Born Again, continued

[Bill]

1 Corinthians 12 talks about spiritual gifts. many gifts are listed and then vs 11 "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as HE wills. Discerning of Spirits is listed among these vs 10.
Spiritual gifts are given to each believer, but no one is given All the spiritual gifts. And they are to be used in conjunction with the local church and helping it to run smoothly. No one learns how to use all the spiritual gifts because no one Has all of them. 'we' don't Ask for any of them. They are Given as the Holy Spirit decides who He deems necessary.

I think you're getting 'spiritual gifts' mixed up with 'fruits of the Spirit'. These are found in Ephesians 5: 22 and 23. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control "

How can you make all these claims, " no one" this and that . Even before you stated things like "God never"
Am i to assume that you can make such a claim.

Would it be better to say , it has not happened yet. As Jesus embodied all the Gifts Himself, and He states in His own Words, others will come and do even greater wonders. Isn't He already inviting the idea others will embody all the Gifts as well.

Having the Gifts of the Spirit is a matter of faith.And comprehending how to use them even a greater faith. For you have to have faith to believe they will work. What did Jesus say about a town where few miricles came to pass. That town had no faith. (Everyone thought they knew Jesus)

 

[Sue D.]

@Bill -- You're taking Scripture and trying to 'rewrite' it to say what You want it to say. Not what it is actually saying.

Take another look at 1 Corinthians 12 -- vs 7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: vs 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the Spirit, to another faith -- to another gifts of healings, etc " It's saying that various individuals are given various gifts. It's comparing the church to the human body. Our bodies have all kinds of different parts. Each part is different -- each job is important to the well-working of the entire body. At the Most -- a body has two feet, arms, hands, eyes, ears, legs. The rest of the body has singular parts with singular jobs. Scripture says we need to be content with the gift / gifts that we are given. Not to be wanting More or the same as another person.

The problem that sometimes arises is when a person isn't using the gift that the Holy Spirit Has given them. Some of us are going to have gifts that are used in the background and some in the Foreground.

Well -- Scripture says that No one has All the gifts -- now -- it Might be the case that over the years -- a person will use One gift a lot and then in a different situation have Another 'gift' given to them to use.

And what makes you think that Jesus embodied all the gifts Himself? Jesus' 'job' while here on earth was to show mankind to the Father in heaven. That was through miracles. All sorts of them. And Jesus was The teacher. And He also was the Only One to die on the cross With our sins and die and be risen back to life And then after a bit to ascend back up to heaven to be seated at the right hand of God the Father. So -- we have Jesus -- the Son of God -- performing miracles and teaching.

Faith is one of the gifts listed. The Holy Spirit works in each person, individually. Just like salvation is in individual decision by the individual. so, it would appear that faith Is a gift given by the Holy Spirit.

We All need to let God's Word be the teacher and Not try to have it say things that it doesn't really say.

 

[Bill]

1 Corinthians 12 talks about spiritual gifts. many gifts are listed and then vs 11 "But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually as HE wills. Discerning of Spirits is listed among these vs 10.
Spiritual gifts are given to each believer, but no one is given All the spiritual gifts. And they are to be used in conjunction with the local church and helping it to run smoothly. No one learns how to use all the spiritual gifts because no one Has all of them. 'we' don't Ask for any of them. They are Given as the Holy Spirit decides who He deems necessary.

I think you're getting 'spiritual gifts' mixed up with 'fruits of the Spirit'. These are found in Ephesians 5: 22 and 23. "But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control "

For the betterment of the church is not stating one denomination. The church is the Children on God. They are everywhere.

You can not use the Gifts of the Spirit without Love. Not in the Lord at any rate. Those false prophets will teach the separation of the Gifts and Gods Love. And that thinking is retarded, how can anyone separate God from Himself. Its as foolish as saying Jesus and the Father are not One.

Just because you or i can not comprehend something of God, doesn't mean it can not happen. We must always walk in faith knowing all things are possible in God.

Let me add to that, (after reading someones post in another thread) All things of God's grace are possible in God.

 

[Bill]

@Bill -- You're taking Scripture and trying to 'rewrite' it to say what You want it to say. Not what it is actually saying.

Take another look at 1 Corinthians 12 -- vs 7 "But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: vs 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the Spirit, to another faith -- to another gifts of healings, etc " It's saying that various individuals are given various gifts. It's comparing the church to the human body. Our bodies have all kinds of different parts. Each part is different -- each job is important to the well-working of the entire body. At the Most -- a body has two feet, arms, hands, eyes, ears, legs. The rest of the body has singular parts with singular jobs. Scripture says we need to be content with the gift / gifts that we are given. Not to be wanting More or the same as another person.

