Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?

rojoloco · Dec 2, 2010

MightyAngel1 said:
Well, God says that you do have freewill. God said in the Old Testament that the Children of Israel under the Law of Moses had freewill. And, God is no respecter of persons and God does not change.

You keep using this to back your teaching up but it is apples to oranges. Free will within a nature is not the same as free will to choose something outside of our nature.

MightyAngel1 said:
Now, If John Calvin teaches you that you do not have freewill, I can assure you by the evidence of Scripture and by God's own declaration that John Calvin did not get this teaching from God.

Once again, John Calvin never taught this. You need to understand the nature before you will understand how it interacts with the will.

MightyAngel1 said:
John Calvin got this teaching from something else. His own mind that was short of understanding God's Holy Word and short of understanding God's own declaration in Scripture.

Your entire post from this point on pretty much hinges on this statement. However, this statement is erroneous ignorance (no offense) so it holds no ground. That being said, the entire remainder of your post holds no ground as a result. I will still reply to it for the sake of addressing the falsehood though.

MightyAngel1 said:
I firmly believe that John Calvin saw God's own declaration of the Children of Israel having freewill under the Law of Moses, but, He just could not bring himself to believe it.

This is quite the assumption for one to be making considering you clearly do not have the slightest idea what Calvin actually taught. Have you ever read the Institutes of the Christian Religion? That would be a good place to start if you really want to know what he taught. If you choose to refrain from reading it, I kindly request you also refrain from telling others what he taught and believed since you won't really know until you read it.

MightyAngel1 said:
So, John Calvin decided to develop his own teaching. And, He did and millions of Christians today believe that they do not have freewill. And, These Christians who hold to Calvinism frown upon those Christians who know that they do have freewill.

Once again, false. The name Calvinism was not coined until well after Calvin's death. Much of the teaching held within Calvinism was actually popularized and expounded on by Calvin's successor, Theodore Beza. Calvin actually left quite a bit up to the mysteries of God. As for what Calvin taught, it was mostly the same stuff that was taught ~350 A.D. by Saint Augustine. Calvin didn't actually create anything at all. He just devoted his life to preaching the Word of God.

rojoloco · Dec 2, 2010

MightyAngel1 said:
God gives to every man a measure of faith. See Romans 12:3. Why does God do this? God gives to every man a measure of faith to believe in His Only Son, Jesus Christ. This is the purpose God gives to every man a measure of faith.

This is a common argument that is weak at best to be honest. Really look at what you are claiming here. You are saying that every single man on Earth has been allotted faith. You call it a measure of faith but it would have to be faith nonetheless. Considering Ephesians 2:8 says we are saved through faith by the grace of God, this would mean every person on Earth would be saved due to the faith they have all been given. Not only this but the notion that God gives every man on Earth faith is:

a) completely out of context
b) not supported by the surrounding verses
c) not even supported by historical Arminianism

The context of Romans 12 clearly shows that Paul is writing to fellow believers. This is evident by his usage of the word bretheren (v.1). Not only this but he also tells us to prove what the will of God is. We know this will of God is for His Elect to be reconciled to Him. Like the word or not, it is a word used in Scripture and there is no denying this fact. One must either embrace it or dance around it but they can never deny it. Everything in Romans 12 refers to believers so there is no reason to believe verse 3 is any different...especially when the rest of that same verse is about believers only. This means the accurate context is that God has allotted a measure of faith to each believer.

If you really wanted to go historical, you could try claiming that God has given each man a measure of grace. This is the point Jacobus Arminius made. He believed man was totally depraved and incapable of choosing God in his own free will. However, he believed that God then gave prevenient grace to everybody on Earth for all time so that they could then choose Him. He felt that, without this prevenient grace, man could never choose Him but, with it, man was now capable of performing such an act. He never taught universal measure of delivered faith but rather, that of prevenient grace. However, the concept of prevenient grace is not taught in Scripture. Arminians use verses such as Romans 12:3 and replace faith with grace to make their point but grace and faith are clearly 2 distinctly separate things.

Again, your stance is out of context, out of historical teaching (for your own belief system nonetheless), and is not supported by the verses within the chapter.

MightyAngel1 said:
God has also given to every man something else as well. God has also given mankind freewill. So, Man with the measure of faith from God and his freewill has the choice now to receive Jesus Christ or not after hearing the Gospel.

If God gave each man faith, each man would have a level of belief. Yet, Scripture declares man to be incapable of understanding the things that are Spiritually discerned (1 Corinthians 2:14). However, it does say man can have a head knowledge type of belief because even the angels have this and they shudder. However, belief is not the same as faith. The word faith is used in Scripture when referring to salvation or belief in the Gospel; not general belief or an ability to believe. Look for it. You won't find it.

MightyAngel1 said:
If after hearing the Saving Gospel of Jesus Christ, A man chooses to not accept the Gift of Salvation provided by Jesus Christ, then, God says that this man is condemned for not believing on His Only Son, Jesus Christ. John 3:18b.

Actually, it says he is already condemned but that is a whole different can of worms.

MightyAngel1 said:
Suffice it to say, God's Election is conditional. The Condition of God's Election is a person's choice to follow Jesus Christ. Once a person chooses to follow Jesus Christ, then, this person becomes a member of one of the following Seeds in the Seed Covenant of Abraham in the New Testament...

I'll give you a few "pieces of fat" to chew on regarding unconditional election:

Matthew 11:27
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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style>  </style>nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

This looks pretty unconditional to me. According to this, man has no say whatsoever. It really all depends on whether or not the Son chooses to reveal the Father. You may say that the Son chooses to reveal the Father to everybody yet...

Matthew 22:14
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unctuationKerning/> <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/> <w:SaveIfXMLInvalid>false</w:SaveIfXMLInvalid> <w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent> <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style>  </style>For many are called, but few are chosen.

So what happens to the Elect?

Romans 8:28
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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style>  </style>And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

Romans 8:30a
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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style>  </style>and these whom He predestined, He also called;

God's Election came before His calling. He elected unconditionally, the Son chooses to reveal the Father unconditionally, and those who are called are eternally in the Will of the Father so that all things work together for good to those who love Him...His Elect.

If election was conditional, nobody would have been elected because nobody would have been revealed by the Son. Scripture is clear that there are 2 groups; those revealed and those not revealed. This means those not revealed will never know the Father. The only existing condition was the condition of whether or not the Son revealed the Father and he only did this to the Elect of God.

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MightyAngel1 said:
If a man, woman, or child is Jewish who choose to follow Jesus Christ as Messiah, They are called into the Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the heaven. Genesis 21:12, Romans 9:7, and Hebrews 11:18. They become Saints.

