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Born of the Spirit versus Born Again

Discussion in 'Bible Chat' started by KerimF, Nov 13, 2017.

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  1. Those who read some of my posts used hearing me repeat the expression “Born of the Spirit” (besides “Born of the flesh”).

    Jesus mentioned the expression “Born Again” in one situation only. Jesus tried telling Nicodemus indirectly that it is ‘impossible’ for him (Nicodemus) to perceive heavenly things. Only those who are born of water (of the flesh) and of the Spirit too ‘may’ perceive the heavenly things and ‘may’, therefore, enter the Kingdom (realm) of God.

    So what does a person mean when he says I am ‘born again’?

    If I am not wrong, I noticed that “Born Again” is much like a ticket to join a certain Christian community (Denomination). It is short of “I admit I am a sinner and Jesus Christ is my Saviour (before God)”. Although I didn’t hear yet a Catholic believer saying “I am born again”, I guess admitting being a sinner who needs Jesus as his Saviour is also a prerequisite for being a Catholic believer.

    Since I knew Jesus in Spirit, I just learn from Him how to feed my soul for eternity. So as Jesus did, I can say to those with whom I live: “Which of you convinceth me of sin?” For instance, being good, mainly when one has the right not to be so (based on men’s justice), is also seen as sinning by those who have a flesh only to take care of. In many situations in my life, some persons tried to hurt me badly behind my back (as they told me later) to show (prove) me that being good 'always' is bad. Their reaction is indeed natural because living the 'unlimited unconditional’ love and care towards all others does contradict God’s instructions that their living fleshes should follow (for their survival in the least).

    On the other hand, a real scientist (a follower of Science) doesn’t need to belong to any scientific organization. He can take advantage of his scientific true knowledge and apply it while he is free and independent.

    Also a true disciple of Jesus Christ doesn’t need to belong (as a follower or master) to any organization formed in His name. Jesus, Himself, didn’t belong to any system (He didn’t specify a system being better than others) or put rules for his disciples to follow them while they were with Him or after Resurrection.

    Please note that, here, I am just exploring 'facts' which are all in God’s plan. This is why every person is content (satisfied) the way he is while he tries his best to fulfil (live) his main priorities in life; these personal priorities are different from one person to another if we look at their details.

    So while, in general, Christian believers look for Salvation in the afterlife through Jesus Christ, I personally see myself saved already by Jesus teachings from my ignorance; the natural common weakness I was born with.

    Finally, I will be real surprised if someone in the world (other than Jesus Christ) agrees on what I presented here.
  2. Then how come you a member of Talk Jesus? Didnt you JOIN this forum? Its pretty well organized. This is a community of believers. Arent we members of one another?

    ???? Also, I dont think many of us are catholic.
    Sent from a mobile device
  3. #3 B-A-C, Nov 13, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2018
    Jesus says it in John 3:3; and John 3:7; Peter mentions it in 1 Peter 1:3; and 1 Peter 1:23;

    I've gotten a dozen different answers here on TJ. I know what I believe... but it isn't always easy to explain.

    Hmmm... We can't get saved "in the afterlife". Once you die (physically) the decision is final.
    I would almost all Christians see themselves as "already saved". But again, another area of contention here is....
    We are simply saved by "knowing" the teachings. I would disagree... but others on here would agree with you.

    If you do a google search on "what does "born again" mean". You'll also get a dozen opinions.

    But I tend to go along with Billy Graham on this one.

    What is your definition of a born-again Christian?

    I believe that repentance is required. But not everyone believes that.
  4. Colossians 1: 26-27 26 that is, the mystery which has been hidden from the past ages and generations, but has now been manifested to His saints, 27 to whom God willed to make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles, which is Christ in you,
    It is very easy to explain!:

    • Being a believer does not mean you are "Born Again"...even satin believes in Jesus.
    • Mark 3:21 but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin." He who rejects the Holy Spirit!
    • Satin is guilty of the eternal sin, he has blasphemed the Holy Spirit, he has not received the mystery of Christ in him because he rejects Jesus Christ as a personal Savior!
    • A true Christian is "Born Again", they truly believe in the finished work in Jesus Christ and has received Christ's spirit in them!
  5. #5 Lanolin, Nov 13, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2018
    If you have the holy spirit dwelling in you. You are born again in spirit and definitely be literally born again after you die.

