Can A Christian Lose Their Salvation?

[MightyAngel1]

I believe that there is no greater Authority and never has been or ever will be in all of creation on the Word of God than God himself speaking to me in His Word and by His Word: He being all sufficient in all things to open my eyes, heart, mind and understanding of that Good Word he would impart to me. Within that I was and am continually in prayer that God, and God alone as He chooses to act, would reveal all that He has hidden in plain sight for me to discover in His Perfect Word.
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>"This is exactly the case! We do have the choice. That being said, the unregenerate man will not make the correct choice exactly because of his heart of hearts. He will always fall flat on his face when left to his own desires, choices, and nature. It is only after the Father calls, the Son makes possible, and the Spirit makes actual can a man ever choose God. And you know what? He always will choose God once this has occurred! God goes from being the enemy to being irresistible. He takes blind men and makes them see again. He takes dead men and brings them to eternal life. Soli Deo Gloria!

Howdy JDFREE!

I wanted to respond to this second paragraph. I assume this writing belongs to rojoloco?

I wanted to respond to this writing here...

He will always fall flat on his face when left to his own desires, choices, and nature. It is only after the Father calls, the Son makes possible, and the Spirit makes actual can a man ever choose God."EOQ

Man with his inherited sin nature from Adam's fall in the garden will always make bad choices leading to a life continuing to live and pursue a lifestyle of sin. Nobody makes man live in sin. Man chooses to live in sin.

However, Man has a void in his life that only God can fill. Since God loves His creation we know as mankind, and God is long suffering, 2 Peter 3:9, God gives to every man something very important that he cannot live without.

God gives to every man a measure of faith. See Romans 12:3. Why does God do this? God gives to every man a measure of faith to believe in His Only Son, Jesus Christ. This is the purpose God gives to every man a measure of faith.

God has also given to every man something else as well. God has also given mankind freewill. So, Man with the measure of faith from God and his freewill has the choice now to receive Jesus Christ or not after hearing the Gospel.

If after hearing the Saving Gospel of Jesus Christ, A man chooses to not accept the Gift of Salvation provided by Jesus Christ, then, God says that this man is condemned for not believing on His Only Son, Jesus Christ. John 3:18b.

Suffice it to say, God's Election is conditional. The Condition of God's Election is a person's choice to follow Jesus Christ. Once a person chooses to follow Jesus Christ, then, this person becomes a member of one of the following Seeds in the Seed Covenant of Abraham in the New Testament...

1) The Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the heaven.
2) The Seed of Abraham multiplied as the stars of the heaven.

If a man, woman, or child is Jewish who choose to follow Jesus Christ as Messiah, They are called into the Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the heaven. Genesis 21:12, Romans 9:7, and Hebrews 11:18. They become Saints.

If a man, woman, or child is Gentile who choose to follow Jesus Christ, they are called into the Seed of Abraham multiplied as the stars of the heaven. Romans 10:9-10, Acts 15:14, and Ephesians 2:8-9. They become Christian.

Now, This part of the writing...

It is only after the Father calls, the Son makes possible, and the Spirit makes actual can a man ever choose God. And you know what? He always will choose God once this has occurred!

You say..."He always will choose God once this occurred!"

No, Man will not always choose God. Because, Once God makes the offer of Salvation and this offer is rejected, then, God sends a strong delusion so that everyone who rejects Salvation will believe a lie. 2 Thessalonians 2:11.

Now, Why does God do this? Because they received not the love of the Truth, that they might be saved. 2 Thessalonians 2:10b.

The Bottom line is simply this. A person has a freewill to choose to Love the Truth or Choose to not love the Truth. Once a person makes their choice to reject the Love of the Truth, God will turn them over to a reprobate mind for a Christian, see Romans 1:28, and or an apostate, see Hebrews 4:6, if they are a Saint.

Now, If a person does not Accept Jesus Christ and chooses to not love the Truth, They are condemned to the Lake of Fire where they shall drink of the cup of God's wrath and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever. John 3:18b, Matthew 25:46a, Revelation 14:10-11, and Revelation 20:11-15.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike

 

[JDFree]

Howdy JDFREE!

I am not sure who said this above, but, I would like to show in Scripture where God says the Jewish People of the Old Testament, that is the Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth, do have free will. God says that they do 2x in the Old Testament under Mosaic Law.

Leviticus 22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a a burnt offering.

Numbers 15:3 And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the heard, or of the flock.

According to the evidence presented in Scripture under the Law of Moses, God declares that the Children of Israel in the Wilderness who are the Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth, DO HAVE FREEWILL.

