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Calvanism (brief)

Discussion in 'Bible Answers' started by Chad, Jul 21, 2006.

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  1. "What is Calvinism and is it Biblical?
    What are the five points of Calvinism?"

    The five points of Calvinism can be summarized with the letters TULIP. T stands for total depravity, U for unconditional election, L for limited atonement, I for irresistible grace, P for perseverance of the saints. Here are the definitions and Scripture references Calvinists use to defend their beliefs. Total Depravity = as a result of Adam’s fall the entire human race is affected; all humanity is dead in trespasses and sins. Man is unable to save himself (Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-18). Unconditional Election = Because man is dead in sin, he is unable to initiate response to God; therefore, in eternity past God elected certain people to salvation. Election and predestination are unconditional; they are not based on man’s response (Romans 8:29-30; 9:11; Ephesians 1:4-6,11-12).

    Limited Atonement = Because God determined that certain ones should be saved as a result of God’s unconditional election, He determined that Christ should die for the elect alone. All whom God has elected and Christ died for will be saved (Matthew 1:21; John 10:11; 17:9; Acts 20:28; Romans 8:32; Ephesians 5:25). Irresistible Grace = Those whom God elected and Christ died for, God draws to Himself through irresistible grace. God makes man willing to come to Him. When God calls, man responds (John 6:37,44; 10:16). Perseverance of the Saints = The precise ones God has elected and drawn to Himself through the Holy Spirit will persevere in faith. None whom God has elected will be lost; they are eternally secure (John 10:27-29; Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:3-14).

    I believe that Total Depravity, Unconditional Election, Irresistible Grace, and Perseverance of the Saints are Biblical doctrines. Man is definitely sinful and incapable of believing in God on his own. God elects people based on His will alone – it is not based on any merit in the person chosen. All those whom God has chosen will come to faith. All those who are truly born-again will persevere in their faith. However, I do not believe that Limited Atonement is correct. Jesus died for the sins of the whole world, not just for the sins of the elect. “And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world” (1 John 2:2). Other verses in opposition to limited atonement are John 1:29; 3:16; 1 Timothy 2:6; 2 Peter 2:1.​
     
  2. I agree, God elects people to be saved based on His will alone. But, people who don't examine Scripture carefully might conclude that God's choice of people was arbitrary and capricious; as if He made His choices by throwing darts at a huge wall that had the names of all people written on it. The names the darts stuck into, those people were saved. All the others, tough break. That is not the way it was.

    Because of His omniscience, God knew in advance who would seek relationship with Him through Jesus and those folks are the ones elected to be saved. "Whoever would find God must first believe that He exists and that He rewards those who seek Him diligently." (Hebrews 11:6)


    SLE
     
  3. Amen to that brother. This is very important to keep in mind. ANYONE who chooses Jesus Christ as Savior, GOD will receive salvation through Him as promised by Him.
     
  4. There are a few books out critiquing all the five points of calvinism as defined by calvinists. The highest profile one being Dave Hunt's "What Love is This: Calvinisms Missrepresentation of God". I think it is a very good book. It basically rejects Calvinism and Arminyism, while acknowledging that there are elements of truth in both systems; but neither of them are completely biblical.

    If Calvinism were true and salvation was purely a matter of God's "sovereign" election then a truely good God would save everyone as many verses teach: "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."
    The fact that calvinists have to ignore or give a special "initiated" interpretation to such verses proves that it is not an entirely biblical theology.

    If you take the issue of sovreignty to it's logical conclusion, as only a few calvinists have been honest enough to do, by making this the number one, primary, controlling attribute of God: you end up with a world where every possible thought, word and deed and contingcy happens because of the predestination of God. This is what Luther believed in The Bondage of the Will. Even the fall and sin were predestined by God, so he could **** the majority, showing his justice and save the elect, showing his mercy.

    God has chosen to save all those who by the enabling and enlightening of the Holy Spirit put their faith in Christ.

    I believe there is a scriptural middle ground between calvinism and arminyism. There is a true open door to salvation and whosoever will really may be saved; as God calls all men through Christ. The elect are the whosoever wills and the non-elect are the whosoever won'ts.
    Election and Predestination have not to do with God's choice of individuals to salvation but of the Church to Sonship and eternal glory, as a close reading of the texts dealing with these matters will, I believe, bear out.

