By Grace Alone

[RJ]

Grace means to get something that you do not deserve; unmerited favor. Mercy means you do not get a punishment that you deserve; compassion, forbearance. God is abundant in grace and mercy.

God never changes:
Malachi 3:6
For I am the Lord, I do not change.
Hebrews 13:8
Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

God's grace has always been:
Genesis 6:8
"But Noah found grace in the eyes of the Lord"
Psalm 45:2
"Grace is poured upon Your lips"
Psalm 23:6
Surely goodness and grace will pursue me all the days of my life, Surely goodness and grace will pursue me all the days of my life, and I will return to the house of the Lord forever".

And now, salvation is by grace alone and not by works unless we would boast and surely we would. Ephesians 2:8-9
I understand , that for some, this is hard to beleive, after all : "WE have to do something"!
If God said it is by grace, the same grace that has always exhisted, and that this grace is a gift, there is nothing that we can do to merit such a gift.

I have heard some , so intent on doing something to please God, will say it is a combination of works and grace. Surely, anything required of us, any work prior and a prerequiste to salvation, then grace can not exist where any work occurs for it would no longer be by grace.

 

[B-A-C]

Grace means to get something that you do not deserve; unmerited favor. Mercy means you do not get a punishment that you deserve; compassion, forbearance. God is abundant in grace and mercy.

And now, salvation is by grace alone and not by works unless we would boast and surely we would. Ephesians 2:8-9
I understand , that for some, this is hard to beleive, after all : "WE have to do something"!
.

I m just curious what Bile version you use? I have 16 Bibles and the word "alone" is not in Eph 2:8-9; in any of them.

 

[B-A-C]

Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

 

[RJ]

I m just curious what Bile version you use? I have 16 Bibles and the word "alone" is not in Eph 2:8-9; in any of them.

Hi B-A-C, I see the new system is working fine; it didn't take you long to chime in on an old disagreement of ours..lol.

We have discussed this subject throughly over the years, you beleive in some required works to secure your salvation and I don't!
Sure. Sorry for the mis-direction, those are my words, as what I see in the verse as the intent and not to be a direct qoute from any source regarding the Ephesians verse. I appologize to everyone who views this thread.

Ephesians 2:8-9, 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.
NIV
From this verse and why I say grace alone is:
1. God says it is by grace that you have been saved
2. He says it is not of yourself
3.He says it is a gift
4. God further says it is not by any of your works
5.God says not by works, so no one can boast.

If that doesn't mean by grace alone, I don't know what does. Think about it, God says point blank that your salvation is by grace and he doesn't say plus or add anything else to it. In fact, he is emphatic about not allowing you do do ANY work. He adds that if it was by any works, then you can boast and you , as a human, certainly would. For you to go around and boast about you part in salvation, would negate the finality of his son's sacrifice and he could not allow that. That is like someone else saying you must be water baptised to be saved. People who do and say that are boasting about the work that they or the Pastor has done toward your salvation.

Again, I am sorry for the appearance that the scripture said the words " by grace alone", you are right, it does not. I made a poor effort of implying that the verse meant that.

 

[RJ]

Jas 2:14; What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:24; You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Yes sir and here we go again.
No disrespect but we have certainly been here again.
I think you get it mixed up what it takes to be saved and what it takes to show proof that you have been saved.
1. what it takes to be saved....God's grace to you alone, any works required prior to salvation, then it is not grace.
2. what it takes to show or prove you have been saved... yes, after salvation you should have works of the holy Spirit through and by you; if you do not have these works, then you have not beensaved to beging with.
3. Yes, justified is very important and it is not the same as salvation, though it certainly is a part of salvation. To properly discuss Justification, you would have to bring in Sanctification and others and that would require too many verses and bog down this original discussion of grace. By faith alone you are saved but you're salvation is further justified by the works that you bare after salvation. Without these works your faith must be dead and there was no salvation to start with.

 

[B-A-C]

I wonder, what if we put the word "alone" after works, instead of grace?

Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9; not as a result of works ALONE, so that no one may boast.