If a man, woman, or child is Gentile who choose to follow Jesus Christ, they are called into the Seed of Abraham multiplied as the stars of the heaven. Romans 10:9-10, Acts 15:14, and Ephesians 2:8-9. They become Christian.

Saints and Christians are synonymous (Romans 1:7).

MightyAngel1 said:
Now, This part of the writing...You say..."He always will choose God once this occurred!"

No, Man will not always choose God. Because, Once God makes the offer of Salvation and this offer is rejected, then, God sends a strong delusion so that everyone who rejects Salvation will believe a lie. 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

Many are called but few are chosen. The reason few will believe is because they are not all chosen, have not all been revealed the Father by the Son, and cannot all understand the things of the Spirit because they do not have the Spirit.

MightyAngel1 said:
The Bottom line is simply this. A person has a freewill to choose to Love the Truth or Choose to not love the Truth. Once a person makes their choice to reject the Love of the Truth, God will turn them over to a reprobate mind for a Christian, see Romans 1:28, and or an apostate, see Hebrews 4:6, if they are a Saint.

Your claim of this goes against one's nature. The unregenerate man is free to not love God but he is not free to love God. The freedom is not limited by God. God is not forcing this man to stay away. However, God is not calling him unto Himself either. This man is choosing to stay away out of his own free will because his nature does not desire the things of God. This is why, though not having the ability to choose God, he is still held accountable. He is willingly rejecting God with every fiber of his body. God is sovereign in all things yet man is still responsible for his actions that he partakes in gladly.

rojoloco · Dec 2, 2010

MightyAngel1 said:
There is Calvinism and there is God! Calvinism teaches man has no freewill. God says that Man does have freewill. So, The Graph looks like this...

Calvinism says----------------------God says
---Man has--------------------------Man has
--No Freewill------------------------Freewill

The question is simply this...Who is a Christian going to believe? Calvinism? Or, God?

The question here is not whether or not one will believe Calvin because Calvin is not being represented one iota in this post. The question really boils down to whether or not anyone will believe your misrepresentation of Calvinism or will they believe my representation of it. Whether one wants to agree with Calvinism or not is their choice. However, I think it is safe to say that I can explain it leaps and bounds better than you can because I think only one of us really knows what it teaches. Just saying.

MightyAngel1 said:
For me, with all due respect and with the Love of Jesus Christ, This graph is really a No Brainer. God never lies. Numbers 23:19.

Yet the graph is one giant lie so what does that say about your posts? Should we believe them or take them with a grain of salt. Perhaps lie is too strong of a word. However, I don't think you would take very kindly to ignorance either. Maybe misinformed is the best word to use here. Yep, I think so.

MightyAngel1 said:
And, Calvinism? Well, Even Polemic Reformers like John Calvin were not perfect. They made mistakes in their Scripture interpretation.

This is true. For instance, he taught infant baptism which I do not agree with.

MightyAngel1 said:
Those Christians who believe that they do not have freewill have made their freewill choice. And, Their freewill Choice has been recorded in Heaven for God to judge them on their Judgment day. Their freewill choice is to believe Calvinism in that they do not have freewill. Fascinating isn't!

And, in this, we do have free will. However, that will does not extend into the realm of salvation.

rojoloco · Dec 2, 2010

Tusk Barnes said:
I'm looking forward to reading these. A friend of mine recommended Edwards just last weekend. Can't wait to check them out.

If you like deep material, this will be right up your alley. The Freedom of the Will is a difficult read (I had to take a break from it and will continue it soon) but it is rock solid.

Tusk Barnes said:
Quick question, though. How are we built incapable of choosing Him and punished for it?

It is because we still gladly partake in the things we do. The unregenerate man may not be capable of choosing God but this does not mean God is actively forcing the person to stay away. The person is gladly doing this all on their own because their nature and desires yearn for nothing other than this. Man is still guilty for willingly doing that which he does.

Tusk Barnes said:
And does it strike you as peculiar that most of those who hold to Calvinism also believe that they are the blessed elect? I mean, I've yet to meet a Calvinist who also thought God hadn't found him./quote]

This is to be expected. However, Calvinists will not say only other Calvinists are the Elect of God. We will say that every believer is the Elect of God whether he be a Calvinist, Arminian, etc. Just because an Arminian believe he chose God and not the other way around does not make it so. He is still saved, still loves God, and was still chosen by God unconditonally.

rojoloco · Dec 2, 2010

MightyAngel1 said:
That is your opinion. I do not share that opinion with you.

Actually, that is fact. Me saying Calvinism is correct is my opinion. However, my saying that you do not understand what Calvinism teaches is a fact that has been shown in your posts.

MightyAngel1 said:
Not according to God.

Or perhaps it is simply not according to MightyAngel1 a.k.a. Dr. Mike.

MightyAngel1 said:
And, You cannot ever say that either because God says that you do.

Show me the verse that says, ""Every man has free will." You won't find it. Free will is not an explicit teaching. It is one that is, at best, implicit. However, in proper context, we can see it is not even implicit.

MightyAngel1 said:
Well, God has never said that. The Compatibilist sense is man's attempt to understand a very simple Concept of God's Nature which man was made in the image of. See Genesis 1:26. And, Man's attempt here fails miserably.

Actually, compatibilism is the ONLY logical option.

MightyAngel1 said:
The Doctrine of Compatibilism comes from the teaching of Hard Determinism which teaches that nothing is free. Therefore, The bottom line of Hard Determinism is that Human actions are not free which ultimately leads to the belief that human beings have no freewill.

Therefore, Hard Determinism is a concept of Man that stands contrary to the Holy Word of God when applied to Human beings created in the Image and Likeness of God.

This shows you not only have an improper understanding of what Calvinism teaches but you also have an improper understanding of what the doctrine of compatibilism teaches. Compatibilism does not come from Hard Determinism. In fact, Compatibilism actually argues against Hard Determinism. You can't take H.D. and say bad things about Compatibilism based on it because the 2 are quite different and actually oppose each other.

MightyAngel1 said:
If what you say is true, then the following must also be true. A baby is born. But, a Baby cannot understand the things of an Adult. And, Is therefore deeply ingrained to hate becoming an adult.

Just because one does not understand something does not mean it is destined to hate it. However, one often does come to love something after they really come to know it more. For instance, I hated my pogo stick as a kid and thought I would never learn how to use it. Once I got fairly proficient at it, I came to love it. However, if I had never learned how to use it, I would have continued to hate it. Scripture is clear that the unregenerate man hates God. It is also clear that the unregenerate man cannot choose God unless God first calls and the Son first reveals. However, it says this man WILL come to God if this occurs. If man hates God and can never come to know God, he will never come to love God and will continually hate God.

MightyAngel1 said:
This is why millions of Christian today feed on the milk of the Word of God because they do not want to graduate to Adult food in the Word of God. And, Why Calvinism is so easily spread around in the Christian ranks.

