Born Again? Are You a Son/Daughter of God?

[Bendito]

That makes Christian faith occult.

How so?

 

[regibassman57]

@David Young,

That makes Christian faith occult.

Why would you rationalize Christianity as an occult based on the understanding given of "born of water?"

 

[David Young]

If anything is supposed to be understandable but not by the intellect then it is by its nature occult.

 

[amadeus2]

John 1:11-13 King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

We've been given the power (authority) to become sons/daughters of God... How did you become a son/daughter of God? You believed on His name...Then...?
What does one do to become a son/daughter of God?


Galatians 3:26-28 Complete Jewish Bible (CJB)

26 For in union with the Messiah, you are all children of God through this trusting faithfulness; 27 because as many of you as were immersed into the Messiah have clothed yourselves with the Messiah, in whom 28 there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor freeman, neither male nor female; for in union with the Messiah Yeshua, you are all one.

So does this mean that baptism is not optional, but is necessary to becoming a son/daughter of God?

What thinkest thou?

The key to the born again question that I see is in what the word, "immerse" in Gal 3:27 means. It means complete covered as I understand it. I see here that people have considered both water baptism and born the Spirit baptism. The former is the carnal and/or temporal and is but a type or shadow of the real thing. Throughout the scriptures and throughout our natural or material world we see these types or shadows, but they are that. What we want is the real thing, which comes by immersing ourselves completely in His Spirit. Did Jesus need to be baptized in water?
Considering who he was and what he had not done as a man and what he already had, I would say no, but what did Jesus say?

"And Jesus answering said unto him, Suffer it to be so now: for thus it becometh us to fulfil all righteousness. Then he suffered him." Matt 3:15

Still it was simply Jesus showing us another type or shadow of the real thing. The real thing was that immersion into the Messiah, into the Holy Spirit. It was the Way to become like Him.

"But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." John 14:26

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

Remember also in the type or shadow picture of a natural child being born to its mother of flesh that the child is just that. The child is completely dependent. Good parents will teach the child to what it cannot do alone initially: walk, talk, eat, etc.

Similarly to fulfill I John 3:2 must we not eat and drink what Jesus told us...?

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." John 6:53

Those who believe eating a piece unleavened bread made from grain grown in the field or drinking grape juice or wine from the fruit of the natural should also consider just what flesh it we are to eat and what blood we are to drink.

 

[Bendito]

If anything is supposed to be understandable but not by the intellect then it is by its nature occult.

Occult deals with the supernatural....The Holy Spirit is certainly supernatural...Again You ARE a spirit, you have a soul, and you live in a body...What's so occult about a spirit talking to a spirit? Unless of course you talk with demonic spirits...The Holy Spirit is not demonic.

 

[David Young]

Occult simply means hidden.

If something in a faith can be understood purely by means of applying the intellect to it, it is not occult.
If it requires something hidden, e.g. some kind of supposedly supernatural guidance or revelation, avoiding contact with a particular opinion, waiting until you have experienced a certain life event, then it is occult.

 

[Bendito]

Occult simply means hidden.

If something in a faith can be understood purely by means of applying the intellect to it, it is not occult.
If it requires something hidden, e.g. some kind of supposedly supernatural guidance or revelation, avoiding contact with a particular opinion, waiting until you have experienced a certain life event, then it is occult.

Yes....occult means hidden. Just left that way, as you know, every time you played hide and seek as a child you were playing with the occult. Or the parts of the engine of your car, that you cannot see, are part of the occult. Not so.
Occult has to do with the spirit world, of which you are a part, the supernatural....The reason it's 'hidden' is because your physical side, which you so depend on, cannot see the supernatural, or only rarely....Come on, David. If you're going to be teaching you MUST teach the whole thing. Not just snippets.

 

[regibassman57]

@David Young,

Occult simply means hidden. If something in a faith can be understood purely by means of applying the intellect to it, it is not occult.
If it requires something hidden, e.g. some kind of supposedly supernatural guidance or revelation, avoiding contact with a particular opinion, waiting until you have experienced a certain life event, then it is occult.

If anything is supposed to be understandable but not by the intellect then it is by its nature occult.

Some explanations of definitions I can accept, but when it comes to "Spirit" vs "flesh" the flesh loses out. Believers are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. We as believers have the mind of Christ and nothing is hidden from us spiritually. We as believers die to the natural man, so, the occult is strictly speaking from a fleshly perspective though it's spiritual demons influencing it. We "do not" lean unto our own understanding (Pro. 3:5).

