Catholicism Informed or Not?

[amadeus2]

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

Does God ever "draw: Catholics? Most certainly, here you see already on this thread, myself and @Bendito. Likely there are others who had such a beginning,

The key or means to be drawn may well be to have a hunger and thirst for the right thing:

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled." Matt 5:6

The next question we may want to ask is: What makes a person hungry and thirsty for righteousness?

 

[Lanolin]

Sure God draws catholics. I didn't say He doesn't. He wants everyone regardless!

I think when things go wrong in the church, any church... the desire for righteousness draws people closer to God.

To me though it seems the simple gospel message is not proclaimed or mostly obscured by other things in catholicism. Because I just know so many who never got saved until they heard the gospel and they didn't hear it in the catholic church.

In the nun's story..the nun had to go through a lot of complicated trials to get to that point, but maybe its just she just didn't grasp it because even though she sang and did devotions and said all the prayers and obeyed all the rules she NEVER read the Bible. The Word was just not written on her heart and she never showed a deep relationship with Jesus and still had that thing where she couldn't forgive an enemy. Her heart was too hard and she drove herself to the ground doing Martha things instead of sitting at Jesus feet and listening like Mary.

 

[KingJ]

Well, I got into trouble on a different christian forum if I questioned anything the catholic church did. There were other christians on there but I got in the most trouble with the catholics, and in real life the most problems I had were trying to relate spiritually to catholics. It just didnt work.
So now Ive learned to avoid them and the topic of their church completely. And yes they get very angry and defensive, anything you say thats they see is negative is seen as an insult and an offence.

The worst thing I learned about the RCC is that they actually curse people who dont believe the exact same doctrines as they do.

I don't blame many Catholics for getting defensive. Many Catholics leave Christian sites because the battering just gets too much. I have learnt a lot from Catholics. I did grow up in a convent and it was a nun that actually lead me to Jesus.

They are stuck in many religious practices. But their actual beliefs are not that bad. We see the Anglicans in lessor religious practices too. So I guess I just really have an issue with this in the RCC.

 

[KingJ]

Catholicism Informed or Not?

Definitely informed. We make many assumptions and do not properly scrutinize actual Catholic teaching or history.

 

[KingJ]

Sure God draws catholics. I didn't say He doesn't. He wants everyone regardless!

I think when things go wrong in the church, any church... the desire for righteousness draws people closer to God.

To me though it seems the simple gospel message is not proclaimed or mostly obscured by other things in catholicism. Because I just know so many who never got saved until they heard the gospel and they didn't hear it in the catholic church.

In the nun's story..the nun had to go through a lot of complicated trials to get to that point, but maybe its just she just didn't grasp it because even though she sang and did devotions and said all the prayers and obeyed all the rules she NEVER read the Bible. The Word was just not written on her heart and she never showed a deep relationship with Jesus and still had that thing where she couldn't forgive an enemy. Her heart was too hard and she drove herself to the ground doing Martha things instead of sitting at Jesus feet and listening like Mary.

I don't agree with you Lanolin. How does one actually get saved?

You cannot leave a Catholic meeting without thousands of seeds on Jesus sewn into your heart. They put up a cross in front to ensure all grasp the chief focus of meeting together.

 

[Lanolin]

Well Im just going From my experience of talking with christians who were brought up catholic and every single of them said they didnt read the bible in the RCC and were never encouraged to.

Ive no doubt that there are people that DID but you see I dont know about them because...they dont fellowship with other believers they would stay in their own church and schools. And I think thats the thing if you only fellowship with catholics and snob all other christian believers that is not good.

And its also really bad when Ive heard that catholics kick out non catholics from their lords supper or make them feel stink for NOT being catholic. Hello, not everyone is!

Just yesterday my friend told me she once went to spain. She said it was a catholic country and she wanted to go to mass. They were having a midnight mass i think maybe it was christmas. Anyway I have no idea why the mass thing is at midnight cant they just have it at a normal time of day or at noon?

Anyway! She said she wanted to go and experience what its like she is not catholic but a believer right? Well she couldnt even get in the door because of all the prostitutes parading round at that time of night it wasnt safe for her to go!

Its not because shes stupid and not informed, but come on why have a Lord supper or mass at MIDNIGHT when everyone else is sleeping and its dark?!

 

[Lanolin]

After all we believers are children of the light not the darkness.

So it makes no sense...a lot of catholicism makes no sense and not easy for me to grasp. At all. Ive tried my best and read all the history books but its just not happening.