Well, If the Children of Israel under the Law of Moses have FREEWILL, Then, The Seed of Abraham multiplied as the stars of the heaven and the Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the heaven, also have FREEWILL in the New Testament under Grace.

Because, God is not a respecter of persons and God does not change.
God Bless You!
Dr. Mike

Hah, couldn't agree with you more on that one, brother! Because of Rojolocos extremely long diatribe I had to edit out much, and all the ones with the > were quoting his statements. So, that which you quoted came from him because my post advocating free will is what pushed him over the top.

Thank you, and may the Lord's blessing overflow you like a flood!
JDFree

 

[MightyAngel1]

Hah, couldn't agree with you more on that one, brother! Because of Rojolocos extremely long diatribe I had to edit out much, and all the ones with the > were quoting his statements. So, that which you quoted came from him because my post advocating free will is what pushed him over the top.

Thank you, and may the Lord's blessing overflow you like a flood!
JDFree

Howdy JDFree!

Well, Thank you. I wanted to show you something here. You might find this helpful in the future. I like graphs. Graphs are so powerful that the information just simply cannot be ignored. I will show you what I am talking about.

There is Calvinism and there is God! Calvinism teaches man has no freewill. God says that Man does have freewill. So, The Graph looks like this...

Calvinism says----------------------God says
---Man has--------------------------Man has
--No Freewill------------------------Freewill

The question is simply this...Who is a Christian going to believe? Calvinism? Or, God?

For me, with all due respect and with the Love of Jesus Christ, This graph is really a No Brainer. God never lies. Numbers 23:19.

And, Calvinism? Well, Even Polemic Reformers like John Calvin were not perfect. They made mistakes in their Scripture interpretation. Costly ones. Why? Many Christians today believe that they do not have free will though God says that they do.

Those Christians who believe that they do not have freewill have made their freewill choice. And, Their freewill Choice has been recorded in Heaven for God to judge them on their Judgment day. Their freewill choice is to believe Calvinism in that they do not have freewill. Fascinating isn't!

Thank you for your Blessing. God Bless You richly as well!

Dr. Mike

 

[rojoloco]

MightyAngel1, I will have to reply to your posts (as well as other people) when I have a bit more time. I just wanted to point out that what you are describing is not Calvinism. Your "understanding" of Calvinism and your "explanation" are fatally flawed. To disagree with Calvinism is one thing but to explain it away with preconceived (and false) ideas while not even understanding what it is really saying is a completely different beast. First of all, I never said we didn't have free will. I said I believe we have free will in the compatibilist sense but it is bound by our nature. I thought this was evident in my numerous requests for JDFree to research the doctrine of compatibilism.

The unregenerate man is free to choose God. The problem is that he never will choose God. He cannot choose God because he cannot understand the things of God and is deeply ingrained to hate the Light. Only the regenerate man can understand the things of God. The Freedom of the Will by Jonathan Edwards and The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther are 2 of the most important books on the will that I could recommend to anyone.

 

[Tusk Barnes]

The unregenerate man is free to choose God. The problem is that he never will choose God. He cannot choose God because he cannot understand the things of God and is deeply ingrained to hate the Light. Only the regenerate man can understand the things of God. The Freedom of the Will by Jonathan Edwards and The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther are 2 of the most important books on the will that I could recommend to anyone.

I'm looking forward to reading these. A friend of mine recommended Edwards just last weekend. Can't wait to check them out.

Quick question, though. How are we built incapable of choosing Him and punished for it? And does it strike you as peculiar that most of those who hold to Calvinism also believe that they are the blessed elect? I mean, I've yet to meet a Calvinist who also thought God hadn't found him. Don't get me wrong, there might be some out there, but they're likely a striking minority.

 

[MightyAngel1]

MightyAngel1, I will have to reply to your posts (as well as other people) when I have a bit more time.

Howdy rojoloco!

I am a very patient man.

RL--I just wanted to point out that what you are describing is not Calvinism. Your "understanding" of Calvinism and your "explanation" are fatally flawed.

That is your opinion. I do not share that opinion with you.

RL--To disagree with Calvinism is one thing but to explain it away with preconceived (and false) ideas while not even understanding what it is really saying is a completely different beast.

Not according to God.

RL--First of all, I never said we didn't have free will.

And, You cannot ever say that either because God says that you do.

RL--I said I believe we have free will in the compatibilist sense but it is bound by our nature.

Well, God has never said that. The Compatibilist sense is man's attempt to understand a very simple Concept of God's Nature which man was made in the image of. See Genesis 1:26. And, Man's attempt here fails miserably.

RL--I thought this was evident in my numerous requests for JDFree to research the doctrine of compatibilism.