1 Corinthians 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

I don't think it's wise to believe or say that belief in Jesus is an occult. When Jesus enters a believer's heart, He is not a mystery. An awakening happens in our life and Jesus makes Himself known at the time of a believers transformation. It's up to the believer to walk in what they "know." Though a believer's life is a walk of faith, we develop from what is in us through the revelation of knowledge; not mysteries of demonic influences of lies. We as believers are "LED" in truth and we know all things because we trust in Jesus Christ, who is our life. Christ leads us where He desires for us to go in revealed knowledge. We are not led by our fleshly intellect through supernatural forces that have no idea of life. That's why it's a mystery to demons or those that follow. Believers are led by the Spirit of God. The definition of occult is only for those that are in the flesh. It is a fleshly term that does not apply to believers. The occult mindset is in self, a believers is in and of Christ.

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as Jesus Christ is, so are we in this world.

1 John 2:20
But you have an unction from the Holy One, and "you know" "all things."

 

[Bendito]

@David Young,




Some explanations of definitions I can accept, but when it comes to "Spirit" vs "flesh" the flesh loses out. Believers are not in the flesh but in the Spirit. We as believers have the mind of Christ and nothing is hidden from us spiritually. We as believers die to the natural man, so, the occult is strictly speaking from a fleshly perspective though it's spiritual demons influencing it. We "do not" lean unto our own understanding (Pro. 3:5).

1 Corinthians 2:16
For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.

I don't think it's wise to believe or say that belief in Jesus is an occult. When Jesus enters a believer's heart, He is not a mystery. An awakening happens in our life and Jesus makes Himself known at the time of a believers transformation. It's up to the believer to walk in what they "know." Though a believer's life is a walk of faith, we develop from what is in us through the revelation of knowledge; not mysteries of demonic influences of lies. We as believers are "LED" in truth and we know all things because we trust in Jesus Christ, who is our life. Christ leads us where He desires for us to go in revealed knowledge. We are not led by our fleshly intellect through supernatural forces that have no idea of life. That's why it's a mystery to demons or those that follow. Believers are led by the Spirit of God. The definition of occult is only for those that are in the flesh. It is a fleshly term that does not apply to believers. The occult mindset is in self, a believers is in and of Christ.

1 John 4:17
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as Jesus Christ is, so are we in this world.

1 John 2:20
But you have an unction from the Holy One, and "you know" "all things."

When you share your "wisdom" I wish you would take the whole Word into account instead of only the verses that back up your opinions.

 

[regibassman57]

@Bendito,
Are you referring to the post when I used 1Corintians 12 and you started talking crazy because you felt I didn't know what I was talking about? Are you talking about the scriptures I used to make MYYYYYY.... point? Then after I used more of the scriptures in context - you said "OK" - because I got your approval? You soooo craza...

 

[regibassman57]

@Bendito,
Also Bendito, if I use any scripture to make my point and I use it out of context, just text me and reveal my errors. That would be helpful.

 

[Bendito]

@Bendito,
Are you referring to the post when I used 1Corintians 12 and you started talking crazy because you felt I didn't know what I was talking about? Are you talking about the scriptures I used to make MYYYYYY.... point? Then after I used more of the scriptures in context - you said "OK" - because I got your approval? You soooo craza...

LOL

 

[Bendito]

@Bendito,
Are you referring to the post when I used 1Corintians 12 and you started talking crazy because you felt I didn't know what I was talking about? Are you talking about the scriptures I used to make MYYYYYY.... point? Then after I used more of the scriptures in context - you said "OK" - because I got your approval? You soooo craza...

I was referring to your latest...#28 You only used verses to back up your opinion but you should have used the other verses too...that would have changed your answer though.
You said nothing about how we have to learn to walk in the Spirit. Nothing is automatic in a Christians life, nothing at all...Else why does Paul have to remind us to walk by the Spirit. We have also to learn to listen to the Spirit, learn His voice...We must learn to put aside our own silly thinking and put on the mind of Christ. You would rather teach an incomplete Word and thereby deceive those who are just starting on their walk with Him?

 

[regibassman57]

@Bendito,

I was referring to your latest...#28 You only used verses to back up your opinion but you should have used the other verses too...that would have changed your answer though

I write my post and use scriptures to back them up to my point; that's the norm? My answers don't change when I'm presenting concrete facts. A concrete fact is we have the mind of Christ. Another concrete fact is as Christ is so are we in this world. Can these verses be used to bring out other points? Of course - but it doesn't make it incorrect in my usage of these scriptures.

