Born again and Baptism, What's the connection?

[Butch5]

Reading this as 'truly, truly I say to you today,' doesn't sit well with the story in which it is found. It's a phrase that used to emphasise urgency and immediacy. But it's part of an exchange between two men who were being executed, with hours or minutes left to live. Why would Jesus emphasise 'today' to a man who certainly would not be alive on earth tomorrow?

I understand that it's a possible way to read the text, but it seems vanishingly unlikely to me.

HI Hekuran,

I think we read it rather dispassionately. Imagine the thief is dying on the cross. He's in agony not knowing if he will end up in the Kingdom or in the Lake of Fire. Jesus says to this dying agonizing man, I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise. The thief can now go to his death with the assurance that he will wake up in the Kingdom and not the Lake of Fire. I think it is a beautiful thing that Jesus did here, relieving the mind of this man so that he could die in peace. In other words Jesus was rendering His judgment on this man that day rather than on judgment day. The thief wouldn't have to die wondering. After all he was dying for being a thief, a sinner.

To me this is the only plausible explanation as saying the thief would be alive later as a spirit doesn't jive with Scripture.

 

[Trevor]

Is the placement of this comma really that important, or when the thief would be with Him in paradise? With the LORD, one day is a thosand years and a thousand years one day. We thought the thread is supposed to be about baptism and being born again. In respect to your question, GOD is the Savior of ALL men, until we ALL come to a knowledge of the Son and the fullness of His stature (image of invisible GOD), for HE has made ALL things beautiful, in HIS time. The LORD is not willing that any perish, but that all come to repentance, for He Who began a good word in us will complete it, from glory to glory our spiritual growth is asymtotic; ever more like GOD, but only GOD is GOD... We can be in heaven, even while in/on earth, for GOD is IN US and we are IN GOD.

Take care, and may GOD bless,............

Every word, and every punctuation in scripture is like an atomic bomb in spiritual warfare. Jesus when tempted by Satan himself used nothing but the written word to defeat him. To make light of the written word of God is folly. Bless you

 

[Born Again 2004]

Since we are taking in to account, plusabilities....I think it is plausible, since the Thief was going to die , become spirit, and in the spirit world there is no time as we know it, because of the Thief's faith in Jesus, he would be in heaven with Jesus that day!

 

[Butch5]

Since we are taking in to account, plusabilities....I think it is plausible, since the Thief was going to die , become spirit, and in the spirit world there is no time as we know it, because of the Thief's faith in Jesus, he would be in heaven with Jesus that day!

I don't think that's plausible given other passages of Scripture

 

[Born Again 2004]

No comment. Unless you want to post some of those "other" scriptures to the contrary?

 

[Born Again 2004]

What......no scripture?!

 

[Butch5]

What......no scripture?!

Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have. And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet. Luke 24:39-40 KJV

 

[Born Again 2004]

You poor man..
You just don't get it....
He was telling / showing the Apostle's His (New) Ressurected body..the first one and we will all have one. The only way to explain the Ressurected body, is that it is part spirit and part body...He walked through walls , had holes in His hands, yet they touched him and He ate with them..
Sorry, try again...this verse supports my plausibility!

 

[Butch5]

You poor man..
You just don't get it....
He was telling / showing the Apostle's His (New) Ressurected body..the first one and we will all have one. The only way to explain the Ressurected body, is that it is part spirit and part body...He walked through walls , had holes in His hands, yet they touched him and He ate with them..
Sorry, try again...this verse supports my plausibility!

Did you read the part where He said a spirit does not have flesh and bone?

 

[Born Again 2004]

Yes, that's pretty obvious. Like I said, you don't have a clue do you?
1 Corinthians 15:35-58

 

[Hekuran]

Since we are taking in to account, plusabilities....I think it is plausible, since the Thief was going to die , become spirit, and in the spirit world there is no time as we know it, because of the Thief's faith in Jesus, he would be in heaven with Jesus that day!

You're forgetting that none of the Bible writers encourage anyone to put their hope in going to heaven. Not in one single place. All the emphasis is on looking forward to the resurrection.

Look at the key passages - Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 15. It's crystal clear.

 

[Hekuran]

HI Hekuran,

I think we read it rather dispassionately. Imagine the thief is dying on the cross. He's in agony not knowing if he will end up in the Kingdom or in the Lake of Fire. Jesus says to this dying agonizing man, I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise. The thief can now go to his death with the assurance that he will wake up in the Kingdom and not the Lake of Fire. I think it is a beautiful thing that Jesus did here, relieving the mind of this man so that he could die in peace. In other words Jesus was rendering His judgment on this man that day rather than on judgment day. The thief wouldn't have to die wondering. After all he was dying for being a thief, a sinner.

