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Born of the Spirit versus Born Again

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So what does a person mean when he says I am ‘born again’?
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Hi, KerimF
This is my first reply to a post, so please forgive any ignorance in formatting.
When I think about rebirth, I must also include thoughts about the death of the first me.
We can't be "reborn" while the first man...the one of the flesh...still lives.
We can't be two different people at the same time.
Rebirth happens after we are crucified with Christ, buried with Him, and raised with Christ to walk in "newness of life". (Rom 6:3-6)
Instead of carrying around the Adamic nature, we can carry the divine nature.
 
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Reborn refers to the second birth or born of the spirit of God....Jesus (Holy Spirit). This happens in this life and seals salvation. Once we die our physical death and because we are already "Reborn", we go to heaven. If you die physically and are not already reborn, you go to hell. There is no such thing as rebirth after your physical death.
 
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by living God's Will; that is by living the Divine Unconditional Love towards all others, starting from {Matthew 5:44-45}. It is as simple as this :smile:
As long as we love God first and foremost (before others).

Then grasp and agree that loving God is obeying His commandments.
 
Member
Hi, KerimF
This is my first reply to a post, so please forgive any ignorance in formatting.
When I think about rebirth, I must also include thoughts about the death of the first me.
We can't be "reborn" while the first man...the one of the flesh...still lives.
We can't be two different people at the same time.
Rebirth happens after we are crucified with Christ, buried with Him, and raised with Christ to walk in "newness of life". (Rom 6:3-6)
Instead of carrying around the Adamic nature, we can carry the divine nature.
Thank you for raising another crucial points.

On my side, Jesus came to tell me (or tell us, if you like) that if I perceive in me another living being other than my living flesh, I shouldn't be worried and think I am a weird person :wink:

As God let my parents help me get my living flesh, God's Spirit gave me also a fresh living soul. But I needed many years on earth since my birth before I was able to perceive, to a good extent, my personal existence then soon later my soul. We will see later how one can perceive the existence of his soul (born of the Spirit, hence it is not the known soul which is assumed giving life to the flesh made of inert substances).

Didn't Jesus have both; a human flesh as mine and Spirit/Soul when he was on earth? You may say He was so because He is the Son of God (by the way, Son of God is not Son of the Father :wink: as we may say this person is a son of evil though we surely don't mean he is the son of Satan :wink: We will also talk about this later).
And Jesus was talking about sons of God, sons of Heaven and even sons of the Father. So how could I live as Jesus did and be a son of Heaven with a living flesh only? If this is possible I wonder why it is not also possible for all other living things, as my pets, to be sons of Heaven? Is it so because humans are more intelligent than all other species and this gives their fleshes the ability to perceive Heavenly things? Nicodemus was surely not less intelligent than I.

In brief, the set of rules that defines a living flesh is different from the one that defines a soul (born of the Spirit).
The living flesh has to look for survival (in this world). To know how, God embedded in its cells the necessary instructions to help it achieve this goal so that it can better serve the world by building it and destroying it as well (starting from being selfish).
On the other hand, the living soul tries its best to be fed properly in order to survive in this world and for eternity. So Jesus came to tell me (tell us if you like) how, by using my mortal flesh, I can protect and feed my fresh soul. And as a king's baby will deserve being a prince later if he follows always the will of his father, also the soul needs to follow the Will of Heaven by living the Unconditional God's Love towards all others; as explained in {Matthew 5:45} for example.

By the way, my Muslim friends think they have to do their best in being obedient slaves of Allah (being a son of God is a blasphemy in Islam, also in Judaism perhaps) so that they can deserve to be Allah's guests in paradise after death. Naturally, they feel sorry about me since, as they believe, I will end up into Allah's hell while they will enjoy living, in paradise and for eternity, all the pleasures which were forbidden (by Allah) on earth.

As you see, the good news is that everyone is happy (or content in the least) the way he is and thinks. Isn't it a great wonder of our creation :smile:
 
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As long as we love God first and foremost (before others).

Then grasp and agree that loving God is obeying His commandments.
You raised an important point.

I wonder how a true love (joining two beings by an unlimited mutual trust) could exist between a ruling master and a slave obeying him.

Fortunately, God let my birth be in Syria where I was able to read Jesus teachings in Arabic first.
The English word 'commandment' is translated to Arabic by a word that sounds as an advice from a loving father addressed to his beloved sons.
So Jesus, I know, doesn't command in any way. Me too, I hurt my soul if I have to command, judge or even blame seriously anyone.