Yes I added the word "alone" to the scripture above. (Which is basically the same as what you did).
No one will be saved by works alone, but no one will be saved by grace alone. In fact the phrase "saved by grace alone" doesn't exist anywhere in the Bible.
In fact there is no verse in the Bible where the words "grace" and "alone" exist together.
I personally think it's wrong to build a doctrine on one verse. Especially if that verse disagrees with other verses. (In this case James 2:14; and James 2:24
However if we did add the word "alone" to Eph 2:9; (instead of verse 8) then those verses in James make more sense.

Why is this so important?
Some people that Jesus comes into you and then manipulates your will, thoughts, and actions to make you do what he wants you to do.
(I still maintain it isn't Jesus really, but rather the Holy Spirit that dwells inside us).
Another group of people believe that God leaves you in control of your thoughts, will and actions even after you get saved.
(In fact it could be argued that you are a slave to sin and really aren't in control UNTIL you get saved).

I've heard people say things like "If Jesus is really living inside you, will aren't able to go on sinning willfully". Yet the Bible says we able to keep
sinning after we are saved. I don't know a single person who hasn't sinned at least once since they've gotten saved.
(So is it Jesus inside them manipulating them to sin? I don't think so)

There really is no way to separate our actions from salvation. I personally believe that "grace alone" is a satanic doctrine. I also believe that
belief that Jesus "controls us" is a satanic doctrine. The Holy Spirit will guide us, persuade us, help us, remind us to do the rights things, but
He doesn't force us to do anything we don't want to do. In the end it's OUR will that guides our actions and decisions. This is proved every time we sin.

Rom 10:6; But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),

If we say Jesus is controlling our actions, and then we sin, then we are bringing Jesus down.
If we say we believe in Jesus and we want Him to be our Lord, and that we will do OUR best to follow Him, then any sins we do are totally OUR fault
This always ultimately leads to free-will discussions. God doesn't want slaves (despite John McArthur), He want those who freely choose to follow Him.

 

[B-A-C]

I also believe the "non free-will" doctrine is satanic. It believe if our attitude is "sit back, God control's everything anyway".
It teaches complacency with our lives, and it teaches complacency in the building up of God's kingdom.

 

[Travis]

I also believe the "non free-will" doctrine is satanic. It believe if our attitude is "sit back, God control's everything anyway".
It teaches complacency with our lives, and it teaches complacency in the building up of God's kingdom.

Outright passivity is definitely demonic. If one's doctrine leads them to complete and utter passivity something is wrong.

That being said, if I understand you correctly, the doctrine that you consider satanic in no way leads me to be passive, in fact it is my driving motivation.

 

[Strypes]

In the opening post Rj quoted Psalm 23.. and it seems that grace and mercy were flipped?

 

[Travis]

(I still maintain it isn't Jesus really, but rather the Holy Spirit that dwells inside us).

You're still stuck on that? Ha. Not trying to be mean, but I truly do find that funny.

There really is no way to separate our actions from salvation. I personally believe that "grace alone" is a satanic doctrine. I also believe that belief that Jesus "controls us" is a satanic doctrine. The Holy Spirit will guide us, persuade us, help us, remind us to do the rights things, but He doesn't force us to do anything we don't want to do. In the end it's OUR will that guides our actions and decisions. This is proved every time we sin.

Romans 10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
​

Faith manifests itself in confession with our mouth. How can you say that someone who truly believes in their heart, and confesses with their mouth, and does not deny, that this is not sufficient? But we do see this verse:

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

How can both of these scriptures be true? One says that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. But the next shows people saying "Lord, Lord," who are clearly not saved.

God doesn't want slaves (despite John McArthur), He want those who freely choose to follow Him.

If he doesn't want slaves, then why does he call us his slaves? What am I missing? I'm not a huge John McArthur fan, but the word for slave in the NT is pretty well defined by it's cultural context.


p.s. When I previewed my post, it removed my scripture address references… odd

 

[RJ]

In the opening post Rj quoted Psalm 23.. and it seems that grace and mercy were flipped?

