is with Catholicism...other denominations as well. It's just that Catholicism has had a greater amount of time for corruption to become so engrained and deceit justified as a new normal/tradition.

So a time out I believe is in order. To allow us to pray, gather ourselves for the ensuing discussion. Remembering that we are talking with brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus. Worthy of the same Love we singout to our Lord Jesus and God for so great a sacrifice.

With the love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[KingJ]

n.

A little yeast.....and so it is with Catholicism...other denominations as well. It's just that Catholicism has had a greater amount of time for corruption to become so engrained and deceit justified as a new normal/tradition

This is a good point. A small initial deviance can end up being a big one. We see this with the pope ratifying GLBT tolerance for all Catholics.

 

[KingJ]

I stated earlier I thought some RC's would be saved.
But as a whole... no. Not much. A false church with with false doctrines leading many astray.
I know that sounds harsh and "unloving". But it's the truth nonetheless.

... and I haven't even gotten to the "bad" stuff yet.

This is crazy talk BAC. The Catholic church has done a lot of good over many centuries.

I will agree that RCC doctrines have the potential to raise eyebrows and create issues where there should not be. But these really are Rom 14:5 and Luke 9:50 issues / or issues that you find are common in other denominations (like $$$ for remission of sins). For me, idolatry is an issue and so too is the pope's take on GLBT toleration. These issues many Catholics disagree on.

 

[KingJ]

The Pope Francis Statement That Changed the Church on LGBT Issues

It seems the Pope and RC church have made their decision on this.

I don't understand how Francis can say what he did when Benedict XVI suggested that gay marriage was a threat to global peace :smile:.

 

[KingJ]

Mary was of the bloodline all the way back to Adam... none of Jesus's ancestors ever sinned? Wow, that's news. Jesus's blood doesn't have the power "un-corrupt" sin? Really? Mary had this power, but Jesus doesn't?
and Yet Mary herself sinned... She said she needed a savior. ( Luke 1:47; ) Jesus rebuked her for asking Him to do things
that weren't the Father's will. ( John 2:4; ) She also wasn't the best parent, having lost Jesus when He was 12.
Were all of Mary's brothers and sister immaculate as well? ( John 19:25; )
How about Jesus's brothers and sisters? Were they immaculate as well?
Matt 12:46-47; Matt 13:55; Mark 3:31-33; Mark 6:3; Luke 8:19-20; John 2:12; John 7:3-5; John 7:10; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor 9:5;
(even Cephas (Peter) and the Lord's other brothers who were apostles were married). Gal 1:19; Matt 10:3; Matt 27:56; Mark 3:18;
Mark 15:40; Luke 6:15; Luke 24:10; Jude 1:1; etc...
Now of course some RCs say these were Joseph's children from another previous marriage. Yet Luke 2:7; says Jesus was her FIRST born.
Luke 2:23; also James the less (who was the Lord's brother, who wrote the book of James) was the son of Alphaeus. So he wouldn't
have been the son of Mary through Joseph.
Also why did Mary need to offer a sacrifice of purification? Luke 2:24; see Lev 12:2 and Lev 12:6;

The idea of immaculate conception is that Mary, who carried God of the universe, was made pure. It is not a terrible belief.

The Immaculate Conception, according to the teaching of the Catholic Church, is the conception of the Blessed Virgin Mary free from original sin by virtue of the foreseen merits of her son Jesus Christ.

 

[KingJ]

...and yet most call priests.. "father".. Father so and so...
Matt 23:9; Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven.
Matt 23:10; Do not be called leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ.

... this is getting long winded, so I'll continue later.

This is true. Something they shouldn't do. But I would bet that all do not regard the priest as their father in the same way they regard God as their Father. Nor are taught that. So we have respectful and good intentions with some naivety.

 

[KingJ]

Perhaps you are right here in a way.
It seems we are good at pointing out the 5% of bad things in good churches.
Maybe we need to be better at pointing out the good 5% in bad churches.

This is again crazy talk. We have to discern better.

Lets say you were one of the Amalekites watching the Jews pass through your land. You may have disagreed with much of what they taught and how they lived their lives. But would that justify you in attacking them / seeking to destroy them when you saw / knew that they dealt harshly with mortal sinners? They stoned to death adulterers, rapists, murderers etc. If you did, it would make you evil. Removing a speck of sawdust and swallowing a camel.

I am not saying you are swallowing a camel. I can fully understand being extremely frustrated with the RCC. But I believe you are not discerning their underlying commitment to serving Jesus. All you / anyone needs to do is consider their view on mortal and venial sins. I say this because love for God is evidenced by our hatred or love for what is evil Rom 12:9 Love must be sincere. Hate what is evil; cling to what is good.

Catholicism 101 is to flee / hate / repent asap / deal harshly with mortal sins. This is good. This with a belief in Jesus being Lord and belief in Him being a necessity for being with God makes the Catholic church (even RCC) pass the Christian acid test with flying colors in my books.

Evil exists in churches condoning mortal sins / sinners (GLBT). Or preaching that Jesus is not the way to eternal life (universalism). These churches fail on Rom 12:9.