The Doctrine of Compatibilism comes from the teaching of Hard Determinism which teaches that nothing is free. Therefore, The bottom line of Hard Determinism is that Human actions are not free which ultimately leads to the belief that human beings have no freewill.

Therefore, Hard Determinism is a concept of Man that stands contrary to the Holy Word of God when applied to Human beings created in the Image and Likeness of God.

RL--The unregenerate man is free to choose God. The problem is that he never will choose God.

On your second point is where you are sadly mistaken. In the Bible, God shows us that people chose Jesus Christ and they are not condemned. Acts 2:41 is a very good example in the early Church in Jerusalem who practiced New Testament Judaism.

These Jewish people in Acts 2:37 even asks this question. After being pricked in their hearts, They asked...What shall we do?

This question is based on Faith given by God, see Romans 12:3, and freewill also given by God. And, about 3000 souls were added to the Jerusalem Church that day.

And, God shows us people who do not choose Christ and do not receive the love of the Truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:10b and Revelation 14:10-11.

RL--He cannot choose God because he cannot understand the things of God and is deeply ingrained to hate the Light.

If what you say is true, then the following must also be true. A baby is born. But, a Baby cannot understand the things of an Adult. And, Is therefore deeply ingrained to hate becoming an adult.

This is why millions of Christian today feed on the milk of the Word of God because they do not want to graduate to Adult food in the Word of God. And, Why Calvinism is so easily spread around in the Christian ranks.

But, as we all know, short of death, babies will grow and mature into an Adult. Thereby disproving what you claim in your quote above because many babies have been born and once they have reached an age of understanding, Choose Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

RL--Only the regenerate man can understand the things of God.

Haha. The Regenerate man has come up with teachings such as Calvinism, Post Tribulation Rapture Doctrine, Mid Tribulation Rapture Doctrine, Pre-Wrath Rapture Doctrine, No Hell Doctrine, and Preterism to just name a few.

All of these Doctrines listed above have some Bible Truth tucked away in them. But, The foundation of each Doctrine above is based on error and misinterpretation of Scripture. And, in some cases, a total rejection of what God has Commanded in His Law.

And, All of these Christians claim to understand the Holy Word of God. Yet, What they do is interpret Scripture using the Allegorical Method of Scripture Interpretation.

An Invention of a Man by the name of Origen who died in the 2nd Century who was banned from the Christian Church and died in disgrace for teaching this Doctrine of Scripture Interpretation. Yet, Many Christians use this method of Scripture Interpretation in the Church today.

And, Calvinism is an invention of a polemic man, and a humanist lawyer, by the name of John Calvin.

RL--The Freedom of the Will by Jonathan Edwards and The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther are 2 of the most important books on the will that I could recommend to anyone.

I just recommend the Bible. God's Holy Word.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike

 

[allforihs]

Calvinism says----------------------God says
---Man has--------------------------Man has
--No Freewill------------------------Freewill

The question is simply this...Who is a Christian going to believe? Calvinism? Or, God?

For me, with all due respect and with the Love of Jesus Christ, This graph is really a No Brainer. God never lies. Numbers 23:19...

Those Christians who believe that they do not have freewill have made their freewill choice. And, Their freewill Choice has been recorded in Heaven for God to judge them on their Judgment day.

Both sides agree that God does not lie. As for your graph, I could just as easily produce this graph:

Arminius says----------------------God says
---Man has--------------------------Man has
----Freewill [to choose salvation]----no Freewill

Why do you add the comment about judgement day? Even if Calvinism is wrong, is it a sin to error in good faith? Is being wrong on this detail an unforgivable sin? Are you free to choose to believe Calvinism?

 

[MightyAngel1]

Both sides agree that God does not lie.

Howdy allforihs!

Well, That is very good both sides agree that God does not lie.

allforihs--As for your graph, I could just as easily produce this graph:

Arminius says----------------------God says
---Man has--------------------------Man has
----Freewill [to choose salvation]----no Freewill

Well, You can draw this graph, yes, but, Your graph is half wrong. Because, God does say that man has freewill.

allforihs--Why do you add the comment about judgement day?

Well, When we stand before Jesus Christ, He will judge us for everything that we have thought, said, or did. We will not be judged for sin. However, We will be judged for our works by our thoughts, speech, and deeds.

See 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. And, Any Work that is found to be contrary to the Holy Word of God and His Holy, Perfect Law, we will suffer loss. We will not gain a reward.

allforihs--Even if Calvinism is wrong, is it a sin to error in good faith?

Yes, It is a sin to error in good faith. An error in good faith is falling short of the Glory of God which is a sin.