Surely goodness and grace will pursue me all the days of my life, and I will return to the house of the Lord forever". Psalm 23:6
I am not sure what you mean that they are "flipped". But, though some translations say love and kndness instead of mercy, I would say that mercy is used most often. I was in error to insert the word grace from memmory instead of coppying a direct verse qoute. I guess for me I have a hard time seperating the two words. It is like what truly came first. Was it because of God's mercy that he gives us grace or, is it by grace that God is merciful towards beleivers. I guess the in this context here, the main idea about my starting the thread was all these things, grace, kindness, mercy, love are from God and nothing to do with any works we can do. Thanks for the reply!

 

[RJ]

I also believe the "non free-will" doctrine is satanic. It believe if our attitude is "sit back, God control's everything anyway".
It teaches complacency with our lives, and it teaches complacency in the building up of God's kingdom.

I hope your not saying that saved by grace alone is the same as some demonic "non-free will" doctrine. If you are saying that, then this non-free will belief is by no true Christian with Christ living inside them. Like God says, grace is a gift. And, if it is truly a gift as he says, it must be there for you to either take or not take his free gift.

 

[RJ]

I also believe the "non free-will" doctrine is satanic. It believe if our attitude is "sit back, God control's everything anyway".
It teaches complacency with our lives, and it teaches complacency in the building up of God's kingdom.

God is Definetly in control but I still had my own free will to chose him or not, he does not chose for me. B-A-C, we have been at this for sometime now and, maybe you know others who feel this way but, you have never heard me say or condone this" sit back" behaviour. I disagree with it as much as you do but I still know it is by grace alone.

 

[RJ]

I wonder, what if we put the word "alone" after works, instead of grace?

Eph 2:8; For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
Eph 2:9; not as a result of works ALONE, so that no one may boast.

Yes I added the word "alone" to the scripture above. (Which is basically the same as what you did).
No one will be saved by works alone, but no one will be saved by grace alone. In fact the phrase "saved by grace alone" doesn't exist anywhere in the Bible.
In fact there is no verse in the Bible where the words "grace" and "alone" exist together.
I personally think it's wrong to build a doctrine on one verse. Especially if that verse disagrees with other verses. (In this case James 2:14; and James 2:24
However if we did add the word "alone" to Eph 2:9; (instead of verse 8) then those verses in James make more sense.

Why is this so important?
Some people that Jesus comes into you and then manipulates your will, thoughts, and actions to make you do what he wants you to do.
(I still maintain it isn't Jesus really, but rather the Holy Spirit that dwells inside us).
Another group of people believe that God leaves you in control of your thoughts, will and actions even after you get saved.
(In fact it could be argued that you are a slave to sin and really aren't in control UNTIL you get saved).

I've heard people say things like "If Jesus is really living inside you, will aren't able to go on sinning willfully". Yet the Bible says we able to keep
sinning after we are saved. I don't know a single person who hasn't sinned at least once since they've gotten saved.
(So is it Jesus inside them manipulating them to sin? I don't think so)

There really is no way to separate our actions from salvation. I personally believe that "grace alone" is a satanic doctrine. I also believe that
belief that Jesus "controls us" is a satanic doctrine. The Holy Spirit will guide us, persuade us, help us, remind us to do the rights things, but
He doesn't force us to do anything we don't want to do. In the end it's OUR will that guides our actions and decisions. This is proved every time we sin.

Rom 10:6; But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: "DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, 'WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?' (that is, to bring Christ down),

If we say Jesus is controlling our actions, and then we sin, then we are bringing Jesus down.
If we say we believe in Jesus and we want Him to be our Lord, and that we will do OUR best to follow Him, then any sins we do are totally OUR fault
This always ultimately leads to free-will discussions. God doesn't want slaves (despite John McArthur), He want those who freely choose to follow Him.

Do you beleive in the Trinity? If you do, how can you say that there is a difference between jesus and the Holy spirit. How can you limit such an omnipotent God?
You admittenly added the word alone to scripture and then say I did the same thing. Please show me where I added a word to the scripture I gave you?! Who said that jesus is controlling our actions...it certainly wasn't me?!
Again, "by grace alone" would be satanic, if like you, you beleive this means that you can sit back and sin all you want. We have gone over this countless times and you still insinuate that I am one of those people or atleast you still won't acknowledge that I am not, when I have reputiated that premise for ever. I am a Christian with God living inside me and I hate those that call themselves Christians but wilfully and unrepentantly sin!