The problem that sometimes arises is when a person isn't using the gift that the Holy Spirit Has given them. Some of us are going to have gifts that are used in the background and some in the Foreground.

Well -- Scripture says that No one has All the gifts -- now -- it Might be the case that over the years -- a person will use One gift a lot and then in a different situation have Another 'gift' given to them to use.

And what makes you think that Jesus embodied all the gifts Himself? Jesus' 'job' while here on earth was to show mankind to the Father in heaven. That was through miracles. All sorts of them. And Jesus was The teacher. And He also was the Only One to die on the cross With our sins and die and be risen back to life And then after a bit to ascend back up to heaven to be seated at the right hand of God the Father. So -- we have Jesus -- the Son of God -- performing miracles and teaching.

Faith is one of the gifts listed. The Holy Spirit works in each person, individually. Just like salvation is in individual decision by the individual. so, it would appear that faith Is a gift given by the Holy Spirit.

We All need to let God's Word be the teacher and Not try to have it say things that it doesn't really say.

Scripture never tells us that Paul was baptized a Christian. So how do we prove that. We prove it by Faith, as the Spirit acknowledges this in our hearts

 

[Br. Bear]

Greetings,

I keep getting reminded of this:

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Jeremiah 17:5

Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41

------------------

When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: and before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was an hungred, and ye gave Me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave Me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took Me in: naked, and ye clothed Me: I was sick, and ye visited Me: I was in prison, and ye came unto Me.
Then shall the righteous answer Him, saying, Lord, when saw we Thee an hungred, and fed Thee? or thirsty, and gave Thee drink?

When saw we Thee a stranger, and took Thee in? or naked, and clothed Thee?

Or when saw we Thee sick, or in prison, and came unto Thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me.

Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave Me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave Me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took Me not in: naked, and ye clothed Me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited Me not. Then shall they also answer Him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall He answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25:31-46

-------------------------

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7:15-23


Bless you ....><>

 

[Sue D.]

Bill -- no one is baptized a Christian. Baptism does Not make a person a Christian. A person accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and Then usually Wants to be baptized by immersion as an outward action observed by others to show what has already taken place in their heart. A person is born physically 1st and then realizes their need for salvation and is born-again , spiritually this time And Then baptized by immersion.

How do we know someone is a born-again believer -- by the fruits of it being shown in their lives. Those are the fruits of the Spirit from the Holy Spirit's having come to indwell them. And they also can share that info with others. But, the believer's life will show their inner belief.

 

[Sue D.]

For the betterment of the church is not stating one denomination. The church is the Children on God. They are everywhere.

You can not use the Gifts of the Spirit without Love. Not in the Lord at any rate. Those false prophets will teach the separation of the Gifts and Gods Love. And that thinking is retarded, how can anyone separate God from Himself. Its as foolish as saying Jesus and the Father are not One.

Just because you or i can not comprehend something of God, doesn't mean it can not happen. We must always walk in faith knowing all things are possible in God.

Let me add to that, (after reading someones post in another thread) All things of God's grace are possible in God.

We're talking about a local , New Testament-type of local church of believers. And , yes, they are all over the world.

And, yes, the 'love' chapter -- 1 Corinthians 13 vs 2 "And though I have the gift of prophesy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." That passage continues that 'love' is needed or all these things amount to Nothing.

vs 4 -7 describes 'love'
vs 8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophesies, they will fail' whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there are tongues, they will cease, whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away."

We are to be known by our love for one another. And That comes from God.

You also commented about those "teaching the separation of the gifts and God's love" being retarded , etc. So You are saying that we are supposed to be using all the gifts because we have all of them. Well -- as has been pointed out from Scripture -- That is not Scriptural.

 

[Bill]

We're talking about a local , New Testament-type of local church of believers. And , yes, they are all over the world.

And, yes, the 'love' chapter -- 1 Corinthians 13 vs 2 "And though I have the gift of prophesy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing." That passage continues that 'love' is needed or all these things amount to Nothing.

vs 4 -7 describes 'love'
vs 8 Love never fails. But whether there are prophesies, they will fail' whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there are tongues, they will cease, whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away."

We are to be known by our love for one another. And That comes from God.