    Saved means you are saved from hell into heaven. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, we are born again into it.

    I wouldnt nitpick what some christians believe and then claim all christians believe something and then have the gall to say I'm not a christian cos I dont believe what some christians seem to believe.

    Dont base your faith on what other people believe. Base your faith on the rock that is Jesus Christ, who died and rose from the dead! Otherwise your faith is in vain.

    Catholics usually dont ever talk about being born again because their religion is quite different take on the bible.
    They will talk about being cradle catholics but they wont talk about being born again since many just grow up in that church from birth thats why they have infant baptism. If you become catholic later in life I dont know what they do but they seem to take classes in all the catholic rules and regualtions and rituLs and call it conversion. But seeing as they dont do full immersion baptism its not like what the Bible says what happens when someone repents and believes.

    So dont confuse catholic practices with what non catholics who are christians believe. Its very different. Just because its a big insitution doesnt mean it represents all of christendom.

    Up to the 1960s catholics couldnt understand their own church services as they were in latin and they didnt allow any translation! The english bible and other translations was actually banned in their own church. They didnt want anyone reading it for themselves except their ordained priests and popes.
    Sent from a mobile device
  6. #6 KerimF, Nov 14, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2018

    You are right, Jesus mentioned "Born Again" twice. But, as you know, He did it in one situation only when he was talking to Nicodemus.

    Yes it is organized but I don't see here a master (or masters) and followers ;)
    I also don't see thousands of people celebrating sort of religious ceremonies at certain times (on schedule) and in certain places (claimed being holy).

    This forum reflects better Jesus saying {Matthew 18:20}.
    Jesus knows already that more than 3 persons gathered at the same time cannot communicate with each other freely and equally.
    More than 3 means there will be a speaker (one in the least) and listeners ;) This situation tends to reflect Jesus saying {Matthew 6:5}.

    You are right, what is the use of knowing only?

    Even in science, just knowing how to do something without having the chance to take advantage of it by applying it in a useful way is equivalent to "not knowing". This is why I wrote on my first post:
    "Since I knew Jesus in Spirit, I just learn ('learn' here should be 'learnt') from Him how to feed my soul for eternity".

    Armed with all what I liked to know about my being/existence and the world as it is in reality (far from the great speeches; social, political and religious), I was able to feed and protect my soul despite all what is happening in the world and around me.

    I heard a lot of this word 'repentance'. I wonder what it does mean, speaking practically.

    I ask this because in my situation I have no reason to repent other than repenting when it happens I hurt someone due to lack of knoweldge about his personal nature.

    Thank you for raising this crucial point.
    Indeed, Jesus is very clear about it {Matthew 12:31} and {Matthew 12:32}.

    Now, here is the big question ;)
    Speaking practically, how does someone speak against the Holy Spirit (the Holy Ghost)?

    For instance, the 'practical' answer of this question leads us to also know why doing this has no chance to be forgiven anytime.
  7. Matthew 12:32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.
    Like I tried to say before but probably didn't do a good job....You will be forgiven for everything, including saying something against Jesus Christ. But, the unpardonable sin, (now and forever) is denying the Holy Spirit....or unbelief . For me it is actually a play on words, blasphemy of the Holy Spirit is rejecting Christ and not receiving the Holy Spirit in you or being "Born Again" as God promised. Man has until his dying breath to accept Jesus and receive Jesus inside him. A man who dies without Jesus in him is spiritually dead for eternity. Speaking against the Holy Spirit = rejecting the Holy Spirit = Dying as an unbeliever = Dead Spiritually
  8. If I understood you well, hearing someone saying 'I am born again', he means actually 'I will be born again after my death'.
    By the way, I didn't hear yet of believers (other than Christians) who are not sure they will be born again, in a way or another, if they succeed to please their god/idol; starting from the ancient pagans in Egypt for example .

