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Calvanism (brief)

Discussion in 'Bible Answers' started by Chad, Jul 21, 2006.

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  1. "Isn't it funny that those speaking of "election" speak as if they are of the elect?"

    Um, do not scoff at the idea that Christians know they are the elect, because scripture COMMANDS us to know.

    "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God..." 1 Th 1:4

    "Be diligent to make your calling and election sure.." 2 Pet 1:5-10

    "Test yourself to see if you are in the faith..." 2nd Co 13:5

    "I write to you so that you may know whether or not you truly believe.." 1 Jhn 5:13

    Please do not scoff and mock and make fun of your fellow believers because they are obeying the Bible...

    Paul explicitly tells us that the saved are the elect.

    Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
    Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
    Rom 8:32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
    Rom 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

    2Ti 2:10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.

    So, to answer your question:

    "Isn't it funny that those speaking of "election" speak as if they are of the elect?"


    NO, it is NOT FUNNY to assume you are of the elect. I am sick to my stomach that you'd have such an attitude.
     
  2. I am a Calvminian. I am both. You Cannot Judge a Robot, Yet to God knows the words out of our mouths before we say them and are sitting and standing.

    Also
    Ephesians 2:8,9 For by grace you have be saved through faith, not by yourself, it is a gift of God. Not by works, lest any may should boast.
    What is a gift of God? The Salvation, Faith, Or Grace. What if its all three.
     
  3. It is still pretty arrogant toi believe you are chosen OVER OTHERS.

    Find your own scripture to prove this is approved-
    That YOU in some way are privy to who is selected and who isn't.

    DOH!

    Bless up!
     
  4. Then you have no clue what Calvinistic election is.
     
  5. Do you obey the sabbath, that day which was set aside for rest since Creation?

    If you do, we can continue.

    Otherwise, how dare you?
     
  6. Natty, I am having some trouble understanding your response here could you elaborate some?
     
  7. It's pretty arrogant to say you over rule God in who will be saved. I find it interesting that someone who believes that man has the final say in salvation and yet prays to God to change the hearts of men to convince them of salvation. If man has the final say shouldn't you be praying to men?
     

  8. Wow. You must have misunderstood me. I did not say that *I* know who is chosen and who is not. Nobody knows that except God.

    I simply said it is not arrogant for an adopted child of God to know He is secure in salvation (chosen). Only the elect will believe in Jesus. Only the elect will believe the gospel. Only the elect will be repentant of sins.

    If a person does all of those, then they can rest assured that they are elect. They can rest assured that they are chosen.

    It is not arrogant to think you have been chosen out of grace. It is, instead, humbling!

    What's arrogant, is that you think you are saved by *your own choice* instead of Gods. (arminianism)

    THAT is arrogant.
     
  9. "I am a Calvminian. I am both."

    Whoa, you're both a Calvinist *AND* an Arminian?

    So you believe in all 10 of the following things?

    Man is unable
    Man is able

    Election is conditional
    Election is unconditional

    The atonement is limited
    the atonement is unlimited

    the calling is effectual
    the calling is resistible

    the saints will persevere
    the saints can lose salvation

    Wow! I've never met someone who believes in ALL TEN POINTS! (5 Calv, 5 Armin)

    I didn't even know it was logically or scripturally possible!
     
  10. #70 JWayne, Oct 20, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2008
    What ever happened to being a Christian? Not good enough? God's Word stands alone and needs no outside influence.

    There is a great problem when Christians go outside God's Word and find what they believe to be more true, and that is what they follow.

    I worship God, I do not need any man telling me what God says. "Thou shalt not have no other gods before Me."

    It is God's desire that everyone will spend eternity with Him in heaven, so therefore we all are His elect, but it is still our choice of which we select.
     
  11. #71 hiselect, Oct 20, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2008
    A Calvinist is a Christian. It is just one that believes what the Bible says about God being sovereign over *everything*, including salvation.

    I agree. Thankfully, Calvinists do not do that - non-Calvinists(Arminians) do.

    Amen! We should trust the Bible alone for our doctrine - have you done this with your statements here?
    You are making a statement that sort of clouds the issue and blurs the distinction between things. Your statement doesn't really add to the 500 year long debate between Arminianism and Calvinism.

    First of all, you are confusing God's decretive will (His decree), also called His sovereign will, with his "will of disposition"

    God's decretive will *always, always, always* happens. God always decrees whatsoever comes to pass. He is the Alpha and the Omega, declaring the end from the beginning, doing His good pleasure, accomplishing His purposes. For example, God decreed the universe would be created. God decreed Christ would die on the cross. God decreed Pharaoh's heart would be hardened.

    However, God's will of disposition is different in that it does not determine whatsoever comes to pass, but merely reveals how God "Feels" about something. For example "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his evil ways and live." But, do all the wicked do this? No, because it is not God's decree. God instead allows most of the wicked to perish, because it serves His greater, mysterious will, it glorifies His justice, it brings him more glory to let most perish and only save a small few than it does to save one more person, or let one more person perish. It happens exactly in the way God decreed it.