You also commented about those "teaching the separation of the gifts and God's love" being retarded , etc. So You are saying that we are supposed to be using all the gifts because we have all of them. Well -- as has been pointed out from Scripture -- That is not Scriptural.

You take my words out of context.

Try quoting all i said.

I never said we have them all, the Gifts, Those are your words.
But they are all avalible.

You wont use them anyways. Especially Discerment. You are afraid to. Because you dont want to hear God answer my questions i gave Curtis.

For God to tell you i spoke the truth.

Lol. If you heard that, then you would also have to accept all i told you about pre trib rapture. And we know you dont want that wall to fall . Because that means you will also have to experience the tribulation.

You set your hope in a false fantasy. When it all should be in Christ.

 

[Bill]

Greetings,

I keep getting reminded of this:

Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.
Jeremiah 17:5

Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Matthew 25:41

------------------

When the Son of man shall come in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory: and before Him shall be gathered all nations: and He shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: and He shall set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left.
Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was an hungred, and ye gave Me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave Me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took Me in: naked, and ye clothed Me: I was sick, and ye visited Me: I was in prison, and ye came unto Me.
Then shall the righteous answer Him, saying, Lord, when saw we Thee an hungred, and fed Thee? or thirsty, and gave Thee drink?

When saw we Thee a stranger, and took Thee in? or naked, and clothed Thee?

Or when saw we Thee sick, or in prison, and came unto Thee?

And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these My brethren, ye have done it unto Me.

Then shall He say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from Me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was an hungred, and ye gave Me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave Me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took Me not in: naked, and ye clothed Me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited Me not. Then shall they also answer Him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

Then shall He answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to Me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Matthew 25:31-46

-------------------------

Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Not every one that saith unto Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of My Father which is in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Thy name? and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from Me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7:15-23


Bless you ....><>

I have used all these passeges since ive been here. I just dont say where they are from.

 

[Bill]

Bill -- no one is baptized a Christian. Baptism does Not make a person a Christian. A person accepts Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and Then usually Wants to be baptized by immersion as an outward action observed by others to show what has already taken place in their heart. A person is born physically 1st and then realizes their need for salvation and is born-again , spiritually this time And Then baptized by immersion.

How do we know someone is a born-again believer -- by the fruits of it being shown in their lives. Those are the fruits of the Spirit from the Holy Spirit's having come to indwell them. And they also can share that info with others. But, the believer's life will show their inner belief.

You answer your own statement.

We know someone is a born again by thier fruits.

This forum also shows those fruits. Now you can judge me all day long. But it wont change the fact of who i am, or my walk in the Lord.

Just because you dont understand me, and im not "normal" . Does not mean i am not Christian, and not filled with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Br. Bear]

I have used all these passeges since ive been here. I just dont say where they are from.

Yes, Bill. I must say i do that from time to time, if not more often.

Perhaps we ought rename the thread to 'Is Bill Born Again - continued' ?

Let us move on a little.
The reason i posted those Scriptures is two fold [at least] [i am reminded of the manifold riches...]

As one Member posted recently about the things we 'need' to do to be saved [sort of thing - on another thread] the question often arises about keeping the commandments [that Jesus referred to] and of course, grace.

In discussions recently with men local to me, we looked at all this and saw that Grace tends to be a 'blanket' word thrown over any and everything and has become another word used in christianese and churchianity yet the 'purer' meaning of grace doesn't and is not meant to do all that covering.

This might sound a little offensive to some [but not all] but are we missing a connection here to what Jesus 'requires' ?
We have to do, even though He has done. We can not do what He has done
So, we use two words to eliminate the problem we face in how that works...
one is faith and the other is grace.
If we toss them together and add a little love we will be set for life! [so they think]

Bill, you talk of discernment. Does that include unravelling what i wrote then? Or is that another gift? Sharpen me up... a little rusty and a bit of oil would be good, too.

There is one other verse [or passage] i left out for Ron..... later-ron. Verse 20 in the passage:

And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in Thy sight.
All things are delivered to Me of My Father: and no man knoweth Who the Son is, but the Father; and Who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal Him.

And He turned Him unto His disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: for I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them
Luke 10:17-24


Bless you ....><>

 

[Br. Bear]

But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, and easy to be intreated, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality, and without hypocrisy.
James 3:17

 

[Bill]

Yes, Bill. I must say i do that from time to time, if not more often.

Perhaps we ought rename the thread to 'Is Bill Born Again - continued' ?