In fact, True Love and any Law (said of God or not) cannot coexist and be lived at the same time by the same person.

Imagine a husband who takes care very well of his wife tells her one day: "You know... You are a lucky woman because I obey my father always so that I deserve being one of his beloved sons. And one of his commandments/rules is to be a good husband as I do with you".
Is this wife really fortunate to have such a loving husband?
Well, I guess it depends on her deep nature... For example if she is a material girl, she is indeed very lucky :smile:
 
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Sorry... I will give you, since you asked for it :crying: , a clear extreme example in which {Matthew 5:44} could be applied.

One was born on a land on which he also lived for many decades.
Then, some foreign powerful/rich persons send their men from abroad to tell him to leave home for good because they found out that his land is the Promised Land offered to them by God (this also applies in the case of ISIS lately).
If this person of interest is a real disciple of Jesus, as I am, he would leave in peace (if he wasn't killed already) and asks the Father in Heaven to forgive them, as Jesus did on the Cross.

Are you ready to react the same way if something like this may happen to you?

I know it is a very rude example but Jesus was condemned and killed as if He were a dangerous criminal also in the name of justice, claimed being of God (besides being of Caesar).

Yes, anyone can say "Jesus is my Saviour", but living God's Love towards all others, here on earth, is not easy at all to most humans.
In this situation, although its tough to leave the land of my birth I would need to obey God, and He will either show me somewhere else to live or have mercy on me and let me stay.

I have to make sure that what has been claimed is true and not a lie but I would pray about it. Its not loving to fight your enemy in the flesh because we are not called to do that, we are called to repent of our evil ways and pray.

If my people who are called by my name, humble themselves seek my face and turn from their wicked ways and pray then I will hear from heaven and I will forgive their sin and heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
 
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Arguing changed vs born again is for me not the discussion we should be having. The real issue is once we are born again / changed are we always saved?
The true rebirth means that man has quit his sinful nature and obeyed Christ. But I would say that t goes beyond repentance but the instantaneous infusion of the Holy Spirit in us.
  • 2 Corinthians 13.5 Examine yourselves to see whether you are in the faith; test yourselves. Do you not realize that Christ Jesus is in you--unless, of course, you fail the test?
  • 2 Timothy 1:14 Guard, through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you.
  • Colossians 1:27 of whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.
  • John 6: 6-7 6 What is born of the flesh is flesh, and what is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, ‘You must be born from above.’
 
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Thank you for raising another crucial points.
On my side, Jesus came to tell me (or tell us, if you like) that if I perceive in me another living being other than my living flesh, I shouldn't be worried and think I am a weird person
You will have to supply a scriptural verse to back that up.

Didn't Jesus have both; a human flesh as mine and Spirit/Soul when he was on earth? You may say He was so because He is the Son of God (by the way, Son of God is not Son of the Father :wink: as we may say this person is a son of evil though we surely don't mean he is the son of Satan :wink: We will also talk about this later).
If Jesus wasn't the "son of the Father", who is God the father of?

And Jesus was talking about sons of God, sons of Heaven and even sons of the Father. So how could I live as Jesus did and be a son of Heaven with a living flesh only?
You can, only if you are reborn, and that by God.
My post #30 illustrated how He accomplishes that.

[QUOTEIn brief, the set of rules that defines a living flesh is different from the one that defines a soul (born of the Spirit).
The living flesh has to look for survival (in this world). To know how, God embedded in its cells the necessary instructions to help it achieve this goal so that it can better serve the world by building it and destroying it as well (starting from being selfish).
On the other hand, the living soul tries its best to be fed properly in order to survive in this world and for eternity. So Jesus came to tell me (tell us if you like) how, by using my mortal flesh, I can protect and feed my fresh soul. And as a king's baby will deserve being a prince later if he follows always the will of his father, also the soul needs to follow the Will of Heaven by living the Unconditional God's Love towards all others; as explained in {Matthew 5:45} for example.

By the way, my Muslim friends think they have to do their best in being obedient slaves of Allah (being a son of God is a blasphemy in Islam, also in Judaism perhaps) so that they can deserve to be Allah's guests in paradise after death. Naturally, they feel sorry about me since, as they believe, I will end up into Allah's hell while they will enjoy living, in paradise and for eternity, all the pleasures which were forbidden (by Allah) on earth.