 

[norapture]

Most people get things confused by not knowing. That there is two kinds of works . The works of the law, where no man shall be justified. And the works of faith, where a man is justified.
And also there is a law of sin , and
the law of the Spirit.
For exexample the law of sin says thou shall not kill, but the law of the Spirit says if you hate your brother you are a murder
So Paul said with my flesh I will serve the law of sin, and with my mind I will serve the law of God.

 

[B-A-C]

You're still stuck on that? Ha. Not trying to be mean, but I truly do find that funny.

Romans 10
9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. 10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. 11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. 12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. 13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
​

Faith manifests itself in confession with our mouth. How can you say that someone who truly believes in their heart, and confesses with their mouth, and does not deny, that this is not sufficient? But we do see this verse:

Matthew 7
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​

How can both of these scriptures be true? One says that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. But the next shows people saying "Lord, Lord," who are clearly not saved.

If he doesn't want slaves, then why does he call us his slaves? What am I missing? I'm not a huge John McArthur fan, but the word for slave in the NT is pretty well defined by it's cultural context.

As far as Rom 10:13; goes. You get be saved without Jesus (I definitely agree with that). But Matt 7;21; says believing in Him alone isn't enough.

Usually in the New Testament the word slave comes from "doulos"

δοῦλος
doulos
doo'-los
From G1210; a slave (literally or figuratively, involuntarily or voluntarily; frequently therefore in a qualified sense of subjection or subserviency): - bond (-man), servant.

Which is also translated as "servant" in some Bibles. However I don't think the word "slave" is wrong. My point is
God wants willingly obedient slaves, not mind controlled zombie slaves.

 

[B-A-C]

Do you beleive in the Trinity? If you do, how can you say that there is a difference between jesus and the Holy spirit. How can you limit such an omnipotent God?
You admittenly added the word alone to scripture and then say I did the same thing. Please show me where I added a word to the scripture I gave you?! Who said that jesus is controlling our actions...it certainly wasn't me?!
Again, "by grace alone" would be satanic, if like you, you beleive this means that you can sit back and sin all you want. We have gone over this countless times and you still insinuate that I am one of those people or atleast you still won't acknowledge that I am not, when I have reputiated that premise for ever.
I am a Christian with God living inside me and I hate those that call themselves Christians but wilfully and unrepentantly sin!

I believe in the trinity, both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God. But Jesus is definitely not the Holy Spirit.

 

[RJ]

I believe in the trinity, both Jesus and the Holy Spirit are God. But Jesus is definitely not the Holy Spirit.

Dear brother, please , no offense but this is why I have the hardest of times making sense in what you beleieve.
Acts 2:17
"'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”
Colossians 2:9
For in him the whole fullness of deity dwells bodily
John 1:1
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
These scriptures and many others show that Jesus is God. You say you believe in a Trinity, an unbroken holy triangle and scripture says that God pours out his spirit, the Holy Spirit. The scripture says that Jesus is God yet you deny that Jesus is the Holy Spirit. Who can say, like any of God's miracels, how they occur. Other than scripture, the most important element to knowing this truth is simple faith. God hasn't given you this faith?

 

[RJ]

Most people get things confused by not knowing. That there is two kinds of works . The works of the law, where no man shall be justified. And the works of faith, where a man is justified.
And also there is a law of sin , and
the law of the Spirit.
For exexample the law of sin says thou shall not kill, but the law of the Spirit says if you hate your brother you are a murder
So Paul said with my flesh I will serve the law of sin, and with my mind I will serve the law of God.

For the most part, I am encourage that we finally agree on something. One caveat though: The works of faith and justification only come after salvation by grace.

 

[rizen1]

I am a Christian with God living inside me and I hate those that call themselves Christians but wilfully and unrepentantly sin!

1 John 3:15 (ESV)
Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him

Please choose your words wisely.