The person wasn't a friend of mine, I didn't know him. He introduced himself, saying hello Brothers and Sisters. He repeatedly stated his faith in Christ and was very polite and agreeable. I wrote back 'hi' and then checked on him again after a week and found him in apologetics. I scoured all his posts to see what he had said but there was honestly nothing. He is a Bible believing young Christian who wanted to learn and grow. I fought for him through PMs for 3 days and then gave up.
Pre-trib rapture theory was created to give "Christians" a warm fuzzy feeling. It is 100% unfounded in the scriptures and even Paul himself says it is a bunch of lies.
2 THESSALONIANS 2:3
"Don’t be fooled by what they say. For that day will not come until there is a great rebellion against God and the man of lawlessness is revealed—the one who brings destruction."
Paul write this letter to the church of Thessalonica because there was a bunch of rumors and crazy theories going on that the rapture had already occurred, and that they were living in the tribulation period. So Paul rights this letter to them to clear things up and assure them that the rapture has not occurred, and then he tells them TWO things that must first come to pass before the rapture!
1) There must be a great falling away!
2) The man of sin (the Antichrist) must be revealed FIRST!
According to Daniel 9:27, the Antichrist will be revealed when he breaks the 7 year peace treaty with Israel. Since the Antichrist will be revealed at this point, Paul is saying that the rapture occurs AFTER the middle of the 7 year tribulation! Wake up people, make sure your lamps are full of oil, and I don't mean that in a spiritual way only. There are going to be rough times ahead so be prepared.
Proverbs 22:3
"A wise person foresees danger and takes precautions. The simpleton goes blindly on and suffers the consequences."
Kinjaffa, Actually Jesus says the rapture is our blessed hope.
You have a complete misunderstanding of II Thessalonians 2...
Paul in verses 1-12 is addressing a false letter that has circulated among the church at the time. The folks in the church are afraid they are already in the tribulation and Paul reassures them they are not because thery are still here since the great apostasy and AC are not yet on the scene.
He then goes on in verse 7 to drive this point home by telling them the AC can not be revealed until the Holy Spirit is removed from the world via the removal of the church.
The Bride is in heaven during the tribulation at the wedding supper of the lamb.
The great tribulation is God's wrath being poured out on a rebellious world and an unrepentant Israel. It is designed to turn them to God one last time. This wrath is not for the Bride/church. Daniel also makes it clear the last 7 years (70th week) is for Israel and not the church.
The post tribulation is totally unsustainable if Scriptue is read literally. Only allegorizing the Word and then twisting it to say what you want allows for a conclusion other than a pre-trib. The rapture was most assuredly taught by Paul.
You will be pleasantly surprised if you are a washed in the blood believer that you you have misunderstood the promise of God to the church regarding the rapture. It is our blessed hope.
Jesus said, "When you see these things take place, look up, for your redemption draws nigh"
The pre-trib rapture is the only view that allows for the scripturally taught concept of an imminent return of Jesus. He comes as a thief in the night which means it is a surprise. It could not be a suprise once the AC is revealed.....could it?
Why the hostillity to this point of view? My only hostility is too the folks who promote "replacement theology" closely aligned with a post trib view point. It is mainly taught by the catholics, mormons, cults, and dead main line denominations.
If you want to argue with what Paul said in verse 3, then go ahead. It is foolish but it is your own choice.
You said, "He then goes on in verse 7 to drive this point home by telling them the AC can not be revealed until the Holy Spirit is removed from the world via the removal of the church. "
Prove to use that he means "the removal of the church".
Also, keep in mind what YESHUA said in the Olivet discourse in Luke 21, Matthew 24 and Mark 13. Jesus says repeatedly that the church will ENDURE UNTIL THE END. How on earth can the church possibly endure until the end if they are raptured before all the bad stuff goes down? DO you call Yeshua a liar?
This forum is one to avoid
Related article:
A "Christian" Pre-Trib Message Board Run By Satan's Workers. The purpose of this article is to expose some of the ways a large, allegedly Christian Pretrib message board whose aim is to supposedly make believers "Rapture Ready" is being used to undermine and neutralize the faith of Christians rather than build them up in the most holy faith. This particular "Christian" forum is administrated by people who have a satanic agenda. By no means is this the only one; there are many more. The things they do to destroy the faith of Christians and to intimidate real Christians from speaking out for the truth of the Bible is outrageous.
I have watched them for a long time and can see that they have a consistent pattern of promoting ungodly values . They are so intent on this mission that they ridicule, intimidate, and ban anyone who posts documentation to try to counteract their anti-Christian agenda.