Let us move on a little.
The reason i posted those Scriptures is two fold [at least] [i am reminded of the manifold riches...]

As one Member posted recently about the things we 'need' to do to be saved [sort of thing - on another thread] the question often arises about keeping the commandments [that Jesus referred to] and of course, grace.

In discussions recently with men local to me, we looked at all this and saw that Grace tends to be a 'blanket' word thrown over any and everything and has become another word used in christianese and churchianity yet the 'purer' meaning of grace doesn't and is not meant to do all that covering.

This might sound a little offensive to some [but not all] but are we missing a connection here to what Jesus 'requires' ?
We have to do, even though He has done. We can not do what He has done
So, we use two words to eliminate the problem we face in how that works...
one is faith and the other is grace.
If we toss them together and add a little love we will be set for life! [so they think]

Bill, you talk of discernment. Does that include unravelling what i wrote then? Or is that another gift? Sharpen me up... a little rusty and a bit of oil would be good, too.

There is one other verse [or passage] i left out for Ron..... later-ron. Verse 20 in the passage:

And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in Thy sight.
All things are delivered to Me of My Father: and no man knoweth Who the Son is, but the Father; and Who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal Him.

And He turned Him unto His disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: for I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them
Luke 10:17-24


Bless you ....><>

There is indeed discernment on many levels as you know full well.

I enjoy your humor on calling this thread "is bill born again" . I too laugh, and get frustrated. im sure you can tell .

Discernment its a Gift we grow into, as with all Gifts. It would be wonderful if we could understand the fulness of each upfront. But with all things , God likes to work with us slowly.

It is good to excersise our Gifts as well as our faith. Doent Paul tell us to fan into a flame our faith, for all the world to see.

I agree with you,

There are better things to talk on than where this thread had been walking

Peace in Christ Always my Brother

 

[Bill]

Yes, Bill. I must say i do that from time to time, if not more often.

Perhaps we ought rename the thread to 'Is Bill Born Again - continued' ?

Let us move on a little.
The reason i posted those Scriptures is two fold [at least] [i am reminded of the manifold riches...]

As one Member posted recently about the things we 'need' to do to be saved [sort of thing - on another thread] the question often arises about keeping the commandments [that Jesus referred to] and of course, grace.

In discussions recently with men local to me, we looked at all this and saw that Grace tends to be a 'blanket' word thrown over any and everything and has become another word used in christianese and churchianity yet the 'purer' meaning of grace doesn't and is not meant to do all that covering.

This might sound a little offensive to some [but not all] but are we missing a connection here to what Jesus 'requires' ?
We have to do, even though He has done. We can not do what He has done
So, we use two words to eliminate the problem we face in how that works...
one is faith and the other is grace.
If we toss them together and add a little love we will be set for life! [so they think]

Bill, you talk of discernment. Does that include unravelling what i wrote then? Or is that another gift? Sharpen me up... a little rusty and a bit of oil would be good, too.

There is one other verse [or passage] i left out for Ron..... later-ron. Verse 20 in the passage:

And the seventy returned again with joy, saying, Lord, even the devils are subject unto us through thy name. And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. Behold, I give unto you power to tread on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you.

Notwithstanding in this rejoice not, that the spirits are subject unto you; but rather rejoice, because your names are written in heaven.

In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank Thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that Thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in Thy sight.
All things are delivered to Me of My Father: and no man knoweth Who the Son is, but the Father; and Who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal Him.

And He turned Him unto His disciples, and said privately, Blessed are the eyes which see the things that ye see: for I tell you, that many prophets and kings have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them
Luke 10:17-24


Bless you ....><>

I was thinking , i should have started my first letter with the sounds of an oil can , "plucca , plucca " just to make your day.

Im laughing too hard , sorry

 

[Sue D.]

@Mr.Bear -- Grace is favor shown/ extended when it's not merited. And Not getting what we deserve. Grace -- God's grace -- because of our sinfulness we Deserve to go to hell / lake of fire and brimstone, Forever. But God commendeth His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Because Adam and Eve ate of that fruit -- they disobeyed God and they Deserved to die -- which they did -- as do we All , physically. It's the Spiritual part that can be hard to accept -- to understand -- it's that Jesus Christ did All that's necessary to accomplish our salvation. We acknow;edge our need For it -- in our heart -- that there is NOTHING besides the cross -- the blood that is needed -- and has already been shed for our sins -- Nothing more is needed. If a person died as soon as they talked / prayed through Jesus Christ to accept Him as their personal Savior -- never had a chance To be baptized by immersion -- that person would Still be going to be with Jesus Christ. One person said that because God knew that in their heart they Wanted to be baptized, that they were okay. and That was saying that if they Hadn't even Thought about baptism that they would be ending up in hell. Baptism does Not 'finish' our salvation. Baptism IS an outward act to indicate to others of the decision that has already been made inwardly. Now -- IF a person were on a deserted island -- by themself and accepted Christ would baptism by immersion Make any difference. There would be no one To make an outward action To. I supposed a person Could dunk themself under water and say 'in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit I baptize 'me' " but would it be Needed to complete their salvation? No. Because all of that was accomplished on the cross.