    For example Ephesians 1: 4 does not mention a choice of an individual to salvation but the choice of God of the Ephesions and the faithful in Christ Jesus to holiness and blamelessness and then in verse 5 to sonship. Only by taking the words "chosen us in him before the foundation of the world" out of context a long with many other texts used as pretexts can the Calvinistic line be maintained. The before the foundation of the world has to do with God's infinite foreknowledge which is one of his many balanced attributes and is not synonoumous with election.
     
  5. Well what if we thought of it this way.
    We must all agree that salvation is limited, right? That not everyone goes to heaven, correct?

    So, if that is true, then who limits it? God or Man?
     
  6. Why in the world must we agree with that "fact" that salvation is limited? Only 5 point Calvinists think that, and at least 90 percent of the Christians in the world are not 5 point Calvinists. (10% are Arminians, and 80% are neither Calvinist nor Arminian.) I managed to get through 30 years as a missionary without hearing of either gentleman or their theologies. I only ran across them since I retired.
    Since you obviously are on the internet, try reading a few sites on the subject. I realy recommend biblehelp.org's site on Selective Salvation, and Calvary Chapel's site on Calvinism versus Arminianism. Both are very balanced well written sites, and both avoid name calling and hair splitting that ignores context and other rules of Biblical interpretation.
    Your Ever Well Wisher,
    Michael A. Johnson
     
  7. 30 years as a missionary.....tremendous. Absolutely wonderful, I salute you........in Jesus.

    There is no necessity for anyone to agree with Calvin. Calvin was a scholar, many may subscribe to his beliefs because of that. He did open up the foreknowledge of God.

    Salvation, eternal life, an unlimited future, in a New Heaven and a New Earth wherein dwelleth righteousness, is all about Jesus.

    "He that hath the Son hath life.............he that hath not the Son of God, hath not life"

    The message today is "Do you want to know Jesus?" New life, deliverance from all bandage is found in Jesus.

    My prayer is that all who moderate, oversee, visit this "talkjesus' web-site will become aware of His Power..

    In Jesus Name........only you can help us.
     
  8. #8 jiggyfly, Sep 14, 2006
    Last edited: Sep 14, 2006
    John 3:16
    For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    1Timothy 2:1-4
    1*I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2*for kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3*For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

    2Peter 3:9
    The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

    1John 4:7&8
    7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

    1Corinthians 13:4-7
    4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud 5 or rude. Love does not demand its own way. Love is not irritable, and it keeps no record of when it has been wronged. 6 It is never glad about injustice but rejoices whenever the truth wins out. 7 Love never gives up, never loses faith, is always hopeful, and endures through every circumstance.

    There is a very distinguishing difference between all knowing and controlling. Yes God knows who will repent but He does not manipulate them to repentance. Everyone has a free choice and opertunity. God knows the heart.
     
  9. Kinda funny how no one really answered my question.
     

  10. Its not funny and the question was answered to you 3 times. Read carefully. Read the Scripture jiggyfly quoted as well carefully.

    You believe and go to Heaven or you do not. John 3:16 makes that simply clear.
     
  11. Actually the question is what is known as a logic flaw. It assumes that there can only be the choices that you give in the question, and that salvation is in some way limited. But to try to answer it more directly, salvation is only limited by the number of members of the human race. God can't save more people than have existed. God saves everyone who comes to Him. And naturally, those who don't come to Him are not saved. That is why missionaries run around doing everything they can to present people with the Good News, so people can choose. None of the Missionaries I ever worked with thought that their was any limitation on who got saved.
     
  12. Thank you for your Kind words. I use the internet at the library and can't answer too quickly.
     
  13. By the By, I do apologise for the address mistake. I am rather new to computers and don't understand some things that are obvious to old hands. Like I thought that advertize a website meant like a commercial. I also didn't catch that this was the middle of a chain of letters and not its beginning. I tried to reply direct to your reproof, but it said I can't until I get 5 posts. So I am apologising here.
     
  14. Somethings i would like to say based on this issue.

    First off the fact that churches no longer speak of it IMO is not a good thing. When i was saved i was told thats it you can no longer lose your salvation....that was it no explantion or nothing so i didnt believe it and strait away i was on shaky foundations with God.