This is why we are commanded to study the Bible to show ourselves approved unto God, a workmen that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15.

allforihs--Is being wrong on this detail an unforgivable sin?

In my honest opinion, Being wrong on this detail is not an unforgivable sin.

allforihs--Are you free to choose to believe Calvinism?

Sure, You can believe Calvinism if you want. But, Why? When You have the Holy Word of God, why believe in anything else? What purpose would it serve to believe something contrary to God's Holy Word? Wouldn't you want to receive a reward instead of suffering a loss on your Judgment day?

I desire to receive a reward from the Lord Jesus Christ. I do not desire to suffer a loss. That is why I study the Holy Word of God.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike

 

[Hekuran]

People on both sides of this debate should recognise that there are people who disagree with them that take the teaching of scripture seriously. It is unhelpful, for example, to say that there is a choice to be made between Calvinism and the Word of God.

Most Calvinists honour the Word of God, and believe that Calvinism offers the best interpretation of the various Biblical texts that deal with election, predestination, free will and security of salvation.

Those who reject Calvinism also honour scripture and believe their interpretation is the most consistent with the Bible.

For myself, I have spent a large part of my life reading the Bible and exploring what it teaches, yet as I grow, I find that my ideas and understanding changes. I am sure that in a few years time my interpretation of the Bible will have changed in some way. In a sense that is a good thing, because it will mean that I have grown in some way.

With ideas that are as subtle as these, it is not good to speak from entrenched positions, and to write caricatures of differing views.

We all have things to learn from each other - even those we disagree with - but this cannot happen if our dogma prevents us from hearing each other.

 

[JDFree]

Howdy allforihs!

Well, That is very good both sides agree that God does not lie.

Well, You can draw this graph, yes, but, Your graph is half wrong. Because, God does say that man has freewill.

Well, When we stand before Jesus Christ, He will judge us for everything that we have thought, said, or did. We will not be judged for sin. However, We will be judged for our works by our thoughts, speech, and deeds.

See 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. And, Any Work that is found to be contrary to the Holy Word of God and His Holy, Perfect Law, we will suffer loss. We will not gain a reward.

Yes, It is a sin to error in good faith. An error in good faith is falling short of the Glory of God which is a sin.

This is why we are commanded to study the Bible to show ourselves approved unto God, a workmen that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of Truth. 2 Timothy 2:15.

In my honest opinion, Being wrong on this detail is not an unforgivable sin.

Sure, You can believe Calvinism if you want. But, Why? When You have the Holy Word of God, why believe in anything else? What purpose would it serve to believe something contrary to God's Holy Word? Wouldn't you want to receive a reward instead of suffering a loss on your Judgment day?

I desire to receive a reward from the Lord Jesus Christ. I do not desire to suffer a loss. That is why I study the Holy Word of God.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike

Couldn't agree more!

Just so you understand clearly, that one reply I made to Rojoloco's diatribe had his comments with a > mark, and my replies with a *** mark, trying to sort it out. Of course I ignored the next two harangues.

One major problem I have with the Eternal Security thing is that so many have used it as a license to sin. That was one of the things that caused the popularity of the belief in the first place! "What, you mean I can't lose my heavenly reward NO MATTER WHAT I DO?!!" GREAT!" That's the primary part of most people's interpretation of it, that sin is no longer an offense before God, or else it's no big deal.

I spent 1,000's of hours studying the Word of God, like 14-18 hours daily, 7 days a week for 8 years, then about 12 hours daily, 7 days a week for 4 more years, and know for a fact & without doubt: Man has a Free Will! And Eternal Security only extends to being Secure in God's side of the equation, that nothing is mightier than Him, to steal us from His grasp. That is, except one thing: Man himself! Man's side is still plenty shaky within sin, that we may certainly lose our heavenly reward, all of it, and be cast out to be burned!

I'm in process of noting all examples in NT Scripture, specially the words of Jesus, that prove Eternal Security is a very scary thing to place all your bets on. He warns continuously of those cast out, to be burned, and He's talking intimately in warning to His disciples, not the crowds! The rest of the books there buttress the argument: 'BE CAREFUL' is what is found repeatedly!

Free Will is clearly revealed even without significant study. How can we NOT have Free Will, if we are WARNED to not do the wrong thing?? How can I do a wrong thing if I don't have a Free Will brain & being? Why warn me about things I cannot do anyway, if I don't have Free Will? It's really very elementary to even the casual observer, man has Free Will.