    Surely, I am not a person who bases his knowledge on what other people believe or say :)

    On the other hand, I personally knew that Jesus came directly from the Will/Power that created me (me and the universe I am brought into) because I found out that He, unlike anyone else, knows already all about my deep nature, and, He also talked about whatever I discovered in my surroundings and even the world in general. In other words, I know Jesus now as I know myself. So even if the entire world may. someday, deny Jesus, I can't do it without denying myself first.

    Having faith is needed to those who are not sure yet about someone or something (so people may have faith even in scientific matters). For example, a little kid who doesn't perceive well even his own being likely finds himself having faith (a blind faith) in his parents. But, when this kid becomes a mature adult, his relationship with his parents will not need to be based on faith if he and his parents share a common knowledge.

    So having faith in Jesus is surely an important initial step. Since I wasn't smart enough, I needed about 30 years before leaving this step for good and know Jesus as I know myself.
  9. As you know, millions in the world would also join you and answer the way you do.

    But, as usual, you will hear from me a different answer which is not heard yet by most members here, if not all :)

    Exploring this very important saying/verse in English won't be easy for me to do since my English vocabulary is rather very limited.

    First, one may ask: "What does the Holy Spirit represent?" or "The Holy Spirit is about what?".
    For instance, if the Holy Spirit is not different from Jesus and the Father in Heaven, Jesus would say simply "Anyone who speaks a word against the Father in Heaven or against me will not be forgiven... ".

    On the other hand, it is natural to those who perceive in them a living flesh only not having a choice other than imagining, at best, the Will/Power that created them as being of ONE supernatural being. I mean they can't believe that it is possible for two independent beings to be unified perfectly and have, therefore, ONE Will and Power towards any outsider.

    In brief, the Holy Spirit is the Spirit that has the power, if accepted freely by two beings, to unify them and let them be seen by others as if they were just ONE (entity) not two anymore.

    So those who 'have' to deny the existence of the Holy Spirit have to live as all other living things do. They will simply follow God's instructions which are embedded already in their living cells to serve the world in one way or another (by building and destroying; as it is the case in the wild jungles).

    So even the 'simplest image' of the real Will/Power behind Creation had to be revealed by a being coming from Heaven directly. No man can do this job as perfect as Jesus did. In this simplest image of God, there is Jesus who took a human flesh to bring us the Truth and the Way to Heaven and be, therefore, the Light (the Light of knowledge needed by those who are born of the Spirit too). There is also the Father in Heaven representing another Heavenly being. Also in this simplest image of God (the Will/Power that created our universe), the Holy Spirit has unified Jesus and the Father in Heaven even before the Creation.

    Finally, I guess you know that faithful Jews and faithful Muslims for example have to see Trinity (Trinity means to me that God, in its simplest image, is the ONE Will/Power of the Father in Heaven and Jesus, unified by the Holy Spirit) as the worst blasphemy against God (seen by them as a Powerful Supernatural King looking for followers and/or slaves among humans who accept worshiping Him by obeying and glorifying Him).

    I hope now it is somehow clear why Jesus is specific in mentioning the Holy Spirit as being the main rock on which Heaven (God's realm) is based.
    • John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    • Genesis 1: 26 Then God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over all the creatures that move along the ground."
    • John 10:30 I and the Father are one.”
    • Genesis 1:2 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
    Who the Holy Spirit is or isn't has nothing to do with Matthew 12:32. There are 3 entities, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.... all God. Simply in this life (physical), you are "Born Again" when the Holy Spirit enters your body. If you are not "Born Again", you have rejected Jesus Christ and have not received the spirit of God in you. As in the above aforementioned verse, if you have done this rejecting, it is the same as speaking against the Holy Spirit.
    If you believe this, then we are in agreement....if you do not, then we will respectfully have to agree to disagree.
  10. #11 Lanolin, Nov 15, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 14, 2018
    Yep I think you are grasping it.
    See Nicodemus was confused and Jesus tried to explain to him. Can you be born twice, well if you believe, you can.