    I am a naturally insecure person so it was all to easy for me to believe it can be lost and that God would leave me. I spent 3 years striving to be perfect, constantly beating myself up and not daring to believe i was saved.

    After that the calvinsit view was shown to me in such a way i could no longer ignore it. To know that God by His decision has chosen me, not the other way round, that He is in control is the greatest of comforts, i now believe i am saved and no longer strive for pefection (i still try cause i believe we have personal responsibility to try) but trust God will sort me, and He does.

    I dont know how many other that are going through what i went through, but this changed it for me. I know there are many that dont believe the calvinist view and thats their choice, this is my testimoney on something, please do not use it to start a debate. I just wanted to share that.

    God bless you all. :)
     
  15. Ok here goes- I dont want to offend, however, I believe the bible says you were chosen from before the beginning of the earth. I am not sure quite how it works with limited atonement, but I do know that God is in control and capable of insuring His will is done!!!
    This does not excuse us from witnessing because we do not know whom He has chosen. We are part of His plan and obedience is necessary for our growth! He is an awesome God and I am grateful I dont need to understand everything. I only need to know that He is El Elyon - God Most High and salvation is through grace (grace is first He extended grace by letting His son die on a cross) by faith (we know who has spoken to our soul and our soul responds to the only One that can fill the void). I love my brothers and sisters in Christ and do not want to argue these things - am merely letting you see what I see- then God will work with you to discern what is right
     
  16. When I was down at Madra Gra witnessing this year I held a sign that said

    "LOVE JESUS OR GO TO HELL"


    That sums it up for me, so many did not like it at all. It is straight and to the point. To me there is no gray area when it comes to the Lord Jesus Christ.


    God bless all,
    debbi
     
  17. you are right nearly saved-totally lost!!!!
     
  18. Yes Ronda He is Lord and King of all. Yes Amen we need to witness wherever we are at. We go into the jails, streets, homeless and feed them. The great commission is for all.
    No I do not believe in Calvism, but I do not argue it. The one question I ask people is "who do you say Jesus is?"

    in His service,
    debbi
     
  19. Faithworks, You nailed it! The various theologies and philosophies being activated in the church are important and do need to be discussed. But, as the saying goes, we need to keep the main thing the main thing. And the main thing is what do you do with the person of Jesus Christ?

    SLE
     
  20. Each must find for themselves

    In my opinion, different denominations only worship differently, some prefer little iconic symbolism some more. Do we choose to worship in a certain way because of our personality?
    I was born again and Spirit filled in South Africa in a Charasmatic church, since then I have worshipped in an evangelical mission, a gospel hall, a Methodist. I have gone to one or two services in a Catholic church and been overawed at seeing Christ on the cross, reminding me at the time, of that great sacrifice.
    Denominations however, are man made, it's like theology, it has it's place but be aware, to much study can hinder. In fact it can cause confusion. It is for some, not for others. Some people are academics, some are not.
    Our faith is just that, faith. In one Holy God, Father, Son, Spirit. It is my believe that because God is all knowing, seeing and all powerful, that He knew and knows therefore He knew/knows who will choose Jesus as Saviour and Lord and who will not. There is still the responsibility of mankind to use their God given brain, will, choice.
    Therefore, God has put His plan into place, He has done all He can to bring about a life changing and life saving experience for sinners (the whole human race). We must take that gift of free will and exercise it, to choose life or to choose death. Some people think that the cross is no longer necessary, how could God choose only some and not others, some think that all will be saved because how could God do/be otherwise, is He not love.
    The biggest lie I have come across since returning to the Uk in 1990, is that of humanity being 'naturally' good at heart. To make people aware of and accept that we are all 'naturally' anything but good at heart, and are in need of an 'internal' wash. An internal cleansing, is very hard. It is easy to watch the news, read the papers and say, "they should be hung" "thats disgusting" or whatever, but to look at ourselves and admit that however big or small our failings, we are all in the same boat. We are all in need of a spotless, sinless, saviour. None of us is without fault or flaw. No one church is flawless.
    What I am trying to say (badly perhaps!) is that other peoples opinion's are just that, opinions, God expects us each to find for themselves His amazing love and grace. Now, before it's too late.
     

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