Actually, I've found (as have studies) that Calvinists are typically more ravenous for studying Scripture than any other group. It is typically Arminians who are satisfied with milk. There is a danger for Calvinists in this though. While Arminians, satisfied with milk, have heartfelt compassion, Calvinists, feasting on meat, often can become arrogant with their level of knowledge. It is difficult for one to really sit in both areas and most people fall short on it regardless of what camp they come from.

MightyAngel1 said:
But, as we all know, short of death, babies will grow and mature into an Adult. Thereby disproving what you claim in your quote above because many babies have been born and once they have reached an age of understanding, Choose Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

They will only choose Christ if they have already been chosen by God. If not, they will continue on in their sin and will never know the Father because the Son will not reveal Him.

MightyAngel1 said:
And, Calvinism is an invention of a polemic man, and a humanist lawyer, by the name of John Calvin.

As already stated by me, Calvinism was not invented by Calvin. It did not even come to be called this until well after his death or much of the categories (such as TULIP and others) were organized by Theodore Beza. Regardless, Calvinism hardly begins with Calvin. It only bears his name because he was one of the Reformers when it all became an issue with the Catholic Church.

rojoloco · Dec 2, 2010

JDFree said:
Let me see if I got that right: an unregenerate man is free to choose God, but will never choose God, and cannot choose God, but may choose God, but will not want to because he hates God, so nobody can choose God because all are unregenerate without God in them, and they can't understand anything of God anyway: but you chose God when you were unregenerate and hated God and couldn't understand the things of God and now you are a Christian?? Interesting.

Pretty much. You just left out one thing. The only reason I was able to understand the things of God and choose Him is because he first regenerated me, took up residence within me, and showed me the things of God from a spiritual perspective for the first time in my life. At this time, God became irresistible. I chose Him but there really was no other option because everything within me yearned for Him and there was zero desire left to reject Him. Being that one only chooses that which he has the greatest desire for, the choice was free yet bound.

JDFree said:
In my case, God revealed Himself to me, and I chose Him by free will decision, and He chose me, and we're real happy with each other so far. Looking forward to a few kazillion years in the heavenly kingdom to get to know Him better. I'll bet He plays a mean game of snooker.

And if you had not chosen Him, would you have thwarted His Will? The ability to choose or reject salvation really boils down to 2 very important things. It either means:

a) God's purposeful and sovereign Will can be thwarted
b) God has no purposeful or sovereign Will regarding salvation

I shudder to think of either of these fallacies.

jiggyfly · Dec 3, 2010

rojoloco said:
Short answer: Reconciliation to God by the calling of the Father, made possible through the death/resurrection of the Son, and made effective by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. Isn't the working of the Trinity beautiful? Soli Deo Gloria!

So basically you see salvation and reconciliation as the same thing correct?

Jaareshiah · Dec 3, 2010

Seeker Of Jesus said:
Once saved, always saved? Can a Christian lose their salvation after they have truly accepted Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior?

No one is once saved, then always saved. James, the half brother of Jesus, wrote: "Happy is the man that keeps on enduring trial, because on becoming approved he will receive the crown of life, which Jehovah promised to those who continue loving him."(James 1:12, New World Translation) This is in harmony with Jesus words, that "he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved."(Matt 24:13)

Thus, only those who "keeps on enduring trial ", "to the end", and then on "becoming approved " receive the "crown of life " for those who continue loving Jehovah God for all eternity. Hence, the hope of being saved can be lost, for endurance is an essential requirement, whether to the point of death or the end of this "system of things", in order to ' become approved ' before Jehovah God and only then will the "crown of life" be given to them.

rojoloco · Dec 3, 2010

jiggyfly said:
So basically you see salvation and reconciliation as the same thing correct?

Pretty much.

rojoloco · Dec 3, 2010

Jaareshiah said:
No one is once saved, then always saved. James, the half brother of Jesus, wrote: "Happy is the man that keeps on enduring trial, because on becoming approved he will receive the crown of life, which Jehovah promised to those who continue loving him."(James 1:12, New World Translation) This is in harmony with Jesus words, that "he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved."(Matt 24:13)

Thus, only those who "keeps on enduring trial ", "to the end", and then on "becoming approved " receive the "crown of life " for those who continue loving Jehovah God for all eternity. Hence, the hope of being saved can be lost, for endurance is an essential requirement, whether to the point of death or the end of this "system of things", in order to ' become approved ' before Jehovah God and only then will the "crown of life" be given to them.

With that opinion, you will be hard pressed to explain the following:

John 5:24
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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style>  </style>Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Those who are reconciled to the Father through the Son have already passed from death unto life. We are counted as justified and bypass judgment. One cannot be rebirthed into death. We can only pass from death into life or remain in death the entire time with no life.

1 Corinthians 6:9b-11
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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style>  </style>Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the <st1

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lace>. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Notice how it says we were sanctified, were washed, were justified. It is all in the past tense because it is a completed act.

Romans 5:1
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ontGrowAutofit/> </w:Compatibility> <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel> </w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style>  </style>Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Once again, our faith does not qualify us to be justified at a later point. We are justified (past tense) at the moment of salvation which occurs at the moment of saving faith.

I recently gave a sermon on justification that I think would benefit you greatly. At the very least, it might be an enjoyable read and it isn't very long. Let me know if you are interested.

Jaareshiah · Dec 3, 2010

rojoloco said:
With that opinion, you will be hard pressed to explain the following:

John 5:24
<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Crogerst%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>  </style>Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

Those who are reconciled to the Father through the Son have already passed from death unto life. We are counted as justified and bypass judgment. One cannot be rebirthed into death. We can only pass from death into life or remain in death the entire time with no life.

1 Corinthians 6:9b-11
<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Crogerst%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" name="PlaceName"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" name="PlaceType"></o:smarttagtype><o:smarttagtype namespaceuri="urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" name="place"></o:smarttagtype><style>  </style>Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the <st1lace w:st="on"><st1lacetype w:st="on">kingdom</st1lacetype> of <st1lacename w:st="on">God</st1lacename></st1lace>. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Notice how it says we were sanctified, were washed, were justified. It is all in the past tense because it is a completed act.

Romans 5:1
<link rel="File-List" href="file:///C:%5CDOCUME%7E1%5Crogerst%5CLOCALS%7E1%5CTemp%5Cmsohtml1%5C01%5Cclip_filelist.xml"><style>  </style>Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Once again, our faith does not qualify us to be justified at a later point. We are justified (past tense) at the moment of salvation which occurs at the moment of saving faith.

I recently gave a sermon on justification that I think would benefit you greatly. At the very least, it might be an enjoyable read and it isn't very long. Let me know if you are interested.