    But, not like Nicodemus was saying does that mean you go back into your mothers womb. I think he was making a joke.

    Born of spirit means you receive the holy spirit and become Gods child right.
    Jesus was saying born again meaning the same thing. But to differentiate between being born out of our mothers womb which is by flesh and blood, (the first time) to being born again (the second time) which is of spirit and water when we are baptised. After this conversation with nicodemus what did Jesus do, he went and baptised people.

    And so even when we die, we have hope of being raised cos our spirit will be raised just as Jesus was raised in the resurrection. This can also mean being born again. But that can only happen if we have received the holy spirit.

    I an trying to explain this best I can, in the bible, Jesus always said what he meant. But see nicdemus wasnt stupid but he was actually wanting to talk to Jesus and ask him something so he could ask a really silly question like this and Jesus would explain it spiritually. We are better off that its recorded in the bible all the questions people asked Jesus. Even if they were silly ones.

    Nicodemus had to sneak to see Jesus after dark so nobody would see him, cos he was a Pharisee and Pharisees were supposed to know everything about God. Lol. If you were a pharisee and asked Jesus a question (and there was nothing about God He couldnt answer...God being his Father of course!) the other pharisees would have made fun of him.
    Sent from a mobile device
  11. Of course Jesus and the Father are one. But how? By Magic? ;)
    Not by Magic or alike, they are ONE to us because they are perfectly unified by the Holy Spirit. Yes, it is as simple as this.

    Even on earth we may talk about the spirit of true friendship that unifies two independent free humans. In this case, it is possible, therefore, to label their union by one word. Even without the spirit of love (friendship), two earthly humans (who have only their living flesh to take care of) could represent one company based on a certain contract. Also these two partners could be contacted by an outsider (a client for example) by addressing just one of them or by using the name of their company.

    For instance, did Jesus say: "I and the Holy Spirit are one", "The Father and the Holy Spirit are one" or "The Father, the Holy Spirit and I are one"? He didn't.
    But, on the other hand, Jesus did say "... in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" {Matthew 28:19}... not "in the name of the Father, and of the Son" only.

    I am afraid that Trinity has to be a secret (Heavenly or not) to those who are created to be selfish always. But let us remember that selfishness is very important in life. It stimulates those who are created to serve the world so that they freely work hard in playing the role(s) for which they were brought into it (for which God created them).
  12. Catholics do believe you are a changed person when first you truly repent / join the church / or are changed if christened and brought up in the church. There is truth to it all.

    Arguing changed vs born again is for me not the discussion we should be having. The real issue is once we are born again / changed are we always saved?
  13. Hi Lalonin,

    You talk and explain very good.
    And if I understood well, it seems to me that you too had the chance to perceive that you are born again.
    So I am curious to know your answer of the following question :)

    Do you believe that one is supposed to defend his human rights, starting from self-defence (to save his life or of anyone else), or in {Matthew 5:44}.

    I think you agree with me that a person cannot believe both and, therefore, apply them simultaneously in his life if he is sincere with himself in the least.

  14. I wish you know that, after I discovered to a good extent how God created the real world, I ceased arguing about anything because I didn't meet yet even one person who sees himself wrong in what he believes or do. The beauty in life is that God let each person has always his good reasons to justify what he believes and does.

    By the way, I perceived the importance of Jesus message in my life since when I personally perceived my own existence, my individuality. Naturally this started when I was teen (about 14 years). It happened that I was brilliant in Math and alike (surely not in Literature :) ). This helped me see, even at early age, Jesus as my divine teacher though based on reason (logic) not faith.

    As the flesh needs bread (food) to survive, one's soul (if it exists) also needs to be fed, to survive now and for eternity, by living God's Will; that is by living the Divine Unconditional Love towards all others, starting from {Matthew 5:44-45}.

    It is as simple as this :)
    amadeus2 likes this.
  15. I agree for the most part... no one thinks they are wrong. But there are some who have changed their opinions and doctrines because of things written here.
    Even I have changed my mind a few times because of things written here.