Folks misunderstand Paul, in his sermon to Romans, in that he was talking about being free from the law of sacrifice for sin and the 647 Ordinances, NOT of being free from penalty for sin under Christ. Just as you described, it will still cost us dearly for our sins of thought, word & deed. If it was 'just' a 75 to 100 year lifetime's period of loss, that would be bad enough. But, to think of having lost immeasurably, beyond comprehension, in rewards for TRILLIONS of years??!!

To think that for trillions upon trillions of years I might labor daily, afar & below the Holy Mount on High, locked out of the glorious Heavenly City that descends, losing out forever on the Perfection of Glory of God in Christ that could have been mine in His Presence! No way! I'm toeing the mark and give it all my best to stand firm in the things of Jesus and in His commands to me, that I might be as close to Him as possible for all of eternity!!

 

[JDFree]

Howdy JDFREE!

I am not sure who said this above, but, I would like to show in Scripture where God says the Jewish People of the Old Testament, that is the Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth, do have free will. God says that they do 2x in the Old Testament under Mosaic Law.

Leviticus 22:18 Speak unto Aaron, and to his sons, and unto all the children of Israel, and say unto them, Whatsoever he be of the house of Israel, or of the strangers in Israel, that will offer his oblation for all his vows, and for all his freewill offerings, which they will offer unto the LORD for a a burnt offering.

Numbers 15:3 And will make an offering by fire unto the LORD, a burnt offering, or a sacrifice in performing a vow, or in a freewill offering, or in your solemn feasts to make a sweet savour unto the LORD, of the heard, or of the flock.

According to the evidence presented in Scripture under the Law of Moses, God declares that the Children of Israel in the Wilderness who are the Seed of Jacob multiplied as the dust of the earth, DO HAVE FREEWILL.

Well, If the Children of Israel under the Law of Moses have FREEWILL, Then, The Seed of Abraham multiplied as the stars of the heaven and the Seed of Isaac multiplied as the stars of the heaven, also have FREEWILL in the New Testament under Grace.

Because, God is not a respecter of persons and God does not change.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike

Hi Dr. Mike!

Those were Rojoloco's words, not mine!

I agree with you completely! Exactly correct!
JDFree

 

[JDFree]

Howdy Rojoloco!

You used to believe that you have freewill? You proudly declare yourself to be a 5 point Calvinist? John Calvin's teachings began with Scripture and end with Scripture, and, they began with God and they end with God?

Well, God says that you do have freewill. God said in the Old Testament that the Children of Israel under the Law of Moses had freewill. And, God is no respecter of persons and God does not change.

Now, If John Calvin teaches you that you do not have freewill, I can assure you by the evidence of Scripture and by God's own declaration that John Calvin did not get this teaching from God.

John Calvin got this teaching from something else. His own mind that was short of understanding God's Holy Word and short of understanding God's own declaration in Scripture.

I firmly believe that John Calvin saw God's own declaration of the Children of Israel having freewill under the Law of Moses, but, He just could not bring himself to believe it.

So, John Calvin decided to develop his own teaching. And, He did and millions of Christians today believe that they do not have freewill. And, These Christians who hold to Calvinism frown upon those Christians who know that they do have freewill.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike

Thank you, Dr. Mike, precisely correct! A most exellent explanation....

JDFree

 

[JDFree]

Howdy rojoloco!

I am a very patient man.

That is your opinion. I do not share that opinion with you.

Not according to God.

And, You cannot ever say that either because God says that you do.

Well, God has never said that. The Compatibilist sense is man's attempt to understand a very simple Concept of God's Nature which man was made in the image of. See Genesis 1:26. And, Man's attempt here fails miserably.

The Doctrine of Compatibilism comes from the teaching of Hard Determinism which teaches that nothing is free. Therefore, The bottom line of Hard Determinism is that Human actions are not free which ultimately leads to the belief that human beings have no freewill.

Therefore, Hard Determinism is a concept of Man that stands contrary to the Holy Word of God when applied to Human beings created in the Image and Likeness of God.

On your second point is where you are sadly mistaken. In the Bible, God shows us that people chose Jesus Christ and they are not condemned. Acts 2:41 is a very good example in the early Church in Jerusalem who practiced New Testament Judaism.

These Jewish people in Acts 2:37 even asks this question. After being pricked in their hearts, They asked...What shall we do?

This question is based on Faith given by God, see Romans 12:3, and freewill also given by God. And, about 3000 souls were added to the Jerusalem Church that day.

And, God shows us people who do not choose Christ and do not receive the love of the Truth. 2 Thessalonians 2:10b and Revelation 14:10-11.

If what you say is true, then the following must also be true. A baby is born. But, a Baby cannot understand the things of an Adult. And, Is therefore deeply ingrained to hate becoming an adult.