I am not "hard pressed" to explain John 5:24, for Jesus had already laid the "ground rules" regarding gaining everlasting life. At John 3:16, 18, Jesus told Nicodemus that "everyone exercising faith in him (as the only-begotten Son of God) might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.....He that exercises faith is not to be judged (adversely, subject to destruction, having "passed over from death to life"). He that does not exercise faith has been judged (adversely, subject to everlasting destruction) already (having been given the opportunity to exercise faith but refused or quit) because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God."

Thus, those who "exercise faith" (not just believe) in Jesus as the Son of God with endurance, will be granted life without end, either on the earth as "meek ones"(Matt 5:5) or as "kings and priests" as members of God's heavenly kingdom.(Rev 5:9,10)

At John 8:51, Jesus told the Jews: "Most truly I say to you, If anyone observes my word, he will never see death at all.” He further told Martha just before he resurrected her brother Lazarus: "He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; and everyone that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all."(John 11:25, 26)

In addition, in speaking to his disciples regarding being "objects of hatred" and possibly being put to death, Jesus clearly said that "by endurance on your part you will acquire your souls (or future life prospects of living forever)."(Luke 21:19) Without loyal endurance, no everlasting life.

Hence, gaining everlasting life is contingent upon "exercising faith" with endurance down to the "end."(Matt 24:13) The churches teach that all that is needed to gain God's favor is to "believe on the Lord Jesus". This, however, does not measure up to "exercising faith", meaning that one's faith is loyally active, ' observing Jesus words'.

How many that call themselves Christian are "no part of the world"(John 15:19), not meddling in the political arena, either actively or passively ? How many that call themselves Christian are proclaiming the "good news of the kingdom" from house to house, in imitation of Jesus ?(Matt 24:14) How many that call themselves Christian are clean morally, and remaining as such, not being disloyal to their mate or giving either vocal or tacit approval of the "alternative life style", such as homosexuality or lesbianism ?(1 Cor 6:9, 10)

How many that calls themselves Christian have freed themselves of unclean habits, such as cigarette smoking, applying Paul's inspired counsel to "cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God’s fear" ?(2 Cor 7:1) How many that calls themselves Christian have put on the "new personality", being meek and mild even under "tribulation" ?(Col 3:10) How many that calls themselves Christian are following Romans 10:13: "For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved" ?

James reiterated what Jesus had already laid out for those who would gain everlasting life: "Happy is the man that keeps on enduring trial, because on becoming approved he will receive the crown of life, which Jehovah promised to those who continue loving him."(James 1:12) Those who "keeps on enduring trial" by exercising faith, observing Jesus words, are "declared righteous" (Rom 5:1, "justified", King James Bible)

This being "declared righteous" is dependent upon squeezing through the "narrow door" to life, for Jesus said: "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."(Luke 13:24) Everlasting life is only granted to those who enduringly never stop exercising faith in Jesus as God's Son, always observing his words, no matter what may present itself, those who continue loving his heavenly Father, Jehovah God.(Matt 22:37)

Jesus said that no one is saved until "the end".(Matt 24:13) Anyone who has run a race recognizes that the race must be run to "the end" in order to collect the reward.(Heb 12:1) As the apostle John wrote: "he that does the will of God remains forever."(1 John 2:17)

rojoloco · Dec 5, 2010

Jaareshiah said:
I am not "hard pressed" to explain John 5:24, for Jesus had already laid the "ground rules" regarding gaining everlasting life. At John 3:16, 18, Jesus told Nicodemus that "everyone exercising faith in him (as the only-begotten Son of God) might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.....He that exercises faith is not to be judged (adversely, subject to destruction, having "passed over from death to life"). He that does not exercise faith has been judged (adversely, subject to everlasting destruction) already (having been given the opportunity to exercise faith but refused or quit) because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God."

Thus, those who "exercise faith" (not just believe) in Jesus as the Son of God with endurance, will be granted life without end, either on the earth as "meek ones"(Matt 5:5) or as "kings and priests" as members of God's heavenly kingdom.(Rev 5:9,10)

While you are sort of on the right track, you are also teetering on a dangerous line. If our salvation hinges upon our active belief, it makes salvation dependent upon our own doing. It means it is based on our works and what we do in our life. If salvation is dependent upon exercising anything at all, it places it in the works-dependent category. The truth of the matter is that exercising faith is actually dependent upon salvation. One who has salvation will continue to exercise their faith because the Father has reserved a spot in Heaven for them, the Father preserves them, the Son keeps His sheep and loses not one, and the Spirit regenerates this person from the get go. You are on the right track but you have it completely flip flopped.

Jaareshiah said:
At John 8:51, Jesus told the Jews: "Most truly I say to you, If anyone observes my word, he will never see death at all.” He further told Martha just before he resurrected her brother Lazarus: "He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; and everyone that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all."(John 11:25, 26)

And this is true. However, the reason one will never die is not because he exercises faith. The reason he exercises faith is because he will never die. It is because he has been born of God. Many people say faith is the cause and eternal life is the effect when the truth is salvation is the cause and faith is the effect. God takes action, God preserves His own, and God eventually brings His home. We have a responsibility to be faithful but that is only possible because God preserves us.

Jaareshiah said:
In addition, in speaking to his disciples regarding being "objects of hatred" and possibly being put to death, Jesus clearly said that "by endurance on your part you will acquire your souls (or future life prospects of living forever)."(Luke 21:19) Without loyal endurance, no everlasting life.

Yet there are even more verses that confirm that we are only capable of enduring because of our preservation through Christ. Either way, Luke 21:19 does not say our working will keep our salvation active. It simply confirms that we will endure.

Jaareshiah said:
Hence, gaining everlasting life is contingent upon "exercising faith" with endurance down to the "end."(Matt 24:13) The churches teach that all that is needed to gain God's favor is to "believe on the Lord Jesus". This, however, does not measure up to "exercising faith", meaning that one's faith is loyally active, ' observing Jesus words'.

Again, this borders on a works based faith. It is true that all that is needed is to believe in Christ. Scripture says it and I believe it. That being said, there is more to belief than just a head knowledge. The saving faith described in Scripture is a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It is in this love relationship that we desire to be bond servants of Christ. It is not a grueling task but an enjoyable one. It is God who preserves our hearts spirit and ensures He loses not one.

The "P" in TULIP (Perseverance of the Saints) does not mean people can live however they want and still be saved. It means that God will cause His own to persevere in love, faith, and good deeds. It is not us keeping our salvation active. It is all God's doing.