No Public I.P's: Administrators Use Aliases To Control The Tone of the Forums
This forum does not use IP's to identify posters so that any reader can verify that each user name is indeed connected to one individual poster. The practice of not displaying IP's enables the administrators to use several aliases so as to gain the appearance of an ungodly liberal majority where none exists in actuality. Their use of aliases serves to convince the readers of their forum that it is perfectly normal for a Christian to live his life conforming to the world and yielding to the lusts of the flesh. After all, the saints of God are saved by grace so holy living is irrelevant, right?
The administrators do use IP's privately to identify posters for their own purposes, such as disallowing banned posters to come back in and read their secret forums which are closed to the public.
They use IP's for their own advantage of having several aliases and to prevent those who would like to know what is going on from being able to register again. If what they are promoting in their private end time forums is God's work, why hide it from the public? People don't cover with darkness what is of God. Satan works under the cover of darkness and in secrecy, not God.
The use of aliases enables the administrators to insult and intimidate into silence the God-fearing, real Bible-believing posters without looking like they are the ones who are doing it. It is a disgustingly manipulative ploy, and very effective. What they have not yet done is change their style of writing to totally cover this up. If you watch carefully you will see how the style of a particularly rude poster (with a very masculine-sounding user name) matches the writing style of a certain administrator. Now that you know about this, don't fall for it any longer.
This is not a Christian message board run by Christian administrators, but is actually a message board run by Satan's followers who pose as Christians. They have become so arrogant that some do not even bother to try to appear authentic anymore. Some of the posters, however, are Christians and do not know what is going on exactly, but are troubled and are becoming spiritually subverted by the postings designed to erode their faith and desensitize them to the godly values taught in the Word of God. Also, many of the posters are also satanists and back up and provide a vocal majority to the ungodly and anti-Christian attitudes and agendas promoted on the forum. Some of these posters are brazen enough to mark themselves with satanic avatars and user names. Those who refrain from being this blatant surely mark themselves with the content of their posts.
Manipulation Through the "Private Messenger" System
People who post to this forum need to understand that their private message posts (PMs) are not necessarily private. Anything they write in their PMs could be read by the administrators and used against them. For example, if a poster complained about the ungodly attitude of an administrator to a fellow "poster" in a PM, he could be unknowingly writing that note to the alias of the administrator he complained about, or one of their friends. That person may find himself baited into some kind of confrontation or he may reveal his feelings of concern about the bias of the administrators, and be banned before he knows what happened to him.
No, I was not banned due to the content of my private messages. I was very careful with my PM's to this forum. I was banned because I politely but straightforwardly told one particularly brazen administrator that she was using propaganda techniques to try and sway the readers to disregard the documentation in my post and the posts of others that do not go along with the way the government wants Christians to think about the smallpox vaccine. She had no defense for her obvious actions so she banned me. The forum administrators will not permit people who work to counter their agenda to have posting privileges.
Matthew 24 was not written to the church but to the Jews/saints in the tribulation. There was no church at the time of the writting...Jesus was talking to Jews at the time and certainly not to the church. He was addressing those who come to Christ after the rapture. We do not see the "Church" mentioned from Revelation 4-18.
As for II Thessalonians 2 you are reading verse (3) as a single verse and taking it out of its context in verses 1-12. What issue is Paul addressing? He was reassuring the believers in Thessalonica they were not yet in the tribulation!
How can the Holy Spirit be removed and the church remain on earth from vs. 7?
It's a good thing you're not teaching this to a large congregation.
That was a well thought out rebutal?
Matthew 24 was not written to the church but to the Jews/saints in the tribulation. There was no church at the time of the writting...Jesus was talking to Jews at the time and certainly not to the church. He was addressing those who come to Christ after the rapture. We do not see the "Church" mentioned from Revelation 4-18.
As for II Thessalonians 2 you are reading verse (3) as a single verse and taking it out of its context in verses 1-12. What issue is Paul addressing? He was reassuring the believers in Thessalonica they were not yet in the tribulation!
How can the Holy Spirit be removed and the church remain on earth from vs. 7?
You have utterly FAILED to comprehend what I wrote. I shall pray for you, and I will try to state this again for you.
In II Thessalonians 2, Paul is writing to the church of Thessalonica because there is a bunch of crazy rumors going around. The church of Thessalonica at this time believed that the rapture had already occurred and that they were living in the tribulation. After assuring this church that the rapture has not occurred yet, he gives them a short list of two things that must happen BEFORE the rapture.
1 - There must be a falling away!
2 - The Antichrist must be revealed!