And, yes, there has been concern about Bill's salvation because he seems to feel that he was born again in his mother's womb -- and we know -- from Scripture -- that That does Not happen.

And the subject of Spiritual gifts. Now you say that a person can grow into them -- All of them -- If we want to -- but if we Don't Want to -- then it's being suggested that 'we' aren't living as complete a Christian life as we Could be.

Bill suggested that I have the gift of discernment -- well -- THAT is telling me -- the discernment -- is that you. Bill, are fooling yourself into thinking that you're born a believer. If people Were born-again in their mother's womb -- well -- it would be like being born into what this world Did start out as. The perfect environment that God originally created. And we Know that That is Not the case. Far from it. And, this is sounding Very blunt / harst -- but -- satan is having a field day with you. and you don't see it. Satan is feeding you a lie that you're very willing to listen to. You are doing a whole lot of 'good works' , but that doesn't earn you salvation.

No doubt there are thousands of people doing Lots of 'good works' , assuming they are in the process of 'getting saved', but they Aren't. And there are Also lots of born-again believers who Are doing lots of wonderful good works out of love for God with no thought that it would be helping their salvation. They are simply following the desires that God has placed in their heart To do.

 

[Bill]

@Mr.Bear -- Grace is favor shown/ extended when it's not merited. And Not getting what we deserve. Grace -- God's grace -- because of our sinfulness we Deserve to go to hell / lake of fire and brimstone, Forever. But God commendeth His love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Because Adam and Eve ate of that fruit -- they disobeyed God and they Deserved to die -- which they did -- as do we All , physically. It's the Spiritual part that can be hard to accept -- to understand -- it's that Jesus Christ did All that's necessary to accomplish our salvation. We acknow;edge our need For it -- in our heart -- that there is NOTHING besides the cross -- the blood that is needed -- and has already been shed for our sins -- Nothing more is needed. If a person died as soon as they talked / prayed through Jesus Christ to accept Him as their personal Savior -- never had a chance To be baptized by immersion -- that person would Still be going to be with Jesus Christ. One person said that because God knew that in their heart they Wanted to be baptized, that they were okay. and That was saying that if they Hadn't even Thought about baptism that they would be ending up in hell. Baptism does Not 'finish' our salvation. Baptism IS an outward act to indicate to others of the decision that has already been made inwardly. Now -- IF a person were on a deserted island -- by themself and accepted Christ would baptism by immersion Make any difference. There would be no one To make an outward action To. I supposed a person Could dunk themself under water and say 'in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit I baptize 'me' " but would it be Needed to complete their salvation? No. Because all of that was accomplished on the cross.

And, yes, there has been concern about Bill's salvation because he seems to feel that he was born again in his mother's womb -- and we know -- from Scripture -- that That does Not happen.

And the subject of Spiritual gifts. Now you say that a person can grow into them -- All of them -- If we want to -- but if we Don't Want to -- then it's being suggested that 'we' aren't living as complete a Christian life as we Could be.

Bill suggested that I have the gift of discernment -- well -- THAT is telling me -- the discernment -- is that you. Bill, are fooling yourself into thinking that you're born a believer. If people Were born-again in their mother's womb -- well -- it would be like being born into what this world Did start out as. The perfect environment that God originally created. And we Know that That is Not the case. Far from it. And, this is sounding Very blunt / harst -- but -- satan is having a field day with you. and you don't see it. Satan is feeding you a lie that you're very willing to listen to. You are doing a whole lot of 'good works' , but that doesn't earn you salvation.

No doubt there are thousands of people doing Lots of 'good works' , assuming they are in the process of 'getting saved', but they Aren't. And there are Also lots of born-again believers who Are doing lots of wonderful good works out of love for God with no thought that it would be helping their salvation. They are simply following the desires that God has placed in their heart To do.