Jaareshiah said:
How many that call themselves Christian are "no part of the world"(John 15:19), not meddling in the political arena, either actively or passively ? How many that call themselves Christian are proclaiming the "good news of the kingdom" from house to house, in imitation of Jesus ?(Matt 24:14) How many that call themselves Christian are clean morally, and remaining as such, not being disloyal to their mate or giving either vocal or tacit approval of the "alternative life style", such as homosexuality or lesbianism ?(1 Cor 6:9, 10)

Letting a few bad apples spoil the bunch is never a good idea. Also, there is such a thing as an immature Christian. The people of Corinth were no doubt saved but they had serious problems in their Spiritual maturity. We will know each other by our fruit but some will have more fruit than others.

Jaareshiah said:
How many that calls themselves Christian have freed themselves of unclean habits, such as cigarette smoking, applying Paul's inspired counsel to "cleanse ourselves of every defilement of flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in God’s fear" ?(2 Cor 7:1) How many that calls themselves Christian have put on the "new personality", being meek and mild even under "tribulation" ?(Col 3:10) How many that calls themselves Christian are following Romans 10:13: "For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved" ?

Again, this is bordering on legalism. I agree that there will be a drastic change in the Christian's life. After all, we are called to be a peculiar people. However, it is not a requirement that one check off a list of character traits in order to be a true believer. Some of that comes in time through Spiritual growth.

Jaareshiah said:
James reiterated what Jesus had already laid out for those who would gain everlasting life: "Happy is the man that keeps on enduring trial, because on becoming approved he will receive the crown of life, which Jehovah promised to those who continue loving him."(James 1:12) Those who "keeps on enduring trial" by exercising faith, observing Jesus words, are "declared righteous" (Rom 5:1, "justified", King James Bible)

There are tons of people who try to say James advocates salvation through works. However, upon closer study, one can easily see James compliments the "preserved by God" doctrine that is all over the New Testament.

Jaareshiah said:
This being "declared righteous" is dependent upon squeezing through the "narrow door" to life, for Jesus said: "Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able."(Luke 13:24) Everlasting life is only granted to those who enduringly never stop exercising faith in Jesus as God's Son, always observing his words, no matter what may present itself, those who continue loving his heavenly Father, Jehovah God.(Matt 22:37)

Jesus is the door. Faith in Christ is the requirement to go through the door. Once he is in our life (by saving faith), he never leaves our life. Being declared righteous and justified is an act of Christ. God looks at us and sees His Son. We wear his robs of righteousness. The Spirit keeps us in Him as well. It is not our endurance but God's preservation.

Jaareshiah said:
Jesus said that no one is saved until "the end".(Matt 24:13) Anyone who has run a race recognizes that the race must be run to "the end" in order to collect the reward.(Heb 12:1) As the apostle John wrote: "he that does the will of God remains forever."(1 John 2:17)

You keep using texts that speak of the end times and Christ's return. They are not really applicable to this discussion. Also, there is nothing wrong with a word of encouragement. However, this word of encouragement does not mean that salvation hinges on the will of man whatsoever.

JDFree · Dec 5, 2010

Jaareshiah said:
I am not "hard pressed" to explain John 5:24, for Jesus had already laid the "ground rules" regarding gaining everlasting life. At John 3:16, 18, Jesus told Nicodemus that "everyone exercising faith in him (as the only-begotten Son of God) might not be destroyed but have everlasting life.....He that exercises faith is not to be judged (adversely, subject to destruction, having "passed over from death to life"). He that does not exercise faith has been judged (adversely, subject to everlasting destruction) already (having been given the opportunity to exercise faith but refused or quit) because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God."

Too bad you use a phony 'gospel' there, in a phony translation: the fabricated Jehovah's Witness RE-WRITE of Scripture, 'New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures', NOT BASED on original Textus Receptus/Majority Text or other ancient texts! Textus Receptus has a note in the first printed version from brothers Elzevir: "What you have here, is the text which is now received by all, in which we give nothing changed or corrupted." That's FAR different from the 'New World Translation' which is FULL of changes & corruptions to intentionally deny what IS WRITTEN in Textus Receptus: clearly describing the diety of Christ as God! That diety of Christ, in every reference, is DELETED from JW's 'bible' and changed, with additions NOT FOUND in original texts! Incorrect words, not found in 'original' manuscripts, are added to press a personal doctrine, others mis-interpreted, incorrectly translated. Great book to wager your eternal life on all right!

We have no 'originals' positively known to be written by Christ's disciples; likely our Lord has those tacked to the walls of His Throne Room in heaven! But Textus Receptus is ancient & authentic, now verified further by Dead Sea Scrolls. King James is a direct translation of T/R Manuscripts, as much as was possible, and still have it readable in English. Those translators showed every case where they added words for clarification, but New World Translation presents scurrilous changes and corruptions as if they are authentic from original manuscripts! King James Version John 3:16, 17, 18 reads:

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on Him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that Light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than Light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the Light, neither cometh to the Light, lest their deeds be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the Light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

JW's 'New World Translation' reads:
16 For God loved the world so much that he gave his only begotten Son, in order that every one exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life through him.
17 For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him.
18 He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 Now this is the basis for judgment, that the light has come into the world but men have loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were wicked.
20 For he that practices vile things hates the light and does not come to the light, in order that his works may not be reproved.
21 But he that does what is true comes to the light, in order that his works may be made manifest as having been worked in harmony with God."

The phrase "...exercising faith..." is a tin-plated phony, with the 'exercising' added so it matches JW teachings, rather than being called to BELIEVE! That isn't in the King James. It's intentionally added, to sell a JW doctrine. And you're betting your SOUL on this rewrite?

A direct word-for-word translation of John 3:
16 "so For God loved the world, so as the Son of Him, the only begotten, He gave, that everyone believing into Him not may perish, but have everlasting life.
17 - "For sent God the Son of Him into the world that He judge the world, but that may be saved the world via Him.
18 - The one believing into Him not is judged; the (one) but not believing already has been judged.
19 - For not he has believed into the name of the only-begotten Son - of God.
20 And is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world; and loved - men more the darkness than the Light; were for evil of them the works. For everyone wickedness practising hates the Light, and not does come to the Light, that not be reproved the works of him.
21 But the (one) doing the truth comes to the Light, that may be revealed of him the works, that in God they are having been worked.

The words in the 3:16 of the JW abomination 'through him' are added, non-existent in manuscripts. What's the big deal? Well, the true concept of God's Word is that we have eternal life IN HIM! NOT 'through Him'. Jesus is the destination of our immortal souls, not the vehicle! "The two shall become one flesh" and the church and its members are the bride of Christ, to be joined together as one WITH HIM. Therefore the added 'through Him' means that eternal life is something other than Him, and that He's just the ticket to give the guy at the gate as you pass through. Whole different concept which, when added to other corruptions in that book of theirs, presents an entirely different picture, all skewed off kilter and out of focus, even to being damnable.