Foxes books of matyrs is one book catholics do not want others to read but you look at the history and not just their own - you look at the facts, you go to catholic vs protestant countries like ireland where and see for yourself. When you see children go to schools with barbed wire round them you ask why.

I am neither catholic nor protestant but christian.

 

[Lanolin]

I did finish the Nuns story book.

So what happened was the nun asked the Pope to leave the convent and they let her go and become a civilian. So she is no longer a nun, and im not sure if she stayed catholic..it probably never leaves her..but am not sure either that she was born again in the way that ordinary christians know.

I do think she was not able to grasp the teachings of her particular order were very strict. Yes christians obey God and its easier that way but when theres lots of rules on top of that and you dont have the heart for it, then no all the rules in the world are not going to make you a christian in your heart..youd just be going through the motions.

I mean if it were me i might find being a nun to be a blessing cos I know Jesus first. But this nun found it difficult and she didnt go directly to Him and humble herself and simply ask. Instead she went to her mother superior and had to ask permission on what to do and flagellate herself with a stick.

 

[Lanolin]

I went to a funeral of a suicide this year..and this boy he went to a catholic school. His prarents werent believers but you think maybe if children go to a catholic school seeds of the gospel are planted? But no. He was suffering depression and didnt know God and didnt have hope.

The service they had for him was at a christian centre but was not catholic, and he was cremated. i didnt know him he was a cousin of one of my friends. So yea On the face of it i think well what are they actually teaching in catholic schools? I dont think its to have faith cos he didnt have any.

 

[KingJ]

Foxes books of matyrs is one book catholics do not want others to read but you look at the history and not just their own - you look at the facts, you go to catholic vs protestant countries like ireland where and see for yourself. When you see children go to schools with barbed wire round them you ask why.

Well I know protestants have a huge lead over Catholics with murder. Cromwell murdered 660 000 in just three years (1649 - 1652).

As for torture, from wikipedia:

In 1586 British citizen, Protestant Margaret Clitherow, converted to Catholicism and was arrested for harboring a Catholic priest. Her sentence? The same as all who converted, she was to be crushed to death beneath a half tone of weights. She is recorded as stating, “I am fully resolved in all things touching my faith, which I ground upon Jesus Christ, and by him I steadfastly believe to be saved, which faith I acknowledge to be the same that he left to his apostles, and they to their successors from time to time, and is taught in the Catholic Church through all Christendom, and promised to remain with her unto the world's end, and hell-gates shall not prevail against the same faith; for if an angel come from heaven, and preach any other doctrine than we have received, the Apostle biddeth us not believe him.” As her ribs cracked, Margaret whimpered, "Jesus! Jesus! Jesus! Have mercy on me." Her body was left under the door and weights from 9 a.m. to 3 p.m., then stuffed secretly in a rubbish heap. Queen Elizabeth who ordered this execution, was responsible for murdering more Catholic in one year that the Inquisition did in all its over three hundred years. Anglican bishops were accomplices if not directly but for their silence.

What we see here is that the devil had his hand influencing both sides. Both follow Jesus and Jesus would never sanction any of this. That much is obvious and true in both belief systems.

In addition if anyone kind of idolizes Martin Luther, they need to read up on his statements regarding the treatment of Catholics. He was not close to being a saint / Christ like on the matter.

 

[KingJ]

So what happened was the nun asked the Pope to leave the convent and they let her go and become a civilian. So she is no longer a nun, and im not sure if she stayed catholic..it probably never leaves her..but am not sure either that she was born again in the way that ordinary christians know.

I see you never responded to my question. So allow me to humbly explain how exactly one becomes born again and why there is absolutely no difference in the Catholic church.

I don't want to attack the format that protestants follow as there is truth to it. Rather I will just focus on what actually happens and is needed to bring about a born again event.

Step 1. We have to want to hate what is evil and cling to what is good Rom 12:9.
Step 2. God judges the heart and mind on a level no human can Jer 17:9-10.
Step 3. If they pass, God pays the individual a visit. Only by the Holy Spirit can anyone believe that Jesus is Lord 1 Cor 12:3.

So, just because protestants follow different traditions / practices not done by the Catholic church does not mean Catholics cannot be / are not any more or less saved.

All I will say is that a learned Catholic who is saved should grow weary of all the ''religious practices'' the Catholic church does do. But then in their defense, I have heard from personal friends that they would rather have that in the Catholic church over what is done in some charismatic churches. They have a valid point imho.