After there is a falling away and after the Antichrist is revealed, then the rapture can occur. Not before he is revealed, but AFTER! When will the true Antichrist be revealed? Well according to the prophet Daniel, the Antichrist steps onto the scene when he forces a 7 year peace treaty with Israel, and his identity is confirmed when he breaks the peace treaty 3.5 years later during the event known as the "abomination of desolation". (Daniel 9:27)
I really do hope you get it this time. Paul kept it very simple when he told us that two things must occur BEFORE the rapture. A falling away, and the revealing of who the Antichrist is. In other words the rapture can not occur before tribulation, it must be during tribulation or else Paul was wrong.
Every translation prior to the KJV translated the word apostasia as "the departed" another word for rapture and not the great apostasy or falling away as we see in modern tranlations.
Even without that understanding the context does not allow for your conclusion IMO. I do however apprecaite your prayers for me as I can use all the help I can get. I will also forgive your superior attitude... as far greater minds than ours have had reasonable differences of opinion on this very issue.
I take it you are pre-wrath? How do you account for Jesus telling us He would return as in the days of Noah, which translates to a business as ususal time? The mid tribulation period will be anything but a time of business as ususal and it certainly will not be a time when Jesus could return as a thief in the night. It will not be a surprise if the church were still here to see the anti-christ. Paul's teaching here in Thessalonians would then conflict with what Jesus taught. The rapture of the church is an imminent event. Nothing must occur before Jesus comes for His bride. It is a signless event.
I see the tribulation as a 7 year period not 3.5 or less based on my understanding of Daniel and the 70th week of Jacobs troubles that shows God will be focused on Israel and the Jews and not the church at that point.
Although no man can know the day or the hour of the rapture, I can certainly conclude that it does not occur prior to the 7 year tribulation. The truth is that most Christians want to believe in a pre-tribulation rapture because it gives them a warm fuzzy feeling. I myself could care less if the rapture occurs prior to, during or after the tribulation, simply because I know that I am in good hands and that life on this earth is very temporary. However, YHWH left us a nice BIG book full of all kinds of goodies for us to research and I enjoy doing so. It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, and a duty of kings to search it out. So here is a small sum of what the Lord left for us regarding the rapture.
1)
Matthew 24:10-12
"10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm TO THE END will be saved."
Mark 13:12
"12 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 13 Everyone will hate you because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved."
Note: Yeshua states that those of us who endure UNTIL THE END will be saved. If the rapture occurs prior to tribulation and all the crazy stuff that will happen, why must we endure until the end? Shouldn't we be watching it all from the Godly TV screen in heaven?
2)
Daniel 12:13
"13 As for you, go your way until the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days, you will rise again to receive the inheritence set aside for you."
Question: If the rapture happens prior to the tribulation, and the dead in Christ such as Daniel are resurrected, why is Daniel resurrected to receive his inheritance at the END of these days as Yeshua states in Daniel 12:13? If rapture happens prior to tribulation, and Daniel is resurrected along with everyone else, then Daniel must die shortly after the rapture so that he can be resurrected AGAIN at "the end of these days". That makes no sense because once raptured, we won't have to experience death.
3)
1 CHORINTHIANS 15:52
"52 It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the LAST trumpet is blown. For when the trumpet sounds, those who have died will be raised to live forever. And we who are living will also be transformed."
Note: Trumpets are used to usher in events in Revelation. According to this scripture, the rapture will occur at THE LAST trumpet sound! Clearly not prior to tribulation since all the other trumpets have been blown!
4)
REVELATION 16:14-16
"12 Then the sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great Euphrates River, and it dried up so that the kings from the east could march their armies toward the west without hindrance. 13 And I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs leap from the mouths of the dragon,
the beast, and the false prophet. 14 They are demonic spirits who work miracles and go out to all the rulers of the world to gather them for battle against the Lord on that great judgment day of God the Almighty. 15 “Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.” 16 And the demonic spirits gathered all the rulers and their armies to a place with the Hebrew name Armageddon."
Note: Christ mentions 3 steps in this event.
1- Demonic spirits will lure kingdoms to do battle against the Lord
2- Yeshua comes as a thief in the night! (I Thessalonians 5, Matthew 24, Mark 13 etc)
3- Armageddon occurs.
Note: Yeshua said it himself. He will come as a thief in the night sometime between the gathering of the kingdoms to do battle against the Lord, and the massacre of Armageddon.
It has come to my attention that maybe I was slandering this board. It is hard when something upsets you and you have emotion to release. Anyways I apologize to anyone I offended from RR. I am sure the mods didn't put a new Christian member into apologetics and then interrogate them. I must have misconstrued the situation.