The words 'exercising faith' are not found in manuscripts, and these are words far different from the word and concept for 'Believe' that is found in manuscripts. What's the big deal? 'Exercising faith' is an activity of somehow 'doing faith', as a work of some sort, as doing something unspecified, working towards a goal or expectation or result. That is quite different from 'believing into Him', where our being merges with His Being, as in Believing = Be-Alive-in! Therefore a person may be called a 'Believer', or what, be called an 'exerciser'? A 'faith exerciser'? "Are you a believer?", "Yes, I'm a believer"; or "Do you Believe?", "Yes, I Believe!" where it is something which I am, that which is of my being now, not something I do! "Are you a 'faith exerciser'?", "Yes, I'm a faith exerciser." or "Do you exercise faith?" "Yes, I exercise faith." as "Do you DO THIS?" "Yes, I DO THAT." A Believer has the substance of his Belief into his being, and that into Jesus, as ONE. That is internal, within the soul, and becomes a living part of being of that life. To 'believe' in difficult circumstances may be an exercise of faith; but to exercise faith in difficult circumstances means we have to do something of ourselves somehow. One of Believe is to enter in to Him in His Rest as part of our being. The other is a matter of continual exertion, exercise with never a rest.

Note that in verse 21, instead of the works being wrought in God, and worked within the Entity of God, the JW's say they are only in harmony with God! Rather different, wouldn't you say?? What is 'in harmony with God'? Our 'Believe into Jesus' causes our works to be wrought in Him. Our 'exercise faith in harmony with God' is, what? Working away, exercising away, outside of God, never entering in! Subtle deceits, but it keeps all the good little JW's toiling away for the 'church'.

Thus, those who "exercise faith" (not just believe) in Jesus as the Son of God with endurance, will be granted life without end, either on the earth as "meek ones"(Matt 5:5) or as "kings and priests" as members of God's heavenly kingdom.(Rev 5:9,10)

On the earth, because they were never able to enter in to God; or as kings & priests, still separated from within the Being of God in Christ!

At John 8:51, Jesus told the Jews: "Most truly I say to you, If anyone observes my word, he will never see death at all." He further told Martha just before he resurrected her brother Lazarus: "He that exercises faith in me, even though he dies, will come to life; and everyone that is living and exercises faith in me will never die at all."(John 11:25, 26)

No, He said "Verily, verily, I say unto you, If any man keep my saying, he shall never see death." John 8:51 BIG DIFFERENCE between 'keeping' and 'observing' what he said!

In addition, in speaking to his disciples regarding being "objects of hatred" and possibly being put to death, Jesus clearly said that "by endurance on your part you will acquire your souls (or future life prospects of living forever)."(Luke 21:19) Without loyal endurance, no everlasting life.

Hah! No, He said, "In your patience possess ye your souls." saying that we already possess them; not that we work toward getting them! How do you 'acquire' a soul that is already your very being??? What, are you JW's 'soul-less'??

Hence, gaining everlasting life is contingent upon "exercising faith" with endurance down to the "end."(Matt 24:13) The churches teach that all that is needed to gain God's favor is to "believe on the Lord Jesus". This, however, does not measure up to "exercising faith", meaning that one's faith is loyally active, ' observing Jesus words'.

The TRUE Christian church says that by BELIEVING are you saved! JW perversions want you toiling away! The rest of your diatribe is just more JW corruption of the TRUE Word of God.

How many that calls themselves Christian are following Romans 10:13: "For "everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah will be saved" ?

'Jehovah' a corrupted JW addition, NOT THERE in true manuscripts!

JDFree · Dec 5, 2010

How can you study the Bible if the Bible you study has the text changed to give it new meaning, that isn't in the original manuscripts it's based on? If you think you're Christian, saved forever, based on what your Bible says: where are you if there's hidden or unknown changes in your Bible that could effect your salvation?<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com

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If all of the rest of the Jehovah's Witness Bible is based directly on Textus Receptus or other early Manuscripts, and JW’s doctrines of salvation are based on that JW Bible and what’s written there, meaning that early text's were supposedly entirely dependable for that, and accurate: Then WHY are ALL references to Diety of Jesus, that He is God, REMOVED from JW’s Bible versions? The descriptions contained in original Manuscripts used for JW’s translation were ‘dependable, accurate, genuine’ , except for any description of Jesus as God which is not dependable, accurate, genuine? Words are removed, with other words substituted, in every single instance. Why are countless other areas re-written, with different wording added, giving entirely different meaning than the original Manuscript’s words?

This either says the texts this Bible is based on are NOT accurate in the first place, or that somebody has an agenda. They are either accurate, or not accurate. No other source for the newer changed teaching exists, except pure imagination; even if it is the group think decision from imaginations of several men joined in a commitee and agreed upon. Should we base our salvation, eternal life, our very soul's destiny on other men's imaginations, men actually unknown to us? Who inspired them? What verifies the TRUTH of what they say with their countless changes, other than an agreement between them, that they are right, and God is not?

If early/original texts are depended upon to give us God's Word literally spoken to men, and that is accepted as God's Word, and the rest of the JW Bible is firmly based on that: then by what authority and for what reason are those same words in the same texts in which God speaks changed, by JW Elders & Commitees? Authority over God? Who inspired them?

We can easily & quickly see the changes are not based on a ‘better interpretation’ or ‘better understanding’ of original words, that is clear. The added words have entirely different meanings, and were never in original manuscripts, and the new meanings cannot even be tortured out of the original text's words. Instead they are changes of whole new meaning of phrases or words, in God's Word. The major question regarding the changes is: On WHAT are the changes based for re-writing with new JW words & JW meanings? What reliable source? More accurate early manuscripts? Some new archaeological discovery of manuscripts? Any other early manuscripts, that are widely verified, outside the church, as genuine for accuracy?

How about if your father sent you a long letter telling all about intimate family details, with a large explanation of your entire family geneology, plus intricate details on the inheritance he’s leaving you, and how to obtain it after he’s gone, plus of course a deep and moving message of the love he has for you. Your father sends it to your church for you to pick up there. But the church opens it, reads it and decides they don’t really like what it says. So they re-write it, change all the meanings throughout, make changes in the family history, change the details about your inheritance, and change the method by which you would have received it. Then they give it to you and say it’s the exact letter your father wrote to you! Well, that’s what has been done with the long letter in the Bible from Father God, about your family, your inheritance and how to obtain it!

A well known saying, "Follow the money!" refers to situations where we suspect crime or fraud. Follow where the money goes & you’ll find the perpetrators, every single time! So, by any chance: Do some of the changes in meanings in the JW Bible just happen to fit with a JW doctrine that somehow eventually transfers money from your pocket to the church treasury?