    This is what the Bible means when it talks about predestination. Paul lays this out in Romans 8

    Whom He predestined, he called, and whom he called, He justified, and whom he justified, He glorified. Who shall lay anything to the charge of God's elect? It is God who justifies!" Rom 8:30, 33

    Salvation is not a game of chance to God. God is not crossing His fingers hoping mankind will somehow exert his will and "choose him" or "let him save them". God is sovereign over salvation. God has a plan. God did not merely make "all men savable", but instead, He literally and actually saved some. He predestined some, guaranteeing that some would be saved, rather than justly letting all perish.

    Christ did not merely die on the cross to make all men "redeemable", failing for the great majority of mankind, but rather, He literally and actually redeemed some. Christ Himself says this in John 17.

    "I do not pray for the world, but for those that you have given me" Jn 17:9

    "I will give eternal live to all those you have given me" Jhn 17:2

    This debate has one answer: God is sovereign over salvation, and does not fail to save anyone. Everyone that is saved is saved on purpose. Everyone that is saved is exactly whom God intended to save. Heaven is not full of empty mansions because of people that God tried to save, but couldn't. Christ blood was not wasted "attempting" to save men that end up in hell.

    To think these things is utter blasphemy.

    Secondly, you make the statement "it is our choice".

    Excuse me? What choice and ability and power does the Scripture tell us we have? Absolutely none. You have stated this out of ignorance at best, or a denial of the doctrine of the Fall and Total depravity at worse.

    There is a difference between what man must do and what man cannot do, in and of himself, with his own power.

    The Bible tells us what men MUST do to be saved: repent and believe

    But, the Bible also tells us, repeatedly, what man CANNOT do. The great "cannots" of the Bible.

    Man cannot see the kingdom until he is born again - Jn 3:3
    Man cannot come to/believe in Christ unless the Father grants it - Jn 6:44
    But, everyone that the Father grants it to/draws WILL come to/believe in Christ! Jn 6:37
    The natural, un-born again man cannot understand spiritual things and finds the gospel foolishness. 1 Co 2:14
    Man is a hater of God who cannot do ANYTHING pleasing to God until he is born again - Rom 8:8, Rom 1:30

    Where do you find a doctrine of "man's ability to choose" in light of these scriptures?

    Friend, man DOES choose for Christ, but only because God first chose/elected him. Predestination results in being saved, not vice versa. We love Him because He first loved us. We only believe because we are Christ's sheep who were predestined. We only believe because we are ordained to eternal life.

    Acts 13:48 - And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed

    John 10:26, 27-29 - You (the pharisees) do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep hear my voice and follow me. I give them eternal life. My Father gave them to me.

    Yes, you choose Christ, but only after God predestined you to do so, enables you to, grants it to you, draws you, and effectually calls you.

    "Free will carried many a soul to hell, but never a soul to heaven" - Spurgeon

    "I will go as far as Martin Luther, in that strong assertion of his, where he says, "If any man doth ascribe aught of salvation, even the very least, to the free-will of man, he knoweth nothing of grace, and he hath not learnt Jesus Christ aright." It may seem a harsh sentiment; but he who in his soul believes that man does of his own free-will turn to God, cannot have been taught of God, for that is one of the first principles taught us when God begins with us, that we have neither will nor power, but that he gives both; that he is "Alpha and Omega" in the salvation of men." - Spurgeon

    Friend, all you can do with your own will is go straight to hell, hating God the entire way there.

    It takes God's will to get you into heaven. It takes God to redeem you, resurrect you from spiritual deadness, predestine you, elect you, quicken you, draw you, and enable you to believe.

    We are born in sin, hellbound, guilty before God. We have no power to approach God. Christ declares it himself. We cannot come unless God pulls us to Christ, and when that happens, we WILL come, without a doubt. God is sovereign.
     
  12. #72 JWayne, Oct 20, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2008
    First of all, I am confusing nothing, I am well with my belief. I am well satisfied to take God's Word as it is and go with it. I do not find it necessary to add to it, and make it say what I want it to say.

    I am not the one saying that I follow Calvin ( a man ), which is IMHO a form of worship. Again..."Thou shalt have no other gods before me."-God

    If you are a Calvinistic Christian,(or any other kind of) then you place Calvin above God, plain and simple. Sounds like pagan idol worship to me.

    Again...What ever happened to simply being a Christian?
     
  13. #73 hiselect, Oct 20, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2008

    Friend you are extremely confused about all of this. Calvinism is simply a theology of a set of doctrines that the Bible teaches. It is not following "John Calvin". John Calvin did not invent Calvinism. What we mean by the word "Calvinism" is TULIP, each letter representing a doctrine that the Bible teaches. John Calvin did not sit down one day and "invent" TULIP. John Calvin taught nothing new and did not invent anything. If John Calvin discovered something "new", he rejected it, because his goal was to stay orthodox.

    That being said:

    What John Calvin the individual person believed has absolutely nothing to do with anything. All that matters is what the Bible teaches. And here's the kicker...The Bible teaches TULIP whether or not John Calvin ever existed at all. These set of doctrines are only called "Calvinism' as a nickname. Men who are Calvinists are not followers of John Calvin anymore than men who are trinitarians are followers of a man named "Trinitarius".