This is why millions of Christian today feed on the milk of the Word of God because they do not want to graduate to Adult food in the Word of God. And, Why Calvinism is so easily spread around in the Christian ranks.

But, as we all know, short of death, babies will grow and mature into an Adult. Thereby disproving what you claim in your quote above because many babies have been born and once they have reached an age of understanding, Choose Jesus Christ as their Saviour.

Haha. The Regenerate man has come up with teachings such as Calvinism, Post Tribulation Rapture Doctrine, Mid Tribulation Rapture Doctrine, Pre-Wrath Rapture Doctrine, No Hell Doctrine, and Preterism to just name a few.

All of these Doctrines listed above have some Bible Truth tucked away in them. But, The foundation of each Doctrine above is based on error and misinterpretation of Scripture. And, in some cases, a total rejection of what God has Commanded in His Law.

And, All of these Christians claim to understand the Holy Word of God. Yet, What they do is interpret Scripture using the Allegorical Method of Scripture Interpretation.

An Invention of a Man by the name of Origen who died in the 2nd Century who was banned from the Christian Church and died in disgrace for teaching this Doctrine of Scripture Interpretation. Yet, Many Christians use this method of Scripture Interpretation in the Church today.

And, Calvinism is an invention of a polemic man, and a humanist lawyer, by the name of John Calvin.

I just recommend the Bible. God's Holy Word.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike

THANKS Dr. Mike! Downright beautiful shot there, hitting the proverbial nail on the proverbial head, proverbially speaking!

What I find is this: Sin is in fact SELFISHNESS, but interpreted into an action of heart, mind, spirit or physical act. The first sin in the garden of Eden was such, as Eve lusted for the fruit to satisfy SELF, and Adam then in covetous lust wanted it too, to fill SELF! Ever after, every single sin ever committed by any human being is an act of SELFishness, no exclusions.

The many doctrines of men directly reflect that SELFish spirit. We know by their cleverness of words that they're not unable to grasp the concepts of Scripture as written at the Hand of God. However, they just don't realy like what it says. So, "Here, God, let me help you out a little, as I interpret your Word, rewrite it, exclude a few thousand words, add several thousand more and create My [selfish] Own [selfish] Doctrine [selfish] of belief [selfish, because I won't accept yours as written, and mine is SUPERIOR to yours!"

So, the fact of the SELFishness of sin, and sins of SELF, and SELF being the focus of attention for all sinners is clear and obvious, and is revealed in man's selfish doctrines. Invariably these doctrines give a man more power or more control or more benefit or more blessing than that actually found in God's Perfect Word.

Tusk's entirely clever comment of a rather pompous attitude being common applies directly to those who dreamed up some of this silliness. Even more, I note that they have to add some amazing wondrous & intellectual name to their particular doctrines here & there, showing how very special they are & to make them more convincing, instead of speaking plain English. You know, like instead of 'One God Theory' it must be the 'Theory of Interconfabulated Esoterical Dynamic Pluralistic Monotheistic Extradiety'.

Sorry to get my replies all out of order, just dropped in & lost track of page numbers....
JDFree

 

[JDFree]

MightyAngel1, I will have to reply to your posts (as well as other people) when I have a bit more time. I just wanted to point out that what you are describing is not Calvinism. Your "understanding" of Calvinism and your "explanation" are fatally flawed. To disagree with Calvinism is one thing but to explain it away with preconceived (and false) ideas while not even understanding what it is really saying is a completely different beast. First of all, I never said we didn't have free will. I said I believe we have free will in the compatibilist sense but it is bound by our nature. I thought this was evident in my numerous requests for JDFree to research the doctrine of compatibilism.

The unregenerate man is free to choose God. The problem is that he never will choose God. He cannot choose God because he cannot understand the things of God and is deeply ingrained to hate the Light. Only the regenerate man can understand the things of God. The Freedom of the Will by Jonathan Edwards and The Bondage of the Will by Martin Luther are 2 of the most important books on the will that I could recommend to anyone.

Let me see if I got that right: an unregenerate man is free to choose God, but will never choose God, and cannot choose God, but may choose God, but will not want to because he hates God, so nobody can choose God because all are unregenerate without God in them, and they can't understand anything of God anyway: but you chose God when you were unregenerate and hated God and couldn't understand the things of God and now you are a Christian?? Interesting.

In my case, God revealed Himself to me, and I chose Him by free will decision, and He chose me, and we're real happy with each other so far. Looking forward to a few kazillion years in the heavenly kingdom to get to know Him better. I'll bet He plays a mean game of snooker.