As with money: control, the end objective of other frauds. Do the new meanings somehow give the JW church new control over your life, including your money, your family, or your 'Required Works' for the church, which they somehow profit from? Do they make you a servant of their church, instead of a servant of God?

Should one build their understanding of a Salvation Doctrine based on what the Bible, in the very best and most genuine early Manuscripts like Textus Receptus truly says; or should they build their Bible understanding on what a church doctrine says? Does the Bible give the doctrine, or does the doctrine give the Bible in the JW church? How can you justify changing the Bible to suit a doctrine, if the verified early texts of Scripture as the Word of God is all we have to base our understanding of God's plan for Salvation on? Who do we stand before in the Final Judgment: God in Jesus Christ, or the <?xml:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comffice:smarttags" /><st1lace w:st="on"><st1laceType w:st="on">church</st1laceType> of <st1laceName w:st="on">Jehovah</st1laceName></st1lace>’s Witnesses?

Should one really rest assured if their only salvation from the fires of hell forever is based on the opinions and imaginations of other men, instead of basing it firmly upon God's Word? Do you honestly want to bet your eternal life and soul's destiny on the opinions of some JW elders? What is their source for changes, and what is their authority?

Isaiah 14:9-15
"Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
All they speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? Art thou become like unto us?
Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
How art thou fallen, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
I will ascend above the heights of the clouds, I will be like the Most High.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit."

Maybe you JW's ought to look closely, very closely to see who said, "I will..." to change the meanings of God's Word in your 'bible': to ascend above God’s Word and take authority over God's own Word & Will, to exalt their earthly throne above the stars of God, to sit upon the mount of the congregation as lord over it, ascending above the clouds, saying, "I will be like the Most High!"

"Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit..."

hischildaswell · Jan 21, 2011

John 2:24 But Jesus did not commit himself unto them, because he knew all [men],
Jesus must make a commitment to us to seal the deal, if our heart is not right is it just vain words that pave the road to perdition

RJ · Jan 22, 2011

rojoloco said:
The problem with your doctrinal stance is that it makes light of Eternal Life. Your belief takes something very real and already attained and shifts it to something attainable. Scripture tells us 2 very distinct things about Eternal Life.

1) It is eternal
2) It is already obtained

If eternal life is already in our possession, there is no way to make it temporary. Eternal life is not just something we hold onto and stick in our pocket. It is a regeneration from the inside out that encompasses our very being. It is a rebirthing in Christ. How can one die to self, then die to Christ, only to resurrect their old self again? No man can resurrect himself. Christ was the only one. If your old self is dead and Christ has no intentions of raising it up again, what exactly do you believe one is reborn into should they "fall away?" There is no answer to this because it is a loaded question. The true answer is that those who have been regenerated and given eternal life can never fall away. If they do fall away, it was because they were only deceived and never truly had it. Regeneration had never taken place. The only possible way for a man to be rebirthed into sin is if he never died to it to begin with.

Show me where it speaks of free will in Scripture. I can guarantee you it doesn't. The closest you will be able to come is showing me verses where it says to make a choice. If this is your plan of action, you will probably say how God would never tell us to make a choice if it were impossible for us to make it. However, I will surely come back with verses commanding you to follow EVERY single one of the 10 commandments. We both know it is impossible to accomplish this (hence, the need for a Savior) but it does not change the fact that we are commanded by God to do it. This alone will negate the initial argument. Now you will be left with nothing to stand on but your own preconceived ideas of free will which, in essence, do not ever exist.

Please don't think I am saying we are all robots. This is not the case! I recommend studying up on the doctrines of monergism and compatibilism. I would post some great study links but links are not allowed on here.

The bigger question is, "Is it possible for man to choose to repent if he is totally depraved?"

It is true that God never forced anyone to choose Him. However, He also never forced anyone to not choose Him. It is all left to the desires of our heart. However, the desires of our heart are all bound by our nature. We never choose that which we do not desire and we never desire that which is against our nature. For the unregenerate man, God is 180 degrees out of sync with human nature. Scripture declares us to be at war with God, hating the Light, hiding from the Light, etc. If this is our nature, we will never choose God because our nature binds us to reject Him. Only the Holy Spirit can change this and it is through regeneration. Only upon regeneration does one finally scream for Christ because his new nature yearns for Him. There is a total choice but the choice is bound to the desires which are bound to the nature. There is no arm twisting or forcing but it is still entirely God from start to finish. He does not force man but He does not rely on man either. Again, this is where I recommend you study the doctrine of compatibilism.

I'm not saying whether you are right or wrong (although there are sketchy parts to your quote) but I am asking you to present the Scripture verse that states this doctrine. There is nowhere in Scripture that speaks of God relinquishing control except for the Son coming in the form of man. There are places that speak of God choosing to not destroy things but never a place that says God relinquishes control.

Again, this is only partially true. I would urge caution against ever saying you "let" God do anything. That being said, it is true that we choose things at all times. However, that choice has nothing to do with controlling God in anything. His Will Be Done! That is not dependent upon man's interaction or cooperation.

I'm glad you chose to use the word "will" above as it fits what I have already written. Again, the Will is bound by the desires of our nature. We never choose that which we do not desire. Therefore, how will a man "choose" to hand over his Will to God when his nature and desires compel him to do the exact opposite?

They were saved through their faith but they were not sanctified in the heavenly sense. They could not enter Heaven without the Son. Upon death, OT saints would go to Paradise a.k.a. Abraham's Bosom. It was after the death of Christ that he went and declared his truth to the spirits in prison (demons and dead unbelievers) and then relocated Paradise to heaven upon his resurrection.

This is exactly the case! We do have the choice. That being said, the unregenerate man will not make the correct choice exactly because of his heart of hearts. He will always fall flat on his face when left to his own desires, choices, and nature. It is only after the Father calls, the Son makes possible, and the Spirit makes actual can a man ever choose God. And you know what? He always will choose God once this has occurred! God goes from being the enemy to being irresistible. He takes blind men and makes them see again. He takes dead men and brings them to eternal life. Soli Deo Gloria!

And this further tells me you do not properly understand the doctrines of justification, sanctification, glorification, propitiation, or adoption.

This is the unfortunate belief of Hyper-Calvinism. Calvinism (and any other believing in Eternal Security) will tell you that one cannot live a life characterized by sin yet still be saved. We all sin but Christians are not defined by it. We are defined by Christ. We are secure in Christ. You say you believe in Eternal Security but also believe that we can lose it. These 2 beliefs contradict each other. Based on what I have heard, you not only reject (and rightly so) Hyper-Calvinism but you also (wrongly so) reject Eternal Security in lieu of the Arminian stance.

This is correct.