    Calvinism is a doctrine, a theology. It is no different than saying that the Trinity is a doctrine, a theology.

    I label myself a "Trinitarian" because I believe the Bible teaches the Trinity. I label myself a "Calvinist" because I believe the bible teaches TULIP. What the human being John Calvin believed has absolutely nothing to do with anything - to bring him into the debate is ad hominem, and meaningless.

    The term "Calvinism" simply exists as a nickname to distinguish a person's theology from that of Arminians (non-Calvinists).

    Make sense? There is no need to be afraid of or recoil from terminology and labels when in a theological discussion. They are just that - labels. They do not declare adoration of or worship of anything. They simply exist to make these debates alot easier so people will know what your theology is. So people will know where you are coming from.

    Yes, it is unfortunate that the term "Calvinist" comes with alot of baggage. You have just proved it. It comes with alot of misconceptions, you have just proved it with your last statement.

    But, this baggage is worth it once the people engaging in debate and discussion have actually had a chance to learn, and understand the terminology. It makes things go smoother to just use the word "calvinist" than to have to sit there and explain what that means every single time you are talking about it.

    I hope I have helped clear up some of these terms and labels for you, to benefit your activity in the "Great debate" of predestination, Calvinism vs Arminianism.

    I will close with this:

    This statement is going to backfire on you my friend, because if you are not a Calvinist Christian, then you are the only alternative: an Arminian Christian, which, according to you, means you worship the man Jacob Arminius. I'm sure you don't do that..do you?

    God bless.
     
  14. "I do not find it necessary to add to it, and make it say what I want it to say"

    And do you accuse me of doing this?
     
  15. The doctrine of Election/Calvinism is Biblical. The discussion of it goes back to the early church. Even before John Calvin was born. Go to Phil Johnson's websit and listen to the history of Calvinism, it's educational.
     

  16. The only person I worship, my friend, is Jesus Christ. I am a follower of Christ alone. There is absolutely no confusion on my part. The only confusion lies with you and your beliefs, which you adamantly insist that you place man's beliefs above what God teaches us.

    I am saved by God's grace! I am a Christian because I follow Christ who died on the cross for us all. I do not follow John, Jacob, or any other man, who has taken God's word and twisted it's meaning, since none of these have done anything to wash away our sins!

    Quite the oxymorn! Talk about a meaningless statement. This is very common with those who do not follow the bible as it is, reminds me of catholic ideology.

    Your attempts to clear up things are truly not necessary, but hey, you are free to use your time as you see fit.


    One last thing....I label myself CHRISTIAN, nothing more nothing less. Too bad we all can not do the same.



     
  17. Wow!

    All I did in my initial post was directly copy/paste scripture after scripture in support of the Bible's stance on these things, and this is the vague, meaningless comeback you have for me?

    Sounds like you have a problem with the scripture itself, the Bible, not me.
     
  18. 1 John 4:19 says, "We love him, because he first loved us."
     
  19. Out of all the people in this thread, I think Bambi is the only one that really understands these things.

    Even Chad presented TULIP in the first post, and then turned around and agreed with the idea that God's election was based on the faith He foresaw in people!

    He basically contradicted himself because the "foreseen faith" concept is 100% pure Arminianism, which is called "Conditional election", and is completely unbiblical.

    The Bible says:

    Acts 13:48 says "As many as were ordained to eternal life believed"

    Jesus says "You do not believe because you are not my sheep" John 10:26

    Jesus says "You do not understand because you are not of God"

    Paul, in Romans 8:30 says "Those He predestined, He called"

    Jesus in John 6:37 says "All that the Father gives to me will come to me"

    In all of these verses, the reason anyone believes, comes to Christ, or is "called', is *BECAUSE* they were first predestined.

    In other words, according to the Bible, believing is the result of being predestined, not the cause of it.

    So, Chad, and several others responding to the post, said in words that they agreed with "Unconditional election", but then turned around and agreed with the unbiblical, Arminian "conditional election"

    I was amazed at such doctrinal and theological flip-flopping.
     
  20. I love the way you twist things! Again and one last time, the problem lies in your court. I do not have any issue with scripture, or the bible, nor do I have issue with being simply a Christian! I do not need any adjective to describe the kind of Christian I am.

    I am proud to be a Christian. I serve God, and I follow His word, as it is, without interjection from human ideology being infused.

    John 1:29; 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:6; 2 Peter 2:1

    Calvinism, and most anything else if out of balance, can hinder evangelism. The hypothetical argument raised against Calvinism is this: "Since God chose His own in eternity past; and, since He grants repentance and faith needed in order to come to Him; and, since all He has chosen will, in fact, come to Him John 6:37; and all who come to Him are eternally secure; then, it follows that man isn't involved in salvation." But this is a wrong conclusion. Man is very much involved. God ordains the end—the salvation of lost man. But God also ordains the MEANS to the end— evangelism. God could have ordained any number of ways to communicate salvation. He has given a revelation of Himself in creation and conscience (Romans 1 - 2). But He has specifically chosen to communicate the Gospel message through believers sharing the message of salvation Romans 10:9-17.
     

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