 

[Bendito]

@Bendito,


I write my post and use scriptures to back them up to my point; that's the norm? My answers don't change when I'm presenting concrete facts. A concrete fact is we have the mind of Christ. Another concrete fact is as Christ is so are we in this world. Can these verses be used to bring out other points? Of course - but it doesn't make it incorrect in my usage of these scriptures.

As I just said, nothing comes automatically. We have to learn to walk in it. It does not just fall on us, or we just fall into it. We have to learn to walk in the Spirit...You forget that, else why do we have to be reminded?

 

[regibassman57]

@Bendito,
I believe there are many points that can be made using the scriptures in post 28, but it wasn't for me to make any other points. Automatically walking in the mind of Christ had nothing to do with my reply to Daniel. I was only replying to the definition and how Daniel used it.

 

[Dovegiven]

@Bendito,

Born Again= Putting on Incorruptible Seed
----------------------------------------

Born Again = of water and of the Spirit

of water = living waters = Mind of Christ

of the Spirit = God who is a Spirit and God of The Living
---------------------------------------------------

So Born Again = Putting on The Incorruptible Seed of The Son and The Father

Agreed. Making the first condition of being born again is to first be born of a woman? Not so. The plumbers union might strangely require "A man must first be born of a woman to be a plumber's apprentice." That would have to be a pre-condition for every human tward any purpose. The only value I can see for that use of "born of water" is to exclude cloned humans. The "water" is the water of the Word, which washes us clean.
Ephesians 5:21-27 (KJV)
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

It can only refer to the first requirement of hearing the gospel preached. The process continues with believing it or not. Then comes a confession of the mouth unto salvation, or condemnation for the unbeliever. Upon those conditions the Holy Spirit effects a rebirth of the spiritman in the believer. Next, perhaps decades later, that born again believer may be filled with the Holy Spirit with signs of utterance of the mouth, whether tongues and/or prophecies.

The first work of being born again, though, is making that confession physically attested to by being baptized in water as attested to by John the Baptist, fulfilling righteousness by the significance of that event, that is, what it stands for, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, to which the believer has experience with Christ by faith.

 

[Bendito]

Agreed. Making the first condition of being born again is to first be born of a woman? Not so. The plumbers union might strangely require "A man must first be born of a woman to be a plumber's apprentice." That would have to be a pre-condition for every human tward any purpose. The only value I can see for that use of "born of water" is to exclude cloned humans. The "water" is the water of the Word, which washes us clean.
Ephesians 5:21-27 (KJV)
21 Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God.
22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.
25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

It can only refer to the first requirement of hearing the gospel preached. The process continues with believing it or not. Then comes a confession of the mouth unto salvation, or condemnation for the unbeliever. Upon those conditions the Holy Spirit effects a rebirth of the spiritman in the believer. Next, perhaps decades later, that born again believer may be filled with the Holy Spirit with signs of utterance of the mouth, whether tongues and/or prophecies.

The first work of being born again, though, is making that confession physically attested to by being baptized in water as attested to by John the Baptist, fulfilling righteousness by the significance of that event, that is, what it stands for, the death, burial and resurrection of Christ, to which the believer has experience with Christ by faith.

The point is....Being born physically then still needing to be born of the spirit...Politics has nothing to do with it.

 

[regibassman57]

@Dovegiven,
I can definitely "AGREE" that the "washing of water by the word" and baptism of the Holy Ghost is the complete born again experience. Jesus said without these a man cannot see the Kingdom of God. It seems Jesus is talking about the "complete" process of obtaining Eternal Life.

1 John 2:29
If you know that he is righteous, you know that every one that "DOES" righteousness is born of him.

 

[David Young]

It's perfectly true that what is under the bonnet of a car is occult until the bonnet is lifted, as is the case for anything being sought before it has been found.

The word is often used in a narrower sense in the world of religious faith in order to categorise various beliefs and practices, often with a view to describing a particular faith as something 'non-occult' by contrast.

However, it is perfectly appropriate to apply the term to various forms of Christianity. There are two rival approaches to the Bible which different groups of Christians take:

The first is that whatever message it contains can be explained rationally, and this tends to be less anti-intellectual. This is because such Christians have little to fear from hearing rival opinions, as they regard the true one to be the one which stands up best when subjected to critical examination.

The second involves a supposedly divine helping hand, e.g. 'You need the Spirit to show you', which is every bit as occult as any tuppence-ha'penny cult or sect making a rival claim.

At the end of the day, there is no definite, unquestionable definition of 'born of water'.