Then you are compelled to admit he never says we can either. Adding things to Scripture can go both ways. I condemn eisegesis but fully suppoert exegesis. With eisegesis, one can add anything at any time. "See, it never actually says "x", so ______ must be true." Most times, the blank line is a preconceived unbiblical idea that is only supported by a lack of Scripture and not Scripture itself.

Again, this would be the erroneous Hyper-Calvinist view and not the actual Calvinist view.

Look at the parable of the seed and the sower. The 3rd seed thought he was a believer until he was smothered by the world. People deceive themselves all the time. Belief is not the same as faith. Even the demons believe and shudder. The person in question either never had faith to begin with or, if he did have faith, will come back into the fold at some point after Christ sets out to bring him back. My personal testimony is of the latter.

Rojo said:
If eternal life is already in our possession, there is no way to make it temporary. Eternal life is not just something we hold onto and stick in our pocket. It is a regeneration from the inside out that encompasses our very being. It is a rebirthing in Christ. How can one die to self, then die to Christ, only to resurrect their old self again? No man can resurrect himself. Christ was the only one. If your old self is dead and Christ has no intentions of raising it up again, what exactly do you believe one is reborn into should they "fall away?" There is no answer to this because it is a loaded question. The true answer is that those who have been regenerated and given eternal life can never fall away. If they do fall away, it was because they were only deceived and never truly had it. Regeneration had never taken place. The only possible way for a man to be rebirthed into sin is if he never died to it to begin with. Absolutely, nothing can be more true:

Hebrews 6:4 talks about this very thing. Paul is talking to Believers about unbelievers. In this case, he is talking about traitors who had proclaimed their Christianity, just to eventually turn around and go back to the Temple and practice sacrifices. Paul is telling the "True Believers" to hold on, that their salvation was secure.
I personally think that though Paul never actually put it in these terms, this was actually the original "once saved always saved". Paul is telling the believer that it is essentially impossible to :Fall Away", that these non-believers, that he was referring to didn't fall away from anything....how can you "Fall Away" from a place that you have never been....these non-believers were never saved in the first place! Amen!?

Actually, well before Paul, Judas was a great example of this. He knew Jesus, up close and personal, he had witnessed and taste the goodness of him, but in the end, he never really and truly believed and turned away died in his sin. This is also the opposite of the thief on the cross next to Jesus, because of his faith, he is with Christ now!

Once you are "Born Again", there is no such thing as being un-born, Amen?!

yort · Jan 24, 2011

Hey now-

Just read part of your post.Very widely debated subject but to know end I so believe.Those that think they can lose this are generally ones that are not sure of who they are,due to the fact they no not who's they are. There will surely be those that fall from the faith-As it is most of the time when a person only knows of the knowledge of the Kingdom of Heaven and not the "Creator"- "Whosoever drinks shall never thirst again"- VERY POPULAR FOR THIS SUBJECT-but most of the time these that believe that they can fall away-Well it seems as though they haven't really swallowed the water-perhaps wet their lips or just found it to be-not what they thought it was-therefor mocking God and spitting onto the pavement-you had this to say about why [HIGH-LIGHT]you[/HIGH-LIGHT]thought a person could possibly lose their salvation

" it is [HIGH-LIGHT]my own [/HIGH-LIGHT]personal opinion that a Christian can lose their salvation after having already been saved. However,[HIGH-LIGHT] I do believe [/HIGH-LIGHT]that you really have to get into some of the heavier type sins before this will actually happen."

Explain this to me here-[HIGH-LIGHT]into some of the heavier type sins [/HIGH-LIGHT]Sin is Sin is Sin-This would prehaps be a good study----------WHAT IS SIN

RJ · Jan 24, 2011

yort said:
Hey now-

Just read part of your post.Very widely debated subject but to know end I so believe.Those that think they can lose this are generally ones that are not sure of who they are,due to the fact they no not who's they are. There will surely be those that fall from the faith-As it is most of the time when a person only knows of the knowledge of the Kingdom of Heaven and not the "Creator"- "Whosoever drinks shall never thirst again"- VERY POPULAR FOR THIS SUBJECT-but most of the time these that believe that they can fall away-Well it seems as though they haven't really swallowed the water-perhaps wet their lips or just found it to be-not what they thought it was-therefor mocking God and spitting onto the pavement-you had this to say about why [HIGH-LIGHT]you[/HIGH-LIGHT]thought a person could possibly lose their salvation

" it is [HIGH-LIGHT]my own [/HIGH-LIGHT]personal opinion that a Christian can lose their salvation after having already been saved. However,[HIGH-LIGHT] I do believe [/HIGH-LIGHT]that you really have to get into some of the heavier type sins before this will actually happen."

Explain this to me here-[HIGH-LIGHT]into some of the heavier type sins [/HIGH-LIGHT]Sin is Sin is Sin-This would prehaps be a good study----------WHAT IS SIN

You can't fall away from a place that you have never been. Christians by name only and not by faith "Fall Away" , as they call it, all the time. If you are truly a "Born Again" Christian, this is not Biblical to then return to Apostasy.

Judas was a good example of this. He "Tasted " Jesus up close and personal, had seen his miracles and shared his love, but in the end, he revealed that he never really believe in Jesus at all! So, he is an example of never being saved in the first place!

David777 · Jan 25, 2011

Strange distinction.

Yes, "Seeker of Jesus" your quote from the book of Hebrews cleary states that it is possible for a Christian to lose their salvation. There is really no other way to interpret that passage.

Why, do some believe there are two types of Christians: "True Christians" and "Christians". Only the true Christians are saved the other Christians will not be saved. I don't remember ever reading about these two classes in the Bible.

Try reading this verse Hebrews 3:13
But, encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called "Today," so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin.

How do you read this verse? Encourage each other daily! Why?
So that no one can be hardened by the "deceitfulness of sin".
This is a very strong demand!

I cannot see how a Christian can play with sin and escape being deceived. A Christian must seperate themselves from thier sinful habits through Jesus Christ. How many Christians do you know who pursued thier careers to the detriment of there Christian life. Do they return to Christ, rarely, why? Decietfulness of sin!

Will sin seperate us from the Love of God. Of course it will, you just read the verse. There is no distinction between Christians. God has no favourites. This we know. Do not be deceived. If you continue to sin you will die.

The Bible is overflowing in warnings about sin. God is not mocked! Rather, if we keep our eyes on Jesus, Jesus will not let us be deceived.

rojoloco · Jan 25, 2011

David777 said:
Yes, "Seeker of Jesus" your quote from the book of Hebrews cleary states that it is possible for a Christian to lose their salvation. There is really no other way to interpret that passage.

Just as there is no other way to interpret Philippians 1:6:

Philippians 1:6 said:
For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus.

...unless you believe that God is not involved in our salvation. Is this what you are telling me?

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