As you see, the good news is that everyone is happy (or content in the least) the way he is and thinks. Isn't it a great wonder of our creation [/QUOTE]
The rest of your post just seems like a defense for NOT being reborn.
I pray that I am wrong.
 
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In this situation, although its tough to leave the land of my birth I would need to obey God, and He will either show me somewhere else to live or have mercy on me and let me stay.

I have to make sure that what has been claimed is true and not a lie but I would pray about it. Its not loving to fight your enemy in the flesh because we are not called to do that, we are called to repent of our evil ways and pray.

If my people who are called by my name, humble themselves seek my face and turn from their wicked ways and pray then I will hear from heaven and I will forgive their sin and heal their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14
Well said and I wish you will not have to face such hard temptations anytime in your life.

The only difference is that l don't oppose the aggressive will of those whom God created to play my enemies (even if I have all the means to defeat them) in order to feed more my soul with joy of the Divine Love despite the strong refusal of my mortal flesh. So I never need a master to command me (command as in the army) to react this way :wink:
 
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Well we not meant to oppose our enemies in the flesh but bless them that persecute you for Jesus' sake.
Jesus says the meek will inherit the earth, so even if they are aggressive, God will see that and He will decide what He wants done with the land ultimately.

It is hard to turn the other cheek at times and be long suffering. But this builds our character. Just trust God to know what Hes doing as Hes in control at all times.
 
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KerimF -

A number of posts ago you were asking about repentance... I myself was saved just over 2.5 years ago. Repentance means to change directions. It must be completely from the heart. The Lord knows more about you that you know about yourself - that I know as FACT. He knows your heart!

With that said, when I was saved through a mighty conviction of the Holy Spirit at just the right time, I -- with tears flowing freely -- told the Lord "that if you're real, please get me out of this situation and I will do whatever you want, go wherever you want, etc.. " -- I was truly sorry for my past screwups and wanted a completely new direction in my life and IF Jesus was real only He could do that. You know what? He did just that. I know that I'm considered a remnant believer -- a believer that has Jesus on our minds 24x7.. How are our faith walks different than other christians? I can't compare my walk with others and I believe we're told not to as each of us are on completely different paths. For me, intercession is a huge part of my life -- to the point that the Holy Spirit gets my up at 1:30am daily -- no alarm clock needed -- He wakes me and I spend my quality time with the Lord praying for others. I can't do any of this -- God gets ALL the glory. He's transformed my life... Without true heart-felt repentance, I personally believe that you can't be considered saved...

Speaking of science -- I have a BSCS (Bachelors degree in Computer Science) and have been doing software development for more than 30 years. For me everything must make sense (e.g. 1+6=7, 2+3=5). Faith walks don't make sense. The first time the Holy Spirit started teaching me it didn't make any sense to my scientific minded brain and eventually I just quit trying to figure it out after a few months (e.g. 5+6=91230 ???). The first lesson the Holy Spirit taught me was that He could do anything in my life -- including make me warm -- when I was cold and didn't have a coat and he whispered for me to pray "Holy Spirit, please keep me warm" and He did twice for almost 45 minutes. Things just don't make sense in the faith walk. I've heard things in the spirit realm that have awakened me bolt upright in the middle of the night. One night about 4-5 months ago I was awakened by the sound of a steam boat whistle. If you realized that I live in a desert area of California without any body of water within 10 miles of me, you'd understand a bit more.. I've been awakened by my cell phone ringing in the middle of the night on my night stand only to realize that it hadn't rung at all -- but the ringing was in the spirit realm. Don't try to make sense of anyone's faith journey. You can have every worldly degree possible for higher education but it's still not high enough. Trying to out-science God won't work.

Just my $0.02 worth which probably isn't much...
 
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@Psalm23Rick that's a wonderful testimony. You're right that we can't compare our walk with the Lord with others - John 21:22 always convicts me of that. I smiled about the alarm clock thing: when I need to be up at a certain time, I pray the night before that the Lord would wake me and sure enough, I never set an alarm.

I love this bit of advice, especially seeing you're a scientist: "Don't try to make sense of anyone's faith journey. You can have every worldly degree possible for higher education but it's still not high enough. Trying to out-science God won't work."

Your $0.02 on that one has to be worth at least $0.04.....

A thousand ''amens'' that God gets all the glory.

Welcome to the forum!
 

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