 

[JDFree]

People on both sides of this debate should recognise that there are people who disagree with them that take the teaching of scripture seriously. It is unhelpful, for example, to say that there is a choice to be made between Calvinism and the Word of God.

Most Calvinists honour the Word of God, and believe that Calvinism offers the best interpretation of the various Biblical texts that deal with election, predestination, free will and security of salvation.

Those who reject Calvinism also honour scripture and believe their interpretation is the most consistent with the Bible.

For myself, I have spent a large part of my life reading the Bible and exploring what it teaches, yet as I grow, I find that my ideas and understanding changes. I am sure that in a few years time my interpretation of the Bible will have changed in some way. In a sense that is a good thing, because it will mean that I have grown in some way.

With ideas that are as subtle as these, it is not good to speak from entrenched positions, and to write caricatures of differing views.

We all have things to learn from each other - even those we disagree with - but this cannot happen if our dogma prevents us from hearing each other.

Hello, Hekuran,

Some very good & insightful points, however I disagree in some. All of these Doctrines of men, regardless of their name or description, are fabricated inventions, with something added or subtracted from the Word of God. If we look to the Revelation to St. John at 22:18-19, we find a very serious warning against just that:

"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add to him the plagues that are written in this book. And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the Holy City, and from the things which are written in this book. He which testifieth these things sayeth, Surely, I come quickly. Amen, Even so, come, Lord Jesus!"

It must be noted, God wrote the Bible, by His Holy Spirit working through the hearts & hands of men to cause the words. The words chosen are His, and in that last, the reference to 'book' is first 'biblos', then 'biblion', with biblos meaning the inner bark of papyrus, or by implication, a scroll. Biblion is a diminutive form, with meaning of 'a roll' as a bill, book, scroll or writing, according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. Man, I'll bet he was exhausted after writing it!

So, my point is: God wrote all of Scripture, and knew what would be included, and it's God Word. When He says the penalties for adding to or subtracting from the words of the 'book' or 'books' He is talking about the whole issued Word of the roll, the scrolls, the Bible in toto!

Therefore these of Calvin et all have some very dark times looming ahead for their extreme modifications of the Word of God and its meaning. Any may comment on the Bible, in attempt at clarifying the text received, but none may change it. Men's doctrines effectively change the text: "God didn't say that, God didn't mean that" even when they are looking directly at what they say God didn't say or didn't mean!

From that, I see no problem at all in warning others of the variance within these men's teachings, specially where that variance is so extreme as to literally change the meaning of the words of the Bible, adding to or subtracting from. Further, I believe we owe it to brothers & sisters in Christ and to our Lord God himself to do all in our power to protect them from spurious gospels, heresies, and apostacy. We are His stewards on this earth, and that is a functional part of responsible stewardship, to call foul when we know it to be so by His very Word.

Yet beyond that, there are many cases where a fabricated doctrine may, in one way or another, cause another to sin, either minor or grieviously. In that case, where it may deny them a reward, or even deny them entry into heavenly eternal life at all, it is a matter of grave seriousness. There a responsible Christian brother must SHOUT at the top of his lungs, "STOP! Beware lest ye fall!!!!"

 

[JDFree]

Howdy rojoloco!

Haha. The Regenerate man has come up with teachings such as Calvinism, Post Tribulation Rapture Doctrine, Mid Tribulation Rapture Doctrine, Pre-Wrath Rapture Doctrine, No Hell Doctrine, and Preterism to just name a few.

All of these Doctrines listed above have some Bible Truth tucked away in them. But, The foundation of each Doctrine above is based on error and misinterpretation of Scripture. And, in some cases, a total rejection of what God has Commanded in His Law.

And, All of these Christians claim to understand the Holy Word of God. Yet, What they do is interpret Scripture using the Allegorical Method of Scripture Interpretation.

An Invention of a Man by the name of Origen who died in the 2nd Century who was banned from the Christian Church and died in disgrace for teaching this Doctrine of Scripture Interpretation. Yet, Many Christians use this method of Scripture Interpretation in the Church today.

And, Calvinism is an invention of a polemic man, and a humanist lawyer, by the name of John Calvin.

I just recommend the Bible. God's Holy Word.

God Bless You!

Dr. Mike

Hey, Dr. Mike, just a quick comment here,

I was thinking the other day, a good sign in itself: God gives every man the desires of their heart. If they desire after SELF in all its hollow riches & vain glory, so be it, that is their empty, formless inheritance for all eternity. If they desire after God, so be it, that is their inheritance for all of eternity. According to the strength of the desire and conviction of the heart and actions within desire, so shall it be within those heavenly rewards.