Of course my church is the best. We are not Catholic or overly charismatic .

 

[Christ4Ever]

@KingJ

Dear Brother they are not viewed the same.
The reason is because baptism is viewed differently by each.

The below initial post is well done on the subject of Born Again.

How does one get born again?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Lanolin]

I think they cant be the same as my experience of being saved and born again is different. Even the catholic bible is different from a normal bible it has extra books but when you read them they contradict what the rest of scripture says, thats why thry are not put in the Holy Bible.

Sometimes catholics will use the same words but mean something totally different. Thats where it gets confusing. I cant say that protestants are all christians either some are atheists and agnostics that dont like any kind of religion. Catholics just call people protestants because they PROTEST against the rules of their church. The history is such that these rules are imposed on others. You dont really have a choice to believe in the rcc church. That is why there is infant baptism. Now there is nothing wrong with dedicating your child to God but in the bible its repentance first and then baptism. John the baptist even turned people (the pharisees) away when they tried to be baptised without repenting!

 

[Lanolin]

Well Jesus church is best. I think because I heard so many stories of weird practices in catholicism that I am turned off by it..esp the shrines and staues and things..its just too much like idolatry.

And then all the rules and stuff you have to follow. To me it doesnt sound much different to belonging to an ashram.

I tend to stay away from catholicism its really not my thing and neither is charismania where you go to what you think is church and it ends up being a rock concert.

 

[Lanolin]

I didnt know what to say to the girl that told me she was considering becoming a nun. I did invite her to bible study homegroup and she actially asked to go but then every time i said hey its on want to come with me she made some excuse.

So I kind of gave up, I did pray for her though. Her whole family is catholic and its just part of their culture and from what she told me its quite bureuacratic. She did go with her family to the vatican this year and they got blessed by the pope which is like a big deal for them.

Me..I have zero interest in the pope or vatican..

 

[KingJ]

@KingJ

Dear Brother they are not viewed the same.
The reason is because baptism is viewed differently by each.

The below initial post is well done on the subject of Born Again.

How does one get born again?

With the Love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

I am not sure what in that thread opposes anything I have said.

Baptisms and being born again are separate issues, so it's a non issue.

The bible is crystal clear that anyone who calls Jesus Lord has the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:3. John 3:16 confirms that ''whosoever believes in the begotten Son, Jesus, shall be saved'' (something only possible with a revelation from God as 1 Cor 12:3 clearly states). So to state that Catholics are not saved requires us to believe everyone in attendance does not really know Jesus as Lord. Insanely long shot assumption when all you are taught about is Jesus.

Nobody has the power to get someone saved. No magical reciting of scriptures or repeating of phrases gets someone saved. It is all God's doing. Us, our churches and others can only sew seeds in the unsaved's hearts. Prompting them to deal with this decision of hating what is evil vs loving it.

The only discussion we can have is that perhaps our church / denomination teaches scripture and Jesus better then others. We cannot run down any Christian denomination Luke 9:50.

 

[KingJ]

Well Jesus church is best. I think because I heard so many stories of weird practices in catholicism that I am turned off by it..esp the shrines and staues and things..its just too much like idolatry.

And then all the rules and stuff you have to follow. To me it doesnt sound much different to belonging to an ashram.

I tend to stay away from catholicism its really not my thing and neither is charismania where you go to what you think is church and it ends up being a rock concert.

Lanolin you need to study and interrogate things better. You just making wild assumptions and statements. I have done some studying (I used to also make wild statements) and can honestly say that the Catholic church is actually very good (Not as good as my church obviously). We really do make terrible assumptions.

 

[Christ4Ever]

@KingJ
So much to say brother in regards to your response. Sadly I'm working out, typing with one finger on a tiny keyboard on my phone makes it almost exasperating for the words I would share with you. (sigh)

Church tonight after the workout so an even greater delay in responding.

I have my own experiences with Catholicism. I'll share as the Spirit moves me to do, but not at this moment. sweating up a storm!!

With the love of Christ Jesus.
YBIC
Nick
<><

 

[Curtis]

If anyone so desires to know the truth from the heart, as this is what Lord looks upon, God will draw that person out of that Church who is not teaching it to where it is being taught.

 

[B-A-C]

There have been many other threads here on TJ about the false teachings of the RC church, but yet...

I think some RC's will be saved. Not because they are Roman Catholics, but rather in spite of them being Roman Catholics.