Just for the record Sue, i mean no offense to you in my words. And i do think highly of you. But sometimes you jjust drive me nuts. And im sure i do the same to you.

The insparation to do for others , when its a good word ( even silly " plucca " ) , or taking of your own time (( to visit elderly, feed the hungry, cloth the naked ) or give the greatest gift ( your life ) . All these insparations come from the Holy Spirit.

Now im telling you, the pagan who never knew Christ in his mind, who was inspired by the Holy Spirit, who throws himself before the gunman . Who only is thinking of saving others. He was saved because his heart was circumcised

 

[Curtis]

1Co 13:3 What if I gave away all that I owned and let myself be burned alive? I would gain nothing, unless I loved others. (CEV)

Outward actions prove nothing whether someone has God living inside them!

You think outward actions are fruit, which they are not! The fruit of the Holy Spirit is......

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Thee things can be faked, and presented to others as real when the person does not really have them. (deception) Even Satan transforms himself into an angel of light! (2 Cor 11:14)

 

[Sue D.]

Bill -- you're free to share anything you want to with me. But That does not make What you're saying to be Fact.

The 'pagan' you mentioned. A pagan is thought of as someone who's lived in 'darkest of Africa -- along the Amazon River -- deep jungle existence'. Those people respond to whatever 'light' they are observing in nature. They look up in the heavens and see sunshine, observe thunder storms, the stars at night. What ever they observe in nature and realize that They aren't causing any of that. They attribute it to obviously something other then themselves. How they react / respond To it - does make a difference. They can be mad / curse the storms and the damage done or whatever. And then the missionaries arrive and tell them about God and His love and the cross. Some will accept and some will reject. And the missionaries are following the 'calling' they have from the Holy Spirit. The missionaries go to reach whatever people they come into contact with.

So -- the pagan -- it's Not knowing in your Mind that makes any difference. It's what's in your Heart that matters. So that pagan could throw himself in front of his fellow neighbors to spare them from a gunman. Great , he saved their lives -- but not because he was being inspired to by the Holy Spirit -- he was doing it out of concern for his neighbors. Did That action Save him. Not according to Scripture. That person was Not born with the Holy Spirit residing in him. No one is.
He Did voluntarily give his life for his neighbor -- but he was not Jesus Christ dying for them.

And in the wake of tornadoes , etc. family members do their best to shield others from dangerous debri , etc. with their own bodies. And the young parents who shielded their tiny baby from the bullets of that gunman. Saved their baby's life and died in the process. We'd like to think that they are in heaven and will be united with their infant in the future. Well -- maybe they Were born-again believers, their friends, relatives would know - probably. What makes The difference is where the individual places their faith. In Jesus Christ? or other things. The 'other things' won't save anyone.

 

[Sue D.]

1Co 13:3 What if I gave away all that I owned and let myself be burned alive? I would gain nothing, unless I loved others. (CEV)

Outward actions prove nothing whether someone has God living inside them!

You think outward actions are fruit, which they are not! The fruit of the Holy Spirit is......

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Thee things can be faked, and presented to others as real when the person does not really have them. (deception) Even Satan transforms himself into an angel of light! (2 Cor 11:14)

Curtis -- those very things are Not faked. A person's outward actions shows what's inside. My Bible has a footnote along with the 2 Corinthians 11:14 passage directing a person to Galatians 1:8 "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you that what we have preached to you, let him be accursed."

The Holy Spirit's indwelling us Does make the difference in a person. That is what happens at salvation. One of the things. It's the Holy Spirit that gives a person a new peace in the heart. And THAT cannot be faked. Those fruits of the Spirit.

 

[Curtis]

Curtis -- those very things are Not faked. A person's outward actions shows what's inside

@Sue Everything God does and his servants are faked by Satan and all of his servants. This has been happening from the very beginning.

2Co 11:13 For such men are false apostles [spurious, counterfeits], deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles (special messengers) of Christ (the Messiah).
2Co 11:14 And it is no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light;
2Co 11:15 So it is not surprising if his servants also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. [But] their end will correspond with their deeds.

You can bet your life these "masquerading" as the messengers of God are faking the gifts of the spirit, and the Holy Spirit's fruit he produces through them! How else could the Church be deceived into receiving them into their fellowship?

2Co 11:4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.

Gal 1:6 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
Gal 1:7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
Gal 1:8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Fake "works" (outward actions) that look holy, and just but are only the works of the flesh! Jesus said, "I never knew you"