So, regarding Pre-tribulation, Mid-Tribulation or Post-Tribulation Rapture, what if the same is true, in our Holy Unchanging Lord God Almighty?

You believe in Pre-Tribulation Rapture, as God's Love poured out in salvation of beloved children before the calamity of all calamities? So be it unto you!

You believe in Mid-Tribulation Rapture, that you'll have to endure a major part of the calamity because God won't save you out? So be it unto you!

You believe in Post-Tribulation Rapture, that God has so little Love for you that He will let you suffer all those horrendous things and then drag up your smoking, smoldering carcass? So be it unto you !

Just a thought, not solidly Scripturally based or anything, but a thought. Almost humorous on the one hand, but a pitiful crying shame on the other. Regardless, I know what I believe with all my heart, and you can guess what it is haha!

 

[SpiritLedEd]

We all have things to learn from each other - even those we disagree with - but this cannot happen if our dogma prevents us from hearing each other.

Paul spoke out against Christians getting caught up in disputes like these in his letters to Timothy (1 Tim 1:3-7) and Titus (Titus 3:9). The disputes of that day centered on the law and distracted people from the message of the Gospel. The disputes of today center on interpretation of certain Scriptures, but they also distract people from the message of the Gospel, which is "To all who received Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God." (Jn 1:12 NIV).

SLE

 

[IloveJesus92]

How do we know we are saved?
I pray all the time and ask Jesus to come into my heart.
I really hope I am saved, I try my best not to sin.
Sometimes I have bad thoughts, and doubts, but people tell me that's normal...
When I do, I ask for forgiveness.

 

[rojoloco]

Could you elaborate and explain what salvation is to you?

Short answer: Reconciliation to God by the calling of the Father, made possible through the death/resurrection of the Son, and made effective by the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit. Isn't the working of the Trinity beautiful? Soli Deo Gloria!

 

[rojoloco]

Rojoloco, I must say, your replies are quite selfish, no other more appropriate word applies.

I already stated clearly that these enormous posts, broken up in the way that you do, are virtually impossible to reply to. My last reply to your long, convoluted, rambling on & on & on post took all day. One may see by the times shown in my posts that it was fact.

Seems more like operator error. I've been posting this way for years now and it is the way most people reply on UBB style forums. The only difference is these posts are longer than your average post so it takes a little longer. However, the posts are far more organized and the work is worth the extra 5 minutes it takes. No idea why it took you x hours.

1] It seems you have been extensively schooled in a church's approved doctrine: correct? Yes? No?

No. I have extensively studied Scripture as well as the roots of Protestantism. The Reformation is where all Protestants began and it is something we should all be aware of if we are to call ourselves such. The great thing is that Scripture was expounded more than even in history during that time period. It is not approved church doctrine I study. It is the Word of God in proper context.

2] Along with that you were taught their interpretation of what Scripture REALLY says, beyond what it plainly says in simple language: correct? Yes? No?

Again, no. While I would be lying to say I never learned anything from others, I would be foolish to even desire that to be the case. However, you cannot make this claim either. We all learn from somewhere and we all learn how to study for ourselves from someone.

3] Overall the very large majority of your own Scriptural Study & research came AFTER you were in-doctrinated by a religious denomination's doctrinal views and interpretations of all things Christian: correct? Yes? No?

Once again, false. In fact, most Southern Baptists are not very reformed.

I mentioned it a couple of times but you apparently missed it: I am busy enough studying what the Word of God says to me personally, by that Word speaking to my heart directly.

You are aware that private interpretation is not a safe way to go about studying the Word of God right? (2 Peter 1:20) "What it means to me" is the exact opposite way we should be studying it. That method begins with us and moves its way out to God instead of starting with God and staying with God. What it means to me really doesn't mean anything in the grand scheme of things when it comes to the Truth.

Though I have studied several doctrines of men, constructed into church's systems of belief, it is not a thing of deep interest to me, even precious little. Yes, I have several of Pink's books, as well as an extensive library of Christian commentary.

This appears to be you choosing private interpretation over the wisdom of those teachers who have been placed before us.

What I choose is what my Lord & Savior God directs me to choose in His Holy Scripture, and that spoken by Holy Spirit to be penned by the hand of men: to study Scripture daily, to show myself approved of God, and RIGHTLY dividing the Word of Truth. According to Father God, and Jesus Christ His Son, and His Holy Spirit, and His blessed apostles & disciples, that is more than enough: but hey, what do they know, compared to the doctrines of men, right?

I can make the same claim. Then again, what is 2,000 years of dedicated study throughout the ranks of Christianity (not to mention 500 years worth since the Reformation alone) compared to your private interpretation, right?