    Now while I agree with you that God lets us chooses what we want to believe... I'm not sure I would call that "beauty". Muslims choose to believe in Allah,
    Some choose to believe In Shiva, or Buddha, or even "different" Jesus's. I personally have a hard time finding beauty in people choosing eternal death.
  16. Is this profitable? Perhaps... but as someone stated above... everyone thinks they are right. I have never seen anyones mind changed by these discussions.
    This has been debated here on TJ many times... (I wonder if I said a hundred times.. would it be an exaggeration?) and usually it leads to out right arguing
    and hard feelings.
    KingJ likes this.
  17. Sorry im not sure I understand your question can you give an example.
    People are naturally selfish and will defend their rights but christians are to lay their life down for others. The thing is some people wont accept they need a saviour. Some people are too proud!

    If we give our lives or surrender to God, He will give us eternal life. This is far greater eternal reward than any earthly life we can have. This eternal life, the gift of salvation, is deposited in US, even in our weak fleshy bodies once we believe. To be ready for the time God has appointed for each and every one of us. God starts a work in you and will bring it to its best if we cooperate with Him.

    We dont have any righteousness of our own, true righteousness comes from the Lord.
    Sent from a mobile device
  18. Sorry... I will give you, since you asked for it :( , a clear extreme example in which {Matthew 5:44} could be applied.

    One was born on a land on which he also lived for many decades.
    Then, some foreign powerful/rich persons send their men from abroad to tell him to leave home for good because they found out that his land is the Promised Land offered to them by God (this also applies in the case of ISIS lately).
    If this person of interest is a real disciple of Jesus, as I am, he would leave in peace (if he wasn't killed already) and asks the Father in Heaven to forgive them, as Jesus did on the Cross.

    Are you ready to react the same way if something like this may happen to you?

    I know it is a very rude example but Jesus was condemned and killed as if He were a dangerous criminal also in the name of justice, claimed being of God (besides being of Caesar).

    Yes, anyone can say "Jesus is my Saviour", but living God's Love towards all others, here on earth, is not easy at all to most humans.
  19. Since I ended up to believe that everything happening in the world has an important role or purpose that I may discover sooner or later (though perhaps I will not have time to do it always before my death), I see God's Plan everywhere anytime.

    Could life in the world go on for long without its various tiny living cells, plants or animals?
    Also, God creates the great majority of humans just to serve the continuity of their race.
    The importance of the human race is that it is possible for a few humans (say 1 per million) to be born also of the Spirit and, therefore, have the chance to live in a way to deserve being sons of Heaven, on earth and for eternity.

    OK... I see you are a bit surprised how it could be possible that God created the huge universe (or life on earth) just for a few beings who may join or not His Realm.

    As we will see, numbers are irrelevant here.
    What is the ratio of the human's number to the number of all other living things (cells, plants and animals)?
    It is very close to 0%.
    Would Earth be of the same importance if we remove from it just the human species forming this 0%?
    Earth would become much like any other inert planet despite the existence of life on it. (And we wouldn't be here talking about Earth :) ).

    Similarly, the ratio of the number of humans who may join God's Realm to the number of humans who have to serve the world could be also very close to 0%. But by removing the former ones, Earth would become a big wild jungle only which is controlled by intelligent beings till it will be destroyed completely.

    By the way, Mohammad Al-Kuraishi translated the essence of Judaism (and alike) to Arabic and called it Islam (an old social, economical, military, political system made in the name of Allah). Naturally, Islam as Judaism don't recognize the existence of the Holy Spirit; in Heaven or on earth (Well, Muslims are also told that Jesus was referring to Mohammad in {John 14:26} ). And the believers of both religions look for worldly treasures which are promised by God as presented in their holy books. But Mohammad was a bit smarter and told his followers that these treasures (and earthly pleasures) will be offered to them also in paradise after death, for being obedient slaves.

    After all, I found out that I became just a neutral observer in this world since I am not anymore of this world while I live God's Love (hence, too far from men's justice). Naturally I enjoy observing the world as if I am watching a great movie having all sort of characters playing their various roles with great talents. I do this while I recall {Matthew 5:45}.

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