To me this is the only plausible explanation as saying the thief would be alive later as a spirit doesn't jive with Scripture.

Sure. I think we're agreed that Jesus was definitely *not* saying that the thief shouldn't fear death because his spirit would live forever in heaven.

My best understanding is that the 'today' should be understood as 'immediately'. That is, as he breathes his last, the thief's next conscious moment will be in paradise.

 

[Butch5]

Sure. I think we're agreed that Jesus was definitely *not* saying that the thief shouldn't fear death because his spirit would live forever in heaven.

My best understanding is that the 'today' should be understood as 'immediately'. That is, as he breathes his last, the thief's next conscious moment will be in paradise.

Hi Hekuran,

I agree that when he breathes his last breath his next conscious moment will be in Paradise. However, I don't believe it would that day. Rather it would be at the resurrection.

Let me preface that statement by saying, I believe the thief's next conscious moment would be in Paradise if the judgment is in Paradise. I should more accurately say the thief's next conscious moment would be at the resurrection.

I see it as Jesus emphasizing that He is rendering His Jidgment "that day", today, as opposed to making the thief wait until judgment day to find out his fate.

We even use similar language today. How many times have we heard a parent say something to a disobedient child akin to, "I'm telling you right now, if you don't get over here I'm going to..."?

 

[Hekuran]

Hi Hekuran,

I agree that when he breathes his last breath his next conscious moment will be in Paradise. However, I don't believe it would that day. Rather it would be at the resurrection.

Let me preface that statement by saying, I believe the thief's next conscious moment would be in Paradise if the judgment is in Paradise. I should more accurately say the thief's next conscious moment would be at the resurrection.

I see it as Jesus emphasizing that He is rendering His Jidgment "that day", today, as opposed to making the thief wait until judgment day to find out his fate.

We even use similar language today. How many times have we heard a parent say something to a disobedient child akin to, "I'm telling you right now, if you don't over here I'm going to..."?

OK. that's an interesting take I'd not thought of before. Whichever, I think we are agreed on the fundamentals here.

 

[Born Again 2004]

You're forgetting that none of the Bible writers encourage anyone to put their hope in going to heaven. Not in one single place. All the emphasis is on looking forward to the resurrection.

Look at the key passages - Romans 8, 1 Corinthians 15. It's crystal clear.

Colossians 1:27
What is your explanation of hope of glory?
You posted it, please explain Romans 8:1

 

[Hekuran]

Romans 8:1 'There is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.' It says what it means. I don't know that I could add anything in terms of comment that would make it clearer.

The hope of glory. A little later in Colossians, Paul returns to the idea of glory Colossians 3:1

For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

'When Christ who is your life appears' is speaking of Jesus promised return. 'you also will appear with him in glory' -- in a twinkling of an eye we will be transformed from our present bodies that are bound to death and decay to glorified bodies clothed with immortality.

That, I think, is what Paul had in mind with the phrase 'hope of glory'.

 

[Born Again 2004]

You said it is crystal clear? Roman's 8:1 is crystal alright: with Jesus in you," Born Again", is the only way to enter God's Kingdom, this hope of glory for all who believe and are saved, in the meantime, since Jesus is in us, therefore there is no condemnation while we are in this realm and into the next!

 

[Butch5]

How is Jesus in you?

 

[Born Again 2004]

Romans 8:10
2 Corinthians 4:6-7
Galatians 1:15-16
Galatians 2:20
Galatians 4:19
Colossians 1:27
Romans 4:6-7
1 Corinthians 6:15-20
There are many many more!
Jesus is God, God is the Holy Spirit...they are 3 in 1...called the Trinity. When you believe, you are given the Holy Sprit to reside in you, Jesus..."Born Again! If you don't believe in this then you are not Christian !

 

[Butch5]

Romans 8:10
2 Corinthians 4:6-7
Galatians 1:15-16
Galatians 2:20
Galatians 4:19
Colossians 1:27
Romans 4:6-7
1 Corinthians 6:15-20
There are many many more!
Jesus is God, God is the Holy Spirit...they are 3 in 1...called the Trinity. When you believe, you are given the Holy Sprit to reside in you, Jesus..."Born Again! If you don't believe in this then you are not Christian !

Are you saying if you don't believe the Trinity doctrine you're not a Christian?